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Well, looking back on it several thousand years later, the specific numbers don't seem to be all that significant to the overall accuracy of your well articulated history lesson.

{Am I a suck-up, or what.  }

Quote from: OneLung on Mon Mar 30, 2009 - 14:00:41
Well, looking back on it several thousand years later, the specific numbers don't seem to be all that significant to the overall accuracy of your well articulated history lesson.

{Am I a suck-up, or what.  }

You know how they say no-one likes a suck up?

That's not true at all.  

The original Jews were semites, but they were something else before Judaism came along as a religion. This was an area of tribes and kingdoms, the origins of which are largely lost in time. The original Jews were of a common ancestry because of their tight borders and families were close knit as a result.

And Judaism is ONLY a religion now. No such thing as a people or race.

Zionism is attempting to renew that belief. The last people who attempted it were the nazis.



x

 

Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt, not the Jews.  The Jews did not exist until after the death of King Solomon and his kingdom divided into separate countries- Judah and Israel.  The Kingdom of Judah included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and some of the Levites (who lived in cities within the tribal lands of Judah and Benjamin).  The Kingdom of Israel included the other Israelite tribes and the rest of the Levites.  I don't know the verse right off, but the first time the term Jews is used in the Bible was when the Kingdom of Israel and its Syrian allies went to war with the Jews.

There is no distinct Jewish ethnicity.  If I'm not mistaken, of all of the tribes of the Israelites only the tribes of Benjamin and the tribes that came from Joseph's sons Manasseh and Ephraim were full-blooded brothers- Joseph and Benjamin.  But the Benjamites became Jews while the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim became non-Jews even though they were the most closely related of Jacob's descendants.  And at the same time Levites are found among both Jews and non-Jews.

Quote from: OneLung on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 19:48:15
So they were less then 100 people, all members of the same family who left Palestine and entered Egypt, but didn't like the rules of the new government, so they had to leave and go back.

Did they bring their Jewish belief in one true God with them to Egypt or did that come later?

The Jews that were in Egypt were descendants of Jacob and his 12 sons. They were given the land of Goshen by one Pharaoh and subjugated into slavery by a Pharaoh who came to power and did not know of Joseph. He feared that the Hebrews, who were great in number, would overrun his kingdom. God interceeded for the Hebrews (Jews) thru Moses and freed them from their bondage.

Jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are Jews, K-funk.

Quote from: OneLung on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 15:25:05
I know that Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, but who were these people and why did they have to, or want to, leave Egypt?

Jews were the descendants of Israel (Jacob). In Abraham's time they were Hebrews and went into Egypt under that name. The race was kept pure and is known now as descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to differentiate from Abraham, Ishmael and Jacob.

They had to leave Egypt because God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and so they journeyed there under much duress.

That is a bit simplistic but I think it covers the main point. 

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 16:05:23

Quote from: OneLung on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 15:25:05
I know that Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, but who were these people and why did they have to, or want to, leave Egypt?

They were the decendents of the sons of Jacob:

Exo 1:1  Now these are the names of the sons of Israel, who came into Egypt (every man and his household came with Jacob):
Exo 1:2  Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah,
Exo 1:3  Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin,
Exo 1:4  Dan and Naphtali, Gad and Asher.
Exo 1:5  And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: and Joseph was in Egypt already.
Exo 1:6  And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
Exo 1:7  And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them.
Exo 1:8  Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who knew not Joseph.
Exo 1:9  And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:
Exo 1:10  come, let us deal wisely with them, lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they also join themselves unto our enemies, and fight against us, and get them up out of the land.
Exo 1:11  Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh store-cities, Pithom and Raamses.

They had come there to be taken care of by their sibling Joseph who had been sold by his brothers into slavery and had ultimately elevated himself into Pharoah's household. Jacob and his brothers came into Egypt seeking food because of a severe famine in Canaan. They stayed in Egypt and multiplied greatly and were subjugated by a new Pharoah, until Moses dellivered them. I assume God wanted them back in their promised land.

Quote from: OneLung on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 20:24:59
Is the Egyption root of that Monotheism the origin of what would become the Hebrew religion?

Answer: No.

The oldest existing archaeological artifact of religion is with the Babylonian Tablets, which also gives a creation account. The religious account in the tablets refers to a system of pagan worship, about Sargon I (3800 B.C.) whom the Sumerians called 'son of Bel'. The tablets contain a Sumerian history which pre-dated ancient Babylonia. The first peoples in that area were known as Sumerians.

There was a time in ancient Egypt when Hebrews actually ruled the Lower Kingdom for around 500 years. They were called Hyksos (nicknamed Shepherd Kings). Ethiopia also has an earlier history of Hebrew origin. The point? We can't always assume a people that have dwelt in one area of the earth over long periods were 'always' there from the beginning.

The Egyptian's polytheism points to origins from elsewhere, like ancient Sumer/Babylonia, the seed of later pagan religions. Amenhoptep IV did a unique thing with his worship of Aten in Thebes (?), setting up a type of monotheistic system to replace the existing polytheism of the Egyptian priest class. As soon as he was dead, the priests struck Aten worship down, and removed his name from Egyptian monuments, and moved worship out of Thebes. Aten worship was actually worship of the sun. So it's not comparable with Hebrew worship of the one GOD Who told Moses His sacred Name.

The Genesis events were written down by Moses, which shows that the earliest descedents of Adam had knowledge of The one GOD, and how He was to be worshipped at that time. It is in direct opposite contrast to the religious worship of the ancient Sumer/Babylonians, Egyptians, Assyrians, etc.

That the Hyksos were the Hebrews is a point that is NOT AT ALL agreed on by historical scholars.

In fact, that opinion belongs mostly to that class of books which run under the heading "historical speculation."

EGYPT
Antiquity and dynasties.-The antiquity of the colonization of Egypt by Noah's descendants is shown by the record of the migration of the PHILISTINES from CAPHTOR (which see), which must have been before Abram's arrival in Palestine, for the Philistines were then there. The Caphtorim sprang from the Mizraim or Egyptians (Gen 10:13-14; Jer 47:4; Amos 9:7). The Egyptians considered themselves and the Negroes, the red and the black races, as of one stock, children of the god Horus; and the Shemites and Europeans, the yellow and the white, as of another stock, children of the goddess Pesht. No tradition of the flood, though found in almost every other country, is traceable among them, except their reply to Solon (Plato, Tim., 23) that there had been many floods. There are few records of any dynasty before the 18 th, except those of the 4 th and 12 th; but the names of the Pharaohs of the first six dynasties have been found, with notices implying the complete organization of the kingdom (Rouge, Recherches). The Memphite line under the 4 th dynasty raised the most famous pyramids. The shepherd kings came from the East as foreigners, and were obnoxious to native Egyptians. Indeed so intense was Egyptian prejudice that foreigners, and especially Easterners, are described as devils; much in the same way as the Chinese regard all outside the Celestial empire. A Theban line of kings reigned in Upper Egypt while the shepherds were in Lower. Hence arose the opinion that a shepherd king, not a native Egyptian, was the foreigner Joseph's patron; Apophis is generally named. Pharaoh's invitation to Joseph's family to settle in Goshen (Gen 46:34; 47:6), not among the Egyptians, may indicate a desire to strengthen himself against the Egyptian party. The absence of mention of the Israelites on the monuments would be accounted for by the troubled character of the times of the shepherd kings. But see below.

The authorities for Egyptian history are (1) the monuments; (2) the papyri (the reading of hieroglyphics having been discovered by Young and Champollion from the trilingual inscription, hieroglyphics, enchorial or common Egyptian letters, and Greek, in honor of Ptolemy Epiphanes, on the Rosetta stone); (3) the Egyptian priest Manetho's fragments in Josephus, containing the regal list beginning with gods and continued through 30 dynasties of mortals, from Menes to Nectanebo, 343 B.C., these fragments abound in discrepancies; (4) accounts of Greek visitors to Egypt after the Old Testament period. The two most valuable papyri are the Turin papyrus published by Lepsius; and the list of kings in the temple of Abydos, discovered By Mariette, which represents Seti I with his son Rameses II worshipping his 76 ancestors, beginning with Menes. The interval between the 6 th and 11 th dynasties is uncertain, the monuments affording no contemporary notices. The kings of this period in Manetho's list were probably rulers of parts only of Egypt, contemporary with other Pharaohs. The Pharaohs of the 12 th dynasty, and the early kings of the 13 th, were lords of all Egypt, which the shepherd kings were not; the latter must therefore belong to a subsequent period. Sculpture and architecture were at their height in the 12 th dynasty, and the main events of the time are recorded in many inscriptions. From the fourth king of the 13 th dynasty to the last of the 17 th, the period of the Hyksos or shepherd kings, the monuments afford no data for the order of events. The complete list of the ancestors of Seti I gives no Pharaoh between Amenemha, the last king of the 12 th dynasty, and Aahmes or Amosis, the first of the 18 th, who expelled the Hyksos. From the 18 th dynasty Egypt's monumental history and the succession of kings are somewhat complete, but the chronology uncertain. No general era is based on the ancient inscriptions. Apephis or Apepi was the last of the Hyksos, Ta-aaken Rasekenen the last of the contemporary Egyptian line.
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998 by Biblesoft)

The pagan Egyptians were great historical REVISIONISTS, just like the ones who exist today. They even tried to erase the history of Amenhoptep after his death who did away with polytheism for a while to setup worship of Aten. It's not unusual that they tried to do the same with the Hyksos who ruled Lower Egypt for around 500 years per some historical accounts. The bottom line is there is history recorded about the Hyksos or shepherd kings, even though today's secular revisionists may not like that fact.

That that the Hyksos were there in Egypt and enjoyed power a while is an indisputable fact.

What's NOT established is that the Hyksos were the Biblical Israelites.  Not at all.

More to the point, the Bible offers internal evidence that entire period of the capitivity occurred AFTER the period of the shepherd kings:

Gen 46:34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, [and] also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd [is] an abomination unto the Egyptians.

Archaeological evidence appears to point to a later date:

The first archaelogical appearance of the name "Israel" occurs in the 13th century BC, which is roughly 200 years after the end of the Hyksos-controlled 17th dynasty.

The Bible indicates there were already Philistines near Beersheba at the time of Abraham.  Philistines first appear in Egyptian records in the early 13th century BC.  The farther north one goes the earlier they appear in the records (first mention is 18th century at Byblos), and digs near Beersheba have found evidence of Philistines that can be dated variously between the 13th - 16th centuries BC.  All of these dates are AFTER the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt.

The Bible indicates that the Israelites under Joshua burnt the city of Hazor to the ground.  Archaeological evidence at the ancient site shows that the city had a catastrophic fire in the 13th century BC.

And then there are questions of whether the early Israelites are not properly identified in the Amarna letters (14th century) as the 'Apiru, or "the sons of Lab-ayu."

Jarrod

Note again what Fausset's dictionary suggests:

"A Theban line of kings reigned in Upper Egypt while the shepherds were in Lower. Hence arose the opinion that a shepherd king, not a native Egyptian, was the foreigner Joseph's patron; Apophis is generally named. Pharaoh's invitation to Joseph's family to settle in Goshen (Gen 46:34; 47:6), not among the Egyptians, may indicate a desire to strengthen himself against the Egyptian party. The absence of mention of the Israelites on the monuments would be accounted for by the troubled character of the times of the shepherd kings."

ETHIOPIA
The country which we now know as Abyssinia was largely controlled, from the earliest known date, by a Caucasian people who had crossed the Red Sea from Arabia.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

If Caucasian Semites were in that area in earliest times, then it goes to reason they also were in ancient Egypt, since both areas were closely allied.

The name Hebrew is derived from Eber, a descendent of Shem (Gen.10). Abraham was a descendent of Eber, and is why Abraham was known as a Hebrew. But the Hebrews included a large number of Semitic peoples from Shem, some of which had already been established in the areas of Egypt and Ethiopia in earliest times. The Israelites were simply a later separate branch of Hebrews from Eber. Because of that, it's more than probable that even Joseph's wife was a Hebrew Semite, but called an Egyptian because of being from Egypt.  A secular fallacy of today is the idea that all Egyptians were of the Black race, that the Black race came from Ham, which is also often applied to the all Ethiopians. That's not historically accurate.

All that still has very little to do with the Jews, because the name 'Jew' is derived from the sole tribe of Judah, from only one of the sons of Jacob who came much later than Eber and Shem. And the name Jew became prominent in usage mainly after God split Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 forward.

And again, a critical reading of the Old Testament is against the idea.

And again, all the archaeological evidence points to a date later than the end of the Hyksos dynasties for the period of the exile and exodus.

90% of the Israeli Jews, in the Middle East have No tie to Israel or the ancient Israelites

They are Turkish Mongols from Khazaria, and CONVERTS in the 7th century.
Ever wondered why Alan Dershowitz doesnt look Semitic or Arab Like?  Its because hes not


'The word JEW originated in the 18th Century- an abbreviation of Judean, a resident of Judea, without regard to race or religion.
Judeans werent of the Tribe of Judah, but of Edomites.
Jews are not descendants of the tribe of Judah: most so-called Jews are not Hebrews or even Semites but Sephardim (Canaanites) or Ashkenazim (Khazars).

'JEW is loosely used to encompass Hebrews, Israelites and Judahites, which most so-called Jews are not.
There was no such word of this spelling before 16th AD, this new word has a meaning contrary to the Scriptural words it has replaced.
Most Jews in the days of our Lord were not a Semitic people (Matt 23:33-35; JN 8:33-34; Rev 2:9; 3:9

When Jesus was in Judea, it was not the "homeland" of the ancestors of those who today style themselves "Jews". Their ancestors never set a foot in Judea. They existed at that time in Asia, their "homeland", and were known as Khazars.
JEW originated in the 18th Cent- abbreviation of Judean, a resident of Judea without regard to race or religion'

-Benjamin Freedman, Jewish author and historian

Conversely, more than half of those living in Iran have Hebrew DNA. 

And the Historic Hebrews were definitely Semitic.

Romans 2.29

Quote from: dp on Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 03:28:36
Note again what Fausset's dictionary suggests:


The name Hebrew is derived from Eber, a descendent of Shem (Gen.10). Abraham was a descendent of Eber, and is why Abraham was known as a Hebrew. But the Hebrews included a large number of Semitic peoples from Shem, some of which had already been established in the areas of Egypt and Ethiopia in earliest times. The Israelites were simply a later separate branch of Hebrews from Eber. Because of that, it's more than probable that even Joseph's wife was a Hebrew Semite, but called an Egyptian because of being from Egypt.  A secular fallacy of today is the idea that all Egyptians were of the Black race, that the Black race came from Ham, which is also often applied to the all Ethiopians. That's not historically accurate.

All that still has very little to do with the Jews, because the name 'Jew' is derived from the sole tribe of Judah, from only one of the sons of Jacob who came much later than Eber and Shem. And the name Jew became prominent in usage mainly after God split Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 forward.

This is wrong.

Hebrew is a loan word from Egyptian...the original word being "Apiru" meaning "Homeless wanderer"
Egypt was a farming community...everybody who was anything was involved with the farming trade. Every farm had a family and extended family that ran the farm. (family land...go figure)

A person who was homeless and a wanderer was usually subjected to slavery. Their own family had rejected them for some behavioral or appearance issue...such as sleeping on guard duty.

Abraham was called the "King of the Hebrews"....for a reason. Abraham took in these homeless people gave them a chance at life with position "in his tent" or in his family of wanderers. They had a good life and were taken care of and given tasks. In a day when there were no social services this was seen as quite an opportunity...this was their only chance at life. When the trained men went out to fight for Abraham they fought as if they had nothing to lose...because they didn't. Without Abraham they would have no tomorrow.

This theme and truth is seen repeated over and over again in scripture but largely goes unnoticed. God always wants the rejects...and makes the "least" and rejected the greatest and the most...

Jews on the other hand was and is a contraction for Judaism followers....coming originally from the tribe of Judah. John uses this word and expression a lot.

where this other stuff comes from...anybody's guess.

PS:

Did anyone look up Romans 2.29?

Quote from: farouk on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:27:58
PS:

Did anyone look up Romans 2.29?

Yes, and it is irrelevant to this discussion.  The discussion is about the ethnic roots of the nation of Israel.

Ur of the Chaldees is where Abraham came from... if we only knew were that was.

...but Paul goes to the root sense of being inwardly separated to God.

Quote from: Tantor on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:31:34

Quote from: farouk on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:27:58
PS:

Did anyone look up Romans 2.29?

Yes, and it is irrelevant to this discussion.  The discussion is about the ethnic roots of the nation of Israel.

Ur of the Chaldees is where Abraham came from... if we only knew were that was.

According to Daniel and evidense from the Babylonian empire it was in the neighborhood of southeastern Iran...along the Iraq border...near the sea. They were a race of people who watched the stars and astrologers...useful for navigating on water and desert.

Quote from: farouk on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:33:01
...but Paul goes to the root sense of being inwardly separated to God.

But that has nothing to do with this thread.

Quote from: JohnDB on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:34:46
useful for navigating on water and desert.

Don't you find that quite amusing since they wandered in the dessert for 40 years?.. granted it was quite a few generations past Abram himself.

Actually Paul in Romans 2 is seeking to link in Jewish heritage with original principles.

Quote from: Tantor on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:37:47

Quote from: farouk on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:33:01
...but Paul goes to the root sense of being inwardly separated to God.

But that has nothing to do with this thread.

Quote from: farouk on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:42:41
Actually Paul in Romans 2 is seeking to link in Jewish heritage with original principles.

Quote from: Tantor on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:37:47

Quote from: farouk on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:33:01
...but Paul goes to the root sense of being inwardly separated to God.

But that has nothing to do with this thread.

Maybe.. but that is not what this thread is about.

Quote from: Tantor on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:42:00

Quote from: JohnDB on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:34:46
useful for navigating on water and desert.

Don't you find that quite amusing since they wandered in the dessert for 40 years?.. granted it was quite a few generations past Abram himself.

Wandering was just an expression...LOL...Someone always knew where they were going and when...You think they couldn't have asked for directions sometime before then? I know we men can be stubborn about such things...but forty years?

Quote from: JohnDB on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 16:25:53

Quote from: dp on Wed Sep 23, 2009 - 03:28:36
Note again what Fausset's dictionary suggests:

The name Hebrew is derived from Eber, a descendent of Shem (Gen.10). Abraham was a descendent of Eber, and is why Abraham was known as a Hebrew. But the Hebrews included a large number of Semitic peoples from Shem, some of which had already been established in the areas of Egypt and Ethiopia in earliest times. The Israelites were simply a later separate branch of Hebrews from Eber.

This is wrong.

Hebrew is a loan word from Egyptian...the original word being "Apiru" meaning "Homeless wanderer"
Egypt was a farming community...everybody who was anything was involved with the farming trade. Every farm had a family and extended family that ran the farm. (family land...go figure)

A person who was homeless and a wanderer was usually subjected to slavery. Their own family had rejected them for some behavioral or appearance issue...such as sleeping on guard duty.

Abraham was called the "King of the Hebrews"....for a reason. Abraham took in these homeless people gave them a chance at life with position "in his tent" or in his family of wanderers. They had a good life and were taken care of and given tasks. In a day when there were no social services this was seen as quite an opportunity...this was their only chance at life. When the trained men went out to fight for Abraham they fought as if they had nothing to lose...because they didn't. Without Abraham they would have no tomorrow.

This theme and truth is seen repeated over and over again in scripture but largely goes unnoticed. God always wants the rejects...and makes the "least" and rejected the greatest and the most...

Actually, you're probably both right.  There is a tendency in Semitic languages to rename disliked things, places, groups with other words that sound similar but mean something insulting.

So it's very possible that Hebrew (possibly Ha-bi-roo), which does mean "of Eber,"  was mocked by the Egyptians as Apiru (Ah-pi-roo), which means "homeless."

An example?

The later Israelites referred to the temple of the Sun god, Beyth Shamash (House of Shamash), as Beyth Shemuwsh (House of Dung).

Then there is what they did to Baal Zebub...which makes him Lord of the Flies...literally

But Egypt is always called Misraim...or something along those lines wich does mean misery...it isn't transliterated in the Hebrew whatsoever...

so...there very well could be a lot of truth to what you are saying...but maybe not. Something definately to keep in the back of my head for future reference...

You remember Joseph and the coat of many colours? Joseph had 11 brothers and the twelve tribes of Israel are descended from those 12 people. There is a family tree here.

http://docs.google.com/View?id=d7z8q66_77dmpbxrcq

Eventually the tribe of Benjamin which was the smallest tribe united with the tribe of Judah and they became the Jews.

The other ten tribes migrated all over the world, some to Germany some to Britain, some to America, some to France and so on.

You can read about the life of Joseph and the Israelites in Genesis and it makes a thrilling read.

I advise you to start with Abraham who became the father of many nations as prophesied.

You need to know all this because much of Bible prophesy hinges on it.

A good place to begin reading is from Genesis chapter 25 (follow the link), it won't take long but take your time and really let it sink in so that you can inwardly digest and understand it. It explains so much.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+25&version=NIV

God bless.