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I wanted to post this in the hopes of providing some good information to those who are interested in the truth of both Catholic and Orthodox traditions of icons and artwork in our Christian history and worship.  As there are few Eastern Orthodox here to defend some of the attacks made in some threads using pictures and icons of their Christian traditions, I will also try and use E.O. sources to describe for people what the tradition and practice of veneration of icons is and how it is acceptable in general to the wider Catholic Church.

First, lets look at some of the earliest examples of Christian artwork still in existence.  Here are a couple of wall paintings that date from the early AD100's in the Catacomb of Priscilla.  This was executed by the very first generation of Christians in Rome.  Two of the examples that survive are of Our Lady, (Mary), and the Christ child...



...and of either a Presbyter in prayer, called an orante pose, or it could be a depiction of our Lord in prayer in the same orante tradition.  Note the comparison with today in the second pic;  Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition inform and keep the faith with us.  2 Thess 2:15  "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."






From an Eastern Orthodox site.  (It works for us Catholics as well.).

1. What is an Icon?

An Icon is an image (usually two dimensional) of Christ, the Saints, Angels, important Biblical events, parables, or events in the history of the Church.

St. Gregory the Dialogist (Pope of Rome ca. 590-604), spoke of Icons as being Scripture to the illiterate:

"For what writing presents to readers, this a picture presents to the unlearned who behold, since in it even the ignorant see what they ought to follow; in it the illiterate read" (Epistle to Bishop Serenus of Marseilles, NPNF 2, Vol. XIII, p. 53).

Remember, literacy was limited after the fall of the Western Empire and was non-existent to those early pagans who were being converted.  To those who would suggest that this is no longer relevant in our enlightened age, let them consider the rather large functional illiteracy rate we have, and the fact that even the most literate societies always have a sizable illiterate segment... their young children.

2. Do Orthodox Christians pray to Icons?

Christians pray in the presence of Icons (just as Israelites prayed in the presence of Icons in the Temple), but we do not pray to the image.

3. Do Orthodox Christians Worship Icons?   What's the difference between "worship" and "veneration"?

Orthodox Christians do not worship Icons.  Orthodox Christians do venerate Icons, which is to say, we pay respect to them because they are holy objects, and because we reverence what the Icons depict.  We do not worship Icons any more than Americans worship the American flag.  Saluting the flag is not exactly the same type of veneration as we pay to Icons, but it is indeed a type of veneration.  And just as we do not venerate wood and paint, but rather the persons depicted in the Icon, patriotic Americans do not venerate cloth and dye, but rather the country which the flag represents.

4. Doesn't the 2nd Commandment forbid Icons?

The issue with respect to the 2nd commandment is what does the word translated "graven images" mean? If it simply means carved images, then the images in the temple would be in violation of this Commandment.  Indeed, any Protestant cross would fall under such definition.  Our best guide, however, to what Hebrew words mean, is what they meant to Hebrews—and when the Hebrews translated the Bible into Greek, they translated this word simply as "eidoloi", i.e. "idols." Furthermore the Hebrew word pesel is never used in reference to any of the images in the temple. So clearly the reference here is to pagan images rather than images in general.

Let's look at the Scriptural passage in question more closely:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (i.e. idol), or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor shalt thou serve (worship) them..." (Exodus 20:4-5a).

Now, if we take this as a reference to images of any kind, then clearly the cherubim in the Temple violate this command.  If we limit this as applying only to idols, no contradiction exists.  Furthermore, if this applies to all images—then even the picture on a driver's license violates it, and is an idol.  So either every Protestant with a driver's license is an idolater, or Icons are not idols.

5.  How do we know the early Christians accepted icons?

Not only does one find Iconography throughout Christian Catacombs, but they are also found in Jewish catacombs of the same period.  We also have the well preserved Jewish Icons of Dura-Europos, which were in a city destroyed by the Persians in the mid 3rd century (which of course puts a limit on how recent these Icons could have been made).

There are plenty of points that Protestants and Catholics/Orthodox can differ on within the Christian faith, but those arguments should be based on the truth of what our traditions teach and believe and not on what others falsely claim them to be.

Peace, Knight.

Well, like I said - growing up with Slavic relatives - they made it perfectly clear that a statue was just a statue ---even as a child I knew there was a higher power and that was the focus.

It was sweet to have pictures (everywhere) and all to remind me of God, but there was no power given to a statue in my Czech 'from the Old Country' relatives' homes.

But I understand from the outside looking in - it sure does seem it.

BTW, the above post is EXCELLENT. :)

I was born to a Catholic family, I was christened, first communion doily on my head patent leather shoes etc., I was confirmed...

As an adult, I came to some different understandings of what I needed to do to draw closer to God, to please God, to worship Him and follow Him and so on.  I was immersed into Christ in 1983 and usually worship with a Restoration-tradition church.

Am I Catholic?  Was I Catholic?  Am I an unfaithful Catholic?

Anyway, with that background, I have never had a problem understanding that a statue or painting was a focal point, not the source of any power.

Also, my combination background lets me see clearly that Church of Christ folk can make an item to be worshiped out of many things that are not religious artifacts.  Things become sacrosanct and untouchable and unchangeable, to the point that congregations have split over facilities and trappings and timing and tools.

With my... current background, you might say, I see icons and the like as focal points that lead people to pray to entities besides the Triune God.

So... my interest in someone's defense of uses of religious icons is, exactly whom are you praying to?  Who do you think has the power to grant your prayer?

I have no problem with devotional art.  I do feel people key off it to do useless things, sometimes.

I had forgotten about this thread - how opportune since I just came from a site that is trying to convince me that if I pray to Jesus's family  (Joseph and Mary)- ones that He loves I will get closer to God rather than on my own steam...with a suggestion to read a devotional book on Mary.

Now, if the Holy Spirit is right here - why would I go to someone who isn't to pray to Someone Who Is?

Somehow I'm understanding more the head space they have. Talking to family members that have been "here" and understand the hardships - they can then go directly to God on our behalf.   Well, that was directly said.

I understand going to Mom to ask for the car keys in Dad's pocket, and all ... but in the realm of Spirit - why would I?

But, I don't have any qualms --if they want to go about it that way - I don't care.

It makes me think maybe they don't experience the Holy Spirit?   I don't know... Like they don't know that God is...... right there ... yohoo...like He's right here. Am I off base? I don't think so --I was Catholic ---  but so many years ago.

Anyway - different strokes for different folks.

Exod 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

There is no mention at all concerning what this or that image may represent in the above commandment.  You shall not bow down to any image of anything.  It is not within humanities grasp, to picture God.  All attempts to do so, or to associate God with anything in the imagination of humanity, always and only can, and will, belittle the same.  To do so, is a sin against God.

The entire world, and everyone in it who will not be miraculously preserved by God Himself when he returns, will be destroyed by His literal presence, and the overwhelming brightness of the same.  God's very presence unveiled, will either change those present into His image, or destroy the same.  Will you make an image of this and bow down to the same, I think not.  Will you make an image of anything or anybody that can rightly represent that which is beyond our ability to comprehend, and bow down to the same, without belittling the same, I think not.  Thus the commandment. 

It is an insult to God to try to reach, or comprehend, or imagine, or associate Him with anything other than the one, the true, the only Mediator, God, Lord, and Savior Jesus Christ.  The personification of God was allowed in Christ alone.  Any and all attempts to reach or communicate with God the Father through anything or anybody apart from Christ, are verily Antichrist.  God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.  He has chosen to be approached through Christ alone.  All else, save that which be done in abject ignorance, is an insult to God, and therefore a grievous sin against the same.

The purpose of the second commandment is to prevent humanity from debasing God by trying to fit Him within our grasp.  This should not be done above or apart from that which God has chosen to reveal through His holy word, or His Son Jesus Christ, who is Himself the Word, or expression of God in human flesh, if you will.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.......................................
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

I Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Yes, yes, yes, fine, fine, fine.  The Bible is clear that God and God alone is God.

How does what you're saying translate on the ground, in the trenches?

How does that supremacy and holiness and in-imitableness of God get messed with, when you use a memory-aid or devotional focus for your prayer or praise or worship time?  Whether it's a hymnal or a dimly lit room or a hard polished (or even splintery) church pew, or a string of beads to kelp you keep track of time and intentions, or a picture of some beloved family member or even a long-ago lover of God who has gone on before you?

Is the problem making a "graven image" or is the problem worshiping and expecting power and help from that which is not Divine?

If the problem in the image, then we need to burn all the kids' school pictures and that old portrait of Grandpa in his WWII military uniform.

And Lord help us if there's a TV in the house.  Or, even worse, a computer.  That's setting sound and motion into multiple "graven images".

Quote from: AmoThere is no mention at all concerning what this or that image may represent in the above commandment.  You shall not bow down to any image of anything.

Oh, but it says much more than this my friend.  It says, Thou shalt not make unto thee...any image, any likeness.  You seem to want the Bible to say the prohibition is only to things you "bow down" to, which, BTW, we do not do, (We don't "bow" to plaster or paint, we kneel, not bow, to pray.), but your editing scripture to fit your own wishes.  That's not what the Commandment says.  Now if not, I am assuming that you now would like to smash all art museums, photo-shops, family albums.  No?  
Do you have an family pictures?  If you do, then you are violating the commandment.  If you say, "That's not what it really means!"  Your right.  It doesn't, but that is irrelevant to your point. Your point is that it must be interpreted in the strict literal sense, well, then welcome to the world of the Pharisees.  That is called Judaizing.  As much as you would like it to be the case and no matter how many times we may state it and prove it authoritatively, we Catholics and Orthodox, only worship God.  Nothing else.  That is why, just like you, we know what God meant by the commandment against idols and we have the magisterium of the Holy Spirit to guide us.  What you want to do is say, "Hey I just want my standard to apply this far in interpreting Scripture, but not that far, cause' that far, puts me in the same boat, but makes me a hypocrite."  In for a penny, in for a pound.  You can't have it both ways.

Exod 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Take the commandment as the whole commandment it is.  There is no sin in simply making an image.  The sin is in bowing down to that image in connection with worshipping the true God.  Nothing coming from fallen humanity can rightly represent God.  You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the commandment of God.

No, I and about 1 billion 350,000,000 million Christians are arguing with your interpretation of that Commandment, not God's Commandment.  If the Commandment was believed as you interpret it, even by the earliest Christians, then why do we have examples of depictions of Mary and the Christ child dating from the very first generation of Christians in Rome?  Why did Christian art begin in the Catacombs?  Now what you stated...

Quote from: AmoTake the commandment as the whole commandment it is.

...is exactly correct, and also, I might add, exactly how the Catholic and Orthodox interpret it.  Now you say, "Oh, but it says 'bow down'," well, it does, but there is no getting around that you have taken upon yourself the right to "edit out" the "Thou shall not make any..., right on out of the Commandment.  No matter how you argue around it, the Commandment clearly states not make any, plain as day.  You say, "There is no sin in just making an image."  Oh contraire, that is very specifically a sin that is forbidden by that Commandment.  It is stated clearly.  Now I state this to prove my point.  God wants us to be faithful, but he doesn't want us to be stupid.  We have common sense.  For 2,000 years the majority of Christians have understood that honoring an image of our Lord, His blessed mother, or a saint, is not worshiping false gods.  They are to illuminate and understand better the "Word" of the one true God, our Father in heaven.  Your argument is one of personal taste and "feeling".  I have already proven conclusively that it is not based on adherence to the literal interpretation of the Scripture.

Why will you twist and mutilate the word of God?  You only wish to establish half of the second commandment of God as a commandment unto itself, so that you can have an excuse to trash the whole commandment.  Do you not understand the subtle form of insubordination toward God that you are promoting?  Your intention seems to be, to make God Himself appear so unreasonable that we must ignore His commands.  This is not from above, but most certainly from below.  Observe the following.

Deut 4:9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. 11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. 13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. 15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, 18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: 19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

The sin is not in making an image.  It is in trying to make an image that can be bowed down to and connected to the worship of God by way of representation of the same.  This is paganism.  It is what all the pagan religions did, and do.  Our God is beyond being worshipfully represented by any image of anything He has created.  Doing so can only and ever dwarf ones concept of God and His unfathomable greatness in comparison to all created things.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Corruption is the result of connecting images of any created thing to reverential worship of our almighty and unfathomable God.  Thus the commandment and warning of scriptures regarding the same.

Exod 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Deut 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Judg 2:19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.

Josh 23:7 That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, or bow yourselves unto them:

There is nothing new under the sun.  Israel also did, that which many who call themselves Christians today do.  While they claimed to worship the true God, they also bowed down to and worshipped the god's of their own choosing.

II Ki 17:32 So they feared the LORD, and made unto themselves of the lowest of them priests of the high places, which sacrificed for them in the houses of the high places. 33 They feared the LORD, and served their own gods, after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence. 34 Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not the LORD, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel; 35 With whom the LORD had made a covenant, and charged them, saying, Ye shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them: 36 But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice. 37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods. 38 And the covenant that I have made with you ye shall not forget; neither shall ye fear other gods. 39 But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies. 40 Howbeit they did not hearken, but they did after their former manner. 41 So these nations feared the LORD, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children's children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this day.

I will close with the following by J. A. Wylie.

"Popery, then, we hold to be an after-growth of Paganism,........................... Its oracles had been silenced, its shrines demolished, and its gods consigned to oblivion; but the deep corruption of the human race, not yet cured by the promised effusion of the Spirit upon all flesh, revived it anew, and, under a Christian mask, reared other temples in its honour, built it another Pantheon, and replenished it with other gods, which, in fact, were but the ancient divinities under new names. All idolatries, in whatever age or country they have existed, are to be viewed but as successive developments of the one grand apostacy. That apostacy was commenced in Eden, and consummated at Rome. It had its rise in the plucking of the forbidden fruit; and it attained its acme in the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome,--Christ's Vicar on earth. The hope that he would "be as God," led man to commit the first sin; and that sin was perfected when the Pope "exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Popery is but the natural development of this great original transgression. It is just the early idolatries ripened and perfected. It is manifestly an enormous expansion of the same intensely malignant and fearfully destructive principle which these idolatries contained. The ancient Chaldean worshipping the sun,--the Greek deifying the powers of nature,--and the Roman exalting the race of primeval men into gods, are but varied manifestations of the same evil principle, namely, the utter alienation of the heart from God,--its proneness to hide itself amid the darkness of its own corrupt imaginations, and to become a god unto itself. That principle received the most fearful development which appears possible on earth, in the Mystery of Iniquity which came to be seated on the Seven Hills; for therein man deified himself, became God, nay, arrogated powers which lifted him high above God. Popery is the last, the most matured, the most subtle, the most skilfully contriven, and the most essentially diabolical form of idolatry which the world ever saw, or which, there is reason to believe, it ever will see. It is the ne plus ultra of man's wickedness, and the chef d'oeuvre of Satan's cunning and malignity. It is the greatest calamity, next to the Fall, which ever befell the human family. Farther away from God the world could not exist at all. The cement that holds society together, already greatly weakened, would be altogether destroyed, and the social fabric would instantly fall in ruins.

Quote from: janine on Sun Jul 26, 2009 - 13:22:52
Yes, yes, yes, fine, fine, fine.  The Bible is clear that God and God alone is God.

How does what you're saying translate on the ground, in the trenches?

How does that supremacy and holiness and in-imitableness of God get messed with, when you use a memory-aid or devotional focus for your prayer or praise or worship time?  Whether it's a hymnal or a dimly lit room or a hard polished (or even splintery) church pew, or a string of beads to kelp you keep track of time and intentions, or a picture of some beloved family member or even a long-ago lover of God who has gone on before you?

Is the problem making a "graven image" or is the problem worshiping and expecting power and help from that which is not Divine?

If the problem in the image, then we need to burn all the kids' school pictures and that old portrait of Grandpa in his WWII military uniform.

And Lord help us if there's a TV in the house.  Or, even worse, a computer.  That's setting sound and motion into multiple "graven images".

janine said:  Is the problem making a "graven image" or is the problem worshiping and expecting power and help from that which is not Divine?

David said:  The problem with "graven images" is that we as humans are very visual and tend to idolize what we see.  By doing this we are limiting God to a human perception.  And of course that perception is limited and bias.  I believe that God knew what He was saying when He made this commandment.  God bless.

Quote from: AmoWhy will you twist and mutilate the word of God?  You only wish to establish half of the second commandment of God as a commandment unto itself...

BINGO!!! You got it Amo!  You have in this one sentence, summed up the exact position of the Catholic and Orthodox positions.  This statement of yours could be that of any good Catholic/Orthodox writing to a Protestant critic on this issue.  This is the exact position of all those early Christians, creating beautiful works of art in the Catacombs.  The Commandment is about "worshiping" idols and false gods.  We Catholics and Orthodox do not in any way, shape or form, "worship" idols or false gods.  We worship only the one, true, God of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  Kneeling in prayer or meditation in front of a depiction of a Saint or the Blessed Mother, etc., is not worshiping an idol.  It is not "bowing down".  It is not worshiping a false god.  You have made our point exactly.  

QuoteBINGO!!! You got it Amo!  You have in this one sentence, summed up the exact position of the Catholic and Orthodox positions.  This is the exact position of all those early Christians, creating beautiful works of art in the Catacombs.  The Commandment is about "worshiping" idols and false gods.  We Catholics and Orthodox do not in any way, shape or form, "worship" idols or false gods.  We worship only the one, true, God of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  Kneeling in prayer or meditation in front of a depiction of a Saint or the Blessed Mother, etc., is not worshiping an idol.  It is not "bowing down".  It is not worshiping a false god.  You have made our point exactly. 

I'll give you this much desertknight, your pretty good at taking half of what someone says, and making it say what you want it to.

No, I've just become used to dealing with those that "invent" what they want Catholic doctrine to be, then argue against it as if it is, and avoid the actual beliefs and teachings of the Catholic Church.  We are either Judaizers, or we are true Christians.  Your statement is absolutely correct.  We either adhere to every jot and tittle of the Old Covenant Law or we ask ourselves what God really commands and wants.  The Commandment against idols is exactly as you say.  It cannot be taken out of context.  Worshiping any thing or any false god is a mortal sin in both the Catholic/Orthodox traditions.  Sometimes we get the strong impression that there are those that do not wish that to be the case because it takes away an argument.  You want idolotry?  Money, property, cars, food, fame, sex, drugs...those are idols today that are worshiped by tens of millions of people around the world, especially in America and the other wealthy countries.   A beautiful work of art of the example of a saint or of the blessed mother of Christ, is not. 

QuoteNo, I've just become used to dealing with those that "invent" what they want Catholic doctrine to be, then argue against it as if it is, and avoid the actual beliefs and teachings of the Catholic Church.  We are either Judaizers, or we are true Christians.  Your statement is absolutely correct.  We either adhere to every jot and tittle of the Old Covenant Law or we ask ourselves what God really commands and wants.  The Commandment against idols is exactly as you say.  It cannot be taken out of context.  Worshiping any thing or any false god is a mortal sin in both the Catholic/Orthodox traditions.  Sometimes we get the strong impression that there are those that do not wish that to be the case because it takes away an argument.  You want idolotry?  Money, property, cars, food, fame, sex, drugs...those are idols today that are worshiped by tens of millions of people around the world, especially in America and the other wealthy countries.   A beautiful work of art of the example of a saint or of the blessed mother of Christ, is not. 

You are absolutely correct about money, property, cars, food, fame, sex, and drugs.  A beautiful work of art is just that, a beautiful work of art.  However, when you bend the knee before it to pray, you make it something more.  Something God has forbidden.  We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.  I believe we would have the same problem regarding the fourth commandment,  you would say the day no longer matters, I would say it does. 

If you bow down to something in prayer, you are certainly being worshipful toward it.

You can also feel and act worshipful toward things, places, people, concepts... church treasuries, the new carpet in the sanctuary, the good opinion of powerful church groups... your own power, place, authority...

We need to be clean, just us,  standing before the Lord.  We need to remember we're naked in God's eyes.




(eta more nudity)

Religious traditions have got to be able to tell you what they believe, not the other way around.  Bending a knee in prayer in front of a statue of a saint may be more than admiring a piece of art, but it is not worship.  I salute and have bent my knee and kissed the hem of the American flag.  I do not worship it, I revere it.  As with an icon of Our Lady, I honor her, but I do not worship her, I assure you.  I worship only God.  To not let people tell you this in honesty.  To reject what they say as truth, is to disrespect them and their religious beliefs.  I don't mind honest disagreements with other Christians when it comes to legitimate issues, but when Catholics and Orthodox tell you , "We do not worship false gods."  "We do not bow down to the idols of false gods.", and as there is clear evidence in abundance that Christians have been creating and praying in front of religious art from the very first generation of Christians, and it has been done for 2,000 years by the vast majority of Christians around the world, it is up to those who disagree to prove their case.  That they can't without saying, "No matter what those Catholics and Orthodox tell you, don't believe them, cause' it isn't true.", is telling as to the strength of their argument.



St. Peter Striking a Rock for Water.  St. Callixtus Catacombs

QuoteReligious traditions have got to be able to tell you what they believe, not the other way around.  Bending a knee in prayer in front of a statue of a saint may be more than admiring a piece of art, but it is not worship.  I salute and have bent my knee and kissed the hem of the American flag.  I do not worship it, I revere it.  As with an icon of Our Lady, I honor her, but I do not worship her, I assure you.  I worship only God.  To not let people tell you this in honesty.  To reject what they say as truth, is to disrespect them and their religious beliefs.  I don't mind honest disagreements with other Christians when it comes to legitimate issues, but when Catholics and Orthodox tell you , "We do not worship false gods."  "We do not bow down to the idols of false gods.", and as there is clear evidence in abundance that Christians have been creating and praying in front of religious art from the very first generation of Christians, and it has been done for 2,000 years by the vast majority of Christians around the world, it is up to those who disagree to prove their case.  That they can't without saying, "No matter what those Catholics and Orthodox tell you, don't believe them, cause' it isn't true.", is telling as to the strength of their argument.

In light of the above statement desertknight, could you please explain the following Catholic prayers to me?

Hail Holy Queen

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our light, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we turn to thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, do not despise our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen.

A PRAYER TO OUR LADY
OF GUADALUPE

Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for the Holy Church, protect the Sovereign Pontiff, help all those who invoke thee in their necessities, and since thou art the ever Virgin Mary and Mother of God, obtain for us from thy most holy Son the grace of keeping our faith, sweet hope in the midst of the bitterness of life, burning charity and the precious gift of final perseverance. Amen.

A PRAYER TO
OUR LADY OF LOURDES

O ever immaculate Virgin, Mother of mercy, health of the sick, refuge of sinners, comfort of the afflicted, you know my wants, my troubles, my sufferings; deign to cast upon me a look of mercy. By appearing in the Grotto of Lourdes, you were pleased to make it a privileged sanctuary, whence you dispense your favors, and already many sufferers have obtained the cure of their infirmities, both spiritual and corporal. I come, therefore, with the most unbounded confidence, to implore your maternal intercession. Obtain, O loving Mother, the grant of my requests. I will endeavor to imitate your virtues, that I may one day share your glory, and bless you in eternity. Amen.

Prayer to St. Joseph
Oh, St. Joseph, whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the throne of God, I place in you all my interest and desires. Oh, St. Joseph, do assist me by your powerful intercession, and obtain for me from your divine Son all spiritual blessings, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power, I may offer my thanksgiving and homage to the most Loving of Fathers. Oh, St. Joseph, I never weary contemplating you, and Jesus asleep in your arms; I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press Him in my name and kiss His fine head for me and ask Him to return the kiss when I draw my dying breath. St. Joseph, Patron of departed souls, pray for me.


It is not my intention to offend desertknight, but only to arrive at the truth.

What is the truth that you are seeking Amo?

The problem I have with the concept is that the Roman Church refers to the worship of Deity as "latria," taken from the Greek word latreia (Strong 2999), while it refers to the word "dulia", taken from douleia (1397) when describing the veneration of saints, icons, and, of course, Mary.  Of course, the challenge of using Biblical words to describe spiritual activities is that you have to accept their Biblical meanings.

If you use any standard concordance or lexicon, you would probably not have much problem discovering that  latreia and its verb form latreuo, (3000) are commonly used in referring to the worship, or serving, of God.

However douleia might be a different matter...

The noun form is only used five times in scripture, Romans 8:15, 21, Gal 4:24 & 5:1, and Heb 2:15, and in each case it is translated "bondage."

Strong's lexicon defines the verb form douleuo (1398) as meaning "to be a slave to (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary)" and is never translated to simply mean a simple "adoration" or "appreciation,", or even "reverence" but usually "to serve." And often to serve either God or Christ.

For example, in Romans 12:11, we are directed to "Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord." [NIV, throughout]

In Col 3:23-24, we are reminded "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving."

Paul, in praising the Thessalonians, wrote in the first chapter of his first letter,

Quote⁸The Lord's message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, ⁹for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, ¹⁰and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Which brings up an interesting point: these words did not only apply to the Godhead, lest I seem to blow the Church's argument completely our of the water.

It is reported in both Matthew 6:24, and Luke 16:13, that our Lord said

QuoteNo servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Similarly, Paul warned the Galatians (4:8-9)

QuoteFormerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?

And the Romans were warned (chapter 16)

Quote¹⁷I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. ¹⁸For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites.

You can do a word search as easily as me for the rest of the applications of the words, but the bottomline is that the scriptures say that if anyone is applying "dulia" towards anyone or anything except God, he or she is treading on thin ice, whatever their church's doctrine might claim.

norm, I would say that the answer to the point you raise is in the information you provide.  You are taking the root meaning of a word, dulia, and applying it equally to every circumstance.  Second, although you may often hear the word expressed in the Greek language, the language of the Church is Latin, not Greek.  

Let me give you an example to illustrate what I'm saying.  Dulia, does, as you say, mean, "to be a slave to", in Greek.  It's English translation is "serve".  Now you can say, "I serve my master", and sure enough, it gets that meaning across, but if I say, "Let me serve you a helping of mashed potatoes", it really changes what I'm saying.  I'm just giving you spuds.  I'm not your "bond-servant" in doing so.  In Latin, "veneratio", which is the actual word the Church uses to describe the veneration of saints, only has one other English translation, to "honor", which is awkward as it is both a noun and a verb, but it is the one that fits.  We use the origional Latin word in English without difficulty, however.  If you say I venerate the grave of my father, every educated person knows that you are not "worshiping" your father as a god, but merely paying the honor due to him.

Amo, I will be happy to answer any questions you have, as best I can, on the Catholic doctrine of the communion of saints or prayers to the saints, if you will start another thread on it.  I think it is a different topic that deserves one.

Greg.

Quote from: desertknight on Tue Jul 28, 2009 - 11:20:06
norm, I would say that the answer to the point you raise is in the information you provide.  You are taking the root meaning of a word, dulia, and applying it equally to every circumstance.  Second, although you may often hear the word expressed in the Greek language, the language of the Church is Latin, not Greek. 

I know that the language of the Church is Latin, yet they seemed to have chosen the Greek terms to explain their doctrine;  perhaps they have a backup plan that on Judgement Day, they can blame their Orthodox brethren if it turns out badly.

QuoteLet me give you an example to illustrate what I'm saying.  Dulia, does, as you say, mean, "to be a slave to", in Greek.  It's English translation is "serve".  Now you can say, "I serve my master", and sure enough, it gets that meaning across, but if I say, "Let me serve you a helping of mashed potatoes", it really changes what I'm saying.  I'm just giving you spuds.  I'm not your "bond-servant" in doing so.  In Latin, "veneratio", which is the actual word the Church uses to describe the veneration of saints, only has one other English translation, to "honor", which is awkward as it is both a noun and a verb, but it is the one that fits.  We use the origional Latin word in English without difficulty, however.  If you say I venerate the grave of my father, every educated person knows that you are not "worshiping" your father as a god, but merely paying the honor due to him.

You can twist the English word "serve" all the way to the tennis court, but the Greek term dulia can hardly be twisted to mean anything near "honor", which, in Greek, would probably be time (5092).

What makes this interesting, in the decree issued by the Second Council of Nicea, which started this whole ball rolling, they used another Greek word to describe veneration, proskuneo(4352).  (Apparently they hadn't heard that the official language of the Church was Latin.)

Anyway, Strong defines the word as "to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore)'", and the word usually means "worship" in the English Bibles.

I could go through another laundry list of all the times it is used, but there is a pair of passages that are most interesting.

In Matt 4:10 and Luke 4:8, Jesus pretty much equates the two terms, and citing the

QuoteJesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship [proskuneo] the Lord your God, and serve [latreuo] him only.'"

Now it may be argued that our Lord misquoted the passage in Deut. 6:13, because the "inspired" writers of the Septuagint used another word, phobeomai , which means "fear" in that passage instead; but not by me.

Instead I would quote a similar passage found in Exodus 20 of the Septuagint, which again equates "veneration" with "worship" and limits its use of each:

Quote⁴ "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. ⁵ You shall not bow down[proskuneo] to them or worship [latreuo] them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, ⁶ but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Quote from: normI know that the language of the Church is Latin, yet they seemed to have chosen the Greek terms to explain their doctrine;  perhaps they have a backup plan that on Judgement Day, they can blame their Orthodox brethren if it turns out badly.

The Greek is perfectly acceptable as long as you let the Church define it's own doctrines.  Let's use the very source that you linked...

From New Advent:  Dulia-(Greek doulia; Latin servitus), a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone.

...case closed, or are you one of those who will tell us what we really believe, and then argue against it as if it's true?

Quote from: normYou can twist the English word "serve" all the way to the tennis court, but the Greek term dulia can hardly be twisted to mean anything near "honor", which, in Greek, would probably be time.

From Wiki:  In Christianity, veneration (Latin veneratio, Greek δουλια dulia), or veneration of saints, is a special act of honoring a saint: a dead person who has been identified as singular in the traditions of the religion.

I twisted nothing.  To "serve", is the very translation that you pointed out, not me.  I am simply giving the example that many words have roots that do not encompass their full meaning, just as "serving you potatoes" is not making me your "slave".  Your trying to make an argument where there isn't one.

QuoteWhat makes this interesting, in the decree issued by the Second Council of Nicaea, which started this whole ball rolling, they used another Greek word to describe veneration, proskuneo(4352).  (Apparently they hadn't heard that the official language of the Church was Latin.)

Uh, that's because it wasn't just Latin in AD787, it was both Latin and Greek.  And what did this great Council say concerning this issue?  Well, lets look at the very link that you posted...

Second Council of Nicaea:  We salute the venerable images.  We place under anathema those who do not do this.  Anathema to them who presume to apply to the venerable images the things said in Holy Scripture about idols.  Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.  Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.  Anathema to those who say that Christians resort to the sacred images as to gods.  Anathema to those who say that any other delivered us from idols except Christ our God.  Anathema to those who dare to say that at any time the Catholic Church received idols.

...again, case closed.

QuoteAnyway, Strong defines the word, proskuneo, as "to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore)'", and the word usually means "worship" in the English Bibles.

It also means "to kiss", "to kiss the hand of", "to honor", or "to venerate", to "express respect".  From a nice Evangelical Protestant website...

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4352

I know you would like to simply define the word to have only one meaning, but it does not.  Am I the first person to tell you that many different words in pretty much, every single language on earth, has more than one meaning?  Look up just about any word in Websters and you will find several different meanings.  The Council of Nicaea is the source you used.  Did you use it and not bother to read what the Reverend Fathers had to say about this issue?  They are very clear as to the distinction the Church makes on "worship" vs. to "venerate" or "to honor".  What you and others want to say is, "I know that, but I want to argue on the basis of how I define for them, what they believe."

Are Catholics forbidden from praying the Catholic prayers I posted earlier, while they are kneeling before statues of Mary or Joseph?  If they kneel before them, and then pray to them, then they are kneeling before, and praying to a representation of a created being, and not God.  Is this not idol worship?  Is this not what Paul was referring to in the following verses?

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Quote from: AmoIs this not idol worship?

No, and for a couple of different reasons.  1.  It is not "worship".  If I ask you to pray for me, or to pray for a sick relative, I am not "worshipping" you.  If you read the prayers you posted, in everyone of them, we are asking the blessed mother of our Lord or another saint as example, for their intersession in prayer for us.  2.  As with our earlier discussion in this thread, the Commandment against any graven images, or any likeness of anything, either applies only to those things being "worshiped" as a false god, or it applies to the pictures in your wallet, the cross in any protestant church, the art in a museum, etc.   If the Commandment is a prohibition against worshiping anything but God our Father, then you should have no argument with us.  As I've stated many times now, not only is "worshiping" anything or anyone other than the Lord our God not Catholic/Orthodox doctrine, it is a mortal sin to do so.

Revelation 5:8  "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

Quote from: AmoIs this not what Paul was referring to in the following verses?

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

No, because we are not changing the image of a incorruptible God into an image made like to a corruptible man.  This is an excellent example of how veneration of a saint is not idolatry.  Paul is giving us an accurate description.  Idolatry is worshiping something or someone as a god.  We in no, way, shape, or form, do that.  We are venerating, honoring, those who very often were martyred in their faith of God.  We are venerating or honoring the Mother of the incarnation of God.  That is clearly not replacing God, which is Paul's warning.  Do we worship the creature more than the Creator?  Absolutely not!  We do not worship anything created.  We worship only God.  We honor his special saints and the most special of saints that he chose, the blessed mother of my King, Jesus Christ.

Quote from: desertknight on Tue Jul 28, 2009 - 16:39:16
Well, lets look at the very link that you posted...

Second Council of Nicaea:  We salute the venerable images.  We place under anathema those who do not do this.  Anathema to them who presume to apply to the venerable images the things said in Holy Scripture about idols.  Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.  Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.  Anathema to those who say that Christians resort to the sacred images as to gods.  Anathema to those who say that any other delivered us from idols except Christ our God.  Anathema to those who dare to say that at any time the Catholic Church received idols.

...again, case closed.

Yes, case closed.

I have shared what the scripture says about, to use the ecclesiastical terms, "veneration" and "worship", and you would rather stand by the doctrines of committees.

I gladly receive the curses of such committees than that of the Holy Writ.

[At least this round has been rather civil.  Previous discussions had ended, at least for me, by me being branded an "iconoclast", a label I rather like, with a strong implication that I was in league with Islamic terrorists, which I thought was uncalled for... ]

Yes, case closed, norm.  Those "committees" are what illuminates what the Church believes in.  Before being too dismissive of them, you might keep in mind they defined things such as the doctrine of the Trinity and compiled the Bible as well.  I'm sorry that you do not like the fact that there is a difference between "veneration" and "worship" or that certain words can mean different things in different contexts, but that is the nature of language.  For what it's worth, I think you err in using the Bible as a dictionary.  Words like dulia or proskuneo are not ecclesiastical terms, as you say, they are just words in the Greek language whose meanings depend on context.  As I said, it is the Church that has a right to define it's own religious beliefs and not for it's critics to do so for it.   I am always civil when people are civil with me in return.