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This is a very interesting series on the schism.  Now, it's not really "about" the schism so much as it is about a lot of misunderstandings about the schism in regards to "Latin" vs "Greek" Christians.  It also traces a lot of the historical contexts that wound up making what today we call, "Rome" and how that effected the doctrines that Roman Catholics have built on and why they vary so much from the theology of the "Eastern" Christians. 

If you like Christian history, history of doctrine and or especially suffer from Romaphobia, this is interesting stuff!

I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on this.  Fr. Romanides' work on which this youtube video is based is also free and online.  Just googler.


God bless

QuoteIf you like Christian history, history of doctrine and or especially suffer from Romaphobia, this is interesting stuff!

What are Romaphobes?  Is that people who don't trust Rome because of their abusive history?  What does that make you, a CRomedependent?

Quote from: Amo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 - 21:43:29

QuoteIf you like Christian history, history of doctrine and or especially suffer from Romaphobia, this is interesting stuff!

What are Romaphobes?  Is that people who don't trust Rome because of their abusive history?  What does that make you, a CRomedependent?

Well, getting over that fear is sometimes as easy as just looking into the matter.  I wouldn't say I'm RC-dependant (good word) because I'm not Roman Catholic. 





God bless.   

QuoteWell, getting over that fear is sometimes as easy as just looking into the matter.  I wouldn't say I'm RC-dependant (good word) because I'm not Roman Catholic.

codependency : a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin);  broadly   : dependence on the needs of or control by another

One does not have to be an alcoholic, to be a codependent of the of one who is.  If they are manipulated and controlled into being a part of the alcoholics problem, then they are a codependent.  Just as you are with Rome.  You may not be an RC, but you are caught up in defending and supporting this false system through manipulated historical accounts and revisionist history.  The purpose of which, is to help justify the seriously abusive history of the Church of Rome.  If you think I am going to trash thirty years of study including much history in relation to the outrageous abuses of the Church of Rome because of a few videos you have posted, you should think again. 

No doubt there is some manipulated and revisionist history on both sides of the issue, but this in no way detracts from the countless historical records of the abuses of the Church of Rome upon humanity.  Many of her teachings alone are abusive, in that they are false, and therefore misleading.  She also simply refuses to untangle herself from the politics of this world, thus she cannot avoid abusive behavior.  The latest reports regarding the previous Pope John Paul, that he was seriously involved with self flagellation, are proof positive that Rome has not changed.  Those who are not only willing to harm themselves for their religion, but actually believe it is a virtue which brings them closer to God, most certainly will have no problem applying that mind set to harming others for the same purpose.

Quote
You may not be an RC, but you are caught up in defending and supporting this false system through manipulated historical accounts and revisionist history. 

1.  I'm not defending or supporting "this" false "system" (can you define what, "this" and "system" means to you here?).  I'm not defending Rome. 

2.  Could you reference which "historical accounts" I have manipulated so that I might see the error of my ways?  If I am doing this, it is subconscious.  Could you also provide me where I've offered, "revisionist" history.  Thank you.

QuoteThe purpose of which, is to help justify the seriously abusive history of the Church of Rome. 

Cool your jets turbo.  Firstly, you'll find no trace of this in my posts.  I'm not trying to justify the abuses and misconduct of anyone, let alone an entire sect of Christianity.  Second, why do you think my purpose is to help justify abuse?   Really?  That's a really strong accusation.  Like, I'm sitting back here thinking, "man, those horrible events and abuses really ought to be made to look and smell like flowers.  I know.  I'm going to revise history and make them look innocent." 


Really?

QuoteIf you think I am going to trash thirty years of study including much history in relation to the outrageous abuses of the Church of Rome because of a few videos you have posted, you should think again. 

Say what?  You obviously didn't watch the videos or you'd see this is hardly an apologetic of Roman Catholic abuses...   

Quote
No doubt there is some manipulated and revisionist history on both sides of the issue, but this in no way detracts from the countless historical records of the abuses of the Church of Rome upon humanity. 

I agree and this disposition toward Rome should also be applied to every denomination and sect that has such thorns in their past.   I mean, do the anger sharks start swimming when you hear a baptist preaching?  Does it remind you how their separatist and puritan fore-fathers went around buthcherin' the "savages", burned innocents by calling them witches etc.  Or is this simply reserved for Roman Catholics?

Quote
Many of her teachings alone are abusive, in that they are false, and therefore misleading. 

25,000 denominations that all believe contradictory things to the other (or there'd only be 1 denomination) and 50,000 sub-denominations (depending on how ya dice it) within that and growing...   Common sense tells us that two contradictory teachings can't be correct. 

If you held the protestant collective to the same standards as you do the Roman Catholics, the protestants would be just as abusive according to your book.  However, those collective Frankenstein-esque "teachings" don't register.  In that case they're just a bro or sis in Christ..... 

This is my whole point (though it wasn't until you saw the word Romaphobia).  Most people that rage against the Roman Catholics don't have much better to offer someone they're begging to come out of her. 

The sad fact is, is that this little announcer guy below can look into history and basically say the same thing about any denomination/sect.  Rome is just everyone's favorite scape-goat.


Come out of her because she has an abusive past! Come out of her because she teaches false doctrines!  Come out of her because she thinks she's the true Church! Come out of her and stop serving traditions of men!

QuoteShe also simply refuses to untangle herself from the politics of this world, thus she cannot avoid abusive behavior. 

Have you noticed the role of the protestants in forming entire government systems etc.    Some folks credit Calvin with capitalism....  Ever hear of Cromwell?   How many Roman Catholic US Presidents have there been?  Do you know anything about Zionists?

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The latest reports regarding the previous Pope John Paul, that he was seriously involved with self flagellation, are proof positive that Rome has not changed. 

Well, that's the Pope's business...  What's that got to do with you or me?  I mean, I could say, man, look at what the protestants did to slaves...  You think this type of behavior isn't still found in protestantism!!!???  Have you heard of the Westboro Baptists?  the Klu klux Klan?  (I'm not saying I believe this but using the same kind of stuff we all hear about Catholicism and using it to put a mirror up to the collective protestant body)

Westboro Baptists

QuoteThose who are not only willing to harm themselves for their religion, but actually believe it is a virtue which brings them closer to God, most certainly will have no problem applying that mind set to harming others for the same purpose.

Like I said.  We are often quick to point out the severe abuses of others in order to minimize our own abuses.  If you watch the videos I posted it talks about the Frankish Feudalism that wound up oppressing the poor and accounts for a lot of really really dark stuff in Roman Catholic history.  It shows a culture war, class struggle and an entirely outside influence that seemed to challenge and change Christians living in "Rome". 

It's by no means a spin job to make the Roman Catholics look shiny in spots where they have warts.  If anything, it just helps us understand how some of those warts grew and where they came from. 

Lord save us all.  Have mercy on me, the first among sinners....

No other Christian sect or denomination could even begin to compare with the sheer magnitude of abuses and murders perpetrated upon humanity through the Church of Rome.  Any and all who have ever persecuted or abused others in the name of Christ were apostate "Christians".  The following only scratches the surface.  

Excerpts from FACTS OF FAITH, Christian Edwardson

" Especially did she(Catholic Church) act thus in the
sixteenth century with regard to Protestants. Not content to reform
morally, to preach by example, to convert people by eloquent and
holy missionaries, she lit in Italy, in the Low Countries, and above
all in Spain the funeral piles of the Inquisition. In France under
Francis I and Henry II, in England under Mary Tudor, she tortured
the heretics, whilst both in France and Germany during the second
half of the sixteenth and the first half of the seventeenth century if
she did not actually begin, at any rate she encouraged and actively
aided, the religious wars. No one will deny that we have here a
great scandal to our contemporaries ...."The Catholic Church, the Renaissance, and Protestantism"


Pope Gregory IX (1227-1241) made the following decree for the
destruction of all heretics, which is binding on civil rulers:
"Temporal princes shall be reminded and exhorted, and if needs be,
compelled by spiritual censures, to discharge every one of their
functions: and that, as they desire to be reckoned and held faithful,
so, for the defence of the faith, let them publicly make oath that
they will endeavor, bona fide with all their might, to extirpate from
their territories all heretics marked by the Church; so that when
anyone is about to assume any authority, whether spiritual or
temporal, he shall be held bound to confirm his title by this oath.
And if a temporal prince, being required and admonished by the
Church, shall neglect to purge his kingdom from this heretical
pravity, the metropolitan and other provincial bishops shall bind
him in fetters of excommunication; and if he obstinately refuse to
make satisfaction this shall be notified within a year to the Supreme
Pontiff, that then he may declare his subjects absolved from their
allegiance, and leave their lands to be occupied by Catholics, who,
the heretics being exterminated, may possess them unchallenged,
and preserve them in the purity of the faith

QuoteNo other Christian sect or denomination could even begin to compare with the sheer magnitude of abuses and murders perpetrated upon humanity through the Church of Rome.  Any and all who have ever persecuted or abused others in the name of Christ were apostate "Christians".  The following only scratches the surface.  

Yeah, I'm aware of a lot of those horrible things.  Purty awful. 

... what's this have to do with the original post btw? 

Now that we got this off your chest (though it still seems to weigh heavily upon it) what do you think of the influence of Frankish rule (a Germanic peoples) and feudalism on Roman Catholic doctrine and the whole filioque issue (that the vast majority of protestants agree with the Roman Catholics on)? 

John S. Romanides makes a really interesting case and poses a lot of valid questions that don't seem to fit into what we often believe about the development of "Rome".

Did you know that a lot of protestant doctrines and theology is based on the same Latin Church Fathers that Rome recognizes?  Augustine and Aquinus is still very apparent in the majority of Protestant practice and belief. 

Anyway, if you'd like to read the work you can do so here:

http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.03.en.franks_romans_feudalism_and_doctrine.01.htm

Here's a sample of the index:

   1. Introduction
   2. Roman Revolutions and the Rise of Frankish Feudalism and Doctrine
   3. The Imperial Coronation of Charlemagne
   4. Roman Reactions to Charlemagnian Policies
   5. The Pseudo-Isidorean Decretals
   6. The Frankish Counterattack
   7. Conclusions

   8. Empirical Theology
   9. The Bible and Tradition
  10. Instruments, Observation, Concepts, and Language
  11. Diagnosis and Therapy
  12. The Rise of Monasticism, Its Contribution, and Decline
  13. Orthodox Spirituality, the Same in East and West
  14. Criteria for Reunion

  15. Historical Background
  16. The Theological Background
  17. The Significance of the Filioque Question



No need to argue about something we agree on in many respects.  God bless, Amo. 



*Feudalism is a decentralized sociopolitical structure in which a weak monarchy attempts to control the lands of the realm through reciprocal agreements with regional leaders.[1] In its most classic sense, feudalism refers to the Medieval European political system composed of a set of reciprocal legal and military obligations among the warrior nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals, and fiefs. Although derived from the Latin word feodum (fief), then in use, the term feudalism and the system it describes were not conceived of as a formal political system by the people living in the Medieval Period. - wiki

QuoteYeah, I'm aware of a lot of those horrible things.  Purty awful. 

... what's this have to do with the original post btw? 

Your original post seems to be leaning towards excuse for the Church of Rome, and the reason for her false doctrines.  While using the derogatory term of Romaphobia toward those who are rightly offended by her false doctrines, and concerned about her once again growing political power and influence in this world.

QuoteThis is a very interesting series on the schism.  Now, it's not really "about" the schism so much as it is about a lot of misunderstandings about the schism in regards to "Latin" vs "Greek" Christians.  It also traces a lot of the historical contexts that wound up making what today we call, "Rome" and how that effected the doctrines that Roman Catholics have built on and why they vary so much from the theology of the "Eastern" Christians.

There is no excuse, or justification for Christians being influenced and changed by the world around them, instead of the other way around.  Yes it happens to individuals and corporate bodies, but it is a sin to be confessed and forsaken.  Rome on the other hand has embraced the world, it's politics and methodology, and has not, is not, and will not repent.  She is an apostate entity which has a long history, and recent history of unrepentant abusive behavior and false teaching.  Her power and influence among the kings of the earth is on a steady rise, and she is doomed to repeat her totally abusive history.  She can do nothing else, being unrepentant and unchanged. 

QuoteIf you like Christian history, history of doctrine and or especially suffer from Romaphobia, this is interesting stuff!

Your derogatory comment above reveals your true intentions.  You are supporting and making excuses for Rome, while deriding those who are rightly concerned about the Church of Rome's false teachings and abusive long and short term history.  The real problem is the exact opposite of what you are insinuating above.  Far more people should be gravely concerned with Rome's steady rise to power and influence upon the nations of this earth than there presently are.  Let us examine the meaning of Romaphobia, by comparing it with the real word homophobia.

: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

For you to suggest the above concerning Rome by the word Romaphobia, for those who are extremely cautious of Rome is in and of itself irrational.  It reveals an underlying mindset, whether conscious or not, of support for Rome and her extremely abusive history.  There is of course good, sound, and rational reason for being and remaining suspicious of the Church of Rome.  As already mentioned, her recent and continuing rise of influence among the nations and religions of this world is not the least of these good, sound, and rational reasons to hold her under the suspicious eye.

Do not be fooled by Rome Ryan.  Her historical and recent endeavors to reunite with Orthodoxy are for the same reason as always, to subjugate the same to her manipulative authority.  So likewise as the Mother of apostate "Christianity

QuoteYour original post seems to be leaning towards excuse for the Church of Rome, and the reason for her false doctrines.  

It's not an excuse.  If you actually read the material and listen to the conversation it talks about how Frankish warlords moved in, conquer Rome and pretty much start a culture war - cleansing the "lower class" folks and using the "catholics" in that region to help solidify their cultural genocide.  In some cases they even replace bishops with their own.  The Frankish culture then winds up effecting certain doctrines.  

Just a FYI, many Orthodox were slaughtered by Roman Catholics at this time and even not to distant in our *recent past.  

It's hardly an excuse as to why Rome butchered our people.  

QuoteWhile using the derogatory term of Romaphobia toward those who are rightly offended by her false doctrines, and concerned about her once again growing political power and influence in this world.

The problem I see with Romaphobia is that it makes a lot of protestants that suffer from this totally blind to the fact that they have more in common with her than they realize.  The vast majority of Protestant doctrine concerning everything from "justification" and "Original Sin" and even doctrines on "heaven" and "hell" come from Rome.  If people weren't so spooked by Rome and actually studied her to see what makes her tick you'd find that a bulk of the Reformers works were actually just Roman Catholic doctrines brought to their logical conclusion.  

Quote
There is no excuse, or justification for Christians being influenced and changed by the world around them, instead of the other way around.  

I agree. Unless it's positive/good.

QuoteYes it happens to individuals and corporate bodies, but it is a sin to be confessed and forsaken.  

I agree.  

QuoteRome on the other hand has embraced the world, it's politics and methodology, and has not, is not, and will not repent.  She is an apostate entity which has a long history, and recent history of unrepentant abusive behavior and false teaching.  Her power and influence among the kings of the earth is on a steady rise, and she is doomed to repeat her totally abusive history.  She can do nothing else, being unrepentant and unchanged.  

Some would say the same of the protestant collective my friend.  And they would have just as many valid grievances to submit for consideration.  However, that's not really the purpose of the original post.  The point is just to get people to start asking questions and looking outside of their denominational boxes.  

QuoteYour derogatory comment above reveals your true intentions.  You are supporting and making excuses for Rome, while deriding those who are rightly concerned about the Church of Rome's false teachings and abusive long and short term history.  The real problem is the exact opposite of what you are insinuating above.  Far more people should be gravely concerned with Rome's steady rise to power and influence upon the nations of this earth than there presently are.  Let us examine the meaning of Romaphobia, by comparing it with the real word homophobia.

If you were as honest about Rome as the Protestant collective, you might have a point.  Problem is that this door swings in both directions.  Rome and the protestants are two sides of the same coin.  However, do I think that every protestant and every Roman Catholic is going to burn?  No.  God has mercy upon whom He has mercy.  Out of our jurisdiction.  If you were as "rightly concerned" about the state of Protestantism and her grip on the world, again, I might see that Truth is a higher value than your presuppositions about Rome.  

I'll put it this way.  A racist pretty much operates like so:  

They might have had a bad run in with a certain fellow or a group of fellows.  That person then takes that experience and applies it to every single fellow that happens to share the same race.  

The problem with using this same logic toward Rome is that you wind up missing the point.  You could mistake one of God's children for the so-called harlotry you seem so convinced of.  At the same time, you might want to consider that we often run across many images of this "harlot" we read about in the book of Revelations.  To limit this "harlot" to one entity takes all the other ones off the radar.  Even the ones that attend your local church.  

QuoteFor you to suggest the above concerning Rome by the word Romaphobia, for those who are extremely cautious of Rome is in and of itself irrational.  It reveals an underlying mindset, whether conscious or not, of support for Rome and her extremely abusive history.

I don't support her abusive history.  I don't support abusive history, period.  Not by any group.  Not by Orthodox, Protestants, Catholics or secular.  Calvin burned himself a heretic and said if he could do it all over again, he would.  Do I hold that against Calvinists?  No.  The Southern Baptists came about because they believed that slavery was supported in the scriptures apart from the Northern Baptists who were against it.  Civil war breaks out and viola, the Southern Baptists are founded.  Do I hold this against the Southern Baptists?  Nope.  I'm not going to let fear and paranoia rob me of the opportunity to love.  

QuoteThere is of course good, sound, and rational reason for being and remaining suspicious of the Church of Rome.  As already mentioned, her recent and continuing rise of influence among the nations and religions of this world is not the least of these good, sound, and rational reasons to hold her under the suspicious eye.

If that eye is too selective you might overlook your own sins my friend.  We have all been like Rome.  After all, Jesus said that hatred toward a brother is synonymous with a murderous heart.  Use that suspicious eye to avoid the logs that we all wind up getting poked in the eye with.  

QuoteDo not be fooled by Rome Ryan.  Her historical and recent endeavors to reunite with Orthodoxy are for the same reason as always, to subjugate the same to her manipulative authority.  

If you weren't so extreme in your views I would share with you some of the things Rome does to court the Orthodox that I disagree with.  If the Orthodox join Rome (God Willing they won't), I would really have no clue what to do.  However, if Rome wants to commune with the Orthodox they'll have to drop Papal Supremacy, Papal Infallibility, Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, Purgatory, her teachings on heaven and hell, recant the filioque and a buch of other "stuff".  

In short, it's a pretty safe bet that Roman Catholics and Orthodox won't be in communion any time soon.  However, with God, all things are possible.  

QuoteSo likewise as the Mother of apostate "Christianity

  

QuoteIt's not an excuse.  If you actually read the material and listen to the conversation it talks about how Frankish warlords moved in, conquer Rome and pretty much start a culture war - cleansing the "lower class" folks and using the "catholics" in that region to help solidify their cultural genocide.  In some cases they even replace bishops with their own.  The Frankish culture then winds up effecting certain doctrines.

There you go again making excuses.  If Catholics allowed themselves to be used to solidify the Frankish warlords cultural genocide, then whose fault is that?  If they allowed and accepted the authority of unconverted bishops set in power by unconverted powers, whose fault is that?  If they allowed these same people to change and effect Church doctrine, then whose fault is that?  It is their own fault, and their own doing.  They fostered the spirit of compromise with this world to save their own necks.  This spirit always leads to apostasy in God's Church.

Thus Christ was crucified, the Apostles gave their lives, and countless Christians have also throughout history because they would not compromise. There is no compromise with the world for God's true people.  The Church of Rome is the Mother of supposed "Christianity

 

GO RYAN GO!!!!!!

the only thing I want to ask you is......do you think that the reasons you sited to keep the RC and Orthodox apart are relavent to salvation?
The reason I ask is because I really want us to come back together again. It seems to me that the differences are small (maybe not in the eyes of the Pope, LOL) but I truly believe it is not "deal-breaker" issues. And it would be so great to have one huge universal church when He returns.

Quotedo you think that the reasons you sited to keep the RC and Orthodox apart are relavent to salvation?

I don't know.  I don't presume that they are harmless.  Whether or not the doctrines that are harmful will lead to eternal harm, I don't know.  All doctrines answer in part the question that Jesus often asked, "who do you say that I am?"

That's pretty important.  If you get that answer wrong it's going to effect your communion/relationship with God.

Here are seven golden verses that pertain to doctrine and they are worded quite strongly.  Number 3 is relevant in regards to the schism.

   
1. 1 Timothy 1:3
      [ Warning Against False Teachers of the Law ] As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
      1 Timothy 1:2-4 (in Context) 1 Timothy 1 (Whole Chapter)
   
2. 1 Timothy 1:10
      for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
      1 Timothy 1:9-11 (in Context) 1 Timothy 1 (Whole Chapter)
   
3. 1 Timothy 4:16
      Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
      1 Timothy 4:15-16 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
   
4. 1 Timothy 6:3
      [ Love of Money ] If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
      1 Timothy 6:2-4 (in Context) 1 Timothy 6 (Whole Chapter)
   
5. 2 Timothy 4:3
      For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
      2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
   
6. Titus 1:9
      He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
      Titus 1:8-10 (in Context) Titus 1 (Whole Chapter)
   
7. Titus 2:1
      [ What Must Be Taught to Various Groups ] You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
      Titus 2:1-3 (in Context) Titus 2 (Whole Chapter)

QuoteThe reason I ask is because I really want us to come back together again. It seems to me that the differences are small (maybe not in the eyes of the Pope, LOL) but I truly believe it is not "deal-breaker" issues. And it would be so great to have one huge universal church when He returns.

I wouldn't call the issues small for the reasons listed above.  It's entirely possible that according to our opposing doctrines that we are in fact each preaching a different Jesus.  We both know that there's only one. 

To minimize the importance of who we say Jesus is, is to minimize the importance of who Jesus is for the sake of a large crowd.

Ecumenism (in regards to the movement shared both by the RCC and the protestants), dualism and pluralism do more harm to participants than good. 

I do hope and pray for True unity though...   


God bless

Me too!!!
Mat. 16:19

and I will give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. AND WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH WILL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH WILL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN...
I have to trust the leaders tho, as they guide our souls, and there for have a judgment..Rom 13:17
Thats just me..God bless