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I'm trying to keep this as short as I can for reading here in this forum. For the complete writing on this visit my website at www.ourchurch.com.member/m/ministering and click on Second Coming as I have written all of this indepth so you can see the whole of what God has already spoken about these events.



There is a lot of talk, teachings and even movies about a Pre-trib rapture coming before a Great Tribulation and these are false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan) as I want to show you how false these teachings are. He who has ears to hear and eyes to see the Spiritual things of God are those who will know the mysteries of the word of God. I too use to believe these teachings, but something in my Spirit never set well with them until I started reading all the scriptures that were given to support this theory or false teachings.

These pre-trib theories started in the 1800's and continued with Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first taught the pretrib view in 1830. Her theory was handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something. First I want to show you what the seven year tribulation was. (Actually the Bible never talks about seven years, but 3½ only) Yes was as we will always have tribulations and persecutions until the day Jesus returns in the clouds to take us home.

Daniel Chapters 7 and 9 have been misinterpreted for the purpose of backing up the theory of the beast and the Antichrist. I will start with Chapter 7 to show you what the meaning of the four beast are and then break down Daniel 9:24-27 to show you that it was Daniels vision of the birth and the resurrection of Christ. Please read these Chapters and verses very carefully and allow the Holy Spirit teach you truth.

Daniel Chapter 7 was an interpretation of a dream that Nebuchadnezzar had about four nations. Within these four nations we see how Satan tries to rule through man, but the kingdom of God prevails in judgment against these nations and the nations are turned over to the people of God for eternity. Notice also where these present day places in parentheses are located. Pagan nations also were often called beast in the Old Testament, which shows us to not take some words literally, but to define the definition of the word. 

Four nations:

Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon.

Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.

Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.

Roman Empire:
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.       

The seven year great tribulation, which is not found anywhere in scripture, was derived by mans misinterpretation of Daniel 9:24-27. This is what the Bible clearly reveals about the seventy weeks. From vs.24 to vs.27 was seventy weeks or 490 days beginning with Ezra, Ezra chapter 3-6, rebuilding the temple to the time of the Messiah (Jesus Christ) being fulfilled in His birth, death and resurrection. In a sense it was a literal and spiritual temple that was being built.  Ezra was teaching the people of the Spiritual temple of God that indwell in all that believed in God and of the coming of Messiah. There was actually a five hundred year span from Ezra till the birth of Jesus that God shut himself off from National Israel because of their transgressions towards the Lord, but saved a remnant that would believe in the coming of Messiah, Isaiah 10.  As still today, God still waits for National Israel to repent and believe in the name of Jesus.


Daniel 9:24-27 the Vision of the Seventy Weeks

Vs. 24 this verse shows us that the timing from Ezra to the cross was 490 days as within that time Ezra was reestablishing the law in Jerusalem until Jesus had fulfilled the end of transgression, made an end to sin, made reconciliation for iniquity and bring everlasting righteousness and to seal up the prophecy to make an end to the law through the cross.

Vs. 25 from the time of the cross, which also means the last days, which includes what some like to separate and call the Great Tribulation, which is not mentioned anywhere in scripture and is not a separate event after the elect of God are caught up, but as the last days so we are in tribulation times until the end of the world as we know it; Acts 2:17; Hebrews 1:1,2; Matthew 24:4-31; Mark 13:24-31; Luke 21:5-36. These are just some of the scriptures that support that we will go through all things of Rev Chapter 6-21. Everyone will have opportunity to come unto salvation through Jesus Christ if they would only believe until the door of salvation is closed when Jesus calls us and we meet him in the clouds, which after this time no one can be saved, Matthew 25:10.

Vs.26 after 434 years that end in the year AD29 shall Messiah be cut off. Jesus was crucified after he was baptized in AD 29 three and a half years later. Jesus was cut off (killed) by the people of the prince, which means National Israel or other words the Pharisees, Sanhedrin and the high priest that destroy the city and the sanctuary (meaning Christ) and the end thereof shall be with a flood (Gods wrath) that will put an end to abominations by desolation or in other words a ruin to evil deeds. Daniel 9:27 explains the definitions of desolation of abominations or the ruin of evil deeds. There is no actual Desolations of Abominations where the so-called Antichrist will take a literal throne, but the desolation will be when the Pope tries to take his throne in Jerusalem, Daniel 11:36-45. Gods' word never defines one great Antichrist, but says there are many antichrists, 1John2:18; 11 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Revelation 11:7. The seven years that some call the seven year tribulation means three and a half years of Jesus teaching before he was crucified and three and a half years of Steven teaching before he was stoned to death, which took place after Jesus was ascended.   

Vs.27 the 70th seven began with Christ baptism in AD 29 and three years later at the end of the first half of the 70th seven sacrifices and offering ceased because Christ hung on the cross. From the giving of the law in 458BC when Ezra went to establish the law, or to rebuild the spiritual city right to the cross where the first 69 sevens. The 70th seven is from the time of the cross until Jesus comes back in the clouds to call his church home and for the overspreading of abominations he will make desolate, or make an end to all who would not believe.

A rapture, or as the Bible calls it, caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds, Matthew 24:27-31; Matthew 26:64; Mark 13:26, will take place and as Matthew 24:36 says no one will know when. There is no mention in scripture of a seven-year tribulation or a literal 1000-year reign of Christ. Revelation 20 is not a literal 1000 years. It states in scripture that we reign with Christ the day we ask him into our hearts and become heirs of the throne of grace, 1 Peter 2:19; Romans 8:14-17; Galatians 3:29.

Why would Jesus come in the clouds to take us home to paradise just to bring us back to earth for another 1000 years. Matthew 24:29-31; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1Corinthians 15:51, 52 all talk about the last trumpet of God, which is the same trumpet of Revelation 11:15-19, and declares final judgment, which is the end of the world.  Revelation 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The words, should be finished, means the end of this world.

John 6:54 Whoso eath my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. We must remember, the Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers and when we are taken up to be with the Lord that means the Holy Spirit is also taken up, which gives no one left on earth a second chance, because there would be no one left to explain the truths of Gods salvation and we know that truth only comes by the Holy Spirit giving us knowledge of Gods word. If there were a second chance then why wouldn't we live our lives like heathens and then repent when the time came.

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

If there is a pre-trib rapture then quote it from the New Testament with chapter and verse.  There is a post-trib rapture; Matt 24:29 immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the powers of heaven be shaken and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with a trumpet sound and they shall gather His elect.

Actually, the last trumpet is in the middle of the tribulation, before God's wrath is poured out on the earth, and after which there can be no salvation.

Bond

Quote from: Saul 25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 22:07:34

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

Quote from: Saul 25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 22:07:34

If there is a pre-trib rapture then quote it from the New Testament with chapter and verse.  There is a post-trib rapture; Matt 24:29 immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the powers of heaven be shaken and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with a trumpet sound and they shall gather His elect.

I'm sorry Saul but we have gone somewhat into this in another thread with no resolution. You consider something to happen at different times or trumps with that of the last trump; they are not one and the same event.

So as to give others a clue of what I am saying is that being caught up to meet the Lord in the air not proceeding those which sleep is not the same as rising from the grave incorruptible to the earth.

Make of it what you will as there's no need arguing if you don't consider certain scripture, but Revelation 3:10 is a promise to them who patiently keep Christ's word to be kept from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world.

Matthew 24:29-31 surely is a collecting of Christ's people from all over in heaven. Notice verse thirty-one: is it the last trump; are all made incorruptible to enter the millennium? If this occurs in heaven, who are they that are on the earth? Just who are these that were gathered?

Quote from: Saul 25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 22:07:34

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

If there is a pre-trib rapture then quote it from the New Testament with chapter and verse.  There is a post-trib rapture; Matt 24:29 immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the powers of heaven be shaken and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with a trumpet sound and they shall gather His elect.

i belive this is pre wrath (before the day of the lord and the trumpets)
jesus said after the tribulation of those days, the days he previously described, not after the 70th week

after that, the salvation of 1/3rd of israel begins, which is why we see the 144000 sealed, and others who appear to be jews (2 witnesses, woman protected, and those who sing the song of moses)

then at the sheep and goats- a remnant of gentiles who did not worship the beast saved to populate the millenium

Quote from: Saul 25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 22:07:34

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

If there is a pre-trib rapture then quote it from the New Testament with chapter and verse.  There is a post-trib rapture; Matt 24:29 immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the powers of heaven be shaken and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with a trumpet sound and they shall gather His elect.

Ok! 

John 14:2-3
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 

Jesus is going to prepare a place for us that were He is we may also.

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

We shall all not die or sleep, but be changed. \

When?

I Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here it says at the last trump, the dead will be raised and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trumpet is the trumpet of God. The dead shall be raised and then we shall be changed and caught up together with them in the clouds.

2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is not the rapture. It a day and not an event.

:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Once again, this is about the day of Christ, that the son of perdiition must be revealed first.

2 Thess 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Do you know what is witholding the son of perdition?

2 Thess 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Something is taken out of the way before this can happen.

2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The trumpets that are blowed after this, are they blow by angels or God?

The scripture is clear that the trumpet of God is sounded before the dead is raised and we are caught up together with them to mee the Lord.

Grace to all.

 10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,

this is at the start of the day of the lord (day of christ)

the great trumpet sound is behind him meaning it has occured and kicked off the rapture and day of the lord

where else is the great trumpet sound and day of the lord mentioned?

matt 24
31and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

this after the triple signs in the sun moon and stars (6th seal), with the multitude in rev 7

is john the apostle one of the 24 elders?

if so why is he clearly separate from them in revelation?

if not why is he a mere "servant" holding a palm branch with us modern christians reigning over him?

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 00:19:59

Quote from: Saul 25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 22:07:34

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

If there is a pre-trib rapture then quote it from the New Testament with chapter and verse.  There is a post-trib rapture; Matt 24:29 immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the powers of heaven be shaken and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with a trumpet sound and they shall gather His elect.

Ok! 

John 14:2-3
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 

Jesus is going to prepare a place for us that were He is we may also.

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

We shall all not die or sleep, but be changed. \

When?

I Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here it says at the last trump, the dead will be raised and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trumpet is the trumpet of God. The dead shall be raised and then we shall be changed and caught up together with them in the clouds.

2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is not the rapture. It a day and not an event.

:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Once again, this is about the day of Christ, that the son of perdiition must be revealed first.

2 Thess 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Do you know what is witholding the son of perdition?

2 Thess 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Something is taken out of the way before this can happen.

2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The trumpets that are blowed after this, are they blow by angels or God?

The scripture is clear that the trumpet of God is sounded before the dead is raised and we are caught up together with them to mee the Lord.

Grace to all.

I pointed out scripture that quoted Jesus as saying that He would return after the tribulation in the sky with angels and a trumpet and that He would gather the apostles(church fathers).  You did not present a single scripture that says that there is going to be a pre-trib rapture. Jesus said that He would return for the disciples after the tribulation, others wrote of the return of Christ to gather the disciples and you have CHOSEN to call that return a pre-trib return even though Jesus Himself said that it would be post-trib. 
   Again, there is no pre-trib rapture found in the New Testament, people have CHOSEN TO BELIEVE that it exists and then have placed the pre-trib rapture on other scriptures.  Satan came to Christ and offered Him the
crown without the cross, and Jesus refused.  Satan came to the contemporary church and have offered them the rapture without the tribulation, and the contemporary church has accepted the offer of satan.

Quote from: glen on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 09:25:36
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,

this is at the start of the day of the lord (day of christ)

the great trumpet sound is behind him meaning it has occured and kicked off the rapture and day of the lord

where else is the great trumpet sound and day of the lord mentioned?

matt 24
31and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

this after the triple signs in the sun moon and stars (6th seal), with the multitude in rev 7

Hi: It appears to me that the things that John saw and experienced in Revelation were things that actually happened at that time up until the first seal of the scroll was opened.  In other words John was caught up into actual Heaven at that time and was presented with an opportunity to see and record the coming DAY OF THE LORD(would include Christ return).  When the scroll was opened THEN what John saw was in the future Day of the Lord.  I see no reason at this time to believe that any of those seals of the scroll have actually been opened(the opening of them was something John saw in the future). The first seal was the conquering antichrist and that has not yet happened.  I believe that we are near the time of the opening of the first seal but I do not believe that it has yet happened.

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

First I never said I agree or disagreed with you as I only present the scriptures the way God has already spoken them apart from what others may teach. I use to believe in the whole pretrib rapture thing as it made sense to my carnal knowledge of Gods word as the way others presented it to me, but even after reading all the scriptures they gave to support a pretrib rapture I find nothing written about a pretrib rapture, but what I do read is that we will endure all things of tribulations and those who endure until the end, end of what...tribulation, the same shall be saved.

If you would have read my whole class on this and studied the scriptures given to support what I have written then maybe, just maybe you will see why I believe the way I do. If there are scriptures that actually say we will be raptured out of here before a great 7 year tribulation then please enlighten me as I have never found any to support this theory.

We might not see these persecutions (tribulations) here in America....yet, but there are many martyrs in other countries being tortured, beheaded and dragged through the streets and even imprisoned for the words sake so do not even tell me we will be spared any Great Tribulation.

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 16:00:59

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

First I never said I agree or disagreed with you as I only present the scriptures the way God has already spoken them apart from what others may teach. I use to believe in the whole pretrib rapture thing as it made sense to my carnal knowledge of Gods word as the way others presented it to me, but even after reading all the scriptures they gave to support a pretrib rapture I find nothing written about a pretrib rapture, but what I do read is that we will endure all things of tribulations and those who endure until the end, end of what...tribulation, the same shall be saved.

If you would have read my whole class on this and studied the scriptures given to support what I have written then maybe, just maybe you will see why I believe the way I do. If there are scriptures that actually say we will be raptured out of here before a great 7 year tribulation then please enlighten me as I have never found any to support this theory.

We might not see these persecutions (tribulations) here in America....yet, but there are many martyrs in other countries being tortured, beheaded and dragged through the streets and even imprisoned for the words sake so do not even tell me we will be spared any Great Tribulation.

Hi Debbie: I enjoyed your post. Years ago I also believed in a pre-trib rapture because that was all that was taught,however I was always sceptical because Jesus was specific that He would gather the believers after the tribulation. Now after years of study I know beyond any doubt that Jesus will return to gather the church after the tribulation because that is what is clearly in the bible.  It strikes me as remarkable that Spirit indwelt believers will defend an idea that cannot be found in the bible, if it cannot be found in the bible then it has to have been added by someone other thanGod(is that really hard to comprehend?).

Quote from: Saul 25 on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 20:38:00

Hi Debbie: I enjoyed your post. Years ago I also believed in a pre-trib rapture because that was all that was taught, however I was always skeptical because Jesus was specific that He would gather the believers after the tribulation. Now after years of study I know beyond any doubt that Jesus will return to gather the church after the tribulation because that is what is clearly in the bible.  It strikes me as remarkable that Spirit indwelt believers will defend an idea that cannot be found in the bible, if it cannot be found in the bible then it has to have been added by someone other than God (is that really hard to comprehend?).

Because you do not understand a concept it has to be other than God, or as Debbie says, "These are false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)? And then only those who endure until the end shall be saved; doesn't leave much hope for all those who sleep at this present time, or that are killed during the tribulation for not accepting the mark of the beast huh?

Any good intent as Christians is incredulous when name calling, or the putting down of others has to take place to simply debate and learn from one another about our Savior. If you don't believe it the way I believe it you just ain't no good, no how, or no way. And for some reason lately we seem to be a magnet for that kind of thinking.

I might give an example of my thinking on this and that is by bring forth a few brethren's names I do not agree with in doctrine, though I know them from their testimony to absolutely love the Lord. If you will get to know them, I believe you'll learn to love them as the Lord does. These are in no special order but I think of Davidandme (SVM), winsome (Catholic), Ryan (Eastern Orthodox), blituri (Not sure exactly), and then all the wonderful ones that agree with me. I've got one I always call Sis, one as a cousin, and just so many special to my heart.

There are many others that I loved very much that had problem with rules, especially suggesting others were not Christians by their beliefs on certain scriptures and that should not be so with us, and they are no longer with us. I miss some of them dearly. May God lead us to accept one another that do believe even with different doctrines to the glory of God in Jesus' name.

My thoughts.

BTW - There is a pre-trib.    

Quote from: Saul 25 on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 15:11:42

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 00:19:59

Quote from: Saul 25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 22:07:34

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

If there is a pre-trib rapture then quote it from the New Testament with chapter and verse.  There is a post-trib rapture; Matt 24:29 immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the powers of heaven be shaken and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with a trumpet sound and they shall gather His elect.

Ok! 

John 14:2-3
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 

Jesus is going to prepare a place for us that were He is we may also.

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

We shall all not die or sleep, but be changed. \

When?

I Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here it says at the last trump, the dead will be raised and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trumpet is the trumpet of God. The dead shall be raised and then we shall be changed and caught up together with them in the clouds.

2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is not the rapture. It a day and not an event.

:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Once again, this is about the day of Christ, that the son of perdiition must be revealed first.

2 Thess 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Do you know what is witholding the son of perdition?

2 Thess 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Something is taken out of the way before this can happen.

2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The trumpets that are blowed after this, are they blow by angels or God?

The scripture is clear that the trumpet of God is sounded before the dead is raised and we are caught up together with them to mee the Lord.

Grace to all.

I pointed out scripture that quoted Jesus as saying that He would return after the tribulation in the sky with angels and a trumpet and that He would gather the apostles(church fathers).  You did not present a single scripture that says that there is going to be a pre-trib rapture. Jesus said that He would return for the disciples after the tribulation, others wrote of the return of Christ to gather the disciples and you have CHOSEN to call that return a pre-trib return even though Jesus Himself said that it would be post-trib. 
   Again, there is no pre-trib rapture found in the New Testament, people have CHOSEN TO BELIEVE that it exists and then have placed the pre-trib rapture on other scriptures.  Satan came to Christ and offered Him the
crown without the cross, and Jesus refused.  Satan came to the contemporary church and have offered them the rapture without the tribulation, and the contemporary church has accepted the offer of satan.

Then you should read it again. The 24 elders represents the 12 tribs of Isreal and the 12 opostles. No where after Rev 4 is there a trumpet of God blown. The church is withholding the anit-christ from being revealed. Once the church is gone, then he will appear.

The rapture(the resurrection of the Just) is our Salvation. You must rightly divide the word of God. Is the scripture talking to the church, Jews or Gentiles. That's why there are various teachings, pre trib, mid trib and post trib.

The scriptures are full of proving that we are not going through the tribulations. Their will be people saved during the trib which is why people say that we will go through it. Their are a couple raptures during the tribulation. The mulitude, the two witnesses, the 144,000 and then towards the end the believers are killed for worshiping the beast and taking his number.

The church doesn't need to go through the tribulation, it is sent as a strong delusion for those that do not believe the truth. The scripture is also clear that we are waiting for Jesus to be revealed from heaven, not come down, but to be revealed. No where does it say we are waiting for the anti-Christ to show up.

True believers know this is true, the Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth, but false teachers will not hear the truth, but decieve other and being decieved.

Grace to all.

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 23:55:07

Then you should read it again. The 24 elders represents the 12 tribes of Isreal and the 12 apostles. No where after Rev 4 is there a trumpet of God blown. The church is withholding the anit-christ from being revealed. Once the church is gone, then he will appear.

The scriptures are full of proving that we are not going through the tribulations. Their will be people saved during the trib which is why people say that we will go through it. Their are a couple raptures during the tribulation. The mulitude, the two witnesses, the 144,000 and then towards the end the believers are killed for worshiping the beast and taking his number.

The church doesn't need to go through the tribulation, it is sent as a strong delusion for those that do not believe the truth. The scripture is also clear that we are waiting for Jesus to be revealed from heaven, not come down, but to be revealed. No where does it say we are waiting for the anti-Christ to show up.

Loved it NTPREACHER4U. I do hope you don't mind if I have a different idea as to your thoughts on the 24 elders. I read in Revelation 5:9 concerning the 24 elders and the 4 living ones or beasts that "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; I do not think they are Israel; Israel comes from the twelve tribes.

And then notice also the four living ones singing that same song of redemption. To me the elders represent those that have passed on to glory ahead of us, the four living ones are those caught up alive to meet them and the Lord in the air.

My thoughts and I don't care if anyone else doesn't like them. 
 

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 23:55:07

Quote from: Saul 25 on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 15:11:42

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 00:19:59

Quote from: Saul 25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 22:07:34

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

If there is a pre-trib rapture then quote it from the New Testament with chapter and verse.  There is a post-trib rapture; Matt 24:29 immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the powers of heaven be shaken and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with a trumpet sound and they shall gather His elect.

Ok! 

John 14:2-3
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 

Jesus is going to prepare a place for us that were He is we may also.

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

We shall all not die or sleep, but be changed. \

When?

I Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here it says at the last trump, the dead will be raised and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trumpet is the trumpet of God. The dead shall be raised and then we shall be changed and caught up together with them in the clouds.

2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is not the rapture. It a day and not an event.

:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Once again, this is about the day of Christ, that the son of perdiition must be revealed first.

2 Thess 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Do you know what is witholding the son of perdition?

2 Thess 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Something is taken out of the way before this can happen.

2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The trumpets that are blowed after this, are they blow by angels or God?

The scripture is clear that the trumpet of God is sounded before the dead is raised and we are caught up together with them to mee the Lord.

Grace to all.

I pointed out scripture that quoted Jesus as saying that He would return after the tribulation in the sky with angels and a trumpet and that He would gather the apostles(church fathers).  You did not present a single scripture that says that there is going to be a pre-trib rapture. Jesus said that He would return for the disciples after the tribulation, others wrote of the return of Christ to gather the disciples and you have CHOSEN to call that return a pre-trib return even though Jesus Himself said that it would be post-trib. 
   Again, there is no pre-trib rapture found in the New Testament, people have CHOSEN TO BELIEVE that it exists and then have placed the pre-trib rapture on other scriptures.  Satan came to Christ and offered Him the
crown without the cross, and Jesus refused.  Satan came to the contemporary church and have offered them the rapture without the tribulation, and the contemporary church has accepted the offer of satan.

Then you should read it again. The 24 elders represents the 12 tribs of Isreal and the 12 opostles. No where after Rev 4 is there a trumpet of God blown. The church is withholding the anit-christ from being revealed. Once the church is gone, then he will appear.

The rapture(the resurrection of the Just) is our Salvation. You must rightly divide the word of God. Is the scripture talking to the church, Jews or Gentiles. That's why there are various teachings, pre trib, mid trib and post trib.

The scriptures are full of proving that we are not going through the tribulations. Their will be people saved during the trib which is why people say that we will go through it. Their are a couple raptures during the tribulation. The mulitude, the two witnesses, the 144,000 and then towards the end the believers are killed for worshiping the beast and taking his number.

The church doesn't need to go through the tribulation, it is sent as a strong delusion for those that do not believe the truth. The scripture is also clear that we are waiting for Jesus to be revealed from heaven, not come down, but to be revealed. No where does it say we are waiting for the anti-Christ to show up.

True believers know this is true, the Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth, but false teachers will not hear the truth, but decieve other and being decieved.

Grace to all.

why isn't john one of the 24 elders?

if john represents the church (which i believe is true), then how can the 24 elders be the church if john is clearly a separate entity?

what about the many holy ones who were resurrected during the time of christs ascension and appeared to many in jerusalem?

the great sound of a trumpet is in rev 1 AND in matthew 24 which is at the start of the day of the lord and is after the tribulation of those days

Hi glen, and it's good to see you; seems you took off a few days.

glen - why isn't john one of the 24 elders? if john represents the church (which i believe is true), then how can the 24 elders be the church if john is clearly a separate entity?

larry2 - To start with John did not see himself there as he described others. John and the twelve kingdom apostles have a very different place of authority given them as we read in Matthew 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

glen - What about the many holy ones who were resurrected during the time of Christ's ascension and appeared to many in Jerusalem?

larry2 - We're not told where they will be. Notes I have indicate there is belief they may be of the wonder woman of Revelation Chapter Twelve. I'll just throw this small bit of a five hundred page transcription I'm working on given by Gene Hawkins. "The summation of this wonder woman that appears in heaven is that she represents all believers of the household of faith whether they are in heaven or on the earth. The household of faith is what they are called in Galatians 6:10. "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith," and Galatians 3:7 tells us, "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."

glen - The great sound of a trumpet is in Rev 1 AND in Matthew 24 which is at the start of the day of the lord and is after the tribulation of those days.

larry2 - The sound of a trumpet is not a trumpet, but the voice of Jesus in Revelation 1:10 as the voice of a trumpet.

The tribulation John was in was the suffering he endured on Patmos in Revelation 1:9. The Lord's day begins when Jesus sits upon His own throne in Revelation 4:2. There will be some with Him that will reign the full thousand years of His reign; the 24 elders and the 4 beasts or living ones as Ezekiel calls them. According to Revelation 5:9 they are redeemed. I will also add that it will take seven years for Jesus to put all things subject to Him as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Revelation 1:10 I John was in Spirit on the Lord's day; when was that? When Jesus is no longer walking among the candlesticks (Churches), is no longer in His Father's throne and has His own, and He has taken charge of all things. There will be nations ruling in usurpation until He puts them down in preparation for the peace of the millennium to begin.

Matthew Chapter twenty-four is describing the second half of the tribulation. When we see John arrive in Spirit at the Lord's day in Revelation 1:1 it is before the great tribulation even begins. John is going to be shown things which shortly come to pass from that day. We read in Revelation 1:19 the things he is to write; things he hast seen, things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. This is John's first viewpoint.

Revelation 4:1. A second viewpoint. John is now caught up or asked to come up hither. Where is that? Through that open door in heaven. Anyway I have five hundred pages of this I'm preparing for one lifer in prison which no one believes anyhow; oh the humanity of it.

God bless you brother. I plan on looking down on all those going through the tribulation and I hope to be passing out the judgments as Jesus opens the seals as one being in full agreement with Him. I'll look in amazement at the Lord's work still going on as those wonderful saints on earth endure unto the end.

Quote from: larry2 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 01:05:52

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 23:55:07

Then you should read it again. The 24 elders represents the 12 tribes of Isreal and the 12 apostles. No where after Rev 4 is there a trumpet of God blown. The church is withholding the anit-christ from being revealed. Once the church is gone, then he will appear.

The scriptures are full of proving that we are not going through the tribulations. Their will be people saved during the trib which is why people say that we will go through it. Their are a couple raptures during the tribulation. The mulitude, the two witnesses, the 144,000 and then towards the end the believers are killed for worshiping the beast and taking his number.

The church doesn't need to go through the tribulation, it is sent as a strong delusion for those that do not believe the truth. The scripture is also clear that we are waiting for Jesus to be revealed from heaven, not come down, but to be revealed. No where does it say we are waiting for the anti-Christ to show up.

Loved it NTPREACHER4U. I do hope you don't mind if I have a different idea as to your thoughts on the 24 elders. I read in Revelation 5:9 concerning the 24 elders and the 4 living ones or beasts that "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; I do not think they are Israel; Israel comes from the twelve tribes.

And then notice also the four living ones singing that same song of redemption. To me the elders represent those that have passed on to glory ahead of us, the four living ones are those caught up alive to meet them and the Lord in the air.

My thoughts and I don't care if anyone else doesn't like them. 
 

No problem.  But the bottom line is that church is not going through the tribualtion, but will caught up together with the dead in Christ then the anti Christ will appear. That's the hope of the gospel!   

The pre-trib rapture and many other false doctrines are produced from the bible by ignoring the literal in context presentation of the bible(truth) and wrestling particular concepts from the bible by personally placing the desired concept on scriptures that are literally(therefore truthfully)describing a different matter.  A perfect example is Revelation 4:1, the literal truth is that John was called up into Heaven to be given the Revelation of the future to be given to the church. Simple truth.  Now those who want to promote the false pre-trib rapture take this simple truth and make the outlandish claim that this scripture REALLY means that the church is being gathered by Christ. In other words,folks do not believe your lying eyes and mind that tell you that John was being called up into Heaven for a vision of the future but believe US when we TELL YOU that what that scripture really means is a description of the rapture of the church.
   Can people see that such a ridiculous approach to the bible or any other written instructions is a guarantee to miss the reality of the message?  The reality is that the New Testament does not contain a pre-trib rapture of the church, if that does not get in the way of your belief in a pre-trib rapture then by all means continue, however I will never subject myself to such a perverted approach to the word of God because the consequences are sure to be disastrous.

Quote from: Saul 25 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 08:27:17
The pre-trib rapture and many other false doctrines are produced from the bible by ignoring the literal in context presentation of the bible(truth)

You should be careful about what you call "false doctrine" and "unbiblical."  Just because you disagree with someone's POV does not make it "false" or "unbiblical."  It does not matter how ferverent you are in your beliefs or how much you have studied.  Differences in opinion are going to exist in some areas.  Discussing them is one thing, calling them false doctrines is another thing entirely.  It also violates forum rules.

Don't get me wrong, there are some very definitely false doctrines out there, but the timing of the rapture is more akin to the "disputable matters" Paul mentions in Romans 14.

bond

larry2 -  I have never come against you or anyone using such childish things as name calling or putting anyone down for their beliefs. What I said was many teachings (not the teacher) on a pretrib rapture are teachings of antichrist that blindsides many into believing whatever comes out of the pulpit is truth. If you or anyone else would have taken the time to read my whole class and the scriptures I gave to support my belief on this at my website: www.ourchurch.com/member/m/ministering and clicking on Second Coming you and everyone else could then understand why I believe the way I do.

One can believe however they want and I have no problem with that, but when certain teachings come against the word of God then that is when I have a problem with the so called money bandwagon big name preachers or teachers teaching such things as to monetarily line their own pockets. I have read many books on pretrib and a seven year tribulation when I first heard about it many years ago and also believed what I read and what I was taught from the pulpit as those who wrote such books were and are big named preachers, teachers and Evangelist. It wasn't until I got into reading all the scriptures they gave to support all of this and found those scriptures had nothing at all to do with what they were teaching as they twisted everything to support their belief.

Now here is my question. Why would there be a need for an Antichrist, mark of the beast or even a seven year great tribulation if we are raptured out of here before any of this begins. Seems to me after the rapture there would not be any Christians left here on earth for these events to have to happen as when Christ returns in the clouds and we meet him in the air the door of Salvation would now be closed as when we are taken up so is the Holy Spirit as Gods Spirit dwells within us and who would be left here on earth to witness of Christ to others as it is the Holy Spirit that works in us and through us to speak to others.

BTW - I have never asked anyone to agree with me or what I teach, but to take the scriptures I give and read them for yourself as it is only I alone that will stand in judgment before Christ to give account for what I taught while here on this earth.

Quote from: BondServant on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 11:40:56

Quote from: Saul 25 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 08:27:17
The pre-trib rapture and many other false doctrines are produced from the bible by ignoring the literal in context presentation of the bible(truth)

You should be careful about what you call "false doctrine" and "unbiblical."  Just because you disagree with someone's POV does not make it "false" or "unbiblical."  It does not matter how ferverent you are in your beliefs or how much you have studied.  Differences in opinion are going to exist in some areas.  Discussing them is one thing, calling them false doctrines is another thing entirely.  It also violates forum rules.

Don't get me wrong, there are some very definitely false doctrines out there, but the timing of the rapture is more akin to the "disputable matters" Paul mentions in Romans 14.

bond

Hi Bond: I was not aware that I could not call something that I have found in the bible to be false, a false doctrine, because others may believe that it is true. I hope you do realize that your statement reflects the attitude of the world, that we are ALL right in our beliefs and therefore it is intolerance and bigotry that causes one to call someones POV false.
   I presented an approach to the bible that allows one to produce a pre-trib rapture from a place in the bible that contains no pre-trib rapture, I suppose you are offended because you have chosen to believe in the pre-trib rapture.  If I had presented the same false approach that produced something that you believed to be false, then I suppose that you would agree with my point.  My point was of course, that placing personal meanings that are contrary to the literal bible where we chose to place them in the bible will certainly cause us to miss the actual meaning that God intended for us to get.

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 11:54:28
larry2 -  I have never come against you or anyone using such childish things as name calling or putting anyone down for their beliefs. What I said was many teachings (not the teacher) on a pretrib rapture are teachings of antichrist that blindsides many into believing whatever comes out of the pulpit is truth. If you or anyone else would have taken the time to read my whole class and the scriptures I gave to support my belief on this at my website: www.ourchurch.com/member/m/ministering and clicking on Second Coming you and everyone else could then understand why I believe the way I do.

One can believe however they want and I have no problem with that, but when certain teachings come against the word of God then that is when I have a problem with the so called money bandwagon big name preachers or teachers teaching such things as to monetarily line their own pockets. I have read many books on pretrib and a seven year tribulation when I first heard about it many years ago and also believed what I read and what I was taught from the pulpit as those who wrote such books were and are big named preachers, teachers and Evangelist. It wasn't until I got into reading all the scriptures they gave to support all of this and found those scriptures had nothing at all to do with what they were teaching as they twisted everything to support their belief.

Now here is my question. Why would there be a need for an Antichrist, mark of the beast or even a seven year great tribulation if we are raptured out of here before any of this begins. Seems to me after the rapture there would not be any Christians left here on earth for these events to have to happen as when Christ returns in the clouds and we meet him in the air the door of Salvation would now be closed as when we are taken up so is the Holy Spirit as Gods Spirit dwells within us and who would be left here on earth to witness of Christ to others as it is the Holy Spirit that works in us and through us to speak to others.

BTW - I have never asked anyone to agree with me or what I teach, but to take the scriptures I give and read them for yourself as it is only I alone that will stand in judgment before Christ to give account for what I taught while here on this earth.

Hi Debbie: Christians try to argue WHY there should be a pre-trib rapture,and they give many reasons but not any literal scriptures because there are none.  I believe in a post-trib rapture simply because Jesus said that he would return to gather the church after the tribulation and Paul confirmed what Jesus taught and Revelation has the church in Heaven after having gone through the great tribulation and after the signs of Christ return when the powers of heaven are shaken.  That is three places in the bible that literally tell us of a post-trib rapture of the church.  On the pre-trib side there is no scripture, just conjecture based on opinion.

Quote from: Saul 25 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 15:21:45
Hi Bond: I was not aware that I could not call something that I have found in the bible to be false, a false doctrine, because others may believe that it is true. I hope you do realize that your statement reflects the attitude of the world, that we are ALL right in our beliefs and therefore it is intolerance and bigotry that causes one to call someones POV false.

No, my statement comes from Scripture.  Read Romans 14

Quote from: Saul 25 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 15:21:45
   I presented an approach to the bible that allows one to produce a pre-trib rapture from a place in the bible that contains no pre-trib rapture, I suppose you are offended because you have chosen to believe in the pre-trib rapture. 

No, I am offended because you make false accusations.  My own personal belief is listed in this thread, it is not pre-trib. 

Quote from: Saul 25 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 15:21:45
If I had presented the same false approach that produced something that you believed to be false, then I suppose that you would agree with my point. 

Again, what you say is incorrect.  Check out the catholic forum, or as I just stated, read the first page of this thread.

Quote from: Saul 25 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 15:21:45
My point was of course, that placing personal meanings that are contrary to the literal bible where we chose to place them in the bible will certainly cause us to miss the actual meaning that God intended for us to get.

I have no idea what you said there.   I will say that different people see different scriptures in a different way.  Read Isaiah 55.  If you believe you have a perfect understanding of Scripture, then you believe that you have a full and complete understanding of God's thoughts.

I will not go back and forth with you.   You have come very close to violating the forum rules.  I aim to enforce them objectively, regardless of whether I agree with the POV.  I am not perfect, but I am sure many here will vouch that I do my best to be objective.  If you have an issue with my moderation or being called out, then you may PM admin and he will handle your situation.

bond

Saul, you seem to claim to have the only rightly divided understanding of all Revelation concerning pre-tribulation or post-tribulation rapture, and since you seem insistent on making an issue of it, do you mind me asking a question of you? Who are the four beasts, just when are they in heaven, and what will be their function? Please give scripture to support your opinions. Thanks.

Greetings all In Jesus Name

     I see the "battle rages on", concerning end time events.   This can all be easily diverted, and stopped completely, if one would learn to take the Lord for His Word.   One of the biggest mistakes made today concerning end time prophecy,   Is "drawing conclusions" based on Assumed truth.   This must be overcome, and  the word of God must be taken as the Lord has given it us, without any conjecture  of our own added.

    Most all of us has been "preprogrammed" over the years concerning end time events, based upon what we were taught concerning the end times in our early walk with the Lord.  We have accepted these "truths" as "gospel" simply because it was taught us at an early stage in our walk with the Lord.  Overcoming these "preconcieved truths" is difficult, if not impossable to overcome.  Although there may be scripture that refutes what we have embraced as " truth", it is easier to sweep it "under the rug, and brand those that disagree with you as a "heritic", misinformed, or simply Looney tunes.
 Discerning end time events, must be built on a firm foundation, otherwise, anything else built upon that foundation will be "off",  or  "twisted" and in the end, one ends up with a house that this "uninhabitable."  

  The problem is, most get comfortable building on a foundation that is not level,  but continue to build, not even realizing that you may be building to fit the foundation, but the foundation itself is not proper.


   So what is the proper foundation we should be building on?  How would you know what I have shared Here on these boards, any different than other "ideas" floating around out there?   The foundation must be the Word of God.  The pure Word of God.  A foundation  must be layed, totally free of any preconcieved ideas of what one MAY want scripture to say.  A foundation must be layed totally free from  the doctrines and traditions of Man, making the word of God of no effect.

  The "battle" I witness here is the direct result of many bringing their own preconcieved Ideas to lay the foundation.  It is not your fault you have done this, this is all you know.   because you percieve events of the end times  through your own personal foundation, you must make each and every scripture "fit" this foundation you have layed.

  It is our nature to oppose views that may refute what we have accepted as "truth", then to sincerely consider what another may be sharing.  Part of this has to do with How mature one is, in their walk with the Lord.   Another part of this has to do with fear.  Many have misplaced their faith in their doctrine, instead of our Lord Jesus Christ.  UNknowingly, many  feel to accept something other than what you have accepted as "true" up till now, is an attack on ones basic faith in the Lord.  UNfortunately, doing this "freezes" ones Growth in the Lord, unknowingly shuting out the Holy Spirit from revealing new deep truth to you, concerning end time events.

 OUr biggest enemy that is keeping us from discerning the Word of God IS OURSELVES, MYSELF INCLUDED.  Before we can even begin to build a "prophetic house" , we need to bring in the dozers and clear the landscape of all the Junk that would keep the Lord from establishing a firm foundation to build this house on.   The only question that needs to be anwered, is are you willing to do it? Are you willing to allow the Lord to buldoze the doctrines and traditions of man away, so the Lord can lay for you that firm foundation?   This is not an easy task to take on.   This is not a task that is a quick fix.   The Lord is willing to share with you the truth.   The question that truly needs to answered is, are you mature enough to accept it?      

Quote from: larry2 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 16:05:07

Saul, you seem to claim to have the only rightly divided understanding of all Revelation concerning pre-tribulation or post-tribulation rapture, and since you seem insistent on making an issue of it, do you mind me asking a question of you? Who are the four beasts, just when are they in heaven, and what will be their function? Please give scripture to support your opinions. Thanks.

Hi Larry: A lifetime of bible study has provided me with an understanding of what is LITERALLY in the bible, I usually stay away from opinions.  The literal bible does not tell us WHO the four beasts are, the bible simply tells us that they exist and that they surround the Throne of God.

Debbi - Now here is my question. Why would there be a need for an Antichrist, mark of the beast or even a seven year great tribulation if we are raptured out of here before any of this begins.

larry2 - Other than taking away the daily sacrifice thirty days prior to the tribulation, and then signing an agreement with many for a week, the antichrist will not be prominent upon the scene until the last three and one half years of the tribulation. The great multitude of Revelation Chapter Seven are saved and do come out of great tribulation. They are seen by John before the throne in heaven; how do they get there?

Dear Debbie, you make the following statements: "Seems to me after the rapture there would not be any Christians left here on earth for these events to have to happen as when Christ returns in the clouds and we meet him in the air the door of Salvation would now be closed. First of all you are not using scripture to come to this assumption, and I have no idea where in scripture you find where the Holy Spirit will ever be removed from the work He does, or that salvation will be closed to any. If you're thinking of the "He who letteth or hinders, that is Christians holding back the tide of evil before being taken out of the way. On top of all that there will be two witnesses upon the scene for three and one half years. Let's discuss these things before getting too deep into other points.

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 23:55:07

Quote from: Saul 25 on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 15:11:42

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 00:19:59

Quote from: Saul 25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 22:07:34

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

If there is a pre-trib rapture then quote it from the New Testament with chapter and verse.  There is a post-trib rapture; Matt 24:29 immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the powers of heaven be shaken and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with a trumpet sound and they shall gather His elect.

Ok! 

John 14:2-3
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 

Jesus is going to prepare a place for us that were He is we may also.

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

We shall all not die or sleep, but be changed. \

When?

I Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here it says at the last trump, the dead will be raised and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trumpet is the trumpet of God. The dead shall be raised and then we shall be changed and caught up together with them in the clouds.

2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is not the rapture. It a day and not an event.

:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Once again, this is about the day of Christ, that the son of perdiition must be revealed first.

2 Thess 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Do you know what is witholding the son of perdition?

2 Thess 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Something is taken out of the way before this can happen.

2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The trumpets that are blowed after this, are they blow by angels or God?

The scripture is clear that the trumpet of God is sounded before the dead is raised and we are caught up together with them to mee the Lord.

Grace to all.

I pointed out scripture that quoted Jesus as saying that He would return after the tribulation in the sky with angels and a trumpet and that He would gather the apostles(church fathers).  You did not present a single scripture that says that there is going to be a pre-trib rapture. Jesus said that He would return for the disciples after the tribulation, others wrote of the return of Christ to gather the disciples and you have CHOSEN to call that return a pre-trib return even though Jesus Himself said that it would be post-trib. 
   Again, there is no pre-trib rapture found in the New Testament, people have CHOSEN TO BELIEVE that it exists and then have placed the pre-trib rapture on other scriptures.  Satan came to Christ and offered Him the
crown without the cross, and Jesus refused.  Satan came to the contemporary church and have offered them the rapture without the tribulation, and the contemporary church has accepted the offer of satan.

Then you should read it again. The 24 elders represents the 12 tribs of Isreal and the 12 opostles. No where after Rev 4 is there a trumpet of God blown. The church is withholding the anit-christ from being revealed. Once the church is gone, then he will appear.

The rapture(the resurrection of the Just) is our Salvation. You must rightly divide the word of God. Is the scripture talking to the church, Jews or Gentiles. That's why there are various teachings, pre trib, mid trib and post trib.

The scriptures are full of proving that we are not going through the tribulations. Their will be people saved during the trib which is why people say that we will go through it. Their are a couple raptures during the tribulation. The mulitude, the two witnesses, the 144,000 and then towards the end the believers are killed for worshiping the beast and taking his number.

The church doesn't need to go through the tribulation, it is sent as a strong delusion for those that do not believe the truth. The scripture is also clear that we are waiting for Jesus to be revealed from heaven, not come down, but to be revealed. No where does it say we are waiting for the anti-Christ to show up.

True believers know this is true, the Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth, but false teachers will not hear the truth, but decieve other and being decieved.

Grace to all.

2Thess 2:2 Now about the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to meet Him(rapture). Don't be deceived that the day of the Lord has come, don't believe them! For that day will not come(day of Christ return) until TWO THINGS HAPPEN FIRST, there will be a time of great rebellion against God and then the man of rebellion will appear,the son of hell(antichrist).
  We see clearly from this that Paul taught that the advent of the antichrist would HAVE TO OCCUR BEFORE the time of Christ return.

Quote from: larry2 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 16:05:07

Saul, you seem to claim to have the only rightly divided understanding of all Revelation concerning pre-tribulation or post-tribulation rapture, and since you seem insistent on making an issue of it, do you mind me asking a question of you? Who are the four beasts, just when are they in heaven, and what will be their function? Please give scripture to support your opinions. Thanks.

Quote from: Saul 25 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 17:13:55

Hi Larry: A lifetime of bible study has provided me with an understanding of what is LITERALLY in the bible, I usually stay away from opinions.  The literal bible does not tell us WHO the four beasts are, the bible simply tells us that they exist and that they surround the Throne of God.

Thanks Saul, you have more than adequately shown me your knowledge of the Bible. No need of me asking further questions.

Quote from: Saul 25 on Fri Jun 11, 2010 - 17:27:58

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 23:55:07

Quote from: Saul 25 on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 15:11:42

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Thu Jun 10, 2010 - 00:19:59

Quote from: Saul 25 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 22:07:34

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 - 21:41:08

So because you don't agree with me you are teaching false teachings straight from antichrist (Satan)?

If there is a pre-trib rapture then quote it from the New Testament with chapter and verse.  There is a post-trib rapture; Matt 24:29 immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the powers of heaven be shaken and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he shall send His angels with a trumpet sound and they shall gather His elect.

Ok! 

John 14:2-3
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 

Jesus is going to prepare a place for us that were He is we may also.

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

We shall all not die or sleep, but be changed. \

When?

I Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here it says at the last trump, the dead will be raised and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trumpet is the trumpet of God. The dead shall be raised and then we shall be changed and caught up together with them in the clouds.

2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is not the rapture. It a day and not an event.

:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Once again, this is about the day of Christ, that the son of perdiition must be revealed first.

2 Thess 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Do you know what is witholding the son of perdition?

2 Thess 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Something is taken out of the way before this can happen.

2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The trumpets that are blowed after this, are they blow by angels or God?

The scripture is clear that the trumpet of God is sounded before the dead is raised and we are caught up together with them to mee the Lord.

Grace to all.

I pointed out scripture that quoted Jesus as saying that He would return after the tribulation in the sky with angels and a trumpet and that He would gather the apostles(church fathers).  You did not present a single scripture that says that there is going to be a pre-trib rapture. Jesus said that He would return for the disciples after the tribulation, others wrote of the return of Christ to gather the disciples and you have CHOSEN to call that return a pre-trib return even though Jesus Himself said that it would be post-trib. 
   Again, there is no pre-trib rapture found in the New Testament, people have CHOSEN TO BELIEVE that it exists and then have placed the pre-trib rapture on other scriptures.  Satan came to Christ and offered Him the
crown without the cross, and Jesus refused.  Satan came to the contemporary church and have offered them the rapture without the tribulation, and the contemporary church has accepted the offer of satan.

Then you should read it again. The 24 elders represents the 12 tribs of Isreal and the 12 opostles. No where after Rev 4 is there a trumpet of God blown. The church is withholding the anit-christ from being revealed. Once the church is gone, then he will appear.

The rapture(the resurrection of the Just) is our Salvation. You must rightly divide the word of God. Is the scripture talking to the church, Jews or Gentiles. That's why there are various teachings, pre trib, mid trib and post trib.

The scriptures are full of proving that we are not going through the tribulations. Their will be people saved during the trib which is why people say that we will go through it. Their are a couple raptures during the tribulation. The mulitude, the two witnesses, the 144,000 and then towards the end the believers are killed for worshiping the beast and taking his number.

The church doesn't need to go through the tribulation, it is sent as a strong delusion for those that do not believe the truth. The scripture is also clear that we are waiting for Jesus to be revealed from heaven, not come down, but to be revealed. No where does it say we are waiting for the anti-Christ to show up.

True believers know this is true, the Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth, but false teachers will not hear the truth, but decieve other and being decieved.

Grace to all.

2Thess 2:2 Now about the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to meet Him(rapture). Don't be deceived that the day of the Lord has come, don't believe them! For that day will not come(day of Christ return) until TWO THINGS HAPPEN FIRST, there will be a time of great rebellion against God and then the man of rebellion will appear,the son of hell(antichrist).
  We see clearly from this that Paul taught that the advent of the antichrist would HAVE TO OCCUR BEFORE the time of Christ return.

This is where Christians get things out of order. Yes two thing must happen before Christ returns to the earth. However the scripture is clear we are not waiting for the Lord to return to the earth. We are waiting for him to be revealed from heaven, this happens at the resurrection which is the rapture(our gathering together to him. The Lord promised us that we will see his glory, that were he is we will be also. He will recieve us unto himself. If returns to the earth as Rev 19 states with no resurrection or rapture, then Jesus lied to us. But Jesus has never lied and his promises are true.

Search the scriptures, are you waiting for the anti-Christ to appear to test and try you or are you waiting for Jesus to appear from heaven. We are not waiting for the Day of the Lord, but Jesus to be revealed from heaven. The trumpets in Rev after chapter 4 is of angels and not God. However in Chapter 4 there is referance to the Lord voice as a trumpet, that's the trumpet of God before the resurrection and the 24 elders are in heaven sitting on the thrones as Jesus promised us in the gospel and Paul said, we shall judge angels.

Grace to all.

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Sat Jun 12, 2010 - 00:05:38
The Lord promised us that we will see his glory, that were he is we will be also. He will recieve us unto himself. If returns to the earth as Rev 19 states with no resurrection or rapture, then Jesus lied to us.

Why is it that people always claim Jesus will be a liar if HE does not follow their own meager understanding of God's Word?

Bond

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Sat Jun 12, 2010 - 00:05:38

The Lord promised us that we will see his glory, that were he is we will be also. He will recieve us unto himself. If returns to the earth as Rev 19 states with no resurrection or rapture, then Jesus lied to us.

Quote from: BondServant on Sat Jun 12, 2010 - 06:41:31

Why is it that people always claim Jesus will be a liar if HE does not follow their own meager understanding of God's Word?

Bond

   I needed a good laugh this morning to get me going. Have a wonderful day preaching all the things I probably wouldn't agree with. Wait a minute, you do preach Jesus is Lord don't you? Aw well, we'll get along. 

  For some people, John being called up to Heaven by a voice that sounded like a trumpet, as compared to Jesus gathering the saints with a trumpet blast, is evidence enough to believe that they are describing the same thing.  The problem with that kind of thinking is that it totally disregards CONTEXT and context is what actually determines what is being described. In the context of the rapture, Christ returns in the sky with angels and gathers the living saints off the earth to "ever be with the Lord", also at that instant the bodies of the saints are changed. In the context of Rev 4:1 John is caught up to Heaven to receive a revelation of the future and his body is not changed and he returns to earth to give his revelation to the churches.  So the rapture of the church is an entirely DIFFERENT event than John being caught up to heaven to receive a revelation...according to context.  I am simply trying to encourage christians to approach the bible with integrity.  After all we are trying to understand what God is telling us so we need to be truthful with context at all times.