Christian Forums

Quote from: trifecta on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 12:36:14
LightHammer,

Thank you for your reply.  Thought my point would get lost in all the posts here.

Quote from: LightHammer on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 14:49:43

Well first of CHRIST HIMSELF literally destroyed this idea upon His death on the cross and His ressurection. He clearly told the Pharisees that He would destroy the Temple and rebuild it in three days.

No disagreement here 

Quote
Then He went further to say that the Helper (Holy Ghost) will descend from heaven and be the giver of truth. The bible says that the church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth. Well the Holy Spirit is the only who bears testimony to what the truth is!

Okay, but your last sentence is straying from the sentence before.  (see below)

Quote

If Christ spoke of the Temple, which is where the Holy Spirit resides, as the body of the true believer then the entirety of believers is collectively the pillar and bulwark of the Truth and the True Church.

This is too much of stretch.  But it is not a stretch to say that using your logic the church does not exist.  If we are collectively gathered but not together -no reality exists.   

Again, this was not the way the historic church thought.  The church needs physicality because Christ himself is both physical and spiritual.   Human beings are made in his image, for sure, but the sum of believing human beings as no physicality in and of itself.  The church is real.

QuoteAnd whatever guy said that although all true believers go to heaven, that does not necessarily mean that they are apart of the Church owes me a TON of scripture to back up such a contradiction.

Does Scripture say that those written in the Book of Life are the church?  No.  Does it say that every baptised church person is saved? No. Was the thief on the cross in the church? No, yet he was saved.

Quote

QuoteWouldn't it make sense for at least one church to have the whole truth?  If doctrines separate churches (which they do), then only one church has the truth.   Truth by his nature is binary.

THE HOLY SPIRIT HOLDS THE TRUTH.

But if the Holy Spirit is in the true church, there is no contradiction. The Holy Spirit resides in my church (the Orthodox Church).  Assuming I am correct, the Holy Spirit is in the church testifying of its truth.  That is why the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

But the Protestant model wants to change this by making the church you and me and all believers.  A key problem is who speaks the truth when we disagree?  There is no mechanism for resolving this in Protestantism, but there is in the historic church.

Quote

Just because God allows something doesnt make Him the author of it. Just throwing that fact out there.

which is why Protestantism is a flawed concept.  There is a problem when your religion is split into 20,000 denominations.   God allows them to exist (to your point), and he even may love many of them, but none are the true church. 

Thanks for reading. 

dear sir You are very close to being condescending. Yes Protestantism is flawed but don;t paint your tomb white. You are just as flawed. We all want truth but man is not able to attain it. No not any institution of men. Corruption and false teaching is on both sides of the river and Papal Rome was far from perfect from its very beginning. The Holy Spirit is truth and this would be correct . So we must go to what is inspired of Him. That is what Christ taught and the written gospels and epistles of the apostles. What is wrote cannot be changed or altered if man does not forge it. The written word will and always be our source for truth. It will be our indictment in that day weather it be  for good or evil.The institutions can and will mislead many but what is pure is Gods word.

God bless 

 

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 15:03:18
dear sir You are very close to being condescending. Yes Protestantism is flawed but don;t paint your tomb white. You are just as flawed. We all want truth but man is not able to attain it. No not any institution of men. Corruption and false teaching is on both sides of the river and Papal Rome was far from perfect from its very beginning. The Holy Spirit is truth and this would be correct . So we must go to what is inspired of Him. That is what Christ taught and the written gospels and epistles of the apostles. What is wrote cannot be changed or altered if man does not forge it. The written word will and always be our source for truth. It will be our indictment in that day weather it be  for good or evil.The institutions can and will mislead many but what is pure is Gods word.

God bless  

 

Trifecta is Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.

Quote from: desertknight on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 15:16:01

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 15:03:18
dear sir You are very close to being condescending. Yes Protestantism is flawed but don;t paint your tomb white. You are just as flawed. We all want truth but man is not able to attain it. No not any institution of men. Corruption and false teaching is on both sides of the river and Papal Rome was far from perfect from its very beginning. The Holy Spirit is truth and this would be correct . So we must go to what is inspired of Him. That is what Christ taught and the written gospels and epistles of the apostles. What is wrote cannot be changed or altered if man does not forge it. The written word will and always be our source for truth. It will be our indictment in that day weather it be  for good or evil.The institutions can and will mislead many but what is pure is Gods word.

God bless  

 

Trifecta is Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.

Sorry for the mistake, but he was talking like you guys. I just stated the truth of the matter. In that day weather you are Eastern Orthodox, RC, or Protestant will have little weight.

There are no denominations or affiliations in heaven. Only those who walk in the spirit and keep his commandments. Not commandments of men but his.

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 15:03:18
The institutions can and will mislead many but what is pure is Gods word.

God bless 

 

What is not pure though are the false personal and contradictory interpretations of God's word that we find in Protestantism.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 05:44:32

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 15:03:18
The institutions can and will mislead many but what is pure is Gods word.

God bless 

 

What is not pure though are the false personal and contradictory interpretations of God's word that we find in Protestantism.

Is this the pot that called the kettle black. You should take heed to what I said. we are all in the same boat. We all live by the same word of God.  Drop the pride , the arrogance and the prejudice. You may be surprised when you see many protestants before you in heaven, but not because the are protestants

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 07:17:55

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 05:44:32

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 15:03:18
The institutions can and will mislead many but what is pure is Gods word.

God bless 

 

What is not pure though are the false personal and contradictory interpretations of God's word that we find in Protestantism.

Is this the pot that called the kettle black. You should take heed to what I said. we are all in the same boat. We all live by the same word of God.  Drop the pride , the arrogance and the prejudice. You may be surprised when you see many protestants before you in heaven, but not because the are protestants

God bless

We are not in the same boat.

We are in the barque of Peter and you are in a sinking ship.

QuoteWe are not in the same boat.

We are in the barque of Peter and you are in a sinking ship.

Which is exactly why you are in danger of losing your salvation.  Did Peter die for you, or did Christ die for you?  Paul once addressed this very situation.

1 Cor 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Who do you think Cephas in the above scriptures is? 

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

It was Peter.  He did not die for you.  What was a mistake then, is the same mistake now.  The problem then, was putting a man, any man in God's place.  This will always be a problem.  No, but this is part of what Paul was speaking of when he referred to the mystery of iniquity already beginning in his own day. 

II Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


You have put a man in the place of Christ, and therefore created the man of sin spoken of in the above scriptures, who has fulfilled all the particulars of the above prophecy.  What is sin, but the exaltation of the will of man, above the will of God?  Thus in every instance in which the Pope, and the papacy contradict a plain thus says the Lord in the scriptures, they fulfill the above. 

Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

When Peter exalted Christ as the Son of the living God, the Lord blessed him as speaking words from heaven against which nothing could prevail.  Shortly thereafter though, Peter spoke words concerning his own will over God's in relation to the persecution and crucifixion of our Lord.  For this he was rebuked and called Satan himself by our Lord.  Thus has the Catholic Church become the Church of Satan in this world. 

When the Church exalted Christ as the Son of the living God and her one and only perfect example and leader, she was blessed with a message filled with the power of the Holy Spirit of God which no kingdom, even Rome, could withstand.  Shortly thereafter though, when she had conquered paganism, she exalted a man in the place of Christ, the supposed successors of Peter, and she became the agent of Satan rather than God.  Instead of the power of the Holy Spirit by way of conviction, she enlisted the power of the state by way of force, having lost the former by exalting man in the place of God.  Thus the world has been cursed by her presents ever since.  The following is a good summary of such.

But the success of the Papacy, when closely examined, is not so surprising as it looks. It cannot be justly pronounced legitimate, or fairly won. Rome has ever been swimming with the tide. The evils and passions of society, which a true benefactress would have made it her business to cure -at least, to alleviate -Rome has studied rather to foster into strength, that she might be borne to power on the foul current which she herself had created. Amid battles, bloodshed, and confusion, has her path lain. The edicts of subservient Councils, the forgeries of hireling priests, the arms of craven monarchs, and the thunderbolts of excommunication have never been wanting to open her path. Exploits won by weapons of this sort are what her historians delight to chronicle. These are the victories that constitute her glory! And then, there remains yet another and great deduction from the apparent grandeur of her success, in that, after all, it is the success of only a few -a caste -the clergy. For although, during her early career, the Roman Church rendered certain important services to society -of which it will delight us to make mention in fitting place when she grew to maturity, and was able to develop her real genius, it was felt and acknowledged by all that her principles implied the ruin of all interests save her own, and that there was room in the world for none but herself. If her march, as shown in history down to the sixteenth century, is ever onwards, it is not less true that behind, on her path, lie the wrecks of nations, and the ashes of literature, of liberty, and of civilization.

Popery, then, we hold to be an after-growth of Paganism, whose deadly wound, dealt by the spiritual sword of Christianity, was healed. Its oracles had been silenced, its shrines demolished, and its gods consigned to oblivion; but the deep corruption of the human race, not yet cured by the promised effusion of the Spirit upon all flesh, revived it anew, and, under a Christian mask, reared other temples in its honour, built it another Pantheon, and replenished it with other gods, which, in fact, were but the ancient divinities under new names. All idolatries, in whatever age or country they have existed, are to be viewed but as successive developments of the one grand apostacy. That apostacy was commenced in Eden, and consummated at Rome. It had its rise in the plucking of the forbidden fruit; and it attained its acme in the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome,--Christ's Vicar on earth. The hope that he would "be as God," led man to commit the first sin; and that sin was perfected when the Pope "exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Popery is but the natural development of this great original transgression. It is just the early idolatries ripened and perfected. It is manifestly an enormous expansion of the same intensely malignant and fearfully destructive principle which these idolatries contained. The ancient Chaldean worshipping the sun,--the Greek deifying the powers of nature,--and the Roman exalting the race of primeval men into gods, are but varied manifestations of the same evil principle, namely, the utter alienation of the heart from God,--its proneness to hide itself amid the darkness of its own corrupt imaginations, and to become a god unto itself. That principle received the most fearful development which appears possible on earth, in the Mystery of Iniquity which came to be seated on the Seven Hills; for therein man deified himself, became God, nay, arrogated powers which lifted him high above God. Popery is the last, the most matured, the most subtle, the most skilfully contriven, and the most essentially diabolical form of idolatry which the world ever saw, or which, there is reason to believe, it ever will see. It is the ne plus ultra of man's wickedness, and the chef d'oeuvre of Satan's cunning and malignity. It is the greatest calamity, next to the Fall, which ever befell the human family. Farther away from God the world could not exist at all. The cement that holds society together, already greatly weakened, would be altogether destroyed, and the social fabric would instantly fall in ruins.(Book I. History of the Papacy. By Rev. J.A. Wylie, LL.D. Chapter I.
Origin of the Papacy.)

By the way, once while Christ was walking on water toward the boat filled with the disciples, Peter wanted to be like God, and thus asked permission to walk on water like Christ.  So he left the boat and did walk on water, until his faith faltered and he began to sink.  It was Peter that began to sink, not the boat.  As soon as his eyes left Christ, and he began to think upon himself he began to sink and needed to be saved by Christ.  It is those who will take their eyes off of Christ, and put them upon mere men that will sink, not the boat which is filled with those beholding the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world.  Please take your eyes off of Peter, and those who are supposed to be now in his place, and put them upon Christ alone.  Surely, it is for good reason that the scriptures have left us such testimony regarding the faults of the apostle Peter. 

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 07:55:05

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 07:17:55

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 05:44:32

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 15:03:18
The institutions can and will mislead many but what is pure is Gods word.

God bless 

 

What is not pure though are the false personal and contradictory interpretations of God's word that we find in Protestantism.

Is this the pot that called the kettle black. You should take heed to what I said. we are all in the same boat. We all live by the same word of God.  Drop the pride , the arrogance and the prejudice. You may be surprised when you see many protestants before you in heaven, but not because the are protestants

God bless

We are not in the same boat.

We are in the barque of Peter and you are in a sinking ship.

The ark of Christ will never sink
God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 10:04:50

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 07:55:05

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 07:17:55

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 05:44:32

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 15:03:18
The institutions can and will mislead many but what is pure is Gods word.

God bless 

 

What is not pure though are the false personal and contradictory interpretations of God's word that we find in Protestantism.

Is this the pot that called the kettle black. You should take heed to what I said. we are all in the same boat. We all live by the same word of God.  Drop the pride , the arrogance and the prejudice. You may be surprised when you see many protestants before you in heaven, but not because the are protestants

God bless

We are not in the same boat.

We are in the barque of Peter and you are in a sinking ship.

The ark of Christ will never sink
God bless

Quite right,

You better get in it then.

God bless

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 10:03:15

QuoteWe are not in the same boat.

We are in the barque of Peter and you are in a sinking ship.

Which is exactly why you are in danger of losing your salvation.  Did Peter die for you, or did Christ die for you?  Paul once addressed this very situation.

1 Cor 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Who do you think Cephas in the above scriptures is? 

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

It was Peter.  He did not die for you.  What was a mistake then, is the same mistake now.  The problem then, was putting a man, any man in God's place.  This will always be a problem.  No, but this is part of what Paul was speaking of when he referred to the mystery of iniquity already beginning in his own day. 

II Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


You have put a man in the place of Christ, and therefore created the man of sin spoken of in the above scriptures, who has fulfilled all the particulars of the above prophecy.  What is sin, but the exaltation of the will of man, above the will of God?  Thus in every instance in which the Pope, and the papacy contradict a plain thus says the Lord in the scriptures, they fulfill the above. 

Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

When Peter exalted Christ as the Son of the living God, the Lord blessed him as speaking words from heaven against which nothing could prevail.  Shortly thereafter though, Peter spoke words concerning his own will over God's in relation to the persecution and crucifixion of our Lord.  For this he was rebuked and called Satan himself by our Lord.  Thus has the Catholic Church become the Church of Satan in this world. 

When the Church exalted Christ as the Son of the living God and her one and only perfect example and leader, she was blessed with a message filled with the power of the Holy Spirit of God which no kingdom, even Rome, could withstand.  Shortly thereafter though, when she had conquered paganism, she exalted a man in the place of Christ, the supposed successors of Peter, and she became the agent of Satan rather than God.  Instead of the power of the Holy Spirit by way of conviction, she enlisted the power of the state by way of force, having lost the former by exalting man in the place of God.  Thus the world has been cursed by her presents ever since.  The following is a good summary of such.

But the success of the Papacy, when closely examined, is not so surprising as it looks. It cannot be justly pronounced legitimate, or fairly won. Rome has ever been swimming with the tide. The evils and passions of society, which a true benefactress would have made it her business to cure -at least, to alleviate -Rome has studied rather to foster into strength, that she might be borne to power on the foul current which she herself had created. Amid battles, bloodshed, and confusion, has her path lain. The edicts of subservient Councils, the forgeries of hireling priests, the arms of craven monarchs, and the thunderbolts of excommunication have never been wanting to open her path. Exploits won by weapons of this sort are what her historians delight to chronicle. These are the victories that constitute her glory! And then, there remains yet another and great deduction from the apparent grandeur of her success, in that, after all, it is the success of only a few -a caste -the clergy. For although, during her early career, the Roman Church rendered certain important services to society -of which it will delight us to make mention in fitting place when she grew to maturity, and was able to develop her real genius, it was felt and acknowledged by all that her principles implied the ruin of all interests save her own, and that there was room in the world for none but herself. If her march, as shown in history down to the sixteenth century, is ever onwards, it is not less true that behind, on her path, lie the wrecks of nations, and the ashes of literature, of liberty, and of civilization.

Popery, then, we hold to be an after-growth of Paganism, whose deadly wound, dealt by the spiritual sword of Christianity, was healed. Its oracles had been silenced, its shrines demolished, and its gods consigned to oblivion; but the deep corruption of the human race, not yet cured by the promised effusion of the Spirit upon all flesh, revived it anew, and, under a Christian mask, reared other temples in its honour, built it another Pantheon, and replenished it with other gods, which, in fact, were but the ancient divinities under new names. All idolatries, in whatever age or country they have existed, are to be viewed but as successive developments of the one grand apostacy. That apostacy was commenced in Eden, and consummated at Rome. It had its rise in the plucking of the forbidden fruit; and it attained its acme in the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome,--Christ's Vicar on earth. The hope that he would "be as God," led man to commit the first sin; and that sin was perfected when the Pope "exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Popery is but the natural development of this great original transgression. It is just the early idolatries ripened and perfected. It is manifestly an enormous expansion of the same intensely malignant and fearfully destructive principle which these idolatries contained. The ancient Chaldean worshipping the sun,--the Greek deifying the powers of nature,--and the Roman exalting the race of primeval men into gods, are but varied manifestations of the same evil principle, namely, the utter alienation of the heart from God,--its proneness to hide itself amid the darkness of its own corrupt imaginations, and to become a god unto itself. That principle received the most fearful development which appears possible on earth, in the Mystery of Iniquity which came to be seated on the Seven Hills; for therein man deified himself, became God, nay, arrogated powers which lifted him high above God. Popery is the last, the most matured, the most subtle, the most skilfully contriven, and the most essentially diabolical form of idolatry which the world ever saw, or which, there is reason to believe, it ever will see. It is the ne plus ultra of man's wickedness, and the chef d'oeuvre of Satan's cunning and malignity. It is the greatest calamity, next to the Fall, which ever befell the human family. Farther away from God the world could not exist at all. The cement that holds society together, already greatly weakened, would be altogether destroyed, and the social fabric would instantly fall in ruins.(Book I. History of the Papacy. By Rev. J.A. Wylie, LL.D. Chapter I.
Origin of the Papacy.)

By the way, once while Christ was walking on water toward the boat filled with the disciples, Peter wanted to be like God, and thus asked permission to walk on water like Christ.  So he left the boat and did walk on water, until his faith faltered and he began to sink.  It was Peter that began to sink, not the boat.  As soon as his eyes left Christ, and he began to think upon himself he began to sink and needed to be saved by Christ.  It is those who will take their eyes off of Christ, and put them upon mere men that will sink, not the boat which is filled with those beholding the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world.  Please take your eyes off of Peter, and those who are supposed to be now in his place, and put them upon Christ alone.  Surely, it is for good reason that the scriptures have left us such testimony regarding the faults of the apostle Peter. 

Just so people are aware...

The above was written by Arthur Grosvner.  He was a secretary for James and Ellen White, of the Seventh Day Adventists. 


The Seventh-day Adventist (commonly abbreviated SDA, officially abbreviated Adventist) Church is a Christian denomination which is distinguished by its observance of Saturday, the original seventh day of the Judeo-Christian week, as the Sabbath, and by its emphasis on the imminent second coming of Jesus Christ. It is the eighth largest international body of Christians. The denomination grew out of the Millerite movement in the United States during the middle part of the 19th century and was formally established in 1863.  Among its founders was Ellen G. White, whose extensive writings are still held in high regard by the church today.

The Great Disappointment was a major event in the history of the Millerite movement, a 19th century American Christian sect. William Miller, a Baptist preacher, understood by studying the prophecies in the book of Daniel (Chapters 8 and 9, especially Dan. 8:14 "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed") that Jesus Christ would return to the earth during the year 1844. A more specific date, that of October 22, 1844, was preached by Samuel S. Snow. Although thousands of followers, some of whom had given away all of their possessions, awaited expectantly, Jesus did not appear as expected on the appointed day and as a result October 22, 1844, became known as the Great Disappointment.

Soon after the Great Disappointment, Ellen G White then claims to have had her first "visions".  Her theology of what the bible means to say becomes the foundation for what the Seventh Day Adventists believe the bible means to say. 

The Seventh-day Adventist church regards itself as the "remnant" of Revelation 12:17 (KJV). The Remnant church "announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent" (Fundamental Belief no. 13). The duty of the Remnant is summed up in the "Three Angels' Messages" of Revelation 14:6-12, and its two distinguishing marks are seventh-day Sabbath observance and the Spirit of Prophecy (see below).

At baptism, Adventists may be asked the following question: "Do you accept and believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship?" (NB. In 2005 an alternative set of baptismal vows was created, which does not contain a reference to the Adventist church as the remnant. Candidates may now choose whether to take the original vow or the new one

In regards to Ellen G White, the SDA position regarding her is as follows:

"her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."

According to Ellen G White herself:

The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false Sabbath  in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God  (The Great Controversy, 1950,
p. 605)


Then I was shown a company who were howling in agony. On their garments was written in large characters, "Thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting." I asked who this company were. The angel said, "These are they who have once kept the Sabbath and have given it up." I heard them cry with a loud voice, "We have believed in Thy coming, and taught it with energy." And while they were speaking, their eyes would fall upon their garments and see the writing, and then they would wail aloud. I saw they had drunk of the deep waters, and fouled the residue with their feet -- trodden the Sabbath underfoot -- and that was why they were weighed in the balance and found wanting (Early Writings, p. 37).

"The seal of God is revealed in the observance of the Seventh Day Sabbath."  -- Ellen G. White








ICXC

QuoteJust so people are aware...

The above was written by Arthur Grosvner.  He was a secretary for James and Ellen White, of the Seventh Day Adventists. 

Ryan2010, you do not know what you are talking about.  I wrote what you quoted, excluding of course the scriptures, and that which was quoted from Rev. J. A. Wylie.  I've never even heard of Arthur Grosvner.

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 23:05:40
And haven't you noticed that the only people whom God refers to as a "holy nation" is only to those who actually became a nation.  Of course, we are set apart because the Church that Christ built was not part of this world.  As a Catholic, I believe that I am not of this world.  Even the Catholic Church teaches this.  Our Church calls itself the "Mystical Body of Christ" because it is not of this world.  We always say that the Church is pure because she is part of Christ's body and not of this world.  It is only the churchMEN who are sinners. 

As believers yes we are a nation yet not of this world. You should tell that to the pope and the papacy that is up to its neck in the world and its politics

god bless

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 10:03:15
Matt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

When Peter exalted Christ as the Son of the living God, the Lord blessed him as speaking words from heaven against which nothing could prevail.  Shortly thereafter though, Peter spoke words concerning his own will over God's in relation to the persecution and crucifixion of our Lord.  For this he was rebuked and called Satan himself by our Lord.  Thus has the Catholic Church become the Church of Satan in this world.  

This is quite a claim - does this mean we should disregard Peter's ministry after this point because Peter was cursed by Jesus?   It sure appears that way.  

QuoteThis is quite a claim - does this mean we should disregard Peter's ministry after this point because Peter was cursed by Jesus?   It sure appears that way. 

That was not the least of it.  Later on Peter publicly denied Christ three times, once with cursing.  Christ however, gave Peter opportunity to publicly testify of his faith and love for Christ and thus gave him his authority as one of the apostles back.

Matt 26:69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.
74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

John 21:14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 17:04:43

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 23:05:40
And haven't you noticed that the only people whom God refers to as a "holy nation" is only to those who actually became a nation.  Of course, we are set apart because the Church that Christ built was not part of this world.  As a Catholic, I believe that I am not of this world.  Even the Catholic Church teaches this.  Our Church calls itself the "Mystical Body of Christ" because it is not of this world.  We always say that the Church is pure because she is part of Christ's body and not of this world.  It is only the churchMEN who are sinners. 

As believers yes we are a nation yet not of this world. You should tell that to the pope and the papacy that is up to its neck in the world and its politics

god bless

Mike, when Moses said to a group of slaves that they will become a holy nation, they actually became a nation - a country.  The Apostle Peter said the same thing to a group of Christians, and the only Christian denomination that became a nation just like Israel were the Catholics. The Baptists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, and whatever church you belong to didn't become a nation.  As a matter of fact, the church that DID become a nation was also the same church that put together the Bible.  The New Testaments were cannonized in the fourth century by the Catholic Church.  Whatever church you belong to didn't put the Bible together. 

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 16:14:59

QuoteJust so people are aware...

The above was written by Arthur Grosvner.  He was a secretary for James and Ellen White, of the Seventh Day Adventists. 

Ryan2010, you do not know what you are talking about.  I wrote what you quoted, excluding of course the scriptures, and that which was quoted from Rev. J. A. Wylie.  I've never even heard of Arthur Grosvner.

Forgive me.  You're correct.  I plugged in the quote from the essay and it was posted on a SDA site without citing the author.  It then had a "more about the author" and this is where Arthur Grosvner came up. 

But you can look up who Arthur Grosvner is as he is a personality in the SDA movement. 

My point in doing so of course is to show that traditions that you represent color your view on history as it does other people's views.  We often don't realize that we are believing in things and believing in ways that have been handed down to us that have a source in a particular movement or a particular persons interpretation and or experiences.  If you look at the Millerites for example you can see how this influenced the SDA movement.  You can also see that there are obvious carry overs from the Baptists.  But as the Millerite example shows, the problem we run into is that a certain individual believes the scriptures mean to say X when in that they do not and yet people then see X as being synonymous with what is written.  Why?  Because when you train people to believe that scriptures ABC means XYZ they see no other way and this colors their approach to the bible.  They only see the teachings about ABC and so don't even see ABC any longer.  The only thing they see is XYZ and anything counter to the teaching XYZ is called, "unbiblical".

But again the problem is that you have many groups who are teaching EFG and QRS and TUV and when each group is looking at ABC they all believe that what was handed down to them is synonymous with ABC the disunity is preserved.  It's preserved because now a Baptist says TUV and the Methodist QRS and if the Methodists didn't believe QRS then they would cease to be Methodist and have to adopt another teaching.   If those Methodists then when to other churches and agreed with the traditions taught at whatever church they arrive at, then they assimilate not what the scriptures mean to say but what the tradition at that certain church means to say.

Again, sorry for the misquote there.   I think what happened here was I may have found text similar to Wylie in White's writing and it showed up on the site wherein Arthur Grosvner is credited as compiling the work as secretary.  Look at the two examples from Wylie's work and then Ellen White's work:


The Waldenses felt that God required more of them than merely to maintain the truth in their own mountains; that a solemn responsibility rested upon them to let their light shine forth to those who were in darkness; that by the mighty power of God's word, they were to break the bondage which Rome had imposed. It was a law among them that all who entered the ministry should, before taking charge of a church at home, serve three years in the missionary field. As the hands of the men of God were laid upon their heads, the youth saw before them, not the prospect of earthly wealth or glory, but possibly a martyr's fate. The missionaries began their labors in the plains and valleys at the foot of their own mountains, going forth two and two, as Jesus sent out his disciples. These co­laborers were not always together, but often met for prayer and counsel, thus strengthening each other in the faith. To make known the nature of their mission would have insured its defeat; therefore they concealed their real character under the guise of some secular profession, most commonly that of merchants or peddlers. They offered for sale silks, Jewelry, and other valuable articles, and were received as merchants where they would have been repulsed as missionaries. All the while their hearts were uplifted to God for wisdom to present a treasure more precious than gold or gems. They carried about with them portions of the Holy Scriptures concealed in their clothing or merchandise, and whenever they could do so with safety, they called the attention of the inmates of the dwelling to these manuscripts. When they saw that an interest was awakened, they left some portion with them as a gift. (White, 1886)

Whom they traded, and the landlords in whose houses they lodge. The priests seldom carried to meet in argument the Waldensian missionary. To maintain the truth in their own mountains was not the only object of this people. They felt their relations to the rest of the Christendom. They sought to drive back the darkness, and re-conquer the kingdoms which Rome had overwhelmed. They were an evangelistic as well as an evangelical Church. It was an old law among them that all who took orders in their church should, before being eligible to a home charge, serve three years in the mission field. The youth on whose head the assembled barbes laid their hands, saw in prospect not a rich benefice, but a possible martyrdom. The ocean they did not cross. Their mission field was the realms that lay outspread at the foot of their own mountains. They went forth two and two, concealed their real character under the guise of a secular profession, most commonly that of merchants or pedlars. They carried silks, jewellery, and other articles, at that time not easily purchasable save at distant marts, and they were welcomed as merchants where they would have been spurned as missionaries. The door of the cottage and the portal of the baron's castle stood equally open to them. But their address was mainly shown in vending, without money and without price, rarer and more valuable merchandise than the gems and silks which had..." (Wylie, 1876)



Ellen was familiar with Wylie's work it seems. 


And for those interested:

The earliest Waldensians believed in poverty and austerity, promoting true poverty, public preaching and the personal study of the scriptures.[1]  The sect originated in the late 12th century as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant of Lyon, who gave away his property around 1177 and went about preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection.[1]

In 1179, they went to Rome, where Pope Alexander III blessed their life but forbade preaching without authorization from the local clergy.[7] They disobeyed and began to preach according to their own understanding of scripture. Seen by the Roman Catholic Church as unorthodox, they were formally declared heretics by Pope Lucius III in 1184 at the Synod of Verona, and by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215.[7] In 1211 more than 80 were burned as heretics at Strasbourg[who?], beginning several centuries of persecution that nearly destroyed the sect. Part of their legacy is recognized as works of the writer Henri Arnaud. The Waldensian Church of Italy has survived to the present day.

Some groups of Mennonites and Baptists in the attempt to trace apostolic succession through the Waldenses, claim that the Waldenses history extends back to the apostolic church.[1] Many Roman Catholic and mainstream Protestant scholars contest that this has no basis in fact.[1][5][7] The mainstream academic view is that the Waldensians were followers of Peter Waldo (or Valdes or Vaudes) and that any similarity in doctrine between the Waldensians and the early Christians is not necessarily the result of direct ancestry

Ancient origins asserted and disputed

Some researchers argue that the group has existed since the time of the apostles, a claim that is disputed by modern scholarship.[1] The supporters of the ancient origin claim the Waldenses' name does not in fact come from Peter Waldo, as modern scholars contend, but from the area in which they lived. [8] They claim Peter Waldo in fact got his name by association with the Waldenses. This thought was current in the early 19th century:

    "Some Protestants, on this occasion, have fallen into the snare that was set for them...It is absolutely false, that these churches were ever found by Peter Waldo...it is a pure forgery."[9]

    "It is not true, that Waldo gave this name to the inhabitants of the valleys: they were called Waldenses, or Vaudes, before his time, from the valleys in which they dwelt." [9]

    "On the other hand, he "was called Valdus, or Waldo, because he received his religious notions from the inhabitants of the valleys." [10]

The claim of an ancient origin was for a long time accepted as valid by Protestant historians.[7] The Alexandrine La Nòbla Leiçon written in Provençal ("The Noble Lesson"), was thought at one time to have been composed in 1100, but all scholars now date it between 1190 and 1240.[11] Other scholars claimed Claudius, Bishop of Turin (died 840), Berengarius of Tours (died 1088), or other such men preceded Peter Waldo as the founder of the group.[7] In the nineteenth century, however, critics came to the conclusion that the poem and other Waldensian documents offered as proof had been altered.[7] For example, the respected Waldensian scholar Dr. Emilio Comba dismissed the theories related to the ancient origin of the Waldensians in the middle of the 19th century.

Origins in the Middle Ages

According to the Waldense Church and the Waldense Scholarship, the Waldensians started with Peter Waldo, who began to preach on the streets of Lyon in 1177.[1] He was a wealthy merchant and decided to give up all his worldly possessions; he was sick of his own affluence: that he had so much more than those around him.[5] He went through the streets giving his money away and decided to become a wandering preacher who would beg for a living. He began to attract a following. Waldo had a philosophy very similar to Francis of Assisi.

Later sects such as Anabaptists and Baptists  also began to point to the Waldensians as an example of earlier Christians who were not a part of the Roman Catholic Church, and held beliefs similar to their own. The Mennonite  book Martyrs Mirror lists them in this regard as it attempts to trace the history of believer's baptism back to the apostles. James Aitken Wylie (1808-1890) likewise believed that the Waldensians preserved the apostolic faith during the Middle Ages.[21]  Still later, Seventh-day Adventist Ellen G. White taught that the Waldenses were preservers of biblical truth during the great apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church.[22]  She believed that the Waldenses kept the seventh-day Sabbath, engaged in widespread missionary activity, and "planted the seeds of the Reformation" in Europe. Like the claims of ancient origins, these claims are not backed by any mainstream scholarship.[23]  However, others point to evidence of seventh-day keeping by at least some Waldenses prior to and about the time of the Reformation




ICXC

QuoteBut if the Holy Spirit is in the true church, there is no contradiction. The Holy Spirit resides in my church (the Orthodox Church).  Assuming I am correct, the Holy Spirit is in the church testifying of its truth.  That is why the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

But the Protestant model wants to change this by making the church you and me and all believers.  A key problem is who speaks the truth when we disagree?  There is no mechanism for resolving this in Protestantism, but there is in the historic church.

No the Holy Spirit resides within me and He has every since the day I professed the name of Christ Jesus and submitted to God's Will. Read your bible. At the day of the Pentacost the Helper descended not just unto the leaders of the church but unto the entire congregation of believers. The Holy Spirit isnt limited to the Catholic Church and to even hint at this is ridiculous and utter falsehood.

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 09:03:38

QuoteBut if the Holy Spirit is in the true church, there is no contradiction. The Holy Spirit resides in my church (the Orthodox Church).  Assuming I am correct, the Holy Spirit is in the church testifying of its truth.  That is why the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

But the Protestant model wants to change this by making the church you and me and all believers.  A key problem is who speaks the truth when we disagree?  There is no mechanism for resolving this in Protestantism, but there is in the historic church.

No the Holy Spirit resides within me and He has every since the day I professed the name of Christ Jesus and submitted to God's Will. Read your bible. At the day of the Pentacost the Helper descended not just unto the leaders of the church but unto the entire congregation of believers. The Holy Spirit isnt limited to the Catholic Church and to even hint at this is ridiculous and utter falsehood.

Yes, we received the Holy Spirit at Baptism. But that is not what Trifecta was referring to.

It is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth, not each one of us individually.

It was the Church that Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against.

It was the apostles, as leaders of the Church, that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would remind them of all he had taught them.

It was the apostles, as leaders of the Church, that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would lead into all truth.

It was apostles, as leaders of the Church, that Jesus promised he would be with even to the end of time.

It was the apostles, as leaders of the Church, that Jesus prayed to the Father would consecrate in the truth.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 09:18:19

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 09:03:38

QuoteBut if the Holy Spirit is in the true church, there is no contradiction. The Holy Spirit resides in my church (the Orthodox Church).  Assuming I am correct, the Holy Spirit is in the church testifying of its truth.  That is why the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

But the Protestant model wants to change this by making the church you and me and all believers.  A key problem is who speaks the truth when we disagree?  There is no mechanism for resolving this in Protestantism, but there is in the historic church.

No the Holy Spirit resides within me and He has every since the day I professed the name of Christ Jesus and submitted to God's Will. Read your bible. At the day of the Pentacost the Helper descended not just unto the leaders of the church but unto the entire congregation of believers. The Holy Spirit isnt limited to the Catholic Church and to even hint at this is ridiculous and utter falsehood.

Yes, we received the Holy Spirit at Baptism. But that is not what Trifecta was referring to.

It is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth, not each one of us individually.

It was the Church that Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against.

It was the apostles, as leaders of the Church, that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would remind them of all he had taught them.

It was the apostles, as leaders of the Church, that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would lead into all truth.

It was apostles, as leaders of the Church, that Jesus promised he would be with even to the end of time.

It was the apostles, as leaders of the Church, that Jesus prayed to the Father would consecrate in the truth.

Most of what you say here is true.  But to suggest that the RCC is the Church is not.  Many in the RCC are a part of the Church as are many from other religious organizations, but that is all that one can say.

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 07:14:57

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 17:04:43

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 23:05:40
And haven't you noticed that the only people whom God refers to as a "holy nation" is only to those who actually became a nation.  Of course, we are set apart because the Church that Christ built was not part of this world.  As a Catholic, I believe that I am not of this world.  Even the Catholic Church teaches this.  Our Church calls itself the "Mystical Body of Christ" because it is not of this world.  We always say that the Church is pure because she is part of Christ's body and not of this world.  It is only the churchMEN who are sinners. 

As believers yes we are a nation yet not of this world. You should tell that to the pope and the papacy that is up to its neck in the world and its politics

god bless

Mike, when Moses said to a group of slaves that they will become a holy nation, they actually became a nation - a country.  The Apostle Peter said the same thing to a group of Christians, and the only Christian denomination that became a nation just like Israel were the Catholics. The Baptists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, and whatever church you belong to didn't become a nation.  As a matter of fact, the church that DID become a nation was also the same church that put together the Bible.  The New Testaments were cannonized in the fourth century by the Catholic Church.  Whatever church you belong to didn't put the Bible together. 

It is truly amazing how God can use even the worst of people to accomplish His ends.  He used the Pharisee, Judas and the Romans Rulers to bring us the sacrifice of Christ.  That is no indication that God condones either them or their acts.

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 09:47:06

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 07:14:57

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 17:04:43

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 23:05:40
And haven't you noticed that the only people whom God refers to as a "holy nation" is only to those who actually became a nation.  Of course, we are set apart because the Church that Christ built was not part of this world.  As a Catholic, I believe that I am not of this world.  Even the Catholic Church teaches this.  Our Church calls itself the "Mystical Body of Christ" because it is not of this world.  We always say that the Church is pure because she is part of Christ's body and not of this world.  It is only the churchMEN who are sinners. 

As believers yes we are a nation yet not of this world. You should tell that to the pope and the papacy that is up to its neck in the world and its politics

god bless

Mike, when Moses said to a group of slaves that they will become a holy nation, they actually became a nation - a country.  The Apostle Peter said the same thing to a group of Christians, and the only Christian denomination that became a nation just like Israel were the Catholics. The Baptists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, and whatever church you belong to didn't become a nation.  As a matter of fact, the church that DID become a nation was also the same church that put together the Bible.  The New Testaments were cannonized in the fourth century by the Catholic Church.  Whatever church you belong to didn't put the Bible together. 

It is truly amazing how God can use even the worst of people to accomplish His ends.  He used the Pharisee, Judas and the Romans Rulers to bring us the sacrifice of Christ.  That is no indication that God condones either them or their acts.

I tell you what else is amazing. it the absolute arrogance of many RC,s that post on this board. How they totally exclude the body of Christ because they are not Catholic. I've been around for a long time and have been friends with many believers of other denominations and such. I know how they truly love Christ from their heart. No we don't always agree on doctrine but i do not say they are not the body of Christ as if they were some none entity.

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 12:11:53

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 09:47:06

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 07:14:57

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 17:04:43

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 23:05:40
And haven't you noticed that the only people whom God refers to as a "holy nation" is only to those who actually became a nation.  Of course, we are set apart because the Church that Christ built was not part of this world.  As a Catholic, I believe that I am not of this world.  Even the Catholic Church teaches this.  Our Church calls itself the "Mystical Body of Christ" because it is not of this world.  We always say that the Church is pure because she is part of Christ's body and not of this world.  It is only the churchMEN who are sinners. 

As believers yes we are a nation yet not of this world. You should tell that to the pope and the papacy that is up to its neck in the world and its politics

god bless

Mike, when Moses said to a group of slaves that they will become a holy nation, they actually became a nation - a country.  The Apostle Peter said the same thing to a group of Christians, and the only Christian denomination that became a nation just like Israel were the Catholics. The Baptists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, and whatever church you belong to didn't become a nation.  As a matter of fact, the church that DID become a nation was also the same church that put together the Bible.  The New Testaments were cannonized in the fourth century by the Catholic Church.  Whatever church you belong to didn't put the Bible together. 

It is truly amazing how God can use even the worst of people to accomplish His ends.  He used the Pharisee, Judas and the Romans Rulers to bring us the sacrifice of Christ.  That is no indication that God condones either them or their acts.

I tell you what else is amazing. it the absolute arrogance of many RC,s that post on this board. How they totally exclude the body of Christ because they are not Catholic. I've been around for a long time and have been friends with many believers of other denominations and such. I know how they truly love Christ from their heart. No we don't always agree on doctrine but i do not say they are not the body of Christ as if they were some none entity.

God bless

What is even more amazing is the absolute ignorance of many Protestants that post on this board. How they have been told time and time again in thread after thread that the Catholic Church considers all Christians Catholic, just not all of them in complete communion with the the Church. So when a Catholic says "Church" in the broad sense of what "Church" means, they mean all of Christianity, not the building they visit for mass.

Quote from: Rob, PGK on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 14:39:56

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 12:11:53

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 09:47:06

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 07:14:57

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 17:04:43

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 23:05:40
And haven't you noticed that the only people whom God refers to as a "holy nation" is only to those who actually became a nation.  Of course, we are set apart because the Church that Christ built was not part of this world.  As a Catholic, I believe that I am not of this world.  Even the Catholic Church teaches this.  Our Church calls itself the "Mystical Body of Christ" because it is not of this world.  We always say that the Church is pure because she is part of Christ's body and not of this world.  It is only the churchMEN who are sinners.  

As believers yes we are a nation yet not of this world. You should tell that to the pope and the papacy that is up to its neck in the world and its politics

god bless

Mike, when Moses said to a group of slaves that they will become a holy nation, they actually became a nation - a country.  The Apostle Peter said the same thing to a group of Christians, and the only Christian denomination that became a nation just like Israel were the Catholics. The Baptists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, and whatever church you belong to didn't become a nation.  As a matter of fact, the church that DID become a nation was also the same church that put together the Bible.  The New Testaments were cannonized in the fourth century by the Catholic Church.  Whatever church you belong to didn't put the Bible together.  

It is truly amazing how God can use even the worst of people to accomplish His ends.  He used the Pharisee, Judas and the Romans Rulers to bring us the sacrifice of Christ.  That is no indication that God condones either them or their acts.

I tell you what else is amazing. it the absolute arrogance of many RC,s that post on this board. How they totally exclude the body of Christ because they are not Catholic. I've been around for a long time and have been friends with many believers of other denominations and such. I know how they truly love Christ from their heart. No we don't always agree on doctrine but i do not say they are not the body of Christ as if they were some none entity.

God bless

What is even more amazing is the absolute ignorance of many Protestants that post on this board. How they have been told time and time again in thread after thread that the Catholic Church considers all Christians Catholic, just not all of them in complete communion with the the Church. So when a Catholic says "Church" in the broad sense of what "Church" means, they mean all of Christianity, not the building they visit for mass.

And all I want is some scripture to back up the nonsense I'm hearing.

The wedding of Christ, The Groom and the Bride, His Church is limited only to those of the Catholic submission? How impudent. But I'm still loving this debate way too much to falter now.

As a Protestant I will not deny that the Church has authority. Rather than being a Sola Scriptura I think it would be more accurate to refer to me as a Prima Scritpura. But I have to be honest in saying that the Church is NOT limited to those denominations of the one Catholic communion.

John 2
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body.

In Judaism the temple is the ONLY place the Spirit of God would descend. Other than the prophets who received special commute with the Spirit of God the priest were the only ones who received the truth of God and therefore taught the masses. Thats why the only road to salvation was to become a Jew under the Old Law.

Here Christ clearly refers to the Temple being rebuilt as the body of the true believer who shoulders his cross. This came to be by Christ death burial and resurrection.

John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command.  16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--  17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[3] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.  19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.  20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.  21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Notice throughout this passage how Christ is repetitive in using phrases like "in you" "in me" and "in my Father". Christ is promising the establishing of a spiritual union between the spirit of the true believer and His own. Now although I don't think any Catholic would disagree with what Ive said so far, I do think you argue that Christ limited this to leaders of the Church.


Acts 2:17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Actually Peter Himself quoted this after some in the crowd who didn't receive the Holy Spirit began to mock those who did as being drunk. Look at the words in the texts "sons" "daughters" "servants" "handmaidens". These are words used to describe those who take up the cross for Christ as He did for man. Tell me you don't limit such attributes to only Catholics.

Now if the Holy Spirit resides within each individual heart of each individual believer then collectively those followers are the Bride meant for Christ. Then collectively they are the Church that Israel was meant give birth to through her pain and suffering. Then collectively the Universal Church isnt limited to the Catholic Church.

By the way you guys are bickering like old school girls.( no offense to the opposite sex).lol

We are all Christians here and the topics we are debating on this thread aren't so important that we need to start calling people arrogant or ignorant. Don't even refer to each other like that.

Come on you guys we're supposed to be the Light of the World or at least reflections of the True Light in Heaven. We can't bicker back and forth or we wont learn anything about one another's views and I'm sorry but thats the only reason I'm here  in the first place.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 12:11:53
I tell you what else is amazing. it the absolute arrogance of many RC,s that post on this board. How they totally exclude the body of Christ because they are not Catholic. I've been around for a long time and have been friends with many believers of other denominations and such. I know how they truly love Christ from their heart. No we don't always agree on doctrine but i do not say they are not the body of Christ as if they were some none entity.

God bless

Mike, have you ever noticed that when I speak of the Catholic Church, I always capitalized the "C" in Church and when I speak of the Methodist church or any others that are non-Catholics, I don't capitalized the "c?"  The true Church that Christ built is the Catholic Church.  Because you are a Christian, you are still my brother in Christ.  You are part of the body of Christ, but the church that you belong to is not God's true Church.  Your church did not put together the Bible.  You were never excluded.  It was you who excluded us.     

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 17:17:23

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 12:11:53
I tell you what else is amazing. it the absolute arrogance of many RC,s that post on this board. How they totally exclude the body of Christ because they are not Catholic. I've been around for a long time and have been friends with many believers of other denominations and such. I know how they truly love Christ from their heart. No we don't always agree on doctrine but i do not say they are not the body of Christ as if they were some none entity.

God bless

Mike, have you ever noticed that when I speak of the Catholic Church, I always capitalized the "C" in Church and when I speak of the Methodist church or any others that are non-Catholics, I don't capitalized the "c?"  The true Church that Christ built is the Catholic Church.  Because you are a Christian, you are still my brother in Christ.  You are part of the body of Christ, but the church that you belong to is not God's true Church.  Your church did not put together the Bible.  You were never excluded.  It was you who excluded us.     

Scripture please.

I'm not seeing the problem here. I'm a Protestant who will openly confess that the disciples as the leaders of the Church on Earth had Apostolic Authority. I will even accept that the Church has authority over matters in the Christian community; as a matter of fact the only authority on earth that trumps the Church is Scripture.

I acknowledge the authority of the Church, to an extent. Its just seems that you guys are refusing to quote any other scripture besides 1 Timothy 3:15.

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 18:24:08
Scripture please.

I'm not seeing the problem here. I'm a Protestant who will openly confess that the disciples as the leaders of the Church on Earth had Apostolic Authority. I will even accept that the Church has authority over matters in the Christian community; as a matter of fact the only authority on earth that trumps the Church is Scripture.

I acknowledge the authority of the Church, to an extent. Its just seems that you guys are refusing to quote any other scripture besides 1 Timothy 3:15.

The only authority on earth that trumps the Church is Scripture?  It was the Church that wrote the Bible, compiled it together and cannonized it.  The Bible didn't just drop into the world from Heaven.  It was the Church who put it together into what you have now.  It was the Catholic Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that put it together the Bible in the fourth century.  And the Catholic Church can trace its lineage to the Apostle Peter.

Jesus Christ is alive and well. He is ruling on HIS THRONE and we are his subjects in a spiritual kingdom. You cannot see it, hear it or smell it.

The name of the Holy Spirit OF Christ is Jesus Christ the Righteous. Therefore, to presume to be Christ's agent on earth is to utterly and terminally blaspheme Jesus Christ.

If you look at the Throne of Peter you will PUKE: I guarantee it if you are a believer.

Quote from: Selene on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 18:49:01

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 18:24:08
Scripture please.

I'm not seeing the problem here. I'm a Protestant who will openly confess that the disciples as the leaders of the Church on Earth had Apostolic Authority. I will even accept that the Church has authority over matters in the Christian community; as a matter of fact the only authority on earth that trumps the Church is Scripture.

I acknowledge the authority of the Church, to an extent. Its just seems that you guys are refusing to quote any other scripture besides 1 Timothy 3:15.

The only authority on earth that trumps the Church is Scripture?  It was the Church that wrote the Bible, compiled it together and cannonized it.  The Bible didn't just drop into the world from Heaven.  It was the Church who put it together into what you have now.  It was the Catholic Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that put it together the Bible in the fourth century.  And the Catholic Church can trace its lineage to the Apostle Peter.

Oh imagine that another post without a shred of scripture.

So I guess you think your little club is special because it can trace back its alleged union of leaders to a mere follower of Christ. My heart beats with the love of Christ and He who dwells in me is greater than any who dwells within this insignificant rock called Earth. So don't be too proud Selene.

Like I said in the Eucharist thread( speaking of which Ryan you still owe me a response on that point) the Church didn't completely unify under Rome.

At the time of Constantine's call, there were 1800 Apostolic Successors and in the end only 318 of them actually attended the Council of Nicaea. That discention is hardly enough to even whisper the decisions made in that Council as valid so don't talk to me about your little club. History itself validates what I say and scripture to boot.


Now in regards to the Catholic church canonizing scripture. Christ Himself promised that the Word of God would never fade until its task was created. So any atheist void of any Godly morals could randomly choose the right scriptures for canonization if he were in the position to impact the world like the early leaders of Catholicism. With Rome backing them now and their position as a religious power, the early leaders of this new catholic power were in complete authority to utterly transform Christianity.

God canonized the Bible. Your church leaders were just the mindless puppets that pointed in the direction the Master chose.

By the way you completely ignored the post before the one you commented to. Why is that?

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 19:11:13
God canonized the Bible. Your church leaders were just the mindless puppets that pointed in the direction the Master chose.

By the way you completely ignored the post before the one you commented to. Why is that?

Mindless puppets?  Many of the Apostles wrote the New Testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  And you think these men were mindless puppets?  It was the Holy Spirit that showed our Church leaders which books to cannonize.  The Holy Spirit did not choose YOUR church leaders to do that.  And when the Holy Spirit was there showing our Church leaders which books to cannonize, the Holy Spirit did not make them into mindless puppets to do that.  Our Church leaders simply obeyed the Holy Spirit. 

Which post was that?  I was responding to Mike's post.  

QuoteForgive me.  You're correct.  I plugged in the quote from the essay and it was posted on a SDA site without citing the author.  It then had a "more about the author" and this is where Arthur Grosvner came up.

But you can look up who Arthur Grosvner is as he is a personality in the SDA movement.

My point in doing so of course is to show that traditions that you represent color your view on history as it does other people's views.  We often don't realize that we are believing in things and believing in ways that have been handed down to us that have a source in a particular movement or a particular persons interpretation and or experiences.  If you look at the Millerites for example you can see how this influenced the SDA movement.  You can also see that there are obvious carry overs from the Baptists.  But as the Millerite example shows, the problem we run into is that a certain individual believes the scriptures mean to say X when in that they do not and yet people then see X as being synonymous with what is written.  Why?  Because when you train people to believe that scriptures ABC means XYZ they see no other way and this colors their approach to the bible.  They only see the teachings about ABC and so don't even see ABC any longer.  The only thing they see is XYZ and anything counter to the teaching XYZ is called, "unbiblical".

But again the problem is that you have many groups who are teaching EFG and QRS and TUV and when each group is looking at ABC they all believe that what was handed down to them is synonymous with ABC the disunity is preserved.  It's preserved because now a Baptist says TUV and the Methodist QRS and if the Methodists didn't believe QRS then they would cease to be Methodist and have to adopt another teaching.   If those Methodists then when to other churches and agreed with the traditions taught at whatever church they arrive at, then they assimilate not what the scriptures mean to say but what the tradition at that certain church means to say.

Again, sorry for the misquote there.   I think what happened here was I may have found text similar to Wylie in White's writing and it showed up on the site wherein Arthur Grosvner is credited as compiling the work as secretary.  Look at the two examples from Wylie's work and then Ellen White's work:

No biggy.  I agree with your above to a point.  However, I personally have no tradition to carry on.  I was raised without a knowledge of God.  There is no family tradition or denominational pride for me to defend.  Nor do I care to defend a denomination, but only the truth as it is according to the word of God.  Though, I will address statements about my denomination, that I know to be false.  At the same time, I would leave it in a heartbeat, if I become convicted it is contradicting the word of God. 

As far as your comments concerning the Waldenses,it is certainly a contested subject.  I lean toward a more ancient beginning than that of Peter Waldo.  I'll share a tidbit in the next post.

Quote from: LightHammerAt the time of Constantine's call, there were 1800 Apostolic Successors and in the end only 318 of them actually attended the Council of Nicaea. That discention is hardly enough to even whisper the decisions made in that Council as valid so don't talk to me about your little club.

So the fact that the Protestant Christianity that you adhere to today rejects Arianism is just some odd and happy coincidence?  How nice for you!  

THE VOICE OF THE
CHURCH
by D.T. Taylor


THE WALDENSES, A. D. 314, TILL NOW
THE WALDENSES, VALDENSES, VAUDOIS or "People of the Valleys.

A GENERAL HISTORY OF THE
BAPTIST DENOMINATION
VOLUME 1
by David Benedict


Sylvester was bishop of Rome in the reign of Constantine, and Catholics
pretend that he was the thirty-fourth in succession. In the days of
Sylvester, it is believed, that the people, who were afterwards called
Waldenses, began to separate from the church, which had become a tool of
state, and was fast plunging into error and superstition. (chap.1 page 17)

The Euchites among the Greeks were similar to the Waldenses or
Waldensians among the Romans. The terms, Waldenses, Valenses or
Vadois (all of the same import) signify the people of the valleys, and were
applied in early times to those, who, tired of tyranny, pomp, and
oppression, retired to obscure retreats where they might enjoy gospel
purity and religious freedom. And in the end, all of their sentiments, and
many who were not, were called Waldenses, whether they dwelt in rallies
or on mountains, in cities or in caves: Just as a sect of christians are called
Moravians, whether they dwell in Moravia, in England, in Greenland, or
the West-India Islands. And the terms Euchites and Waldenses answered
to that of Non-conformist in England, which every reader will understand.
Among the English non-conformists, are comprehended Presbyterians,
Independents, Baptists, Methodists, Quakers, and so on. And so among
the Greek Euchites and the Roman Waldenses, were a great variety of
sects, who maintained a great diversity of opinions and practices, and
among them were many who would be called Baptists, as we shall attempt
to show in the next chapter but one. (page 33)





THE HISTORY OF THE
CHRISTIAN CHURCH
VOL. 1
by William Jones



Eminent among these witnesses for the truth in times of general apostacy,
stand the Waldenses. They first appear prominent in history in the
twelfth century. Long before that, no doubt, in the valleys of the Alps,
they had maintained the true religion, having retreated from the
corruptions and persecutions of the Romish church. They had remained
there in comparative quietude, perhaps esteemed too insignificant for
molestation, until in the century named the papal hierarchy was startled at
the wide prevalence and popularity of their doctrine, and hence felt it
necessary to employ all the infernal machinery of persecution for their
destruction. Their missionaries had gone into all the world, and then, in
almost all the countries of Europe, as if by one consent, there started up
simultaneously, great numbers of individuals who denounced the
supremacy of the Pope, condemned the corruptions and venality of the
priesthood, and boldly proclaimed that the church of Rome was the
"whore of Babylon

AMO - Though, I will address statements about my denomination, that I know to be false.  At the same time, I would leave it in a heartbeat, if I become convicted it is contradicting the word of God.

larry2 - Ah, a man with convictions; I do like that. I see that you admit you belong to a denomination; are you indeed a member of it in good standing? Now I am just going to mess with you or pull your chain a bit to test your convictions since you invited others to address statements about that.

Dear AMO, would you or other members of your denomination purposefully follow another head other than Christ Himself? And then would you for any reason practice any thing directly refuted by scripture? I truthfully hope you answered no to both my questions in your heart, and I do think you'll agree with the following scriptures.

Ephesians 1:22  "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,"

Colossians 1:18  "And he is the head of the body, the church:"

Now I would like to know why if you join a denomination that you don't adhere to 1 Corinthians 3:4  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos (Can I insert SDA here?); are ye not carnal?
 
1 Corinthians 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 
If you are seeking truth why would you possibly ignore such instruction? Are ye carnal, and would you divide the body of Christ? No brother, I really am not condemning you and that is the very reason one eats all things as unto the Lord, and another does not, but God receives both of them. Let each be convinced in his own heart as to his walk with Christ.

God bless you in Jesus' name.