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  Our relationship with others must be based on love, because God who is love is the source of our life. True love is always unconditional.  Therefore, when we love others, we do it irrespective of how they treat us and without expecting anything in return. God loved us first (1 John 4:11) by sacrificing His life for our sins although we rejected Him, were unfaithful to Him and killed Him.  He told Hosea (Hosea 3:1), to return to his wife although she was an adulteress.  God further told him to love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they were unfaithful to Him.  As true followers of Christ we must be in His Spirit by being faithful to our covenant with our spouse, even when there is unfaithfulness and hurt; and bring healing to our spouse by our prayers, sacrifices and support. We must love our spouse just as Christ loves us (Eph 5:25).   

   Some people quote Matthew's gospel (5:31-32) to justify divorce in case of unfaithfulness.  The word in the Greek text for allowing divorce is porneia (which means incest or fornication).  It referred to unlawful marriages between close relatives during Jesus' time, which were unlawful (Leviticus 18:6-18), because they were incestuous (porneia).  Note that the Greek word for adultery in verse 32 is moiceia (not porneia).  The exception therefore is for unlawful marriages.

Quote from: surrendersacrifice on Sat Nov 14, 2009 - 18:50:19
 Our relationship with others must be based on love, because God who is love is the source of our life. True love is always unconditional.  Therefore, when we love others, we do it irrespective of how they treat us and without expecting anything in return. God loved us first (1 John 4:11) by sacrificing His life for our sins although we rejected Him, were unfaithful to Him and killed Him.  He told Hosea (Hosea 3:1), to return to his wife although she was an adulteress.  God further told him to love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they were unfaithful to Him.  As true followers of Christ we must be in His Spirit by being faithful to our covenant with our spouse, even when there is unfaithfulness and hurt; and bring healing to our spouse by our prayers, sacrifices and support. We must love our spouse just as Christ loves us (Eph 5:25).  

  Some people quote Matthew's gospel (5:31-32) to justify divorce in case of unfaithfulness.  The word in the Greek text for allowing divorce is porneia (which means incest or fornication).  It referred to unlawful marriages between close relatives during Jesus' time, which were unlawful (Leviticus 18:6-18), because they were incestuous (porneia).  Note that the Greek word for adultery in verse 32 is moiceia (not porneia).  The exception therefore is for unlawful marriages.

AS I have said here before in reply to you, the word pornea does not just mean incest and fornication. It is a word used in various places in the Bible to mean various different types of sexual sin such as gay sex, bestiality, adultery, fornication, incest and others.Basically is means sexual immorality.Therefore it is perfectly justifiable for a spouse to end a marriage for any of these things After all in the past their sin would have meant that they were stoned to death and that is how seriously God views those terrible betrayals.
It is 100% up to the spouse who was sinned against as to whether they can continue the marriage or not. Some can and some cant. I don't condemn either.I know people who have done both.
Also it is often the one who has betrayed who ends the marriage anyway, so there is no choice in that case.
God knows what horrendous damage that sexual sin causes and that it breaks the covenant, and that is why he allows divorce for that reason.

yes we are to forgive but that doesn't mean that anyone has to stay with the person, and quite often it isn't possible anyway.I know a man whose wife had 4 affairs and showed no repentance or signs of stopping.Sometimes enough is enough as it seriously damages the rest of the family.

Loving a person unconditionally does not means allowing them to continually sin and cheat and betray. There is such a thing as tough love,.and we do reap what we sow.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 12:22:38

Quote from: surrendersacrifice on Sat Nov 14, 2009 - 18:50:19
  Our relationship with others must be based on love, because God who is love is the source of our life. True love is always unconditional.  Therefore, when we love others, we do it irrespective of how they treat us and without expecting anything in return. God loved us first (1 John 4:11) by sacrificing His life for our sins although we rejected Him, were unfaithful to Him and killed Him.  He told Hosea (Hosea 3:1), to return to his wife although she was an adulteress.  God further told him to love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they were unfaithful to Him.  As true followers of Christ we must be in His Spirit by being faithful to our covenant with our spouse, even when there is unfaithfulness and hurt; and bring healing to our spouse by our prayers, sacrifices and support. We must love our spouse just as Christ loves us (Eph 5:25).   

   Some people quote Matthew's gospel (5:31-32) to justify divorce in case of unfaithfulness.  The word in the Greek text for allowing divorce is porneia (which means incest or fornication).  It referred to unlawful marriages between close relatives during Jesus' time, which were unlawful (Leviticus 18:6-18), because they were incestuous (porneia).  Note that the Greek word for adultery in verse 32 is moiceia (not porneia).  The exception therefore is for unlawful marriages.

AS I have said here before in reply to you, the word pornea does not just mean incest and fornication. It is a word used in various places in the Bible to mean various different types of sexual sin such as gay sex, bestiality, adultery, fornication, incest and others.Basically is means sexual immorality.Therefore it is perfectly justifiable for a spouse to end a marriage for any of these things After all in the past their sin would have meant that they were stoned to death and that is how seriously God views those terrible betrayals.
It is 100% up to the spouse who was sinned against as to whether they can continue the marriage or not. Some can and some cant. I don't condemn either.I know people who have done both.
Also it is often the one who has betrayed who ends the marriage anyway, so there is no choice in that case.
God knows what horrendous damage that sexual sin causes and that it breaks the covenant, and that is why he allows divorce for that reason.

yes we are to forgive but that doesn't mean that anyone has to stay with the person, and quite often it isn't possible anyway.I know a man whose wife had 4 affairs and showed no repentance or signs of stopping.Sometimes enough is enough as it seriously damages the rest of the family.

Loving a person unconditionally does not means allowing them to continually sin and cheat and betray. There is such a thing as tough love,.and we do reap what we sow.

In Matthew (5:31,32) porneia refers to incestuous marriages that were unlawful but yet allowed by some rabbis. The exception was for some of these people who converted to Christianity.

In marriage husband and wife become one flesh.  Their bond is sealed by God.  Their relationship  therefore, is stronger than that between father and son. Therefore, it does not matter how bad one's spouse is, he/she is still that person's spouse; just as irrespective of how bad one's  son is he is still that person's son. As Christian we have to help our spouse when he/she falls, by our prayers and sacrifice.

Quote from: surrendersacrifice on Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 22:06:11

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Nov 15, 2009 - 12:22:38

Quote from: surrendersacrifice on Sat Nov 14, 2009 - 18:50:19
 Our relationship with others must be based on love, because God who is love is the source of our life. True love is always unconditional.  Therefore, when we love others, we do it irrespective of how they treat us and without expecting anything in return. God loved us first (1 John 4:11) by sacrificing His life for our sins although we rejected Him, were unfaithful to Him and killed Him.  He told Hosea (Hosea 3:1), to return to his wife although she was an adulteress.  God further told him to love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they were unfaithful to Him.  As true followers of Christ we must be in His Spirit by being faithful to our covenant with our spouse, even when there is unfaithfulness and hurt; and bring healing to our spouse by our prayers, sacrifices and support. We must love our spouse just as Christ loves us (Eph 5:25).  

  Some people quote Matthew's gospel (5:31-32) to justify divorce in case of unfaithfulness.  The word in the Greek text for allowing divorce is porneia (which means incest or fornication).  It referred to unlawful marriages between close relatives during Jesus' time, which were unlawful (Leviticus 18:6-18), because they were incestuous (porneia).  Note that the Greek word for adultery in verse 32 is moiceia (not porneia).  The exception therefore is for unlawful marriages.

AS I have said here before in reply to you, the word pornea does not just mean incest and fornication. It is a word used in various places in the Bible to mean various different types of sexual sin such as gay sex, bestiality, adultery, fornication, incest and others.Basically is means sexual immorality.Therefore it is perfectly justifiable for a spouse to end a marriage for any of these things After all in the past their sin would have meant that they were stoned to death and that is how seriously God views those terrible betrayals.
It is 100% up to the spouse who was sinned against as to whether they can continue the marriage or not. Some can and some cant. I don't condemn either.I know people who have done both.
Also it is often the one who has betrayed who ends the marriage anyway, so there is no choice in that case.
God knows what horrendous damage that sexual sin causes and that it breaks the covenant, and that is why he allows divorce for that reason.

yes we are to forgive but that doesn't mean that anyone has to stay with the person, and quite often it isn't possible anyway.I know a man whose wife had 4 affairs and showed no repentance or signs of stopping.Sometimes enough is enough as it seriously damages the rest of the family.

Loving a person unconditionally does not means allowing them to continually sin and cheat and betray. There is such a thing as tough love,.and we do reap what we sow.

In Matthew (5:31,32) porneia refers to incestuous marriages that were unlawful but yet allowed by some rabbis. The exception was for some of these people who converted to Christianity.

In marriage husband and wife become one flesh.  Their bond is sealed by God.  Their relationship  therefore, is stronger than that between father and son. Therefore, it does not matter how bad one's spouse is, he/she is still that person's spouse; just as irrespective of how bad one's  son is he is still that person's son. As Christian we have to help our spouse when he/she falls, by our prayers and sacrifice.

I have 2 friends who both separated and divorced their husbands when their children were sexually endangered. Are you suggesting they they should have stayed with their husbands?.(One was actually molesting his kids, and one was repeatedly looking at porn while his little children were playing around his feet, and he was supposed to be looking after them) Hmmm I don't think many here would tell them that they should have stayed married to their husbands.
Both spoke to church leaders, prayed a lot, and both were clear that God was telling them to divorce.Neither husbands were ever  allowed to have unsupervised visits with their children from that time on.(and then only occasionally)

There is no where in the Bible that suggests that anyone has to stay with a man or women who betrays the marriage covenant.or committs sexual immorality. Divorce in the Bible always ends the marriage. (read the women at the well where Jesus said she has been married to all five men.("you have had five husbands") This refutes your suggestion that we can only ever be joined to one person).


If we allow our spouse to carry on and on sinning then that is not loving. (as in the case of the man whose wife was on her 4th affair.) We all need to know that such terrible behaviour has consequenses and one of them may be that we loose our family. Love must sometimes be tough. It is not loving to watch our spouse sin their way into hell. It is sometimes loving them to allow them to loose their spouse and family . maybe that alone will bring them to their senses. The three peope I have mentioned all loved their spouses and that is why divorce is so painful. We love them but we do not allow their destructive behaviour to continue.Tough love.

.  I have just read the following on another forum on marriage, unfaithfuless and abuse. I though it was so good that I have copied it here.It follows on from what I said above.

!)  Enabling is a real sickness and a sin, too. Not holding someone acccountable for his sins makes us co-conspirators in that sin. Just as guilty. It is in our power to forgive, yet it isn't our right to run interference between a sinner and God's natural justice.

2. Sure, God can work miracles. But only on willing vessels. Never once did God perform a miracle on an unwilling recipient.

3. God hates divorce, sure. Just like he hates to see orphaned children, or maimed veterans or any other heartbreaking, yet inevitable tragedy that results from living in a sinful and broken world.

brilliant and so true.

3. God hates divorce, sure. Just like he hates to see orphaned children, or maimed veterans or any other heartbreaking, yet inevitable tragedy that results from living in a sinful and broken world.

brilliant and so true.


More relativism.

I agree with your overall point. I reject this reasoning big time. Its dangerous and has no business in Christian discourse. Substitute ANYTHING in there instead of divorce and therefore you can justify ANYTHING using this reasoning. Its massively flawed, and it takes people on the fence about divorce and shoves them on over to the other side.....wrongly.

Quote from: BAH-BLAH on Mon Nov 16, 2009 - 09:04:19
3. God hates divorce, sure. Just like he hates to see orphaned children, or maimed veterans or any other heartbreaking, yet inevitable tragedy that results from living in a sinful and broken world.

brilliant and so true.


More relativism.

I agree with your overall point. I reject this reasoning big time. Its dangerous and has no business in Christian discourse. Substitute ANYTHING in there instead of divorce and therefore you can justify ANYTHING using this reasoning. Its massively flawed, and it takes people on the fence about divorce and shoves them on over to the other side.....wrongly.

The reason that God hates divorce is that people get very hurt and families get broken up. I have never met a single person who doesnt hate divorce as God does.I certainly hate it.
What do you think he hates more? Adultery and betrayal or divorce?. A spouse beating up their husband /wife or divorce?. A child continuing to be in danger of sexual/physical abuse or divorce?
Divorce should be a last resort but it IS allowed for certain reasons..

Quote from: surrendersacrifice on Sat Nov 14, 2009 - 18:50:19
  Our relationship with others must be based on love, because God who is love is the source of our life. True love is always unconditional.  Therefore, when we love others, we do it irrespective of how they treat us and without expecting anything in return. God loved us first (1 John 4:11) by sacrificing His life for our sins although we rejected Him, were unfaithful to Him and killed Him.  He told Hosea (Hosea 3:1), to return to his wife although she was an adulteress.

Hosea and Gomer
By WmTipton

Some try to assert that Hosea and Gomer were foreshadows of marriage during this age of grace.
Let us see for ourselves what Hosea is about.

God TOLD Hosea to marry a harlot because of Isreals constant whoring / idolatry against Him.
He was showing, thru this prophet, how Israel was BREAKING the covenant He had made with them, and like a forgiving spouse, He had keep taking her back.

But God did not permit Israel, the nation as a whole, to continue in this.
In the book of Zechariah (11:10-11) He fully and finally broke / ended that covenant with them, as a nation.
One more prophet came ofter this, Malachi, then silence from God for over 400 years until John came out of the wilderness.

A brief read through of the first few verses in Hosea shows us clearly that it had nothing to do with all marriages, but was God showing Isreal through the life of this prophet what they had been doing to Him.

QuoteThe beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD. So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son. And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. (Hos 1:2-6)

Those who use Hosea for an argument also need to start doing every other thing in the OT commanded of His prophets.
God put away a covenant with a whoring nation and we may put away a whoring spouse, just as Jesus has confirmed .(Matt 5:32 and Matt 19:9)
The fact is Hosea and Gomer are irrelevant in the MDR discussion as NONE of us are directed by God to go marry a harlot. Only if we were could we even begin to apply this situation to our marriage and even then it would ONLY be applicable to that marriage itself, not the hundreds of millions of others in the world today.

2.0

Some use the absurd argument that Hosea and Gomer got back together, so therefore its 'ok' to go against Gods instruction that a DIVORCED woman cannot return to her former husband once REmarried, but the fact is Hosea did not put Gomer away as per the law by giving her a writ of divorce.
Like the example spoken of in Romans 7 where also there is no divorce given, this woman simply went out and joined with other men knowing full well that she was married still to Hosea, so of course being a MARRIED woman giving herself to men NOT her husband she would be called 'adulteress'.

Deut 24:4 does not apply in this case because there was no writ of divorce. The same applies to David and Michals situations where she was Davids lawful wife, yet was given to another man. David simply took back his wife that he had never put away. Hosea is exactly the same.

Quote from: surrendersacrifice on Sat Nov 14, 2009 - 18:50:19
   Some people quote Matthew's gospel (5:31-32) to justify divorce in case of unfaithfulness.  The word in the Greek text for allowing divorce is porneia (which means incest or fornication).  It referred to unlawful marriages between close relatives during Jesus' time, which were unlawful (Leviticus 18:6-18), because they were incestuous (porneia).  Note that the Greek word for adultery in verse 32 is moiceia (not porneia).  The exception therefore is for unlawful marriages.

I think youd better get back to your studies, friend ;)



Porneia...aka ''fornication''
By WmTipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that the greek word 'porneia' is all inclusive of sexual immorality

Supporting Evidence
Some claim that fornication in Matthew is PRE marital sex alone and that divorce and remarriage for any other reason is not permissible.
But we see that conflicts with the use of the word throughout the NT.
Porneia is whoredom, harlotry, illicit sex of any kind.
This included every sexual sin of every nature.
Sex with men, women, animals or any other perversion in existence or any new ones that a person can come up with.
This can be commited by anyone. A husband or wife or a single person.
When porneia (any sexual sin) is carried out by the married, the crime of adultery is committed.

Even the current English definition of ''fornication'' is against these false doctrine as it says NOTHING about Unmarried people, but only that the two engaging in ''fornication'' are not married to each other.

Here is the current definition...

Quote
Main Entry: for·ni·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "for-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Notice not a single word about either person being ''unmarried'.
One or both could be married to someone else, they just aren't married to EACH OTHER.
Or both could be single.

Fornication means just what porneia presents,...having sex with someone who ISN'T your lawful spouse, whether you're married or not.

Porneia is a word in the Greek language that much of the NT was written in originally.
It is not specifically a religious word, nor was it created to write about any specific sexual in in scripture and it does not center around religious intent/meaning, but simply is showing general sexual immorality regardless of its nature.
The word is as ambigious/subjective as the words 'sexual immorality' are. It is not limited to any specific sexually immoral act, but is used to blanketly speak about this type of 'immorality'.

Here is the greek word rendered as ''fornication'' in your KJV bibles.

QuoteG4202
porneia
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.

Also....

In Acts 15 and 21, four items are given for gentiles to abstain from as presented in the following verses.

QuoteAct 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication (G4202, same as the exception clause in Matthew).

Quote
1. Things offered to idols
2. blood
3. Things strangled
4. fornication (G4202 same as the exception clause).

I ask those who say fornication (porneia G4202) is premarital or betrothal sex only and not "adultery

FOC thank you for your clear explanations. There is so much rubbish around these days about divorce that I sometimes despair.Your posts were clear and to the point.

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Dec 07, 2009 - 05:03:26
FOC thank you for your clear explanations. There is so much rubbish around these days about divorce that I sometimes despair.Your posts were clear and to the point.

Hi, Chosen :)

I would just LOVE it if forum owners would stop allowing these doctrines to be posted.
If they only understood how they affect real people in real marriages when someone comes in and reads this nonsense and either thinks they have to divorce or worse, uses the false doctrine as an excuse to get out of a marriage.

Thanks for posting this thread.  It really helped