Christian Forums

Quote from: banished on Sat Oct 03, 2009 - 17:29:24
b

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Oct 03, 2009 - 16:21:43

Quote from: Magnificat on Sat Oct 03, 2009 - 01:39:12

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 12, 2009 - 11:16:04
I belive if God spoke he would say, who is a Catholic; who is a Protestant?

Because Truth matters and doctrine matters.  Whatever we hold to be true is what fuels our actions and so our lives will be lived according to what we perceive as truth.

You can boil down your question even further and say why be Christian at all? Why not just be jewish, or Buddhist?

Really why not be atheist? Why does believing matter? And does what we believe matter?

So I come back to truth. Because Truth matters.

Of course truth matters? So what is the truth ? or who is the truth we should say? Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the father except by me.
So what has this to do with being Protestant or Catholic. What truth is central to the gospel. John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whomsoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life.


Is any other truth you think I should know except the promise of the Holy spirit whom Jesus gave us at Pentecost. Oh we could go on and on but what truth is it that you think I'm lacking here concerning catholic Protestant. Maybe we should home in on (whom soever believeth) shall have eternal life. Who are the whomsoevers. Note it did not say whomsoever is Roman Catholic. What constitutes saving faith. being a good loyal Catholic goning to mass every day. I tell you right now IT IS no the out ward things we do but the inward person we are that makes any of us his.

God bless   

mclees8,

I think that you are getting the wrong message?  Basically, lets look at our Christian walk as a long Voyage across a large ocean.  The Catholic ship is undoubtedly the safest and most secure ship, but it's not the only ship crossing the ocean.  Myself being an Excommunicated Catholic, because of being married as a Born Again Christian, will probably put me in the same ship as you are in.  Lets face it, regardless of what ship were take the voyage in, the Catholic Ship is still much safer.  Jesus gave the keys to Peter, and the other churches broke away in contempt. The Protestants don't have a let to stand on, period.  Apparently the Grace of God is keeping the Protestant ships barely afloat?

Sorry this is not a catholic Protestant issue. It is a faith issue. there are no two boats only only one, and it is unsinkable. You are either in that boat or you are drowning. I am now neither catholic nor Protestant and I be long to know denomination yet i serve Christ faithfully. he is all that there is. I am not a rebel against authority. I just left all the valley of confusion where the river of confusion divides the the church. from down in the valley you cannot see the confusion for what it is but if you leave it and climb higher on the mountain you can plainly see it.       

God bless

(quote)
Sorry this is not a catholic Protestant issue. It is a faith issue. there are no two boats only only one, and it is unsinkable. You are either in that boat or you are drowning. I am now neither catholic nor Protestant and I be long to know denomination yet i serve Christ faithfully. he is all that there is. I am not a rebel against authority. I just left all the valley of confusion where the river of confusion divides the the church. from down in the valley you cannot see the confusion for what it is but if you leave it and climb higher on the mountain you can plainly see it.        

God bless
(end of quote}

Look at the title of the thread it's about why be RC, why be Protestant. Believe it or not, you are my most likely Catholic Convert, and you are standing out there in the wilderness all by yourself.

During every English Language Mass after we say the Lord's Prayer the Priest prays:

"Deliver us Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day.  In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

The congregation says:
For the kingdon, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.


The Priest Prays:
"Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles:  I leave you peace, my peace I give you.  Look not on our sins, but the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever.

The congration says, Amen.

There you have it.  Catholics pray that Jesus will not look at their sins, but rather look at the faith of his (Roman Catholic) Church that was founded by Peter.  That is the boat that is unsinkable. Jesus looks upon the faith of his Church.  Even a Born Again Bible Believing Protestant church is better than no church.  I prefer that you get into a Roman Catholic church every Sunday for Mass.  You can cross your arms across your chest when you go up to the alter during Communion.

Quote from: banished on Sat Oct 03, 2009 - 21:22:53
(quote)

Sorry this is not a catholic Protestant issue. It is a faith issue. there are no two boats only only one, and it is unsinkable. You are either in that boat or you are drowning. I am now neither catholic nor Protestant and I be long to know denomination yet i serve Christ faithfully. he is all that there is. I am not a rebel against authority. I just left all the valley of confusion where the river of confusion divides the the church. from down in the valley you cannot see the confusion for what it is but if you leave it and climb higher on the mountain you can plainly see it.       

God bless

(end of quote}

Look at the title of the thread it's about why be RC, why be Protestant. Believe it or not, you are my most likely Catholic Convert, and you are standing out there in the wilderness all by yourself.

During every English Language Mass after we say the Lord's Prayer the Priest prays:

"Deliver us Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day.  In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

The congregation says:

For the kingdon, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.


The Priest Prays:

"Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles:  I leave you peace, my peace I give you.  Look not on our sins, but the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever.

The congration says, Amen.

There you have it.  Catholics pray that Jesus will not look at their sins, but rather look at the faith of his (Roman Catholic) Church that was founded by Peter.  That is the boat that is unsinkable. Jesus looks upon the faith of his Church.  Even a Born Again Bible Believing Protestant church is better than no church.  I prefer that you get into a Roman Catholic church every Sunday for Mass.  You can cross your arms across your chest when you go up to the alter during Communion.

I tell you again when Jesus comes He will not see Catholic or Protestant. Only those who Love Him and serve him. I am not in the wilderness by my self and I serve him in ways you do not know.

Its not a denominationaL thing and it never was. On the day of Pentecost the church was born. Not of Roman catholics or protestants. Neither existed. they were just believers filled with the Holy ghost and power to witness for Christ. this is still how Jesus will see his Bride today and at His second coming   

How do you pray when you are not in service. You don't have to answer. Just think about it.   Does he know you or is it just in service. Serving the Lord is not just serving the institution but it is a life that is given.

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Oct 03, 2009 - 22:20:33

Quote from: banished on Sat Oct 03, 2009 - 21:22:53
(quote)

Sorry this is not a catholic Protestant issue. It is a faith issue. there are no two boats only only one, and it is unsinkable. You are either in that boat or you are drowning. I am now neither catholic nor Protestant and I be long to know denomination yet i serve Christ faithfully. he is all that there is. I am not a rebel against authority. I just left all the valley of confusion where the river of confusion divides the the church. from down in the valley you cannot see the confusion for what it is but if you leave it and climb higher on the mountain you can plainly see it.       

God bless

(end of quote}

Look at the title of the thread it's about why be RC, why be Protestant. Believe it or not, you are my most likely Catholic Convert, and you are standing out there in the wilderness all by yourself.

During every English Language Mass after we say the Lord's Prayer the Priest prays:

"Deliver us Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day.  In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

The congregation says:

For the kingdon, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.


The Priest Prays:

"Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles:  I leave you peace, my peace I give you.  Look not on our sins, but the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever.

The congration says, Amen.

There you have it.  Catholics pray that Jesus will not look at their sins, but rather look at the faith of his (Roman Catholic) Church that was founded by Peter.  That is the boat that is unsinkable. Jesus looks upon the faith of his Church.  Even a Born Again Bible Believing Protestant church is better than no church.  I prefer that you get into a Roman Catholic church every Sunday for Mass.  You can cross your arms across your chest when you go up to the alter during Communion.

I tell you again when Jesus comes He will not see Catholic or Protestant. Only those who Love Him and serve him. I am not in the wilderness by my self and I serve him in ways you do not know.

Its not a denominationaL thing and it never was. On the day of Pentecost the church was born. Not of Roman catholics or protestants. Neither existed. they were just believers filled with the Holy ghost and power to witness for Christ. this is still how Jesus will see his Bride today and at His second coming   

How do you pray when you are not in service. You don't have to answer. Just think about it.   Does he know you or is it just in service. Serving the Lord is not just serving the institution but it is a life that is given.

God bless

Hello mclee8,

I'm glad that you asked that question, because belonging to a church is a lot different than what you think.  It's back breaking work!  Let me tell you about my past 24 hours.  Last weekend there was a Typhoon and Flood in Manila that caused thousands to be homeless.  My wife emailed all the parents of the children in the Christian School where she works, and told them to drop off donations.  Many people responded, but the stuff was dropped off in shopping bags and leaf bags.  It all has to be packed into small U-Haul boxes so that the squared-off pallets could be loaded into a shipping container.  My wife arranged for the free shipping of the container and also setup a 700 Club account for cash donations.  I helped pack the boxes, loaded them on my truck, made 2 trips almost a hundred miles to the nearest airport.  This is a normal occurrence for doers of the word, and it's almost impossible to do God's work while alone out in the wilderness.  Not fancy theology or even a thank you, mind you, just back breaking work.  And of course, both my wife and I would much rather be doing all this for Catholic Charities, but they wont have us because of a technicality about our Born Again marriage.  If you can do all that by yourself I'm here to learn.  I think that you should at least try going to a Catholic Church for a while to see if the Spirit moves you in that direction.

Quote from: banished on Sun Oct 04, 2009 - 00:07:11

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Oct 03, 2009 - 22:20:33

Quote from: banished on Sat Oct 03, 2009 - 21:22:53
(quote)

Sorry this is not a catholic Protestant issue. It is a faith issue. there are no two boats only only one, and it is unsinkable. You are either in that boat or you are drowning. I am now neither catholic nor Protestant and I be long to know denomination yet i serve Christ faithfully. he is all that there is. I am not a rebel against authority. I just left all the valley of confusion where the river of confusion divides the the church. from down in the valley you cannot see the confusion for what it is but if you leave it and climb higher on the mountain you can plainly see it.       

God bless

(end of quote}

Look at the title of the thread it's about why be RC, why be Protestant. Believe it or not, you are my most likely Catholic Convert, and you are standing out there in the wilderness all by yourself.

During every English Language Mass after we say the Lord's Prayer the Priest prays:

"Deliver us Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day.  In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

The congregation says:

For the kingdon, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.


The Priest Prays:

"Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles:  I leave you peace, my peace I give you.  Look not on our sins, but the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever.

The congration says, Amen.

There you have it.  Catholics pray that Jesus will not look at their sins, but rather look at the faith of his (Roman Catholic) Church that was founded by Peter.  That is the boat that is unsinkable. Jesus looks upon the faith of his Church.  Even a Born Again Bible Believing Protestant church is better than no church.  I prefer that you get into a Roman Catholic church every Sunday for Mass.  You can cross your arms across your chest when you go up to the alter during Communion.

I tell you again when Jesus comes He will not see Catholic or Protestant. Only those who Love Him and serve him. I am not in the wilderness by my self and I serve him in ways you do not know.

Its not a denominationaL thing and it never was. On the day of Pentecost the church was born. Not of Roman catholics or protestants. Neither existed. they were just believers filled with the Holy ghost and power to witness for Christ. this is still how Jesus will see his Bride today and at His second coming   

How do you pray when you are not in service. You don't have to answer. Just think about it.   Does he know you or is it just in service. Serving the Lord is not just serving the institution but it is a life that is given.

God bless

Hello mclee8,

I'm glad that you asked that question, because belonging to a church is a lot different than what you think.  It's back breaking work!  Let me tell you about my past 24 hours.  Last weekend there was a Typhoon and Flood in Manila that caused thousands to be homeless.  My wife emailed all the parents of the children in the Christian School where she works, and told them to drop off donations.  Many people responded, but the stuff was dropped off in shopping bags and leaf bags.  It all has to be packed into small U-Haul boxes so that the squared-off pallets could be loaded into a shipping container.  My wife arranged for the free shipping of the container and also setup a 700 Club account for cash donations.  I helped pack the boxes, loaded them on my truck, made 2 trips almost a hundred miles to the nearest airport.  This is a normal occurrence for doers of the word, and it's almost impossible to do God's work while alone out in the wilderness.  Not fancy theology or even a thank you, mind you, just back breaking work.  And of course, both my wife and I would much rather be doing all this for Catholic Charities, but they wont have us because of a technicality about our Born Again marriage.  If you can do all that by yourself I'm here to learn.  I think that you should at least try going to a Catholic Church for a while to see if the Spirit moves you in that direction.

Dear banished I believer you are doing yourself a disservice. You are not banished from Christ when he lives in your heart. I would change that name you have tagged on your self. If the institution has made you feel that way then they have done you a disservice.
You minimiize who you are by thinking that your serving Christ in some lesser capacity because you cannot serve through the RC church. I must say my service to him is humble.   

I have learned much since i divorced myself from the organized church.  I have learned salvation is not through the institution how ever much good is done through it. I do not believe we are doing works to be saved but because we are saved.  What organized church  are you doing these things.  Listen My point is this What would you do if you were not of any denominational church. Would you still serve Him. I am not advocating that you leave you place of worship but truly see who it is that you worship not because you serve an organized church.   We know the two greatest commandments. Love the Lord God with all your heart mind an soul, and then love your neighbor as your self. If we do this we have done all that God would want from us.
God bless 

mclees8-

You have been side stepping the fact that you are out in the wilderness.  The school where my wife works is Assemblies of God.  The famous TV Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Baker have pored million into building Christian Schools and Churches all over the World.  I think you are missing the point that since the time of Peter and the Last Supper with Jesus He is in the Eucharist.  The Theological term is, "transubstantiation".  Do a Google Search to learn about it.  Anyway, during every Roman Catholic Mass since the time of St Peter the priest actually converts the elements of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.  Therefore, when a Catholic is excommunicated he is in fact banished from Jesus.  Yes they are heartless bastards, but the rules are the rules.  If you ask any Catholic they will tell you that my wife and I banished ourselves when we broke the rules set down by cannon law. Two practicing Catholic are not to make an alter call at a Charismatic event, become Born Again, and get married in a Born Again Church.  Those actions bring on automatic Excommunication and banishment from the Eucharist.  The only reason I am allowed to mention it, is because this is a Protestant owned forum.  The famous Catholic Answers Forum has given me the boot twice (Jean Anthony), plus all 4 Yahoo Catholic Forums have given me the boot also.  Before I die I will not be given the Sacraments of the Church, and will be buried as a common heathen.  We will go out as doers of the word and born again.

You have a chance to get out of the wilderness now and be a Catholic, so do it.     

Quote from: banished on Sun Oct 04, 2009 - 09:33:24
mclees8-

You have been side stepping the fact that you are out in the wilderness.  The school where my wife works is Assemblies of God.  The famous TV Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Baker have pored million into building Christian Schools and Churches all over the World.  I think you are missing the point that since the time of Peter and the Last Supper with Jesus He is in the Eucharist.  The Theological term is, "transubstantiation".  Do a Google Search to learn about it.  Anyway, during every Roman Catholic Mass since the time of St Peter the priest actually converts the elements of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.  Therefore, when a Catholic is excommunicated he is in fact banished from Jesus.  Yes they are heartless bastards, but the rules are the rules.  If you ask any Catholic they will tell you that my wife and I banished ourselves when we broke the rules set down by cannon law. Two practicing Catholic are not to make an alter call at a Charismatic event, become Born Again, and get married in a Born Again Church.  Those actions bring on automatic Excommunication and banishment from the Eucharist.  The only reason I am allowed to mention it, is because this is a Protestant owned forum.  The famous Catholic Answers Forum has given me the boot twice (Jean Anthony), plus all 4 Yahoo Catholic Forums have given me the boot also.  Before I die I will not be given the Sacraments of the Church, and will be buried as a common heathen.  We will go out as doers of the word and born again.

You have a chance to get out of the wilderness now and be a Catholic, so do it.     

Listen I know about transubstantiation and I think now you are just trying to jerk me around .  So now you are banished from the Eucharist and you will die as a heathen along with thre rest of those poor souls of the born agains.

You didn't obey the rules and now you will burn. We have been delivered from the curse of the law. (There is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus)Rom 8:1
You take communion right. In your mind think of it as the Eucharist. Oh of course its not being done by an offical RC priest. darn the luck. I guess you are still going to burn.

God bless 

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 - 12:17:43

Quote from: banished on Sun Oct 04, 2009 - 09:33:24
mclees8-

You have been side stepping the fact that you are out in the wilderness.  The school where my wife works is Assemblies of God.  The famous TV Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Baker have pored million into building Christian Schools and Churches all over the World.  I think you are missing the point that since the time of Peter and the Last Supper with Jesus He is in the Eucharist.  The Theological term is, "transubstantiation".  Do a Google Search to learn about it.  Anyway, during every Roman Catholic Mass since the time of St Peter the priest actually converts the elements of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.  Therefore, when a Catholic is excommunicated he is in fact banished from Jesus.  Yes they are heartless bastards, but the rules are the rules.  If you ask any Catholic they will tell you that my wife and I banished ourselves when we broke the rules set down by cannon law. Two practicing Catholic are not to make an alter call at a Charismatic event, become Born Again, and get married in a Born Again Church.  Those actions bring on automatic Excommunication and banishment from the Eucharist.  The only reason I am allowed to mention it, is because this is a Protestant owned forum.  The famous Catholic Answers Forum has given me the boot twice (Jean Anthony), plus all 4 Yahoo Catholic Forums have given me the boot also.  Before I die I will not be given the Sacraments of the Church, and will be buried as a common heathen.  We will go out as doers of the word and born again.

You have a chance to get out of the wilderness now and be a Catholic, so do it.    

Listen I know about transubstantiation and I think now you are just trying to jerk me around .  So now you are banished from the Eucharist and you will die as a heathen along with thre rest of those poor souls of the born agains.

You didn't obey the rules and now you will burn. We have been delivered from the curse of the law. (There is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus)Rom 8:1
You take communion right. In your mind think of it as the Eucharist. Oh of course its not being done by an offical RC priest. darn the luck. I guess you are still going to burn.

God bless  

Mclees8-

I am not trying to "jerk you around",  I am trying to show you the path to salvation, which of course is best done through the Sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church.  Like I said earlier, there are other water logged ships (about to sink) that cross the Ocean, but the Catholic ship is the safest and most secure ship.  Get aboard now before the one man canoe that you are on now sinks.  I didn't say that we would burn without the Sacraments of Peter's Church, I said that we would be buried as common heathens.  And that's true.  It's up to Jesus to determine who burns. Remember, before my excommunication I had already eaten a barrel full of those Catholic transubstantiation wafers, so it's not as if I never had real communion.  Were you at one time a Catholic, or always out in the wilderness?

If you decide to take your chances out in the wilderness let me team you up with Harold Camping from Family Radio.  He has been preaching that the Church Age ended a few years back and has written a couple of books on the subject.  You can find Family Radio with an Internet Search, and if you don't live within radio reception range there are shortwave broadcasts and audio streaming at the web side.  I much prefer that you pay a little extra for the premium channels and tune in to EWTN the Catholic Television Network.  Practicing the Catholic faith will always require more effort and quite a bit of attention must be given to canon law. Everything inside the Catholic Church is a legal process.  It's a religion governed by canon law. Just wondering, are you in with Harold Camping and think that the Church Age has ended?  Is that the reason you started this thread?  Camping brings up some good points.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Oct 03, 2009 - 16:21:43
Of course truth matters? So what is the truth ?

As far as the OP goes, that answer suffices. The reason why being either Catholic or Protestant all boils down to Truth.

Quote
or who is the truth we should say? Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the father except by me.
So what has this to do with being Protestant or Catholic. 

Plenty.  Because it all comes down to how we understand who Christ is and what He is on about.  The whole point of Christ's coming is salvation and there is quite a difference in how Catholics and Protestant understand salvtion and how Christ's life,death and ressurection effected salvation.

QuoteWhat truth is central to the gospel. John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whomsoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life. 

This certainly is a true but not the entire truth. The entire Gospel cannot be summarized in this one verse because Christ himself said that not every one who calls him Lord, Lord will have eternal life.

That is why I said above our understanding of the "HOW" of salvation matters.

QuoteIs any other truth you think I should know except the promise of the Holy spirit whom Jesus gave us at Pentecost. 

That is once again true. But only part of the truth and not the entirety of Truth.

QuoteOh we could go on and on but what truth is it that you think I'm lacking here concerning catholic Protestant. Maybe we should home in on (whom soever believeth) shall have eternal life. 

As I have said above, this is not the be all and end of all the Bible but just a portion of it. 

QuoteWho are the whomsoevers. Note it did not say whomsoever is Roman Catholic. 

That is true. But when Christ established His Church there was only one Church. The Catholic Church. And this is the means by which He effects salvation.

Take note that Christ did not do any writing.  The NT was written within the bossom of the Catholic Church. What Christ did instead was to built a Church. That is why Church matters.

Here we get more in depth as to the question of the wholeness of Truth.

QuoteWhat constitutes saving faith. being a good loyal Catholic goning to mass every day. I tell you right now IT IS no the out ward things we do but the inward person we are that makes any of us his. 

It may not be the outward thing we do but your criterian of the "inward person" certainly requires a bit more definition. 

And yes going to mass everyday plays a huge role in saving faith. But to explain that will take more time.

Peace!

 What constitutes saving faith. being a good loyal Catholic goning to mass every day. I tell you right now IT IS no the out ward things we do but the inward person we are that makes any of us his.
It may not be the outward thing we do but your criterian of the "inward person" certainly requires a bit more definition.

And yes going to mass everyday plays a huge role in saving faith. But to explain that will take more time.

Peace!


Going to mass every days saves you. Did the apostles do that?  How about walking with Christ every day. There's a song we sing ( I come to the Garden alone when the dew is still on the Roses. Yes it is bliss for me every day. You need a definition What are the two greatest commandments. (Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart mind and soul, and thy neighbor as thyself. In this lies all the law and the Prophets. I beieive the definition is ( Love)  Define love and you define Christ     

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 10:51:58
What constitutes saving faith. being a good loyal Catholic goning to mass every day. I tell you right now IT IS no the out ward things we do but the inward person we are that makes any of us his.
It may not be the outward thing we do but your criterian of the "inward person" certainly requires a bit more definition.

And yes going to mass everyday plays a huge role in saving faith. But to explain that will take more time.

Peace!


Mike > I don,t believe Christ taught all that your legalist church has taught .


Going to mass every days saves you. Did the apostles do that?  How about walking with Christ every day. There's a song we sing ( I come to the Garden alone when the dew is still on the Roses. Yes it is bliss for me every day. You need a definition What are the two greatest commandments. (Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart mind and soul, and thy neighbor as thyself. In this lies all the law and the Prophets. I belieive the definition is ( Love)  Define love and you define Christ     

'You are Peter and Upon This Rock, I will build My Church'
-Christ, Matthew
This Rock, My Church. There is No Plural.  Its pretty simple



Jesus Christ established A Church—not a book—to be the Foundation of the Christian faith
(Luke 20:29-32; Matt. 10:40; 28:18-20).


Jesus entrusted Peter with his flock, making him too a Good Shepherd (John 21:15-17).
Peter was First Patriarch of Antioch then Founded Church of Rome.
(Matt. 16:18)
Peter listed as the First of the Apostles in all NT. Recorded more than any other disciple. Given command to 'Feed my lambs' 3 times.


Galatians 1:6-9
'I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Some people are throwing you into confusion and  pervert the gospel of Christ
But even if an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned.  If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!'


Protest-ants & Jews know the final empire in the Scriptures will be 100% Roman Catholic so the true gospel can be preached to the world before JEW Anti Christ.
And why they attack the Catholic Church, its peoples, monasteries, governments.
They know the wh*re is Judaism/ Occult Judaism.
OCCULT Jews occupy The Throne for now.

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 08:27:24
'You are Peter and Upon This Rock, I will build My Church'
-Christ, Matthew
This Rock, My Church. There is No Plural.  Its pretty simple



Jesus Christ established A Church—not a book—to be the Foundation of the Christian faith
(Luke 20:29-32; Matt. 10:40; 28:18-20).


Jesus entrusted Peter with his flock, making him too a Good Shepherd (John 21:15-17).
Peter was First Patriarch of Antioch then Founded Church of Rome.
(Matt. 16:18)
Peter listed as the First of the Apostles in all NT. Recorded more than any other disciple. Given command to 'Feed my lambs' 3 times.


Galatians 1:6-9
'I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Some people are throwing you into confusion and  pervert the gospel of Christ
But even if an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned.  If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!'


Protest-ants & Jews know the final empire in the Scriptures will be 100% Roman Catholic so the true gospel can be preached to the world before JEW Anti Christ.
And why they attack the Catholic Church, its peoples, monasteries, governments.
They know the wh*re is Judaism/ Occult Judaism.
OCCULT Jews occupy The Throne for now.

If it is Peter as the head of Christ's church then follow Him and the example for christ he was. Please tell me where in scripture does it ever say that the church will be 100% Roman Cathlolic. This much I know and listen well. the Lord knows no Catholic or Protestant.  He knows who his bride is and will recieve them when he returns. he has no pet denomination. He will find his bride that give their life  for his sake. 

Rev 6:9>And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;

Rev 7:14> These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 12:11> And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Thes spoken of here may sit on many pews. there wiil be two in the field, one will be taken and the other one left.

Please mind well this will not be a demoninational or organized church thing. The question is How will Jesus find you. You will not be taken because of any affiliation. You will not be able to where a sign saying what a good catholic you were.

Every one will be tested for his works and that is not about how will you served the institution but what was in your heart that motivates one to love his neighbor

God Bless 


     

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Oct 30, 2009 - 10:54:22

Galatians 1:6-9
'I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Some people are throwing you into confusion and  pervert the gospel of Christ
But even if an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned.  If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!'[/b]

The question here is what is the gospel and what is another gospel.   Is the penal substitution theory the gospel?  No.  The early church did not use this model.  It begins to take hold only in the 11th century.  Is sola scriptura an early church doctrine?  No.  The church came up with the idea of the New Testament.   

Quote

If it is Peter as the head of Christ's church then follow Him and the example for christ he was. Please tell me where in scripture does it ever say that the church will be 100% Roman Cathlolic.

The church is not the sum of all believers.  That is the book of life, not the church.  Protestants changed the definition of the church to this;  the church is real (organization), earthly as well as heavenly.  It is not a concept. 

It is also undivided, since Christ cannot be divided, as Paul says.  Therefore, there can be only one true church.   Note in Matthew 16:18 Jesus says he will build his church, not churches. 

By the way, I do not think the RCC is that one true church.  However, I expect there to be Protestants and Catholics in the book of life.   See the difference?

Quote
This much I know and listen well. the Lord knows no Catholic or Protestant.  He knows who his bride is and will recieve them when he returns.

True, but this doesn't mean there that the church doesn't matter. The church is God's witness on earth and even heaven (Eph. 3:10).

Quote
he has no pet denomination. He will find his bride that give their life  for his sake. 

Actually, he does.  He established one church. See above.  He loves the church.

Quote
You will not be able to where a sign saying what a good catholic you were.

But do you replace the word "Catholic" with "Christian?"  We will have to give an account for everything we have done.   Is defending and helping his Church part of these things?

Quote
Every one will be tested for his works and that is not about how will you served the institution

I hope that I served the church well.  It's not unimportant.

Quote
but what was in your heart that motivates one to love his neighbor

That may count for even more.
 


     

trifecta,

God bless you!  I learned a lot from your last post.  Thanks

Quote from: trifecta on Mon Nov 02, 2009 - 17:09:28

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Oct 30, 2009 - 10:54:22

Galatians 1:6-9
'I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Some people are throwing you into confusion and  pervert the gospel of Christ
But even if an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned.  If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!'[/b]

The question here is what is the gospel and what is another gospel.   Is the penal substitution theory the gospel?  No.  The early church did not use this model.  It begins to take hold only in the 11th century.  Is sola scriptura an early church doctrine?  No.  The church came up with the idea of the New Testament.   

Quote

If it is Peter as the head of Christ's church then follow Him and the example for christ he was. Please tell me where in scripture does it ever say that the church will be 100% Roman Cathlolic.

The church is not the sum of all believers.  That is the book of life, not the church.  Protestants changed the definition of the church to this;  the church is real (organization), earthly as well as heavenly.  It is not a concept. 

It is also undivided, since Christ cannot be divided, as Paul says.  Therefore, there can be only one true church.   Note in Matthew 16:18 Jesus says he will build his church, not churches. 

By the way, I do not think the RCC is that one true church.  However, I expect there to be Protestants and Catholics in the book of life.   See the difference?

Quote
This much I know and listen well. the Lord knows no Catholic or Protestant.  He knows who his bride is and will recieve them when he returns.

True, but this doesn't mean there that the church doesn't matter. The church is God's witness on earth and even heaven (Eph. 3:10).

Quote
he has no pet denomination. He will find his bride that give their life  for his sake. 

Actually, he does.  He established one church. See above.  He loves the church.

Quote
You will not be able to where a sign saying what a good catholic you were.

But do you replace the word "Catholic" with "Christian?"  We will have to give an account for everything we have done.   Is defending and helping his Church part of these things?

Quote
Every one will be tested for his works and that is not about how will you served the institution

I hope that I served the church well.  It's not unimportant.

Quote
but what was in your heart that motivates one to love his neighbor

That may count for even more.
 


     

The church has always been one church. It is man who divides it attaches its names to it introduces its own beliefs, doctrines, traditions that were not of the apostles. It was men who institutionalized it and separated the clergy and exalted it. It was man who gave tiles and rank to clergy and put on special garments as to be set apart to be called Rabbi Rabbi.     

This is not to say there are to be leaders whom we are to respect, but I believe the apostles did nothing to call attention to themselves as to be over anyone. Even when certain people of a town tried to worship Paul and Silas they said no we are just men like you. for this they ran them out of town.

It is man who wants to be glorified with rank title and position. It is man who who desires to have power and recognition. But this is not what Jesus ever taught for those who know Him and see his truth. we are not he exalted ones but as John the Baptist said , He must increase and I must decrease. I love my neighbor and do good works that honors God and lifts up the name of Christ just as Christ called all of us to do not out of any sense of duty but it is now Christ who lives in me. Love compassion and faith are now apart of who I am and still being perfected in me

Think now this is how it was long before we were made to see grand cathedrals and with popes cardinals and all this other exalted priest hood that institutionalizes the church as a thing, a hierarchy of religious piety and A place we go to on Sunday. Yes we should gather to Worship, but we glorify him as one who is given not to an institution but to Him.

I gather with others and help bring Christ to the poor on Sunday and we worship under a tree. Are we not doing in His name and are we not the church just as much as in any church with a steeple? Jesus ministered in the streets and on mountainsides. there is nothing wrong with going to a place of worship as we do not worship it but Him who sits at the right hand of God. It is not the place of worship or the clergy system that is the only vehicle to Christ for is truly institutionalizes the church. Jesus told the women at the well that that day has come when you will not worship on your mountain nor In Jerusalem but the true worshipers will worship God in spirit and in truth

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 - 08:10:16
I gather with others and help bring Christ to the poor on Sunday and we worship under a tree. Are we not doing in His name and are we not the church just as much as in any church with a steeple? Jesus ministered in the streets and on mountainsides. there is nothing wrong with going to a place of worship as we do not worship it but Him who sits at the right hand of God. It is not the place of worship or the clergy system that is the only vehicle to Christ for is truly institutionalizes the church. Jesus told the women at the well that that day has come when you will not worship on your mountain nor In Jerusalem but the true worshipers will worship God in spirit and in truth

God bless

You may be a church, just not Christ's Church. You are your own personal church. This is the problem with Protestantism

Modern Protestants have privatised Christianity. It's egocentric not Christocentric They have reduced it to a "personal relationship with Christ

Quote from: winsome on Tue Nov 03, 2009 - 13:33:31

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 - 08:10:16
I gather with others and help bring Christ to the poor on Sunday and we worship under a tree. Are we not doing in His name and are we not the church just as much as in any church with a steeple? Jesus ministered in the streets and on mountainsides. there is nothing wrong with going to a place of worship as we do not worship it but Him who sits at the right hand of God. It is not the place of worship or the clergy system that is the only vehicle to Christ for is truly institutionalizes the church. Jesus told the women at the well that that day has come when you will not worship on your mountain nor In Jerusalem but the true worshipers will worship God in spirit and in truth

God bless

You may be a church, just not Christ's Church. You are your own personal church. This is the problem with Protestantism

Modern Protestants have privatised Christianity. It's egocentric not Christocentric They have reduced it to a "personal relationship with Christ

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Quote from: Amo on Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 12:32:32
John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Thanks Amo. I least there's some here that understands. 

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 - 11:12:32

You talk as one who has no understanding. The church is not a place or a thing. It is a people.

This is a Protestant idea derived from the fact that Protestants were not in the actual church.  The church is both physical and spiritual, as is its head, our Lord Jesus Christ.  It is not just people, but the "pillar and foundation of the truth."   See my quote above.

Quote

They have beguiled you with false teaching.  Your idea about protestants being rouge churches that take all scripture out of context is straight from religous pride, arrogance, and, prejudice .

Or is it an honest disagreement with Protestants about their emphases?  Demonizing Rome doesn't prove anything.   The way I see Roman interpretation of Scripture is as good as the Protestants', if not better.   

Quote
The fact is the Lord does not see Catholic or Protestant Just those who love and keep his commandments. Are many mislead in this modern day thing we call Christianity. Thats a fact and its both sides of the river.
God bless

You have a point here.   I do think, though, we will also have to account for our faith and were we truly serving his church. 

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 - 08:10:16

The church has always been one church.

Now, this we can agree on.

Quote
It is man who divides it attaches its names to it introduces its own beliefs, doctrines, traditions that were not of the apostles.

The question is whose traditions are "man's traditions" or the doctrines of men.  It is easy to say my church's traditions are of the Apostles and yours are of man.   But then you have to prove it.  Protestants traditions do not just come from the Bible but from  the Protestant fathers, 1500 years later:  The early church did not believe in sola scriptura (there was no compiled New Testament for a few hundred years), they did not believe in justification by faith alone (a Luther invention), and they certainly didn't believe the community (church) had nothing to do with salvation (this wasn't in their culture), and they believed in the real presence of communion (historical fact: note Justin Martyr, Ignatious, Ireanous and of course Paul in I Cor 10).

Quote
It was men who institutionalized it and separated the clergy and exalted it. It was man who gave tiles and rank to clergy and put on special garments as to be set apart to be called Rabbi Rabbi.    

This was true in Jewish society.   People with honor were treated accordingly.  It was true then and now.   Do we not give respect to the President?

Quote
This is not to say there are to be leaders whom we are to respect, but I believe the apostles did nothing to call attention to themselves as to be over anyone.

But the Apostles were "over" people.   Note too that the church established "overseers" (bishops).    There is nothing wrong with authority.

Quote
Even when certain people of a town tried to worship Paul and Silas they said no we are just men like you. for this they ran them out of town.

Worship is not the same thing as honor.   I honor many people but only worship God. I bet you do too.

Quote
Think now this is how it was long before we were made to see grand cathedrals and with popes cardinals and all this other exalted priest hood that institutionalizes the church as a thing, a hierarchy of religious piety

I understand that cathedral may not be your thing (I am American too), but they are also a way of honoring the Lord.

Quote
and A place we go to on Sunday. Yes we should gather to Worship, but we glorify him as one who is given not to an institution but to Him.

Protestants are always pitting God against the Church.   But we see in Ephesians the church is the Bride of Church.  Jesus loves the church!

Quote
I gather with others and help bring Christ to the poor on Sunday and we worship under a tree. Are we not doing in His name and are we not the church just as much as in any church with a steeple?

Nothing wrong with worshipping outside, and I am sure you are worshipping the same God that I do.  But note that when two or three or gathered in name, the Scripture doesn't call this the church, but that He is with them.  A family gathered in prayer includes God among them but it is not the church.  No one in the early church thought this, but, these days, many Protestants do.

Quote
Jesus ministered in the streets and on mountainsides. there is nothing wrong with going to a place of worship as we do not worship it but Him who sits at the right hand of God. It is not the place of worship or the clergy system that is the only vehicle to Christ for is truly institutionalizes the church. Jesus told the women at the well that that day has come when you will not worship on your mountain nor In Jerusalem but the true worshipers will worship God in spirit and in truth

God bless

To end on a good note, I can agree here.   Can you accept that some find more comfort worshipping in a cathedral than others?  

Thanks for reading.

Quote from: trifecta on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 20:48:09

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 - 08:10:16

The church has always been one church.

Now, this we can agree on.

Quote
It is man who divides it attaches its names to it introduces its own beliefs, doctrines, traditions that were not of the apostles.

The question is whose traditions are "man's traditions" or the doctrines of men.  It is easy to say my church's traditions are of the Apostles and yours are of man.   But then you have to prove it.  Protestants traditions do not just come from the Bible but from  the Protestant fathers, 1500 years later:  The early church did not believe in sola scriptura (there was no compiled New Testament for a few hundred years), they did not believe in justification by faith alone (a Luther invention), and they certainly didn't believe the community (church) had nothing to do with salvation (this wasn't in their culture), and they believed in the real presence of communion (historical fact: note Justin Martyr, Ignatious, Ireanous and of course Paul in I Cor 10).

Quote
It was men who institutionalized it and separated the clergy and exalted it. It was man who gave tiles and rank to clergy and put on special garments as to be set apart to be called Rabbi Rabbi.    

This was true in Jewish society.   People with honor were treated accordingly.  It was true then and now.   Do we not give respect to the President?

Quote
This is not to say there are to be leaders whom we are to respect, but I believe the apostles did nothing to call attention to themselves as to be over anyone.

But the Apostles were "over" people.   Note too that the church established "overseers" (bishops).    There is nothing wrong with authority.

Quote
Even when certain people of a town tried to worship Paul and Silas they said no we are just men like you. for this they ran them out of town.

Worship is not the same thing as honor.   I honor many people but only worship God. I bet you do too.

Quote
Think now this is how it was long before we were made to see grand cathedrals and with popes cardinals and all this other exalted priest hood that institutionalizes the church as a thing, a hierarchy of religious piety

I understand that cathedral may not be your thing (I am American too), but they are also a way of honoring the Lord.

Quote
and A place we go to on Sunday. Yes we should gather to Worship, but we glorify him as one who is given not to an institution but to Him.

Protestants are always pitting God against the Church.   But we see in Ephesians the church is the Bride of Church.  Jesus loves the church!

Quote
I gather with others and help bring Christ to the poor on Sunday and we worship under a tree. Are we not doing in His name and are we not the church just as much as in any church with a steeple?

Nothing wrong with worshipping outside, and I am sure you are worshipping the same God that I do.  But note that when two or three or gathered in name, the Scripture doesn't call this the church, but that He is with them.  A family gathered in prayer includes God among them but it is not the church.  No one in the early church thought this, but, these days, many Protestants do.

Quote
Jesus ministered in the streets and on mountainsides. there is nothing wrong with going to a place of worship as we do not worship it but Him who sits at the right hand of God. It is not the place of worship or the clergy system that is the only vehicle to Christ for is truly institutionalizes the church. Jesus told the women at the well that that day has come when you will not worship on your mountain nor In Jerusalem but the true worshipers will worship God in spirit and in truth

God bless

To end on a good note, I can agree here.   Can you accept that some find more comfort worshipping in a cathedral than others?  

Thanks for reading.

Hello Tirifecta. thank for reading my post. I have read your comments and will respond directly.  Let me ask you a quick question.

Who has saved you? 
I will be back

The issue is not where we worship but who we worship and how do we worship him. What constitutes true worship? Do we channel true worship the the thing, the institution, the place we church. or is it through the spirit ? Is it a life of going to church or is a life given to Christ

God bless
God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 08:10:34

The issue is not where we worship but who we worship and how do we worship him. What constitutes true worship? Do we channel true worship the the thing, the institution, the place we church. or is it through the spirit ? Is it a life of going to church or is a life given to Christ

God bless

No, It's not the issue mclees.

Where and how we worship is important. Do we worship in our way or in God's way?

Modern Protestants have privatised Christianity. It's egocentric not Christcentric It reduces Christianity to a "personal relationship with Christ

Quote from: winsome on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 08:29:20

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 08:10:34

The issue is not where we worship but who we worship and how do we worship him. What constitutes true worship? Do we channel true worship the the thing, the institution, the place we church. or is it through the spirit ? Is it a life of going to church or is a life given to Christ

God bless

No, It's not the issue mclees.

Where and how we worship is important. Do we worship in our way or in God's way?

Modern Protestants have privatised Christianity. It's egocentric not Christcentric It reduces Christianity to a "personal relationship with Christ

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 11:50:22

Quote from: winsome on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 08:29:20

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 08:10:34

The issue is not where we worship but who we worship and how do we worship him. What constitutes true worship? Do we channel true worship the the thing, the institution, the place we church. or is it through the spirit ? Is it a life of going to church or is a life given to Christ

God bless

No, It's not the issue mclees.

Where and how we worship is important. Do we worship in our way or in God's way?

Modern Protestants have privatised Christianity. It's egocentric not Christcentric It reduces Christianity to a "personal relationship with Christ

Quote from: winsome on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 13:26:47

I don't believe in denominationalism either. I believe in the one true Catholic Church. All these (Protestant) denominations are an abomination.

Aren't you really saying "Outside the Church No Salvation?" Christ has made the Catholic Church the means by which all men are to enter into heaven, and must be believed by Catholics? All others not remaining, or refusing to become united to the Pope cannot be saved.

Quote from: larry2 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 18:18:16

Quote from: winsome on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 13:26:47

I don't believe in denominationalism either. I believe in the one true Catholic Church. All these (Protestant) denominations are an abomination.

Aren't you really saying "Outside the Church No Salvation?" Christ has made the Catholic Church the means by which all men are to enter into heaven, and must be believed by Catholics? All others not remaining, or refusing to become united to the Pope cannot be saved.

No, I don't say that and the Catholic Church doesn't say that either.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 04:05:20

Quote from: larry2 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 18:18:16

Quote from: winsome on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 13:26:47

I don't believe in denominationalism either. I believe in the one true Catholic Church. All these (Protestant) denominations are an abomination.

Aren't you really saying "Outside the Church No Salvation?" Christ has made the Catholic Church the means by which all men are to enter into heaven, and must be believed by Catholics? All others not remaining, or refusing to become united to the Pope cannot be saved.

No, I don't say that and the Catholic Church doesn't say that either.

When did that change? I have an Axiom "Outside the Church - No Salvation" in my Catholic dictionary that requires all men to be joined to the Roman Catholic Church which I print below.

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith.

Quote from: larry2 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 05:23:28

Quote from: winsome on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 04:05:20

Quote from: larry2 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 18:18:16

Quote from: winsome on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 13:26:47

I don't believe in denominationalism either. I believe in the one true Catholic Church. All these (Protestant) denominations are an abomination.

Aren't you really saying "Outside the Church No Salvation?" Christ has made the Catholic Church the means by which all men are to enter into heaven, and must be believed by Catholics? All others not remaining, or refusing to become united to the Pope cannot be saved.

No, I don't say that and the Catholic Church doesn't say that either.

When did that change? I have an Axiom "Outside the Church - No Salvation" in my Catholic dictionary that requires all men to be joined to the Roman Catholic Church which I print below.

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith.

Hi Larry,

You are right and I answered your post too hastily. I did not read your phrasing carefully enough and took it to be the usual claim that Catholics believe all Protestants are damned. Please accept my apologies for that and I withdraw my comment and also the comment that [Protestant] denominations are an abomination as being uncharitable to my Protestant brothers and sisters.

God bless

winsome

Quote from: winsome on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 05:52:36

Quote from: larry2 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 05:23:28

Quote from: winsome on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 04:05:20

Quote from: larry2 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 18:18:16

Quote from: winsome on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 13:26:47

I don't believe in denominationalism either. I believe in the one true Catholic Church. All these (Protestant) denominations are an abomination.

Aren't you really saying "Outside the Church No Salvation?" Christ has made the Catholic Church the means by which all men are to enter into heaven, and must be believed by Catholics? All others not remaining, or refusing to become united to the Pope cannot be saved.

No, I don't say that and the Catholic Church doesn't say that either.

When did that change? I have an Axiom "Outside the Church - No Salvation" in my Catholic dictionary that requires all men to be joined to the Roman Catholic Church which I print below.

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith.

Hi Larry,

You are right and I answered your post too hastily. I did not read your phrasing carefully enough and took it to be the usual claim that Catholics believe all Protestants are damned. Please accept my apologies for that and I withdraw my comment and also the comment that [Protestant] denominations are an abomination as being uncharitable to my Protestant brothers and sisters.

God bless

winsome

No ! Salvation is not contingent upon  any membership period. You cannot just simply join any organized church catholic or protestant and be saved. This idea is an abomination and insult to Christ who gave himself freely to suffer for our sins and raise from the dead to secure salvation for all that believe that he is the Christ the Son of the living God.

Who are these  people who wrote these things? They were not of Christ but of an organized church system that so arrogantly channel salvation through it. instead of our faith in Christ. They are worse than robbers. this is not biblical or the gospel of Christ.

You now say there is not salvation out side the church, which Catholics is to say there is no salvation out side of ones affiliation to the church of Rome. They taught you this but It did not come from Christ


There is no salvation out side the church seems right and one could say that to some degree. The trick here is who is the church. You say the church is the institution of papal Rome but they are an exalted clergy that has set them selves apart and above the laity. They are now looked to as representing and being the church but from the beginning the apostle represented the authority but they were not the church as any whole nor were the exalted above the believers  From the beginning the church consisted of all who believed that Jesus was Lord. They became the adopted sons of God by there confession of faith in Christ. No membership just salvation freely given by grace.   The apostle were not exalted but common amongst the body. they were respected as  the apostles but they did not represent any organized church system that required membership like some club to secure salvation. What abomination!!   

What is more correct and not misleading is " there is no salvation out side of faith in Christ". No disrespect of leadership or recognizing  authority. They are just of the body of Christ like all believers.

God bless

Dear mclees8, to say they're are not children of God because they believe that way to me is wrong, because again it is based on Jesus dieing for us, and our belief that He did. Their doctrine of "Outside the Church-No salvation, is not much different than SDA believing all are lost for not observing the Sabbath, or the COC believing you must be baptized in their tank, or any amount of law keepers among us thinking it depends on ourselves to keep ourselves saved.

We're told to not despise another brother just they believe in not eating something, or they put one day above another; God receives them. It's like you using the scripture "They became the adopted sons of God by there confession of faith in Christ" When you get right down to it we are adopted to the benefits of a child of God, but we are really Born of God. I came out of the Catholic Church, and I can guarantee you most all I know from there believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and that is the criteria of salvation to my thinking.

You said the following: "Who are these people who wrote these things? They were not of Christ but of an organized church system that so arrogantly channel salvation through it instead of our faith in Christ. They are worse than robbers. This is not biblical or the gospel of Christ." Because they were taught, and believe these things does not justify they are not of God, and it is only Jesus Who will judge them.

My thoughts.

Quote from: larry2 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 08:33:37

Dear mclees8, to say they're are not children of God because they believe that way to me is wrong, because again it is based on Jesus dieing for us, and our belief that He did. Their doctrine of "Outside the Church-No salvation, is not much different than SDA believing all are lost for not observing the Sabbath, or the COC believing you must be baptized in their tank, or any amount of law keepers among us thinking it depends on ourselves to keep ourselves saved.

We're told to not despise another brother just they believe in not eating something, or they put one day above another; God receives them. It's like you using the scripture "They became the adopted sons of God by there confession of faith in Christ" When you get right down to it we are adopted to the benefits of a child of God, but we are really Born of God. I came out of the Catholic Church, and I can guarantee you most all I know from there believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and that is the criteria of salvation to my thinking.

You said the following: "Who are these people who wrote these things? They were not of Christ but of an organized church system that so arrogantly channel salvation through it instead of our faith in Christ. They are worse than robbers. This is not biblical or the gospel of Christ." Because they were taught, and believe these things does not justify they are not of God, and it is only Jesus Who will judge them.

My thoughts.

Then let me put it another then Larry. What they say is not of God. I do not despise any man but misrepresentation is even hated by God. You say that you left the catholic church. Why and where did you go? I don't see the church as catholic or Protestant and God has no pet denomination that believes it has the exclusive way of salvation. The church is the church and all will be judged out of it. He alone will separate the sheep from the goats and the tares from the wheat. He will also separate the truth from the lie. 

Yes Larry most are true in their faith to Christ. they are very sincere Godly people. Now that the true gospel is no longer denied them. but they are being lied to about what constitutes their salvation. No one is saved by any membership. they teach these things to keep them in bondage to a wrong idea that he papacy and the clergy system is the church. therefore no one is saved outside of it.


God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 07:40:15
No ! Salvation is not contingent upon  any membership period. You cannot just simply join any organized church catholic or protestant and be saved. This idea is an abomination and insult to Christ who gave himself freely to suffer for our sins and raise from the dead to secure salvation for all that believe that he is the Christ the Son of the living God.

To answer this properly we need to understand salvation. Salvation is not some one off event. I do not believe in OSAS. Salvation is a journey. It had a start and it has an end.

We can say
I have been saved
I am being saved
I hope to be saved.

That journey starts with Baptism when  we were made children of God, when we came into the New Covenant, when we were transferred from the power of darkness to the kingdom of Christ (Col 1:13 & Acts 26:18).  It also makes us members of the body of Christ – the Church.

But that is only our first step. We need to continue on that journey and not fall by the wayside and turn back to darkness.
Now I would remind you, brothers and sisters, of the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you. (1Cor 15:1-2)

As I keep saying it is primarily though the sacraments that Christ gives us the strength for the journey. It is with his Body and Blood that he feeds us in the Eucharist. It is in Reconciliation that he picks us up and reconciles us.

Grace is freely given, but not forced on us. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God (Heb 12:15). We have to ask for it in humility.

You believe you gain salvation through your own efforts, without the Church, without Christ's grace from the sacraments.

Anyways dear brethren, I'm out of this again, and only wanted to address one facet of it. God bless you all and be kindly to one another in the love of Jesus.