Christian Forums

I caught a lot of flak for my last post for saying that Catholics and Christians are not the same, which they are not. Though we have the same belief that God is the one and only God and Jesus Christ was sent down from heaven and sacrficed to pay for all of our sins, you must understand that Christians (or as you may know them, Protestants) don't look believe that the pope is head of the church. We believe that Jesus Christ is the head of the church and that the Bible contains the final word on how Christians should live their lives, not the church. We also believe that you may reach heaven on faith alone. Now let's begin.
Today's history lesson was about Galileo Galilei, as you know the famous scientist who was a huge supporter of Caperincus's heliocentric theory. Galileo was the first person to be able to show scientific and mathematic proof that the earth revolves around the sun. This went against the church's teachings, and bot protestants and catholics were very upset at them. The pope called him to the infamous Inquisition to stand trial. Under the threat of torture, Galileo  was forced to bow down to cardinals and read a statement sayign that everyting he had said and that Copernicus had said was false. Now we know that they were both correct, but it took the Catholic church until 1992 to say that Galileo was correct.
Also anyone that commented on either one of my posts please watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOY11ALIlI4

Quote from: YesImAFreshman on Wed May 05, 2010 - 21:40:46
I caught a lot of flak for my last post for saying that Catholics and Christians are not the same, which they are not. Though we have the same belief that God is the one and only God and Jesus Christ was sent down from heaven and sacrficed to pay for all of our sins, you must understand that Christians (or as you may know them, Protestants) don't look believe that the pope is head of the church. We believe that Jesus Christ is the head of the church and that the Bible contains the final word on how Christians should live their lives, not the church. We also believe that you may reach heaven on faith alone. Now let's begin.

Catholics are Christians

A lot of protestants are not Christians, though some are.

Catholics believe Jesus Christ is the head of the Church.

The Pope is the visible head of the Church on earth.

Jesus Christ passed on his authority to the Church, not a book. A book cannot have authority (although it can be authoriitative -meaning true and reliable).

Faith without works is dead.

Quote from: winsome on Thu May 06, 2010 - 04:10:21

Quote from: YesImAFreshman on Wed May 05, 2010 - 21:40:46
I caught a lot of flak for my last post for saying that Catholics and Christians are not the same, which they are not. Though we have the same belief that God is the one and only God and Jesus Christ was sent down from heaven and sacrficed to pay for all of our sins, you must understand that Christians (or as you may know them, Protestants) don't look believe that the pope is head of the church. We believe that Jesus Christ is the head of the church and that the Bible contains the final word on how Christians should live their lives, not the church. We also believe that you may reach heaven on faith alone. Now let's begin.

Catholics are Christians

A lot of protestants are not Christians, though some are.

Catholics believe Jesus Christ is the head of the Church.

The Pope is the visible head of the Church on earth.

Jesus Christ passed on his authority to the Church, not a book. A book cannot have authority (although it can be authoriitative -meaning true and reliable).

Faith without works is dead.

It is true that the leadership represents an authority. But from whom does the authority come. We all know the Christ is  the supreme authority. We also know that he gave authority to the apostles. The apostles also wrote with authority. The same authority Christ gave them therefore what they wrote of Christ and to all believes is a true record of authority. So it is more than just reliable but the source of truth. Men can only expound on that truth so their authority is secondary to the actual written word. Men are fallible and subject to false teaching, corruptions and even apostasy, but The word of God that is written not only in a book but the book of our hearts by the Holy Spirit and  is the real source  of all truth. As Jesus said heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall never pass away. Where men fail and corruption rains the purity of Gods word will stand forever. It will be our indictment for good or for evil. Even the pope is subject to it.

God bless

Well since it doesn't seem like anyone has watched my video, I will tell you some of the things that were in it.

First off Pope John Paul II even said himself that you don't need to accept Jesus Christ as your savior to make it to heaven. So don't bow down to this 

"The Pope is the visible head of the Church on earth."

I don't know about you but Jesus Christ is pretty visible to me.

Quote from: YesImAFreshman on Thu May 06, 2010 - 21:53:04
"The Pope is the visible head of the Church on earth."

I don't know about you but Jesus Christ is pretty visible to me.

Please describe for us what happened when you say Jesus.

Quote from: mclees8 on Thu May 06, 2010 - 17:43:54

Quote from: winsome on Thu May 06, 2010 - 04:10:21

Quote from: YesImAFreshman on Wed May 05, 2010 - 21:40:46
I caught a lot of flak for my last post for saying that Catholics and Christians are not the same, which they are not. Though we have the same belief that God is the one and only God and Jesus Christ was sent down from heaven and sacrficed to pay for all of our sins, you must understand that Christians (or as you may know them, Protestants) don't look believe that the pope is head of the church. We believe that Jesus Christ is the head of the church and that the Bible contains the final word on how Christians should live their lives, not the church. We also believe that you may reach heaven on faith alone. Now let's begin.

Catholics are Christians

A lot of protestants are not Christians, though some are.

Catholics believe Jesus Christ is the head of the Church.

The Pope is the visible head of the Church on earth.

Jesus Christ passed on his authority to the Church, not a book. A book cannot have authority (although it can be authoriitative -meaning true and reliable).

Faith without works is dead.

It is true that the leadership represents an authority. But from whom does the authority come. We all know the Christ is  the supreme authority. We also know that he gave authority to the apostles. The apostles also wrote with authority. The same authority Christ gave them therefore what they wrote of Christ and to all believes is a true record of authority. So it is more than just reliable but the source of truth. Men can only expound on that truth so their authority is secondary to the actual written word. Men are fallible and subject to false teaching, corruptions and even apostasy, but The word of God that is written not only in a book but the book of our hearts by the Holy Spirit and  is the real source  of all truth. As Jesus said heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall never pass away. Where men fail and corruption rains the purity of Gods word will stand forever. It will be our indictment for good or for evil. Even the pope is subject to it.

God bless

There is no scriptural or historical basis for your claim for scriptural authority. It has three major flaws:

1. Scripture itself attests that much more was handed on by the apostles than was written down. All teaching was oral in initially and only some of this was written down. The rest was passed down orally as Tradition.

2. Although some writings were accepted very early on, many were disputed. It was only in the late 4th century that a definitive list was approved, by the Church, as to what could be considered scripture and what was not.

3. All scripture needs interpretation and no interpretation can be left to individuals. Laws of a country are drafted very carefully by legal experts who try to make them as unambiguous as possible. But they are challened all the time and all countries have some final authority like a supreme court to make definitive interpretations. It is the same with scripture. Jesus left the Church to be the definitive interpreter of scripture. Countries do not say to their citizens - here are the laws, now you interpret them as you see fit. When the Church defined doctrines, it used scripture as part of the process of coming to it's conclusions, but the definitions were based on its own authority not the authority of scripture.

winsome: "3. All scripture needs interpretation and no interpretation can be left to individuals."

In other words you are saying hermeneutics and exegesis are of no value to the common man?

You are aware that hermeneutics guides the process by which divine messages revealed to an ancient world are applied and expounded to the modern world?

That which exists in our minds is not the Word of God itself, but a concept of the Word of God. No one can say, "I do not  interpret the Bible, I just read it and let the words speak for themselves." When anyone forms concepts (accurate or inaccurate) of that which is spoken of in the words of the Bible, interpretation is taking place.

Hermeneutics must be a continuing science because the discipline of archaeology adds new possibilities, sheds new light on the meaning of words, furnishes new information concerning historical events.

Man needs to know the will of God from an objective source (vs. intuition). Pious and devout ignorance is the enemy of sound hermeneutics, and has always been antagonistic to doctrinal truth.

To quote Erasmus: "The Holy Spirit does not sit as a dove on the back of a chair to whisper in anybody's ear, as in the picture of Gregory the Great. There are those who ask  why they should fritter away their days over books when knowledge comes in a flash, as Paul was caught up to the third heaven. But if you are looking for flashes from heaven you will spend a lifetime waiting."

Both, Catholicism and Protestantism use Scripture to rationalize and justify a theological concept or a religious idea which originated independent of the exegetical process. This method is sometimes called "proof texting."

Example: The papal bull "Unum Sanctum" (1302) issued by Boniface VIII addressed to Philip the Fair of France affirming the ascendency of Church over State:
We are obligated by the faith to believe and hold...that there is one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that outside this Church there is neither salvation nor remission of sins...Of this one and only Church there is one body...not two heads, like a monster--namely Christ, and Christ's vicar Peter, and Peter's successor, for the Lord said to Peter himself, "Feed my sheep."

Martin Luther refused to join with Zwingli at Marburg in 1529 for the joint survival of the Protestant territories. The reason: Zwingli interpreted the elements of the Lord's Supper symbolically whereas Luther held that "hoc est meum corpus" means literally and exactly that  (Real Presence). This is Super-literal to impose an arbitrary, selective, and modern literalism on the text without consideration of literary or theological context.

Many errors of interpretation are errors of over-interpretation. This comes from Roman Catholic hermeneutic which relies heavily on allegory and mysticism.
Derives also from the Roman Catholic and Protestand doctrine of illumination, i.e., a meaning "beyond" that which the words and grammar yield.

Quote from: pointmade on Fri May 07, 2010 - 09:01:32
winsome: "3. All scripture needs interpretation and no interpretation can be left to individuals."

In other words you are saying hermeneutics and exegesis are of no value to the common man?

You are aware that hermeneutics guides the process by which divine messages revealed to an ancient world are applied and expounded to the modern world?

That which exists in our minds is not the Word of God itself, but a concept of the Word of God. No one can say, "I do not  interpret the Bible, I just read it and let the words speak for themselves." When anyone forms concepts (accurate or inaccurate) of that which is spoken of in the words of the Bible, interpretation is taking place.

Hermeneutics must be a continuing science because the discipline of archaeology adds new possibilities, sheds new light on the meaning of words, furnishes new information concerning historical events.

Man needs to know the will of God from an objective source (vs. intuition). Pious and devout ignorance is the enemy of sound hermeneutics, and has always been antagonistic to doctrinal truth.

To quote Erasmus: "The Holy Spirit does not sit as a dove on the back of a chair to whisper in anybody's ear, as in the picture of Gregory the Great. There are those who ask  why they should fritter away their days over books when knowledge comes in a flash, as Paul was caught up to the third heaven. But if you are looking for flashes from heaven you will spend a lifetime waiting."

Both, Catholicism and Protestantism use Scripture to rationalize and justify a theological concept or a religious idea which originated independent of the exegetical process. This method is sometimes called "proof texting."

Example: The papal bull "Unum Sanctum" (1302) issued by Boniface VIII addressed to Philip the Fair of France affirming the ascendency of Church over State:
We are obligated by the faith to believe and hold...that there is one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that outside this Church there is neither salvation nor remission of sins...Of this one and only Church there is one body...not two heads, like a monster--namely Christ, and Christ's vicar Peter, and Peter's successor, for the Lord said to Peter himself, "Feed my sheep."

Martin Luther refused to join with Zwingli at Marburg in 1529 for the joint survival of the Protestant territories. The reason: Zwingli interpreted the elements of the Lord's Supper symbolically whereas Luther held that "hoc est meum corpus" means literally and exactly that  (Real Presence). This is Super-literal to impose an arbitrary, selective, and modern literalism on the text without consideration of literary or theological context.

Many errors of interpretation are errors of over-interpretation. This comes from Roman Catholic hermeneutic which relies heavily on allegory and mysticism.
Derives also from the Roman Catholic and Protestand doctrine of illumination, i.e., a meaning "beyond" that which the words and grammar yield.

There is a place for hermeneutics in the understanding of scriptures. My point was about who is the ultimate authority for interpretation for the purposes of defining doctrine as I thought I had made clear in my final sentence (but perhaps I didn't).

Quote:
When the Church defined doctrines, it used scripture as part of the process of coming to it's conclusions, but the definitions were based on its own authority not the authority of scripture.

We are all called to read scripture for our edification and enlightenment. But doctrinal interpretation cannot be left to individuals. The result of that is the myriad of conflicting doctrines in Protestantism.

Christ promised his Church, and only the Church, that he would lead it into all truth.
The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. (Jn 14:26)
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. (Jn 16:13)

There is a place for hermeneutics in the understanding of scriptures. My point was about who is the ultimate authority for interpretation for the purposes of defining doctrine as I thought I had made clear in my final sentence (but perhaps I didn't).

Quote:
When the Church defined doctrines, it used scripture as part of the process of coming to it's conclusions, but the definitions were based on its own authority not the authority of scripture.

We are all called to read scripture for our edification and enlightenment. But doctrinal interpretation cannot be left to individuals. The result of that is the myriad of conflicting doctrines in Protestantism.

Christ promised his Church, and only the Church, that he would lead it into all truth.
The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. (Jn 14:26)
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. (Jn 16:13)




Mike
winsome you always misuse scripture. Your application does not fit. It is your idea of who the church is that blinds you. So when you say God promised his church who are you thinking the church is.  To whom did he send the Holy Spirit? Who are the ones that he sent the Holy Spirit. Was it to just a certain leadership? A magisterial order. There were more disciples then just the twelve. What did Jesus mean when he said of certain disciples " If you continue in my word.
then you are my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."?

You gave me three things to refute what I said of the written authority.  I will address each one when I have more time. 

God bless

I thing point made,  made a good point. Scripture is not as hard to interpret as some want it to be. I mean it is not hard for me to understand Love my neighbor more than myself. We must let Christ be our example and then follow through. What is there to interpret. Even Paul broke it down for us In 1st Cor 13.

Not negating authority but the over emphases of authority and the over emphases of interpretation . Let keep things simple shall we.

God bless   

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 07, 2010 - 10:30:38
I thing point made,  made a good point. Scripture is not as hard to interpret as some want it to be. I mean it is not hard for me to understand Love my neighbor more than myself. We must let Christ be our example and then follow through. What is there to interpret. Even Paul broke it down for us In 1st Cor 13.

Not negating authority but the over emphases of authority and the over emphases of interpretation . Let keep things simple shall we.

God bless   

Of course "love your neighbour" isn't going to generate much disagreement. It's not the sort of scripture that leads to so much argument in these forums. It's the other things like, the Eucharist, baptism, once saved always saved, the place of works in salvation, veneration of Mary, praying to Saints, purgatory, priestly vestments, rituals, etc. etc.

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 07, 2010 - 10:17:53

winsome you always misuse scripture. Your application does not fit. It is your idea of who the church is that blinds you. So when you say God promised his church who are you thinking the church is.  To whom did he send the Holy Spirit? Who are the ones that he sent the Holy Spirit. Was it to just a certain leadership? A magisterial order. There were more disciples then just the twelve. What did Jesus mean when he said of certain disciples " If you continue in my word.
then you are my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."?

You gave me three things to refute what I said of the written authority.  I will address each one when I have more time. 

God bless

Jesus founded a Church (Mt 16:18), he founded it on the Apostles (Eph 2:20)

It is the Church that was described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)

It is the Church that Jesus gave as the final arbiter in disputes. He did not say consult the scriptures but the Church. (Mt 18:17). 

Jesus promised his Church would be indefectible. – the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Mt 16:18). If the Church taught error then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against it.

The promises he made in Jn 14:26 and Jn 16:13 were made to the apostles on whom he founded the Church.

We all receive the Holy Spirit at baptism, but Jesus only made those promises to the apostles, as the leaders and foundation of the Church.

I await your comments on my three points with interest.


" "If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 07, 2010 - 10:30:38
I thing point made,  made a good point. Scripture is not as hard to interpret as some want it to be. I mean it is not hard for me to understand Love my neighbor more than myself. We must let Christ be our example and then follow through. What is there to interpret. Even Paul broke it down for us In 1st Cor 13.

Not negating authority but the over emphases of authority and the over emphases of interpretation . Let keep things simple shall we.

God bless   

The fact that there are over 30,000 different Christian sects is evidence that Scripture is difficult to interpret.  For example, if I were to write the following: 

I never said that you stole money. 

People reading this above statement 2000 years from now can interpreted this simple statement in 4 different ways: 

1) "I never said that you stole money"  could imply that it was another person who made the statement.

2)  "I never said that YOU stole money" could imply that the person stated that it was someone else who stole the money.   

3)  "I never said that you STOLE money." could imply that the person meant that the money was borrowed rather than stolen. 

4)  "I never said that you stole MONEY." could imply that it was not money that was stolen but something else.

If it is possible to interpret this one statement into 4 different meanings, how much more the Bible? 

winsome: "Christ promised his Church, and only the Church, that he would lead it into all truth.
The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. (Jn 14:26)
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. (Jn 16:13)"

Sorry, I had hoped you had an understanding to whom Jesus was speaking in John 16:13. To receive this promise you would have to had been with him from "the beginning." (John 15:27)

You do understand that  Jesus is speaking to men whom the Father had given him ( John 17:6)??
In John, chapters 13-17 Jesus is speaking to men who had heard direct revelation while "being with yet him" as He sent them out to preach (Ma. 10). No one! I repeat, No one, living today is promised this manifestation of the Holy Spirit. If you think so, try working John 14:14 into you hermeneutics. I would like to make arangements for you to come with me to the cansor ward of any hospital!

Listen again to the promise of Jesus: "If you shall ask anything in my name I will do it." You, I, the pope in Rome cannot do this! It is absurd to even include this discourse in the "upper room" into your theology of understanding! "These things have I spoken unto YOU, being YET PRESENT with YOU." (Sorry for the emphasis, but until one gets a handle on to whom Jesus is speaking in Scripture you will remain forever in the dark of His teachings.....

Quote from: pointmade on Fri May 07, 2010 - 17:07:26


You do understand that  Jesus is speaking to men whom the Father had given him ( John 17:6)??
In John, chapters 13-17 Jesus is speaking to men who had heard direct revelation while "being with yet him" as He sent them out to preach (Ma. 10). No one! I repeat, No one, living today is promised this manifestation of the Holy Spirit. If you think so, try working John 14:14 into you hermeneutics. I would like to make arangements for you to come with me to the cansor ward of any hospital!

Listen again to the promise of Jesus: "If you shall ask anything in my name I will do it." You, I, the pope in Rome cannot do this! It is absurd to even include this discourse in the "upper room" into your theology of understanding! "These things have I spoken unto YOU, being YET PRESENT with YOU." (Sorry for the emphasis, but until one gets a handle on to whom Jesus is speaking in Scripture you will remain forever in the dark of His teachings.....

You say that no one living today is promised this manifestation of the Holy Spirit?  I disagree.  St. Paul says this to the Gentiles who have never seen Jesus Christ: 

Ephesians 1:13  In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise,

1 Corinthians 6:19  Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own?

In these scripture, St. Paul speaks to the Gentiles who have never known Christ before.  Therefore, the Holy Spirit was not only given to the Apostles, but also to people who have come to believe in Jesus despite that they have never seen Him. 

Quote from: Selene on Fri May 07, 2010 - 17:23:35

Quote from: pointmade on Fri May 07, 2010 - 17:07:26


You do understand that  Jesus is speaking to men whom the Father had given him ( John 17:6)??
In John, chapters 13-17 Jesus is speaking to men who had heard direct revelation while "being with yet him" as He sent them out to preach (Ma. 10). No one! I repeat, No one, living today is promised this manifestation of the Holy Spirit. If you think so, try working John 14:14 into you hermeneutics. I would like to make arangements for you to come with me to the cansor ward of any hospital!

Listen again to the promise of Jesus: "If you shall ask anything in my name I will do it." You, I, the pope in Rome cannot do this! It is absurd to even include this discourse in the "upper room" into your theology of understanding! "These things have I spoken unto YOU, being YET PRESENT with YOU." (Sorry for the emphasis, but until one gets a handle on to whom Jesus is speaking in Scripture you will remain forever in the dark of His teachings.....

You say that no one living today is promised this manifestation of the Holy Spirit?  I disagree.  St. Paul says this to the Gentiles who have never seen Jesus Christ: 

Ephesians 1:13  In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise,

1 Corinthians 6:19  Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own?

In these scripture, St. Paul speaks to the Gentiles who have never known Christ before.  Therefore, the Holy Spirit was not only given to the Apostles, but also to people who have come to believe in Jesus despite that they have never seen Him. 

We don't agree many times Selene but I'm fully with you here.
My question to the poster, did Jesus heal every one . certainly he healed many and could have healed all but he did not. Most today lack the kind of faith that is needed to really heal and there are many sharletens out there. But faith is the key.

Quote from: winsome on Fri May 07, 2010 - 11:13:35

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 07, 2010 - 10:30:38
I thing point made,  made a good point. Scripture is not as hard to interpret as some want it to be. I mean it is not hard for me to understand Love my neighbor more than myself. We must let Christ be our example and then follow through. What is there to interpret. Even Paul broke it down for us In 1st Cor 13.

Not negating authority but the over emphases of authority and the over emphases of interpretation . Let keep things simple shall we.

God bless   

Of course "love your neighbour" isn't going to generate much disagreement. It's not the sort of scripture that leads to so much argument in these forums. It's the other things like, the Eucharist, baptism, once saved always saved, the place of works in salvation, veneration of Mary, praying to Saints, purgatory, priestly vestments, rituals, etc. etc.

What is up with praying to saints? The only person I pray to is God and noone else.

Quote from: YesImAFreshman on Mon May 10, 2010 - 18:01:02

Quote from: winsome on Fri May 07, 2010 - 11:13:35

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 07, 2010 - 10:30:38
I thing point made,  made a good point. Scripture is not as hard to interpret as some want it to be. I mean it is not hard for me to understand Love my neighbor more than myself. We must let Christ be our example and then follow through. What is there to interpret. Even Paul broke it down for us In 1st Cor 13.

Not negating authority but the over emphases of authority and the over emphases of interpretation . Let keep things simple shall we.

God bless   

Of course "love your neighbour" isn't going to generate much disagreement. It's not the sort of scripture that leads to so much argument in these forums. It's the other things like, the Eucharist, baptism, once saved always saved, the place of works in salvation, veneration of Mary, praying to Saints, purgatory, priestly vestments, rituals, etc. etc.

What is up with praying to saints? The only person I pray to is God and noone else.

You never pray for others?

Quote from: winsome on Tue May 11, 2010 - 02:36:27

Quote from: YesImAFreshman on Mon May 10, 2010 - 18:01:02

Quote from: winsome on Fri May 07, 2010 - 11:13:35

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 07, 2010 - 10:30:38
I thing point made,  made a good point. Scripture is not as hard to interpret as some want it to be. I mean it is not hard for me to understand Love my neighbor more than myself. We must let Christ be our example and then follow through. What is there to interpret. Even Paul broke it down for us In 1st Cor 13.

Not negating authority but the over emphases of authority and the over emphases of interpretation . Let keep things simple shall we.

God bless   

Of course "love your neighbour" isn't going to generate much disagreement. It's not the sort of scripture that leads to so much argument in these forums. It's the other things like, the Eucharist, baptism, once saved always saved, the place of works in salvation, veneration of Mary, praying to Saints, purgatory, priestly vestments, rituals, etc. etc.

What is up with praying to saints? The only person I pray to is God and noone else.

You never pray for others?

I don't recall where Jesus told us to pray to someone else. I pray for others all the time. I pray for myself. I suppose you can ask someone to pray for you but i usually encourage these people to pray personally for themselves. Many do not know or understand that they have a personal relationship in the spirit. Jesus encourages us to pray to the Father. This is in the Lords prayer which is our model for praying. He said come boldly unto the throne of grace. In the Old testament the throne of grace was the Holy of Holies and only the High priest could go beyond the Vail. But the Vail now is removed that separates us from Him. we now come to the throne of God in the spirit where Jesus is our High Priest. I don't have to ask someone else to pray for me. No not the saints but Christ who ever intercedes for me.

God bless

You may not recall it, but God clearly did.  Asking others for their prayers, praying for the intersession of others, is as old as the Scriptures...

James 5:16  "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful."

2 Thessalonians 1:11  "...to this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,"

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue May 11, 2010 - 13:54:08

Quote from: winsome on Tue May 11, 2010 - 02:36:27

Quote from: YesImAFreshman on Mon May 10, 2010 - 18:01:02

Quote from: winsome on Fri May 07, 2010 - 11:13:35

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 07, 2010 - 10:30:38
I thing point made,  made a good point. Scripture is not as hard to interpret as some want it to be. I mean it is not hard for me to understand Love my neighbor more than myself. We must let Christ be our example and then follow through. What is there to interpret. Even Paul broke it down for us In 1st Cor 13.

Not negating authority but the over emphases of authority and the over emphases of interpretation . Let keep things simple shall we.

God bless   

Of course "love your neighbour" isn't going to generate much disagreement. It's not the sort of scripture that leads to so much argument in these forums. It's the other things like, the Eucharist, baptism, once saved always saved, the place of works in salvation, veneration of Mary, praying to Saints, purgatory, priestly vestments, rituals, etc. etc.

What is up with praying to saints? The only person I pray to is God and noone else.

You never pray for others?

I don't recall where Jesus told us to pray to someone else. I pray for others all the time. I pray for myself. I suppose you can ask someone to pray for you but i usually encourage these people to pray personally for themselves. Many do not know or understand that they have a personal relationship in the spirit. Jesus encourages us to pray to the Father. This is in the Lords prayer which is our model for praying. He said come boldly unto the throne of grace. In the Old testament the throne of grace was the Holy of Holies and only the High priest could go beyond the Vail. But the Vail now is removed that separates us from Him. we now come to the throne of God in the spirit where Jesus is our High Priest. I don't have to ask someone else to pray for me. No not the saints but Christ who ever intercedes for me.

God bless

I posted this on another thread:



Do not be misled by the term praying to, it is just a shorthand.
Perhaps we should say praying through or asking for their intercession, but pray to is a handy term. It does not mean that Mary and the Saints are the object of our prayer. And pray here just means ask.

PRAY from the Online Entymology Dictionary
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.

So pray means ask earnestly or beg. If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as "prithee sir

That is the orthodox definition and is excellent, Winsome.  How do we know the saints in heaven hear our prayers?  Because they are the Church, just as we are.  The Church is one, the Body is one, the soul eternal.  There are not separate "bodies" of Christ.  If my hand is injured, does not the whole body know it?  In our spiritual injuries, the whole Body is aware of it and will pray for us.

Pax

Quote from: winsome on Tue May 11, 2010 - 02:36:27

Quote from: YesImAFreshman on Mon May 10, 2010 - 18:01:02

Quote from: winsome on Fri May 07, 2010 - 11:13:35

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 07, 2010 - 10:30:38
I thing point made,  made a good point. Scripture is not as hard to interpret as some want it to be. I mean it is not hard for me to understand Love my neighbor more than myself. We must let Christ be our example and then follow through. What is there to interpret. Even Paul broke it down for us In 1st Cor 13.

Not negating authority but the over emphases of authority and the over emphases of interpretation . Let keep things simple shall we.

God bless   

Of course "love your neighbour" isn't going to generate much disagreement. It's not the sort of scripture that leads to so much argument in these forums. It's the other things like, the Eucharist, baptism, once saved always saved, the place of works in salvation, veneration of Mary, praying to Saints, purgatory, priestly vestments, rituals, etc. etc.

What is up with praying to saints? The only person I pray to is God and noone else.

You never pray for others?

I pray for others but to others

Quote from: winsome on Tue May 11, 2010 - 15:23:14

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue May 11, 2010 - 13:54:08

Quote from: winsome on Tue May 11, 2010 - 02:36:27

Quote from: YesImAFreshman on Mon May 10, 2010 - 18:01:02

Quote from: winsome on Fri May 07, 2010 - 11:13:35

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 07, 2010 - 10:30:38
I thing point made,  made a good point. Scripture is not as hard to interpret as some want it to be. I mean it is not hard for me to understand Love my neighbor more than myself. We must let Christ be our example and then follow through. What is there to interpret. Even Paul broke it down for us In 1st Cor 13.

Not negating authority but the over emphases of authority and the over emphases of interpretation . Let keep things simple shall we.

God bless   

Thank you winsome for clearing that up for me because the way i have heard it said, it sounded like Catholics prayed to different saints for different things.
Of course "love your neighbour" isn't going to generate much disagreement. It's not the sort of scripture that leads to so much argument in these forums. It's the other things like, the Eucharist, baptism, once saved always saved, the place of works in salvation, veneration of Mary, praying to Saints, purgatory, priestly vestments, rituals, etc. etc.

What is up with praying to saints? The only person I pray to is God and noone else.

You never pray for others?

I don't recall where Jesus told us to pray to someone else. I pray for others all the time. I pray for myself. I suppose you can ask someone to pray for you but i usually encourage these people to pray personally for themselves. Many do not know or understand that they have a personal relationship in the spirit. Jesus encourages us to pray to the Father. This is in the Lords prayer which is our model for praying. He said come boldly unto the throne of grace. In the Old testament the throne of grace was the Holy of Holies and only the High priest could go beyond the Vail. But the Vail now is removed that separates us from Him. we now come to the throne of God in the spirit where Jesus is our High Priest. I don't have to ask someone else to pray for me. No not the saints but Christ who ever intercedes for me.

God bless

I posted this on another thread:



Do not be misled by the term praying to, it is just a shorthand.
Perhaps we should say praying through or asking for their intercession, but pray to is a handy term. It does not mean that Mary and the Saints are the object of our prayer. And pray here just means ask.

PRAY from the Online Entymology Dictionary
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.

So pray means ask earnestly or beg. If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as "prithee sir

Quote from: desertknight on Tue May 11, 2010 - 14:16:44
You may not recall it, but God clearly did.  Asking others for their prayers, praying for the intersession of others, is as old as the Scriptures...

James 5:16  "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful."

2 Thessalonians 1:11  "...to this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,"

James 5:16 was taken out of context. We are being taught through this scripture to confess our wrongdoings to those we do the wrong to not to confess to eachother in the same manner that we do God.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 says to pray "for" not pray "to".

Isaiah 8:19
When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in  the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.

We are only to ask for things from Christ and through Christ.  Talking to the dead is sinful.

Bond

We are to confess our sins to one another and that is something that is both encouraged privately and practised publicly in the Catholic faith.  So much so that at every Mass there is a public confession to each other for our transgressions against our brothers and against God.  James 5 then clearly says that we are to pray for one another, and in several other passages of Scripture that have been sited.  That is all we do when we pray for a saint's intersession.  We are praying for them to pray for us, just as we ask those saints still with us on earth.



Psalm 141:2  "Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice."

Quote from: BondServant on Tue May 11, 2010 - 20:51:30
Isaiah 8:19
When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in  the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.

We are only to ask for things from Christ and through Christ.  Talking to the dead is sinful.

Bond

"Have you not read what was said to you by God, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living"? (Mt 22:31-32)

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb 12:1-2)

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, And to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24)

Prayers to the saints is not divination, or soothsaying, auguring, or sorcerery, or necromancy.  It is prayer to those living in Christ, the God of eternal life.

Pax

At the Transfiguration, Christ also spoke to Elijah and Moses.  Elijah and Moses no longer existed on the earth, but when Christ was speaking to them, he was not consulting with dead people. 

Quote from: desertknight on Tue May 11, 2010 - 21:14:13

Quote from: BondServant on Tue May 11, 2010 - 20:51:30
Isaiah 8:19
When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in  the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.

We are only to ask for things from Christ and through Christ.  Talking to the dead is sinful.

Bond

"Have you not read what was said to you by God, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living"? (Mt 22:31-32)

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb 12:1-2)

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, And to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24)

Prayers to the saints is not divination, or soothsaying, auguring, or sorcerery, or necromancy.  It is prayer to those living in Christ, the God of eternal life.

Pax

And you're not understanding that scripture is clear in saying that there is only ONE Mediator for our sins.

A christian does not need to seek out the counsel of the saints when we have Christ. Its just that simple. No matter how you interpret scripture there is no precedent that supports this practices. At least not in early Christianity or Judaism. There are some similar practices in paganism.

Quote from: Selene on Tue May 11, 2010 - 23:41:33
At the Transfiguration, Christ also spoke to Elijah and Moses.  Elijah and Moses no longer existed on the earth, but when Christ was speaking to them, he was not consulting with dead people. 

This is a completely different relationship Im afraid.

Elijah and Moses physically appeared to Christ. Christ did not bow His head, like He did when He prayed to God, and called upon the names of Elijah and Moses begging for their counsel or intercession.

So you see this isnt really relevant when discussing the matter of this specific catholic practice.

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed May 12, 2010 - 08:23:16

Quote from: desertknight on Tue May 11, 2010 - 21:14:13

Quote from: BondServant on Tue May 11, 2010 - 20:51:30
Isaiah 8:19
When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in  the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.

We are only to ask for things from Christ and through Christ.  Talking to the dead is sinful.

Bond

"Have you not read what was said to you by God, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living"? (Mt 22:31-32)

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb 12:1-2)

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, And to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24)

Prayers to the saints is not divination, or soothsaying, auguring, or sorcerery, or necromancy.  It is prayer to those living in Christ, the God of eternal life.

Pax

And you're not understanding that scripture is clear in saying that there is only ONE Mediator for our sins.

A christian does not need to seek out the counsel of the saints when we have Christ. Its just that simple. No matter how you interpret scripture there is no precedent that supports this practices. At least not in early Christianity or Judaism. There are some similar practices in paganism.

Intercession is not mediation for sins.

We are asking the Saints in heaven to intercede for us just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us.

Plenty of scripture has been given for this (asking others to intercede for us).

Quote from: winsome on Wed May 12, 2010 - 08:58:02

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed May 12, 2010 - 08:23:16

Quote from: desertknight on Tue May 11, 2010 - 21:14:13

Quote from: BondServant on Tue May 11, 2010 - 20:51:30
Isaiah 8:19
When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in  the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.

We are only to ask for things from Christ and through Christ.  Talking to the dead is sinful.

Bond

"Have you not read what was said to you by God, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living"? (Mt 22:31-32)

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb 12:1-2)

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, And to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24)

Prayers to the saints is not divination, or soothsaying, auguring, or sorcerery, or necromancy.  It is prayer to those living in Christ, the God of eternal life.

Pax

And you're not understanding that scripture is clear in saying that there is only ONE Mediator for our sins.

A christian does not need to seek out the counsel of the saints when we have Christ. Its just that simple. No matter how you interpret scripture there is no precedent that supports this practices. At least not in early Christianity or Judaism. There are some similar practices in paganism.

Intercession is not mediation for sins.

We are asking the Saints in heaven to intercede for us just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us.

Plenty of scripture has been given for this (asking others to intercede for us).

I undertsand what you mean by intercession. I thought your peers were actually trying to validate praying to the saints for the remission of sin. I misunderstood their position.

However whats the purpose for praying to another follower who has their own flaws for their intercession when there's a Master in Heaven who's more capable to intercede and is flawless, almight, omnipresent, etc.? I don't understand how this practice is even necessary. It just seems to esteem followers of Christ higher than they need be.

Granted no catholic has ever stated that any man is greater than any of the Trinity. There is a such thing a glorifying man too high.

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed May 12, 2010 - 09:06:21Granted no catholic has ever stated that any man is greater than any of the Trinity. There is a such thing a glorifying man too high.

There should be No glory to man at all:

Ask not what man can do for God (because there is nothing)...but, ask what Jesus can do through you (because He is everything)! 

When you get to the point of allowing Jesus to work through you (intimately)...there will be a strong calm of sanity in your life.  There you will find peace...