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 My aunt from Dallas said if this bill is passed, she believes there will be a civil war. Some other person said there would be revolution, right after my aunt said civil war. It made the wheels spin in my head.   Do you think because so many Americans oppose obamacare, and if Democrats go ahead, and ram it through. Is that OK? Will people just be fine with it?? My opinion is people will not just take it lying down, because it is hard to stop a moving train. Thoughts??

I suspect it will pass before the end of the year, and the people will ratify it by re-electing big spender congressmen and women, OR they will ratify today's protest by replacing the big spenders of BOTH parties with fiscally conservative representatives. We have a self correcting system.

Quote from: Jaime on Sat Sep 12, 2009 - 21:10:49
I suspect it will pass before the end of the year, and the people will ratify it by re-electing big spender congressmen and women, OR they will ratify today's protest by replacing the big spenders of BOTH parties with fiscally conservative representatives. We have a self correcting system.

Well there was this war once between the North and the south.....................................

      In the war between the North and South everyone lost and every one won.....

       If the health bill is passed many people that cannot get medical attention now will be able to do so.
        At least I hope so.  GOD Bless.
                                         Walker   

Quote from: lightshineon on Sat Sep 12, 2009 - 22:20:56

Quote from: Jaime on Sat Sep 12, 2009 - 21:10:49
I suspect it will pass before the end of the year, and the people will ratify it by re-electing big spender congressmen and women, OR they will ratify today's protest by replacing the big spenders of BOTH parties with fiscally conservative representatives. We have a self correcting system.

Well there was this war once between the North and the south.....................................

And only idiots would go down that path again.

Quote from: walker starr on Sat Sep 12, 2009 - 22:49:48



      In the war between the North and South everyone lost and every one won.....

       If the health bill is passed many people that cannot get medical attention now will be able to do so.
        At least I hope so.  GOD Bless.
                                         Walker   

As has been pointed out again and again, there really aren't many people who can't get medical attention now.  Hospitals, basically treat all who come in.  Perhaps the entire  range of medical services is not available to all, but that is not some sort of God given right.

There is no basis for us collectiviely to pay for any and all manner of healthcare for any and all comers.

If the democrat version of this healthcare is passed, there won't be any real effective reaction.  Perhaps some shift will occur in the next elections.  But mostly what will happen is that the costs will be picked up, taxes will increase, the government will slowly but surely aquire more and more power and people will slowly but surely accommodate and aclimate to the changes.  The country will gradually decline from a position of prominance and world leadership.  The increased taxes will serve as a hindrance to innovation and invention.  Further decreases in military funding will occur to offset the increase costs of the socialistic tendencies.  We will slowly recede to the level of the European countries.

If the healthcare bill is passed, it will be just the first in a long line of socialist trending bills.

It is sad.

Quote from: Jimmy on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 06:58:35

Quote from: walker starr on Sat Sep 12, 2009 - 22:49:48



      In the war between the North and South everyone lost and every one won.....

       If the health bill is passed many people that cannot get medical attention now will be able to do so.
        At least I hope so.  GOD Bless.
                                         Walker   

As has been pointed out again and again, there really aren't many people who can't get medical attention now.  Hospitals, basically treat all who come in.  Perhaps the entire  range of medical services is not available to all, but that is not some sort of God given right.

There is no basis for us collectiviely to pay for any and all manner of healthcare for any and all comers.

As has been pointed out again and again, what's available to everyone now is crisis care, but too many people wait and wait and wait until there is no choice to go for treatment, and then their illness has advanced to the point where itis either difficult and expensive to treat or can't be treated at all.

I know someone right now who isn't getting needed medicine because the price is prohibitive, and, though I am insured now, I have been there and am now having serious problems because I have gone long periods of time without medicine I couldn't afford.

What will happen if health care reform is passed?  Lives will be saved.  Period.

Quote from: marc on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 07:33:17

Quote from: Jimmy on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 06:58:35

Quote from: walker starr on Sat Sep 12, 2009 - 22:49:48



      In the war between the North and South everyone lost and every one won.....

       If the health bill is passed many people that cannot get medical attention now will be able to do so.
        At least I hope so.  GOD Bless.
                                         Walker   

As has been pointed out again and again, there really aren't many people who can't get medical attention now.  Hospitals, basically treat all who come in.  Perhaps the entire  range of medical services is not available to all, but that is not some sort of God given right.

There is no basis for us collectiviely to pay for any and all manner of healthcare for any and all comers.

As has been pointed out again and again, what's available to everyone now is crisis care, but too many people wait and wait and wait until there is no choice to go for treatment, and then their illness has advanced to the point where itis either difficult and expensive to treat or can't be treated at all.

I know someone right now who isn't getting needed medicine because the price is prohibitive, and, though I am insured now, I have been there and am now having serious problems because I have gone long periods of time without medicine I couldn't afford.

What will happen if health care reform is passed?  Lives will be saved.  Period.

marc, all you have said is that you did not know how to get what you needed (wanted).  What is it about healthcare that makes you think that everyone should have all levels of access to it?  Life is not fair.  We should be concerned about our fellow man, but that does not mean that you can take someone else's money to pay for your concerns about your fellow man.

If there truly is the problem that you perceive, then let's look to see how we can solve that problem.  But handing 20% of the GDP over to the government to run is really a stupid way to solve that problem -- any problem.

If you look at the systems that are under government control now, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Government Retirement, etc., they all overspend and underproduce.  All of them will be in the red before too many more years pass.  Obama himself keeps alluding to the disaster that is about to befall all of them and insists that the Healthcare bill will solve that.

He knows that is not true and therefore is intellectually dishonest.  Adding to the present problems will only increase the problem.  Once it is established, there will be no choice but to increase taxes.  And that is what socialist are driving toward.

This nonsense about saving lives is just so much hype.  Will a life here or there be saved that would otherwise not?  Perhaps, but there are far better ways of solving that problem than giving up our freedoms and turning over control to the government.

marc, socialism is where we are headed.  Socialism is a disgrace to mankind.

So is letting people die because they need health care in the richest nation on Earth.

btw, your opening sentence is not only smug, but wrong. But I guess that conservative ideology--money is more important than other people.

Quote from: marc on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 08:03:19
So is letting people die because they need health care in the richest nation on Earth.

Typical liberal response.  Who said anything about letting people die.  Can you not even imagine another posible and better solution to the problem of people needing help than to take money from your neighbor down the street to pay for helping someone who needs it?  No probably not.

Quote from: marc on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 08:03:19btw, your opening sentence is not only smug, but wrong. But I guess that conservative ideology--money is more important than other people.

How was it wrong?  I have seen the people in the emergency wards of the hospitials. Many there certainly are not going to pay anything for what they receive.    No conservative idealogy is not that money is more important than other people.  But as usual it is other people's money that liberals do not think is important.  They think it is theirs to use.  There are any number of studies to show that it is just the opposite.  Conservatives given far more to charity in the interest of helping others than do liberals.  That is fact.   Liberals simply give other peoples money away and then take credit for "helping" those who receive it..

 Walker many people will not get medical care that is needed.   Marc, the crazies in washington cannot run cash for clunkers. Ok, this is about people's reaction against the Bill. Two million people were on the mall, protesting yesterday. They are not going to give Barry a pass on this one.

Quote from: marc on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 08:03:19
So is letting people die because they need health care in the richest nation on Earth.

btw, your opening sentence is not only smug, but wrong. But I guess that conservative ideology--money is more important than other people.

Marc, less than a month ago, you were saying that you thought Obama was wrong on this one.

Quote from: lightshineon on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 15:45:39

Quote from: marc on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 08:03:19
So is letting people die because they need health care in the richest nation on Earth.

btw, your opening sentence is not only smug, but wrong. But I guess that conservative ideology--money is more important than other people.

Marc, less than a month ago, you were saying that you thought Obama was wrong on this one.

Check that quote and see what I was saying, exactly.   

There won't be a civil war...the liberals don't have a military!    

In Christ,
KP

LSO, I'm guessing this is what you were referring to:

QuoteAs much as I think we need healthcare reform, I don't like what seems to be coming from congress.  Obama seems to be more concerned with getting something done than getting the right thing done.

You can go back through the archives and see what I think is the right thing, fwiw.

Some of the problems with what congress is doing are being addresses; some aren't.  I'm afraid the public option, which I believe is essential for any real reform, is going down the tubes.

Quote from: marc on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 19:20:56
LSO, I'm guessing this is what you were referring to:

QuoteAs much as I think we need healthcare reform, I don't like what seems to be coming from congress.  Obama seems to be more concerned with getting something done than getting the right thing done.

You can go back through the archives and see what I think is the right thing, fwiw.

Some of the problems with what congress is doing are being addresses; some aren't.  I'm afraid the public option, which I believe is essential for any real reform, is going down the tubes.

The current "public option" of medicare and medicaid are two of the reasons why folks who do not qualify for those two programs also cannot afford private insurance.

Aren't they being partially administered by private companies now?

Anyway, we have a problem largely created by insurance companies.  There has to be some incentive for things to change or nothing will.

Quote from: marc on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 19:46:53
Aren't they being partially administered by private companies now?

Anyway, we have a problem largely created by insurance companies.  There has to be some incentive for things to change or nothing will.

The government does not pay the true cost of medicare and medicaid to hospitals, etc.   These costs are passed down to the rest of the populace in the form of higher costs for private insurance.

Higher costs of insurance prevent some from who do not qualify for medicare and medicaid to afford private insurance.

I don't disagree that part of the problem is in insurance companies.  But part is also the government, which is why I don't believe the "public option" is a good idea.  When oversight of said companies is done by the government, some of which may be on the dole, it's just a vicious circle.

Gary, Medicare and Medicaid are not private insurance company driven, they are government programs just like the VA medical program.  Google it for accuracy.

Marc, I agree with you 100%. We should not accept even one wealthy person in our society if it means people have to die because they cannot afford health care or insurance. What kind of society have we become when having money is more important than people's lives?

I think it is a travesty that the Church does not adequately helpbthose that need and can't get coverage. I don't believe it is government's role. If it is, then we are truly heading down a dangerous path in my opinion. Like my thread on Davy Crockett's view of the role of government points out, It is us the body of Christ that the burden should fall, not the government. Us as individuals have a long ways to go in being Christ-like. That's where change ought to occur.

Quote from: Isabell Island on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 20:55:39
Gary, Medicare and Medicaid are not private insurance company driven, they are government programs just like the VA medical program.  Google it for accuracy.

Marc, I agree with you 100%. We should not accept even one wealthy person in our society if it means people have to die because they cannot afford health care or insurance. What kind of society have we become when having money is more important than people's lives?

I don't believe you understand what I wrote in the slightest.  Of course, I know that medicaid and medicare are government programs (they come out of my taxes).  They are government programs that are not well run.   They run the risk of insolvency, etc.  Further, the government tells hospitals and medical providers what the reimbursement rate will be.  Often this reimbursement level does not cover costs.  These overruns are spread out to those who negotiate rates with the hospitals and medical providers.  This leads to higher prices for those who have private insurance.  Those who make too much money to qualify for medicaid and medicare, but cannot afford private insurance because of these reasons are the ones who are hurt.

 I do care what it contains, what it does, a majority of the people do not want it. It is unconstitutional at that, article 10, look it up. This is a disaster, how can these ninnies, do anything right? They have not yet. How deceived does one have to be? Marc, I was referring when you said, the president had it wrong on this one, several times in the recent past. I will tell you people will not take this, this will either cause great.  division in our country, or Obama will be hit, where the good Lord split ( with the door)

Given my longtime stance on health care reform (dating back to arund 1981), I'm assuming you misunderstood what I was saying.

Jaime, here in poor areas outside the Bible belt, the church doesn't have the means to help those who are uninsured get adequate medical help.

Then the Body of Christ in the Biblke belkt is remiss in nit helping the poorer areas of the country. This is a failing of the Church not government in my opinion. Over dependence on government has fostered the "government will handle that" mentality among afluent
Churches and individyal Christians.

The Body of Christ should not be limited by geography in this day and time.

Quote from: marc on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 19:46:53
Aren't they being partially administered by private companies now?

Anyway, we have a problem largely created by insurance companies.  There has to be some incentive for things to change or nothing will.

What problem is largely created by insurance companies?  And if the government gains control of healthcare as it is trying to do, what will the incentive be for change?

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Sep 13, 2009 - 21:06:47
I think it is a travesty that the Church does not adequately helpbthose that need and can't get coverage. I don't believe it is government's role. If it is, then we are truly heading down a dangerous path in my opinion. Like my thread on Davy Crockett's view of the role of government points out, It is us the body of Christ that the burden should fall, not the government. Us as individuals have a long ways to go in being Christ-like. That's where change ought to occur.

Jaime, I don't recall Jesus ever saying that it was the church's job to provide for a welfare system for the entire world.  I do recall the nation of Edom being judged as a whole and sent to oblivion for not helping the decedents of Jacob in their distress.  I do recall God using Joseph to collect from all the harvest of the seven good years so that it would be available to all in the seven lean.  I don't recall Him directing Joseph to do so as an individual, or a small band of Hebrews.  I do recall Him using Egypt, of all people.

But hey, let's play out hat scenario for just a second. What are you doing personally, and what is your congregation doing to help the hundreds, if not thousands, of poor in your community to pay for their private insurance?

Maybe we need to have a Pharoah system. OR a Czar system!  

Seriously, we as a nation or government should save up and store up for hard times, but we individually and collectively don't do that. We live up to the hilt and wonder what happened when tough times come personally and as a nation.

My congregation and me personally is not doing enough personally. No doubt about it. Again this is a Body of Christ shortcoming in a serious way.

PS, the decendents of Edom were chastised for not helping their Brothers, the decendents of Jacob, not just for not helping period. Also, God used Joseph and his travails and blessings to bless and preserve Jacobs family the nation of Israel. It wasn't out God's love for the Egyptians.

BTW, I am proud of our church's efforts that have begun called Radical Generosity. This group has purchased a trailer and outfitted it with medical and dental equipment and have gotten two dentists and one OB/Gyn I know to go once a week into the poor areas of our community and do free medical and dental procedures for those folks. We are hoping for this to grow exponentially. This group recently completed a trip to Nigeria doing the same thing. I pray they find many talented individuals that can perform a service for the less fortunate.

Lets call hyperbole hyperbole please.
That there were death panels was an overstatement
That folks are going to be dropping dead if we dont get a bill is overstatement.


There wont be war, there will be an unwanted healthcare bill. And it stinks to sit and watch while half or more dont want something, elite, who will not be subject to it, crow about their compassion while they donate squat to any charity.

Quote from: Jaime on Mon Sep 14, 2009 - 08:14:42
PS, the decendents of Edom were chastised for not helping their Brothers, the decendents of Jacob, not just for not helping period. Also, God used Joseph and his travails and blessings to bless and preserve Jacobs family the nation of Israel. It wasn't out God's love for the Egyptians.

In Obadiah, his chastisement was specificially for standing by in the day of Jacob's distress, then looting the place.  No points for ya there.  And your point about it not being out of love for Egypt is probably wrong.  Yes, it was all part of the plan to bless Israel, but God shows His love and providence to the just and the unjust, and I might remind you that his remarks of His love for the people of Ninevah, and even their cattle, might put a hole in your theory of His attitude toward those who would have suffered in Egypt had they not followed God's plan of provision.

I note a complete lack of a real answer to the question I actually asked.

God musta forgot about his concern for the Egyptians suffering with the plagues.

That strikes me as a just nearly blasphemous statement, Jaime.  I think you need to back off and take a breathe.  You may have thought that witty, I find it pretty far beneath you to speak of God's concern for people that way.  Reminds me of Jonah 4.


Jonah 4:1-11
1   But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry.
2   He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.
3   Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."
4   But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?"
5   Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city.
6   Then the LORD God provided a vine and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the vine.
7   But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine so that it withered.
8   When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah's head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, "It would be better for me to die than to live."
9   But God said to Jonah, "Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?" "I do," he said. "I am angry enough to die."
10   But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight.
11   But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?"
(NIV)

----------------------------------

Was that easier than answering the question about what you and your church are doing?

I did answer the question about what our church is doing.

Quote from: Jaime on Mon Sep 14, 2009 - 08:23:33
BTW, I am proud of our church's efforts that have begun called Radical Generosity. This group has purchased a trailer and outfitted it with medical and dental equipment and have gotten two dentists and one OB/Gyn I know to go once a week into the poor areas of our community and do free medical and dental procedures for those folks. We are hoping for this to grow exponentially. This group recently completed a trip to Nigeria doing the same thing. I pray they find many talented individuals that can perform a service for the less fortunate.

And I meant no blasphemy towards God. It was sarcasm directed at you. Maybe you need to back off.

You didn't hurt me, this isn't personal on my end.  I'm not the Lord you said forgot His love.  Some things are out of bounds even in sarcasm, istm.  You still haven't answered the question, and it's probably because the answer is terribly obvious.  The health care crisis in this country is not the fault of the church, and it's just silly to lay the blame there.  Even sillier to dodge the question by lobbing a vapid remark about God not loving the people He saved in the midst of famine, even though he knew their future leader would be of hardened heart.

I'll gladly back off, because I've now gotten my answer through the silence, and rabbits don't have enough meat on them to chase this long 'round the mulberry bush.