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the catholic church has taken out the second commanment that says we shall not make graven images or bow down to them. i have a link here to the official vatican site for the catechism, which is what the young are taught from. scroll down to where it says  ten commandments.   http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM          why would they take that out? isnt it obvious? the master of the catholic church does not want to see you be saved. he wants you on your knees in front of statues. this keeps you from asking jesus for salvation. we got some devout catholics in here defending their faith. their faith changed the commandments. this shows who is in control of that satanic religion. well, those defenders got some defending to do     

Uh, wayne, you might want to actually check your own sources before bearing false witness against your neighbor.  We use the traditional numbering that is used by say the Lutherans as well.  As Wiki's info puts it...

The passage in Exodus 20 contains more than ten imperative statements, totalling 14 or 15 in all. While the Bible itself assigns the count of "10", using the Hebrew phrase aseret had'varim—translated as the 10 words, statements or things, this phrase does not appear in Exodus 20. Various religions parse the commandments differently.

The imperative statements themselves are not actually numbered anywhere in the Bible, hence, differing religious traditions have numbered them slightly differently.  Evangelicals for example, group both "coveting they neighbor's wife, and coveting thy neighbor's property" together, which many other Christians keep separate as the 9th and 10th Commandments.  As for your charge that the Catholic Church has removed the Commandment against graven images from Scripture...from the very Catechism link that you posted...

"You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7F.HTM

Catholics do not "worship" graven images.  To do so is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church.  We don't mind you being critical of us, but please try not to simply "invent" or make up what you think we believe in and then argue against it as if we do.

This link may also be helpful to you in understanding us on this topic.  If you want to have discussion with us, you should base them on facts, not biased perceptions.

http://www.fisheaters.com/statues.html

The earliest known work of Christian art from the first century of the faith from the Catacomb of Priscilla.



The Virgin, Christ Child and the Prophet Isaiah.

Bravo desert. Exellent double talk. if you go to the site on the link and look, the second commandment about idols is gone. idols arent even mentioned in those 10 commandments. this is a vatican site. the commandment on graven images isnt in there. you can call me all the liars you want. im not the one suckered into a godless religion. yes, some catholic site have the second commandment included, but the official vatican site has removed it. go look while youre saying im bearing false witness. as always, good to hear from you

Your either being dishonest wayne or you are just not looking, I posted the link from the very site that you gave!  Here is is again for you...

Quote from: wayneCHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND
Article 1 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
I. "You Shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve"
II. "Him Only Shall You Serve"
III. "You Shall Have No Other Gods Before Me"
IV. "You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ."
IN BRIEF

That is from your link from the Vatican that you posted.  All you have to do is click on the link I highlighted and you get this...

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7F.HTM

It's right there on the very link that you posted!!!

ok desert, i went to the site you put up. it says no harm in having art. thats fine. then it give the shabby arguement about the ark of covenant. people werent allowed to get near the ark. only the priest could go in once in a while and do his thing. catholic statues are on public display for all to bow to. and concerning artwork, how many of us pray to a van gough? my favorite icon that i pray to is the Potato Eaters. hey desert, no ones blaming you for your religion. i have another site ill post;    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/hail_mary_hail_satan.htm

yes desert, its a footnote to the first. heres what is says; 2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

this says its ok to worship images. the second commandment has been replaced by another, is that not so, and the graven image commandment is a mere footnote that goes on say its ok. it give the same shabby idea that chritians worshipped the cherub figures. god had the ark made. and no one was to pray to it. most people never saw it. they used to tie a rope to the priest foot when he went into the arks room in case he had some sin in his life, because he would die upon going in the room. they could pull him out with the rope if he died. your mary statues really dont have that kind of power. they have no power. yet unsuspecting dupes huddle all around them and bow and scrape

No, it does not say that it is Ok to worship images.  That is an excommunicable offense in the Catholic Church.  "Venerate" does not mean worship!  O.K. So I guess you are admitting that you were wrong and found the "No Graven Images" on the very site that you posted.  O.K., so now I take your argument to be that clearly as "Idols" and "Idol worship" is not the same thing as the Temple art or the Ark of the Covenant, you are stating that it is OK, providing that only a few priests see it?  Where in Scripture are you coming up with that rule?  It was not simply the Ark, but the temple and Synagogues themselves that have been adorned because that is not what "idolatry" is!  Idolatry is "worshiping" a graven image or false God.  The Catholic Church prohibits that as a grave sin in violation of the Commandment.  You ask if we pray to a Van Gogh painting.  We don't pray to any painting.  That's just your biased perception.  We do not pray to a statue.  Statue's only represent the saint or Our Lady, or Christ, Jesus, for example, who we may be praying or meditating on the life of.  When you keep a treasured picture of your wife and kids in your wallet and take it out after a long trip abroad and kiss it, is it the "picture" that you love and kiss?  Of course not!  It is your wife and kids.  The picture is just a reminder of them.  It is exactly the same with stained glass, or statues or paintings in Church.

hey desert, or anyone, how do i put a picture on my post like you do?

Just click on the second button, bottom row where the "link" buttons are or bracket type [imghttp://image addy[/img] and insert the link addy for the image you want.  I can't put in the second back bracket on the first IMG or it just shows a white "X", but you can get what I mean.

its not doing anything

OK, just type [img]http://, then paste in the address of the picture that you want to display.  then type in[img] with a backslash, "/" , in front of the second "img" and it should display it.  It can only be so big or it will not let you.

[/img][/img][/img][/img]][/img][/flash][/img]its not saying how to do it

i give up. the picture is in my pictures and i dont have an adress for them. but thanks for trying to help. your a good guy

Well, you've got too many "img"'s in there.  Just look at the buttons above the bank of smiley faces.  The top row has a "B" then an italicized "I" to the right of it.  The button just below that "I" is of a picture.  Click on that one and look in your text field.  That is where you insert the image address you want to display.  

Anyway, this is from Wiki.  It's as good a deffinition as any...

In Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglo Catholic theology, veneration is a type of honor distinct from the adoration due to God alone.

Adoration, which is known as latria in classical theology, is the worship and homage that is rightly offered to God alone. It is the acknowledgement of excellence and perfection of an uncreated, divine person. It is the worship of the Creator that God alone deserves. Veneration, known as dulia in classical theology, is the honor due to the excellence of a created person.

Your picture that you want to display has to have an http://www. address I think, otherwise it will not display it.

yes desert, its just giving honor. and, i dont know the adress of my pictures. let me try again....[img][my  pictures

If it's from your pictures stored in your computer wayne, I don't think it will allow you to post it.  I think they do not allow it in order to protect content.  Only pictures that have an http: address that you find on-line can be displayed.  I gotta go for now. Peace brother.

i kinda feel bad posting this pic with the help of desertknight. my feelings for desert shouldnt get in the way of presenting what i believe to be the truth. what are these people doing?

this is another p[icture of people not praying to statues. only this guy is the head man

we are not bowing to this statue, we slipped and fell

You shouldn't feel bad wayne.  I want you to post what you believe as long as your honest about it.

...No, they are not bowing to a statue.  That statue, like any statue, is mere marble or plaster...nothing more.  The flag of the United States is mere cloth, thread and dye...nothing more, but I do not let one pass me without reverently saluting or placing my hand over my heart and coming to attention.  Why?  Is it the cloth and dye that earns my devotion?  No!  It is what it represents.  I will again state, that when you keep a picture of your wife and children with you in your wallet, and if you have ever taken it out and kissed it, you have done exactly what Catholics do when they pray in front of a statue of a saint or use stained glass art or icons to enrich the worship and understanding of the faith.  They are not required of any Catholic, but are there as a sacramental focus and as a beautiful part of our Christian history and tradition.   The Commandments of Exodus were there for the explicit prohibition of worshiping as the pagans did.  Worshiping actual objects or other false gods.  Catholics as a dogmatic absolute of our faith, solely and only worship the one, true and living God, who is Father ,Son, and Holy Spirit!  I just have one question.  Why, if the Catholic Church was wrong on this, do we have numerous examples of icons and paintings and statues, from the very first generations of Christians?  You said you have been to the Vatican.  Did you not wonder why in the Catacombs there is religious artwork everywhere?   I posted a picture of the earliest known Christian icon ever recorded in the Catacomb of Priscilla from the very first generations of Christians and it is of the Madonna and Christ child.  You will find such depictions in every Catholic church today as well as many others.  

Now you can either believe that I am lying, you can accept that I am telling you what is easy to find Catholic orthodoxy on the matter, and BTW, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, and many other Christians believe as we do, or you can be dishonest and accept that what I have told you about Catholic orthodoxy but continue to post in the future as if you were never informed of your error.

If we got it wrong, we got it wrong from the very begining...

desert, heresies crept in from the first day of christianity. yep allegence to the flag is allegence to the flag. its the symbol of a country. i see what you are getting at and you and i agree about thingsrepresenting other things. but do the children realize this? how long were you in italy? does every catholic know the statue is and abstract of the saint? can little children even spell abstract?  i take it your not just a man in the pews. and thanks for helping me with the pics. its hard for me though to find the pics on internet cause it was a yr ago when i found a bunch of real good statue pics and now i dont know where they are. but i have them in my pictures. so its not me youre convincing. how about the catholic children. my girlfriend was raised catholic and went 1 thru 12 in catholic school. this was in new jersey where they had the home grown old school italien catholics and the real deal churches. school nuns got mad at her if she questioned statue worship during catholic studies. her mother had to come down once and tell some nun where to go if she mistreated her little girl again. statues galor in churches over there. some street festival in new your where they have a mary statue on a platform that they bear on their shoulders and people toss money and flowers up on it. she told me all this. super duper pagan. she never went to catholic church again after hi school. her kids, who are now 21 and 23 have never been in a catholic church. she dowsnt even like talking abut it.

If heresies crept into the Church from the earliest times then Holy Scripture would be lying to us for Christ promised us that the "gates of Hell would never prevail against it."  He promised us that the Holy Spirit would reside within it, "until the end of time."  He told us that the Church was His Body!  People within the Church can be corrupt, but the Church and her mission cannot.  I was partly drawn to Catholicism because I can read the texts of Bishops and believers from Clement or Ignatius to Ratzinger and the beliefs are still the same.  From the centrality of the Word and Holy Eucharist, to the episcopal structure and our obedience to Christ's authority through His ministers to the nature of Grace and Salvation;  in 2,000 years it has remained the same.  The promises of Christ have been true.  Now does every Catholic know what is correct doctrine of the Church?  Well, no, no more than every Protestant does theirs.  I listen to a radio program of Calvinist Protestant theologians from time to time called "The White Horse Inn".  It's very good.  They have done radio interviews on basic theology at Evangelical and other Protestant conventions and been stunned at the number of people who don't even know the basics, but as to your specific question, yes, if any Catholic is active in the Church they would have a hard time not knowing what the Church believes and teaches.  All Catholic children are required to attend CCC if they are going to be active in the Church and they receive, all over the world, a sound basic education in Christian beliefs.  If you went into any Catholic church, anywhere in the world, and asked any frequent parishioner if, "they pray to statues", they would likely giggle and ask what religion you must be as the question would seem funny to them.  Of course they don't!  I have no idea what nun you could be referring to, but any nun that would allow any Catholic to falsely hold the idea that idolatry was OK, or that we pray to marble or plaster, would quickly be in serious trouble with her Mother Superior.  It just isn't the case.  I would not go on the basis of the example you sited.  I cannot imagine for the life of me any nun behaving as you have said.  We are not talking about some obscure theology here.  This is Catholic 101 stuff.  Any school age Catholic kid should know it.  As for me, you are wrong.  I am just a typical Catholic man in the pew.  Faithful, but no saint, that's for sure.  I am active with my parish and am as typical as can be except for the fact that I am a convert to Catholicism from a religiously indifferent Protestant family.  I was drawn to the Church from reading the New Testament over and over and reading about the basic beliefs and history of Christianity from it's roots.   As I posted on another thread, I was left with the paradox that a famous English writer was...

"Catholicism is not an opinion to which one subscribes, but a reality to which one submits."  J.R.R. Tolkien

Peace.

my friend desert, i dont believe you are of the pews. the man in the pews has no idea what the man behind the curtian s doing. another thing that is difficult to believe is that u went from protestant to cathoilic. i was raised protestant. but i went to mass every christmas eve with my neighbors because i though it was more than what my family was doing. i thought it was more holy than doing nothing. but being saved, the holy ghost tells you what is gods and what is the devils.

Well, I am wayne.  Just a simple lay Catholic, former career military, full time fisherman and goof-off now.  There is no "man behind the curtain" and there are plenty of Catholic converts like me.  I post here and on the board, "Defenders of the Catholic Faith Forum", where I'm known as "Desertfalcon".  You can see that I am the same person there as I am here.  That board was started by Protestant converts to Catholicism and has plenty of members who are way smarter than I am on this stuff.  I was just lucky that as a young man I asked the right questions and got the right answers and found Christ and have been Catholic ever since, although not always doing what I should have been to please God.   I have nothing against Protestants, I just think they are missing the fact that the Church that Christ began, that He anointed His Apostles to run, that they passed that authority on to, is alive in well in every Catholic parish.  It only has to be understood that every Christian member of it is a sinner, from Popes to parishioners and that it will never be perfect until the last days, but it has always been faithful to His Word.

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/index.php  

hey desert, i used to go to catholic church christmas eve with my friends from across the street. i thought it was good thing at the time. i was young. the rest of my family was in front of TV. to me, catholic was just another religion, but i thought it was more in line with god because of all the trappings. the methodist church my ma and grandma drug me to was sterile and boring.even after  was saved i didnt think anything about catholic church. i was hanging out with new crowd. i went to a saved gathering. some beat up place near LAX. once your born again u gather with others of the same mind. i was saved by accident, as far as i knew. its no accident. i asked him to come into me and show himself. it was at a love in , i thought. the poster said free food free music free love, so i went. 1970 it was.the change came on the bus ride home. all of a sudden everything look different.stores, billboards, ads, it all looked like useless human vanity. im tellin you. he reaches inside you and gives you a new spirit. there are 2 kinds of people. saved and unsaved.when the unsaved read the bible, it passes rite thru.  blinders are on the unsaved. its impossible for them to understand the things of the spirit. they can regurgitate the words and philosophize, like teachers of religion at colleges and things. these are generally unsaved people, theologans. ive never told anyone this, but when i got home, i ran upstairs to tell my parents about god. then i started rambling off all this stuff from out the bible and i had never cracked open one befor. but later on in life i started hearing things about catholic and other religions. that satan actally uses these groups to decieve people. dont think that i have some big beef with catholic church. i have beef with all the religions. why dont you find a quiet time and ask jesus to show himself to you. to make you over again. born again he says that in no wise will he cast you out

Quote from: wayne on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 12:37:12
the catholic church has taken out the second commanment that says we shall not make graven images or bow down to them. i have a link here to the official vatican site for the catechism, which is what the young are taught from. scroll down to where it says  ten commandments.   http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM          why would they take that out? isnt it obvious? the master of the catholic church does not want to see you be saved. he wants you on your knees in front of statues. this keeps you from asking jesus for salvation. we got some devout catholics in here defending their faith. their faith changed the commandments. this shows who is in control of that satanic religion. well, those defenders got some defending to do     

LOL, this is rediculous.

Maybe if the writer here were to actually read the catechism, he might see that this is the farthest thing from the truth.

boy, what a doozy this was.

peace, papist

STUPID is as STUPID does!!!

Unreal...

Quote from: wayne on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 12:37:12
the catholic church has taken out the second commanment............

This is an absolutely false statement. And what makes it worse is that all you have to do is glance at the Catechism to see it is false.
First, click on this link:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm]

This is a page straight out of the Catechism. Anyone who reads the Catechism can see Exodus 20 2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21 fully laid out, along with the Traditional Catechetical Formula.

The purpose of Catechesis is to "teach". What the Traditional Catechetical Formula does is teach what the commandements mean to Christians and their moral meanings. "I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me" is the essence of what you refer to as the first two commandments. Also, what you refer to as the 10th commandment actually encompasses two seperate moral issues: Sexual/Adultery and Thievery. So we divide it into two. But no matter how you slice them up, they are all there, and the scriptures are all there for all to see.

- I might add as a side note that the original authors of the scriptures never put verse numbers into their writings. That was done centuries later. So, technically, what makes up the first or tenth commandment is a matter of interpretation.

Hail Holy Queen

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our light, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we turn to thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, do not despise our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen.

A PRAYER TO OUR LADY
OF GUADALUPE

Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for the Holy Church, protect the Sovereign Pontiff, help all those who invoke thee in their necessities, and since thou art the ever Virgin Mary and Mother of God, obtain for us from thy most holy Son the grace of keeping our faith, sweet hope in the midst of the bitterness of life, burning charity and the precious gift of final perseverance. Amen.

A PRAYER TO
OUR LADY OF LOURDES

O ever immaculate Virgin, Mother of mercy, health of the sick, refuge of sinners, comfort of the afflicted, you know my wants, my troubles, my sufferings; deign to cast upon me a look of mercy. By appearing in the Grotto of Lourdes, you were pleased to make it a privileged sanctuary, whence you dispense your favors, and already many sufferers have obtained the cure of their infirmities, both spiritual and corporal. I come, therefore, with the most unbounded confidence, to implore your maternal intercession. Obtain, O loving Mother, the grant of my requests. I will endeavor to imitate your virtues, that I may one day share your glory, and bless you in eternity. Amen.

Prayer to St. Joseph
Oh, St. Joseph, whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the throne of God, I place in you all my interest and desires. Oh, St. Joseph, do assist me by your powerful intercession, and obtain for me from your divine Son all spiritual blessings, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power, I may offer my thanksgiving and homage to the most Loving of Fathers. Oh, St. Joseph, I never weary contemplating you, and Jesus asleep in your arms; I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press Him in my name and kiss His fine head for me and ask Him to return the kiss when I draw my dying breath. St. Joseph, Patron of departed souls, pray for me.

The above prayers are not to God.  Those who have bowed down before images of Mary and Joseph, are also praying to the same.  These images have been placed between the sinner and Christ, who alone can here and answer our prayers.  This defeats one of the most exact purposes of Christ becoming one of us, so that each of us may have direct access to the throne of God through His Son Jesus Christ.  Observe the following -

Exod 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

God is jealous for His relationship with us.  If He was so during the old covenant, how much more so do you think He is now, after He became one of us to be among us, to live and die for us, so that we could be all the closer to Him through His Son.  Having come to establish a personal relationship with all that desire to enter into one with Him, giving them direct access to His throne through His Son, the Church of Rome then dares to place others between God and those who He has paid an infinite price to redeem, by having their members bow down to, and pray to the dead, instead of God the Father through Jesus the Son.  For shame.

Quote from: desertknight on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 14:09:24
Uh, wayne, you might want to actually check your own sources before bearing false witness against your neighbor.  We use the traditional numbering that is used by say the Lutherans as well.  As Wiki's info puts it...

The passage in Exodus 20 contains more than ten imperative statements, totalling 14 or 15 in all. While the Bible itself assigns the count of "10", using the Hebrew phrase aseret had'varim—translated as the 10 words, statements or things, this phrase does not appear in Exodus 20. Various religions parse the commandments differently.

The imperative statements themselves are not actually numbered anywhere in the Bible, hence, differing religious traditions have numbered them slightly differently.  Evangelicals for example, group both "coveting they neighbor's wife, and coveting thy neighbor's property" together, which many other Christians keep separate as the 9th and 10th Commandments.  As for your charge that the Catholic Church has removed the Commandment against graven images from Scripture...from the very Catechism link that you posted...

"You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7F.HTM

Catholics do not "worship" graven images.  To do so is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church.  We don't mind you being critical of us, but please try not to simply "invent" or make up what you think we believe in and then argue against it as if we do.

This link may also be helpful to you in understanding us on this topic.  If you want to have discussion with us, you should base them on facts, not biased perceptions.

http://www.fisheaters.com/statues.html

The earliest known work of Christian art from the first century of the faith from the Catacomb of Priscilla.



The Virgin, Christ Child and the Prophet Isaiah.

What do you call it then if not worship?
Catholics bow to mary and repeat "Hail Mary" in many prayers.
If that is NOT worship...Then I do not know what is

These are Some Evangelical Christian Protest-ants Worshipping a Statue cutout of War Monger and Traitor George Bush...video from the movie Jesus Camp about Evangelicals



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86LzKSsuB2w&feature=related 

Pot, Kettle, Black?

The Hail Mary Prayer comes almost exclusively FROM SCRIPTURE!

Catholics No where in the Liturgy Pray to Mary or recite the Hail Mary Prayer, however.
It is done sometimes before or after Mass. It is not part of the Liturgy.

The Bible says Mary was 'Blessed and Full of Grace' and that the Lord was With Thee'

Catholics ask Mary to pray FOR Us, the same way Protest-Ants ask opthers to Pray For them.