Christian Forums

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 - 07:53:25
I know you may get tired of me, but i just can't help it. Now don't take this wrong. I believe we live our faith by example.  I go every Sunday to a park north of me and take meals for many of our unfortunates that are with out work. But I don't just serve a meal but I go to share Christ. I don't get all dressed up for I want to be a part of them. Not some one they could never identify with. Now think if i went looking like a pope or an Orthodox bishop. You no why many poor never go to one of our churches on Sunday. Think about it.

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 - 07:32:48

Quote from: Frank_N_Sense on Sat Apr 24, 2010 - 23:12:34

Quote from: Ryan2010 on Thu Apr 22, 2010 - 16:45:49

Quote from: Frank_N_Sense on Thu Apr 22, 2010 - 16:31:52
Not sure I see why they would even want to...

Same reason why Christ prayed that we might attain complete unity.  Same reason why Orthodox hope to seek communion with the protestants. 

We are called to be one.  You want to teach and believe the same things.  True unity.  It's not a Christian teaching to embrace pluralism or reduce the teachings of Christ to something that seems subjective or relative. 

Do you not hope that all will attain to the unity of the faith? 

True love does not call disunity unity but seeks that we might all be of one mind.  An image of the Holy Trinity.  Just as Christ is One with the Father so too are Christians called to be an image of that unity. 

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Anything less is counter to the good news. 


ICXC

They all share many, many, many things & tend to separate themselves based on the few things they do not agree on..........  I think they believe that they agree on the essentials......

That they/we all are going to agree & lots of these other things is not going to happen until Christ returns......

I agree with what you say. there will always be disagreements among men, but love is our identity and call. Love Christ and our brother. this is the unity of the faith. Yes there are many things I would feel strongly against. At the beginning of this thread there is a picture of an Orthodox bishop that looks like a king. I feel sorry for any one who thinks this is what our faith is all about. God help us

God bless

Yes.................. 

It is love, not what they are wearing & all that..........

"Love thy neighbor as thy self".........  There is no better quote...(IMHO as it is universal)....... Nor better answer as to how one should handle themselves or how others should handle themselves.......

As awesome as that is, it is #2.................

Quote from: Ryan2010 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 - 19:19:20
Mclees8, you would like St. John Chrysostom. ....... 

ICXC
NIKA

A more recent saint of interest is St. John Vianney, the Cure D'Ars. He lived a very frugal life, simple poor clothes and much fasting and prayer. But for saying Mass he always wore beautiful vestments.

God bless

Did Elisha and John the baptist glorify God?

God bless



Please explain why God instructed the Israelites to make vestments of gold, jewels and fine linen.
Was it to give glory to Aaron and his sons?

Please explain why God instructed that the items in Tabernacle (lampstand, table, ark etc) were to be made of gold or plated with gold.
Was it to give glory to the Israelites?

In heaven
Were there not seven gold lampstands in Rev 1 (one for each of the branches in the lampstand in the Tabernacle in the Temple)?

Jesus wore a full length robe with a gold sash (Rev 1:13)

The 24 elders wore gold crowns (Rev 4:4)

There were gold bowls of incense (Rev 5:8) and a gold censer (Rev 8:3)

There was a gold altar (rev 9:13)

Beautiful vestments and golden objects are there even in the heavenly worship. Who else are they to give glory to if not God?

Revelation speaks of a heavenly glory. It is a spiritual place that honors God. All this is due Christ He is the lamb of God. In heaven the church is also honored.

You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   

Did Elisha and John the baptist glorify God?

God bless



Please explain why God instructed the Israelites to make vestments of gold, jewels and fine linen.
Was it to give glory to Aaron and his sons?

Please explain why God instructed that the items in Tabernacle (lampstand, table, ark etc) were to be made of gold or plated with gold.
Was it to give glory to the Israelites?

In heaven
Were there not seven gold lampstands in Rev 1 (one for each of the branches in the lampstand in the Tabernacle in the Temple)?

Jesus wore a full length robe with a gold sash (Rev 1:13)

The 24 elders wore gold crowns (Rev 4:4)

There were gold bowls of incense (Rev 5:8) and a gold censer (Rev 8:3)

There was a gold altar (rev 9:13)

Beautiful vestments and golden objects are there even in the heavenly worship. Who else are they to give glory to if not God?


Mike> Sorry I did not note my comment

Revelation speaks of a heavenly glory. It is a spiritual place that honors God. All this is due Christ He is the lamb of God. In heaven the church is also honored.

You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   

something happened. That change the idea of clergy.
There was a rising up to an exalted position. One that that wanted recognition and pride of office. When did it happen? What caused it. Some say it may have been the Nicolaitans Who thought highly of themselves. It says that Jesus commended Ephesus for hating them.

But this thou hast that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans which I also hate
rev 2:6

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 05:17:36
Did Elisha and John the baptist glorify God?

God bless



Please explain why God instructed the Israelites to make vestments of gold, jewels and fine linen.
Was it to give glory to Aaron and his sons?

Please explain why God instructed that the items in Tabernacle (lampstand, table, ark etc) were to be made of gold or plated with gold.
Was it to give glory to the Israelites?

In heaven
Were there not seven gold lampstands in Rev 1 (one for each of the branches in the lampstand in the Tabernacle in the Temple)?

Jesus wore a full length robe with a gold sash (Rev 1:13)

The 24 elders wore gold crowns (Rev 4:4)

There were gold bowls of incense (Rev 5:8) and a gold censer (Rev 8:3)

There was a gold altar (rev 9:13)

Beautiful vestments and golden objects are there even in the heavenly worship. Who else are they to give glory to if not God?


Mike> Sorry I did not note my comment

Revelation speaks of a heavenly glory. It is a spiritual place that honors God. All this is due Christ He is the lamb of God. In heaven the church is also honored.

You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   

Why should I answer you questions when you won't answer mine?

Just admit you have no answer.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 07:34:39

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 05:17:36
Did Elisha and John the baptist glorify God?

God bless



Please explain why God instructed the Israelites to make vestments of gold, jewels and fine linen.
Was it to give glory to Aaron and his sons?

Please explain why God instructed that the items in Tabernacle (lampstand, table, ark etc) were to be made of gold or plated with gold.
Was it to give glory to the Israelites?

In heaven
Were there not seven gold lampstands in Rev 1 (one for each of the branches in the lampstand in the Tabernacle in the Temple)?

Jesus wore a full length robe with a gold sash (Rev 1:13)

The 24 elders wore gold crowns (Rev 4:4)

There were gold bowls of incense (Rev 5:8) and a gold censer (Rev 8:3)

There was a gold altar (rev 9:13)

Beautiful vestments and golden objects are there even in the heavenly worship. Who else are they to give glory to if not God?


Mike> Sorry I did not note my comment

Revelation speaks of a heavenly glory. It is a spiritual place that honors God. All this is due Christ He is the lamb of God. In heaven the church is also honored.

You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   

Why should I answer you questions when you won't answer mine?

Just admit you have no answer.

And why don't admit that you have no answer.

Perhaps you can answer this. why did Jesus ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. Please don't tell me he dressed up like a king. If he is an example then why do we exalt the clergy?

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 08:14:29

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 07:34:39

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 05:17:36
Did Elisha and John the baptist glorify God?

God bless



Please explain why God instructed the Israelites to make vestments of gold, jewels and fine linen.
Was it to give glory to Aaron and his sons?

Please explain why God instructed that the items in Tabernacle (lampstand, table, ark etc) were to be made of gold or plated with gold.
Was it to give glory to the Israelites?

In heaven
Were there not seven gold lampstands in Rev 1 (one for each of the branches in the lampstand in the Tabernacle in the Temple)?

Jesus wore a full length robe with a gold sash (Rev 1:13)

The 24 elders wore gold crowns (Rev 4:4)

There were gold bowls of incense (Rev 5:8) and a gold censer (Rev 8:3)

There was a gold altar (rev 9:13)

Beautiful vestments and golden objects are there even in the heavenly worship. Who else are they to give glory to if not God?


Mike> Sorry I did not note my comment

Revelation speaks of a heavenly glory. It is a spiritual place that honors God. All this is due Christ He is the lamb of God. In heaven the church is also honored.

You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   

Why should I answer you questions when you won't answer mine?

Just admit you have no answer.

And why don't admit that you have no answer.

I have an answer lined up ready to post when you have answered my questions.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 08:37:22

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 08:14:29

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 07:34:39

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 05:17:36
Did Elisha and John the baptist glorify God?

God bless



Please explain why God instructed the Israelites to make vestments of gold, jewels and fine linen.
Was it to give glory to Aaron and his sons?

Please explain why God instructed that the items in Tabernacle (lampstand, table, ark etc) were to be made of gold or plated with gold.
Was it to give glory to the Israelites?

In heaven
Were there not seven gold lampstands in Rev 1 (one for each of the branches in the lampstand in the Tabernacle in the Temple)?

Jesus wore a full length robe with a gold sash (Rev 1:13)

The 24 elders wore gold crowns (Rev 4:4)

There were gold bowls of incense (Rev 5:8) and a gold censer (Rev 8:3)

There was a gold altar (rev 9:13)

Beautiful vestments and golden objects are there even in the heavenly worship. Who else are they to give glory to if not God?


Mike> Sorry I did not note my comment

Revelation speaks of a heavenly glory. It is a spiritual place that honors God. All this is due Christ He is the lamb of God. In heaven the church is also honored.

You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   

Why should I answer you questions when you won't answer mine?

Just admit you have no answer.

And why don't admit that you have no answer.

I have an answer lined up ready to post when you have answered my questions.

No it was not to give glory to the Priest but to God. Everything was specific and for a purpose. I have to brush up a bit since it has been some time that I studied about the temple and the Old testament priest hood. Every thing had symbolism and pointed to Christ.

But remember that when Christ gave up the ghost on the cross the Vail was torn and the old priest hood was done away with. A new and more perfect priest hood was established, and that was the priesthood of all believers. The sacrifice was finished and complete. I think i know what you will post, but i will wait and see.

You want to carry the Old priest hood over to the New covenant. You want to say those things are still valid today. Even thought those things have a certain meaning that is not what is truly important for us today. I have stated what glorifies God today. You can dress up all you want to and you can do ritual and symbolism all you want to, but in the end they will hold no wait. I life that is given to Christ and all he taught will be upfront. When you stand on that day you will have no pope or priest to stand for you For the Lord already knows. 

So give me your answer

 

Jesus was the fulfillment of all that was in the Tabernacle and the temple. he has fulfilled all that was the old priest hood and now is our High Priest.

You will note that he did not reestablish all the fancy robes and rituals when he established the church. Everything he did was from the common. Even his disciples.

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:49:39
Jesus was the fulfillment of all that was in the Tabernacle and the temple. he has fulfilled all that was the old priest hood and now is our High Priest.

You will note that he did not reestablish all the fancy robes and rituals when he established the church. Everything he did was from the common. Even his disciples.

God bless

Jesus gave his followers sacraments and prayers.

What do you think Jesus was teaching here?

Acts 1: 3  After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Forty days is a lot of teaching.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:27:04

No it was not to give glory to the Priest but to God. Everything was specific and for a purpose. I have to brush up a bit since it has been some time that I studied about the temple and the Old testament priest hood. Every thing had symbolism and pointed to Christ.

Good, so you agree that the gold and fine vestments were to give glory to God, something you were denying previously.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:27:04
But remember that when Christ gave up the ghost on the cross the Vail was torn and the old priest hood was done away with. A new and more perfect priest hood was established, and that was the priesthood of all believers. The sacrifice was finished and complete. I think i know what you will post, but i will wait and see.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 05:17:36
You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   [/color]

I'll try and answer these together.

The Catholic Church is Judaism fulfilled. There are similarities in ceremonies. The Mass is the fulfilment of the Passover.

Yes, the old priesthood was done away with – in the form it was in.

Protestants criticise Catholics for the crucifixes with Jesus on the cross instead of a plain cross. He is risen they say so why depict him on a cross? Yes, he is risen and that is the point here. He's not walking around now as an itinerant Rabbi in Israel. And we worship him as the risen Lord, sitting in glory and offering his sacrifice to the Father (Heb 8:3)

Let's look at what was happening. Hebrews tells us that the tabernacle/Temple was only a shadow of the heavenly sanctuary (Heb 8:5). There exists a heavenly reality, a heavenly sanctuary, which is described in Revelation, with robes, golden crown, gold vessels, an altar etc. 

The Mass is a joining with the heavenly liturgy. We worship Jesus in his glory in heaven.

In the Mass we cry out with the four living creatures before the throne "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, God almighty

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 13:05:41

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:27:04

No it was not to give glory to the Priest but to God. Everything was specific and for a purpose. I have to brush up a bit since it has been some time that I studied about the temple and the Old testament priest hood. Every thing had symbolism and pointed to Christ.

Good, so you agree that the gold and fine vestments were to give glory to God, something you were denying previously.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:27:04
But remember that when Christ gave up the ghost on the cross the Vail was torn and the old priest hood was done away with. A new and more perfect priest hood was established, and that was the priesthood of all believers. The sacrifice was finished and complete. I think i know what you will post, but i will wait and see.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 05:17:36
You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   [/color]

I'll try and answer these together.

The Catholic Church is Judaism fulfilled. There are similarities in ceremonies. The Mass is the fulfilment of the Passover.

Yes, the old priesthood was done away with – in the form it was in.

Protestants criticise Catholics for the crucifixes with Jesus on the cross instead of a plain cross. He is risen they say so why depict him on a cross? Yes, he is risen and that is the point here. He's not walking around now as an itinerant Rabbi in Israel. And we worship him as the risen Lord, sitting in glory and offering his sacrifice to the Father (Heb 8:3)

Let's look at what was happening. Hebrews tells us that the tabernacle/Temple was only a shadow of the heavenly sanctuary (Heb 8:5). There exists a heavenly reality, a heavenly sanctuary, which is described in Revelation, with robes, golden crown, gold vessels, an altar etc. 

The Mass is a joining with the heavenly liturgy. We worship Jesus in his glory in heaven.

In the Mass we cry out with the four living creatures before the throne "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, God almighty

Quote from: chestertonrules on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 12:51:29

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:49:39
Jesus was the fulfillment of all that was in the Tabernacle and the temple. he has fulfilled all that was the old priest hood and now is our High Priest.

You will note that he did not reestablish all the fancy robes and rituals when he established the church. Everything he did was from the common. Even his disciples.

God bless

Jesus gave his followers sacraments and prayers.

What do you think Jesus was teaching here?

Acts 1: 3  After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Forty days is a lot of teaching.

And your point is?  What I was saying was that he did not re-establish the outward forms of ritual ceremony and priestly vestments like in the old testament priesthood. This is what the papacy did. It is not of Christs church under the new Covenant. I have a saying. " It is not the outward things we do but the inward person we are the pleases God."

god bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 03:38:34

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 13:05:41

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:27:04

No it was not to give glory to the Priest but to God. Everything was specific and for a purpose. I have to brush up a bit since it has been some time that I studied about the temple and the Old testament priest hood. Every thing had symbolism and pointed to Christ.

Good, so you agree that the gold and fine vestments were to give glory to God, something you were denying previously.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:27:04
But remember that when Christ gave up the ghost on the cross the Vail was torn and the old priest hood was done away with. A new and more perfect priest hood was established, and that was the priesthood of all believers. The sacrifice was finished and complete. I think i know what you will post, but i will wait and see.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 05:17:36
You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   [/color]

I'll try and answer these together.

The Catholic Church is Judaism fulfilled. There are similarities in ceremonies. The Mass is the fulfilment of the Passover.

Yes, the old priesthood was done away with – in the form it was in.

Protestants criticise Catholics for the crucifixes with Jesus on the cross instead of a plain cross. He is risen they say so why depict him on a cross? Yes, he is risen and that is the point here. He's not walking around now as an itinerant Rabbi in Israel. And we worship him as the risen Lord, sitting in glory and offering his sacrifice to the Father (Heb 8:3)

Let's look at what was happening. Hebrews tells us that the tabernacle/Temple was only a shadow of the heavenly sanctuary (Heb 8:5). There exists a heavenly reality, a heavenly sanctuary, which is described in Revelation, with robes, golden crown, gold vessels, an altar etc. 

The Mass is a joining with the heavenly liturgy. We worship Jesus in his glory in heaven.

In the Mass we cry out with the four living creatures before the throne "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, God almighty

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 10:51:12

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 03:38:34

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 13:05:41

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:27:04

No it was not to give glory to the Priest but to God. Everything was specific and for a purpose. I have to brush up a bit since it has been some time that I studied about the temple and the Old testament priest hood. Every thing had symbolism and pointed to Christ.

Good, so you agree that the gold and fine vestments were to give glory to God, something you were denying previously.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 11:27:04
But remember that when Christ gave up the ghost on the cross the Vail was torn and the old priest hood was done away with. A new and more perfect priest hood was established, and that was the priesthood of all believers. The sacrifice was finished and complete. I think i know what you will post, but i will wait and see.

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 05:17:36
You asked me a question. But first you answer me one. Why do we not see Christ portrayed with all that splendor when he walk with us. and why do we not see the apostles dressed like the bishop that is posted. Of course we were not there but nothing that Christ ever taught to the disciples suggests for one minute they would ever make a show of themselves. If the apostles themselves are humble and common, what happened to the bishops?   [/color]

I'll try and answer these together.

The Catholic Church is Judaism fulfilled. There are similarities in ceremonies. The Mass is the fulfilment of the Passover.

Yes, the old priesthood was done away with – in the form it was in.

Protestants criticise Catholics for the crucifixes with Jesus on the cross instead of a plain cross. He is risen they say so why depict him on a cross? Yes, he is risen and that is the point here. He's not walking around now as an itinerant Rabbi in Israel. And we worship him as the risen Lord, sitting in glory and offering his sacrifice to the Father (Heb 8:3)

Let's look at what was happening. Hebrews tells us that the tabernacle/Temple was only a shadow of the heavenly sanctuary (Heb 8:5). There exists a heavenly reality, a heavenly sanctuary, which is described in Revelation, with robes, golden crown, gold vessels, an altar etc. 

The Mass is a joining with the heavenly liturgy. We worship Jesus in his glory in heaven.

In the Mass we cry out with the four living creatures before the throne "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, God almighty

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 10:23:58





And your point is?  What I was saying was that he did not re-establish the outward forms of ritual ceremony and priestly vestments like in the old testament priesthood. This is what the papacy did. It is not of Christs church under the new Covenant. I have a saying. " It is not the outward things we do but the inward person we are the pleases God."

god bless

Jesus told us to do certain things.  Do you agree that we should obey him?

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 14:21:09
We are not talking about the book of revelation. Those things are heavenly. the New covenant is centered in salvation and the church that Christ established was in the world but not of it. No not of its politics and carnal religions

I'm talking about the book of Revelation because in it we see God being worshipped now. The worship in heaven was a pattern for the tabernacle in the desert. It is the heavenly worship described  in the book of Revelation that we joined to in the Mass.

In Revelation (and t0o some extent in Hebres) we can understand how God is worshipped and how Christ presents his sacrifice to the Father. We are joined to that.

I'm talking about these things because you were criticising the vestments worn by priests.

When a priest celebrates Mass he wears three special vestments.

Firstly an ankle length white robe (alb) – such as Jesus wore in Rev 1:13
Secondly a sash (stole) - such as Jesus wore in Rev 1:13
Thirdly a one piece garment (chasuble) – such as Jesus wore in his earthly ministry in John 19:23

The principle priest in the Mass is Christ. The ordained priests stand in persona Christi. He is robed as Christ. This is all scriptural but you don't accept scripture when you don't like it.

On specially solemn occasions grander vestments are sometimes worn (a mitre by a Bishop). We often use special clothes to mark extra special occasions (consider a wedding). You go on about carnality as though the physical was something evil and to be avoided.

God created the material world and declared what he had made as good. He created man and woman as both material and spiritual beings and declared they were very good.

We believe God has always dealt with man through material things. And Catholic life is full of material signs and symbols, particularly in its liturgies – bread, wine, water, salt, oil, candles, incense, as well as physical acts – bowing kneeling, washing anointing, laying on of hands. We use colour in vestments and other objects at different times of the liturgical year.

All these, when properly understood and used, enrich our life in Christ.

God demanded of the Israelites that they gave him their best in worship – the best materials, the best craftsmen, the best animals from the flocks. He expects no less from us.

This is what the LORD then said to Moses: "Tell the Israelites to take up a collection for me. From every man you shall accept the contribution that his heart prompts him to give me. These are the contributions you shall accept from them: gold, silver and bronze; violet, purple and scarlet yarn; fine linen and goat hair; rams' skins dyed red, and tahash skins; acacia wood; oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; onyx stones and other gems for mounting on the ephod and the breastpiece (Ex 25:1-7)

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 14:21:09
IT Is you who have ignored the points that i have made. the scripture you use has nothing to with justifying show business religion. but if you want to use revelation then go to the church of Laodicea. then go to Rev. 17 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication

Now there a church that loves all that finery. she even identifies with he kings of the world. but only judgment awaits her.   

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundancea of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her

No one who truly receives Christ will wither and die. But the church of gold and kingly appearance will be destroyed

Don't demean yourself by sinking to the "Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon

Quote from: winsome on Wed Apr 28, 2010 - 03:58:58

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 14:21:09
We are not talking about the book of revelation. Those things are heavenly. the New covenant is centered in salvation and the church that Christ established was in the world but not of it. No not of its politics and carnal religions

I'm talking about the book of Revelation because in it we see God being worshipped now. The worship in heaven was a pattern for the tabernacle in the desert. It is the heavenly worship described  in the book of Revelation that we joined to in the Mass.

In Revelation (and t0o some extent in Hebres) we can understand how God is worshipped and how Christ presents his sacrifice to the Father. We are joined to that.

I'm talking about these things because you were criticising the vestments worn by priests.

When a priest celebrates Mass he wears three special vestments.

Firstly an ankle length white robe (alb) – such as Jesus wore in Rev 1:13
Secondly a sash (stole) - such as Jesus wore in Rev 1:13
Thirdly a one piece garment (chasuble) – such as Jesus wore in his earthly ministry in John 19:23

The principle priest in the Mass is Christ. The ordained priests stand in persona Christi. He is robed as Christ. This is all scriptural but you don't accept scripture when you don't like it.

On specially solemn occasions grander vestments are sometimes worn (a mitre by a Bishop). We often use special clothes to mark extra special occasions (consider a wedding). You go on about carnality as though the physical was something evil and to be avoided.

God created the material world and declared what he had made as good. He created man and woman as both material and spiritual beings and declared they were very good.

We believe God has always dealt with man through material things. And Catholic life is full of material signs and symbols, particularly in its liturgies – bread, wine, water, salt, oil, candles, incense, as well as physical acts – bowing kneeling, washing anointing, laying on of hands. We use colour in vestments and other objects at different times of the liturgical year.

All these, when properly understood and used, enrich our life in Christ.

God demanded of the Israelites that they gave him their best in worship – the best materials, the best craftsmen, the best animals from the flocks. He expects no less from us.

This is what the LORD then said to Moses: "Tell the Israelites to take up a collection for me. From every man you shall accept the contribution that his heart prompts him to give me. These are the contributions you shall accept from them: gold, silver and bronze; violet, purple and scarlet yarn; fine linen and goat hair; rams' skins dyed red, and tahash skins; acacia wood; oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; onyx stones and other gems for mounting on the ephod and the breastpiece (Ex 25:1-7)

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 14:21:09
IT Is you who have ignored the points that i have made. the scripture you use has nothing to with justifying show business religion. but if you want to use revelation then go to the church of Laodicea. then go to Rev. 17 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication

Now there a church that loves all that finery. she even identifies with he kings of the world. but only judgment awaits her.   

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundancea of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her

No one who truly receives Christ will wither and die. But the church of gold and kingly appearance will be destroyed

Don't demean yourself by sinking to the "Catholic Church is the wh*re of Babylon