Christian Forums

Quote from: BondServant on Sat Jun 12, 2010 - 06:41:31

Quote from: NTPREACHER4U on Sat Jun 12, 2010 - 00:05:38
The Lord promised us that we will see his glory, that were he is we will be also. He will recieve us unto himself. If returns to the earth as Rev 19 states with no resurrection or rapture, then Jesus lied to us.

Why is it that people always claim Jesus will be a liar if HE does not follow their own meager understanding of God's Word?

Bond

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Matt 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus is speaking to his discplies(his followers) It if very clear that we will be sitting on thrones judge the 12 tribes and angels.

1 Cor 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Cor 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

These are promises in the scripture that has not happen yet? And not one scripture will fail. As you can see, this is not my teaching, but the Lord's and this is the faith.

Grace to all.

Larry2 once again, I have proven myself through scripture and if you or anyone else would have taken the time to read my web class on this you would have had all your questions you have asked me answered. As of yet though I sit patiently and wait for your scriptures that support a pre-trib rapture and have to question why you have not given any.

End time discussions can be a good place for Satan to sneak in and cause great division which causes arguing and fighting and debating between the brethren, but I just want you and everyone else to know I hold no animosity against any of you that do not agree with me as I do not hold myself higher than anyone else I teach.

We must never lose sight of what is more important and that is the love we always need to have for one another even if we at times disagree with each other. We simply need to support ourselves with scripture so each of us can read what the other one presents to us and draw our own conclusions as to what is being taught.

Pre-trib, post-trib, no trib has no bearing on the fact that Jesus will return in the clouds for His bride and the important thing is how are we being pleasing to Him before His return.

Walking in much love for all of you, God bless.

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 - 14:35:27

Pre-trib, post-trib, no trib has no bearing on the fact that Jesus will return in the clouds for His bride and the important thing is how are we being pleasing to Him before His return.

Dear Sister Debbie, I can finally agree with you here.

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 - 14:35:27
Larry2 once again, I have proven myself through scripture and if you or anyone else would have taken the time to read my web class on this you would have had all your questions you have asked me answered. As of yet though I sit patiently and wait for your scriptures that support a pre-trib rapture and have to question why you have not given any.

End time discussions can be a good place for Satan to sneak in and cause great division which causes arguing and fighting and debating between the brethren, but I just want you and everyone else to know I hold no animosity against any of you that do not agree with me as I do not hold myself higher than anyone else I teach.

We must never lose sight of what is more important and that is the love we always need to have for one another even if we at times disagree with each other. We simply need to support ourselves with scripture so each of us can read what the other one presents to us and draw our own conclusions as to what is being taught.

Pre-trib, post-trib, no trib has no bearing on the fact that Jesus will return in the clouds for His bride and the important thing is how are we being pleasing to Him before His return.

Walking in much love for all of you, God bless.

I disagree. We are not wandering around in darkness. He have the Holy Spirit of God to teach us, to led us into al truth. We hear his voice and a voice of stranger)false teachers) we will not hear).

As I stated earlier, search the scriptures and see what it says. Does say we are waiting for Christ to be revealed or the antiChrist. The antiChrist will appear before Jesus returns to the earth. A trumpet of God will sound before the resurrection and our gathering unto the Lord. The trumpet of God is sounded in Rev 4 and John heard him say, Come up hither. After that, the  trumpets are sounded by angels.

And here is a gem, who is the Army that is with Jesus when he returns in Rev 19th. I will give you a hint, we called soldiers and to endure harship and not to be entangled with the affairs of this life.

Angels are God's servant and are ministers to those that are called to eternal life.

Grace to all.

As someone has rightly stated,all doctrine has a spirit behind it, the true word of God has the Holy Spirit of God backing it up, and a false doctrine has a demonic spirit of some kind backing it up.  I do not mean to offend anyone but there is not any doubt at all in my mind that the pre-trib rapture has a demonic spirit that has an influence over those who have chosen to believe this doctrine.  What other explanation could there be, Jesus Himself in two gospel accounts is quoted as telling the apostles that He would return for them in the sky with a trumpet blast and angles AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Yet in spite of this kind of evidence people say that Jesus description was not for the church and they offer nothing that Jesus or any of the New Testament writers said that would back up that idea...so why do christians believe it?
    If the pre-trib rapture is false then millions of christians will be devastated when Jesus does not return as expected.  On the other hand if the post-trib rapture was false then it would be a plus not a minus.

Quote from: Saul 25 on Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 20:11:29
As someone has rightly stated,all doctrine has a spirit behind it, the true word of God has the Holy Spirit of God backing it up, and a false doctrine has a demonic spirit of some kind backing it up.  I do not mean to offend anyone but there is not any doubt at all in my mind that the pre-trib rapture has a demonic spirit that has an influence over those who have chosen to believe this doctrine.  What other explanation could there be, Jesus Himself in two gospel accounts is quoted as telling the apostles that He would return for them in the sky with a trumpet blast and angles AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Yet in spite of this kind of evidence people say that Jesus description was not for the church and they offer nothing that Jesus or any of the New Testament writers said that would back up that idea...so why do christians believe it?
    If the pre-trib rapture is false then millions of christians will be devastated when Jesus does not return as expected.  On the other hand if the post-trib rapture was false then it would be a plus not a minus.

How amazing that you would come to that conclusion! I believe just the opposite!

You see, there is actually and literally NO PROOF that Jesus was talking about the rapture of the church in those scriptures. NO proof whatsoever. You have added meaning by reading with preconceived glasses.

I 1 Thes 4:17, there can be NO DOUBT Paul is talking about the rapture of the church. SAme with chapter five, save with 2 Thes. 2. But again, most people read these with preconceived glasses.

One thing we can all agree on: if these verses were as clear as salvation scriptures, we would all or most of us be in agreement. But it is a simple fact, it is NOT real clear. But with study, the truth can be found. There are simple verses telling us that we have no appoinment with wrath. And that we can escape what is coming. There are simple verses telling us that we are to be looking for His coming, NOT looking for the Beast.

So what happens? Why do some ignore these verses, and put far more weight on ambiguous scriptures?

If John's chronology is really and truly understood, pretrib is CLEARLY seen in Revelation. I hope we will have a chance to get into so good study on these scriptures.

Hi all! I am new here. You will have already guessed that I am pretrib and prewrath. But I disagree with many points of classical pretrib, because in some cases they have used very sloppy exegesis. Case in point: Revelation 4:1 is NOT the rapture of the church. That is sloppy exegesis, and all prewrathers and post tribbers know it is. If we took 100 begining readers and had them read and then tell us what John was saying, NONE would call it the rapture. That would take preconceived glasses, which not beginning reader would be wearing.

I also disagree with most of prewrath, for they must rearrange most of the book of Revelation.

Coop

Quote from: lecoop on Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 21:12:17

Quote from: Saul 25 on Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 20:11:29
As someone has rightly stated,all doctrine has a spirit behind it, the true word of God has the Holy Spirit of God backing it up, and a false doctrine has a demonic spirit of some kind backing it up.  I do not mean to offend anyone but there is not any doubt at all in my mind that the pre-trib rapture has a demonic spirit that has an influence over those who have chosen to believe this doctrine.  What other explanation could there be, Jesus Himself in two gospel accounts is quoted as telling the apostles that He would return for them in the sky with a trumpet blast and angles AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Yet in spite of this kind of evidence people say that Jesus description was not for the church and they offer nothing that Jesus or any of the New Testament writers said that would back up that idea...so why do christians believe it?
    If the pre-trib rapture is false then millions of christians will be devastated when Jesus does not return as expected.  On the other hand if the post-trib rapture was false then it would be a plus not a minus.

How amazing that you would come to that conclusion! I believe just the opposite!

You see, there is actually and literally NO PROOF that Jesus was talking about the rapture of the church in those scriptures. NO proof whatsoever. You have added meaning by reading with preconceived glasses.

I 1 Thes 4:17, there can be NO DOUBT Paul is talking about the rapture of the church. SAme with chapter five, save with 2 Thes. 2. But again, most people read these with preconceived glasses.

One thing we can all agree on: if these verses were as clear as salvation scriptures, we would all or most of us be in agreement. But it is a simple fact, it is NOT real clear. But with study, the truth can be found. There are simple verses telling us that we have no appoinment with wrath. And that we can escape what is coming. There are simple verses telling us that we are to be looking for His coming, NOT looking for the Beast.

So what happens? Why do some ignore these verses, and put far more weight on ambiguous scriptures?

If John's chronology is really and truly understood, pretrib is CLEARLY seen in Revelation. I hope we will have a chance to get into so good study on these scriptures.

Hi all! I am new here. You will have already guessed that I am pretrib and prewrath. But I disagree with many points of classical pretrib, because in some cases they have used very sloppy exegesis. Case in point: Revelation 4:1 is NOT the rapture of the church. That is sloppy exegesis, and all prewrathers and post tribbers know it is. If we took 100 begining readers and had them read and then tell us what John was saying, NONE would call it the rapture. That would take preconceived glasses, which not beginning reader would be wearing.

I also disagree with most of prewrath, for they must rearrange most of the book of Revelation.

Coop

You said that there was no proof that Jesus was describing the rapture of the church, I think that there is proof.  Jesus made His message very personal to the apostles by making it clear that His return was for them, then later He told those same apostles to teach that doctrine to the church.  That is proof to me.  On the other had there really is no  proof that Jesus was describing a rapture for national Israel.  Besides that,Paul described the exact return that Jesus gave the church through the apostles, Christ return in the sky,with angels and a trumpet and the believers being gathered. The pre-trib idea was invented as a way of escape from the persecution of the tribulation. 

Quote from: Saul 25 on Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 21:27:56

Quote from: lecoop on Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 21:12:17

How amazing that you would come to that conclusion! I believe just the opposite!

You see, there is actually and literally NO PROOF that Jesus was talking about the rapture of the church in those scriptures. NO proof whatsoever. You have added meaning by reading with preconceived glasses.

I 1 Thes 4:17, there can be NO DOUBT Paul is talking about the rapture of the church. SAme with chapter five, save with 2 Thes. 2. But again, most people read these with preconceived glasses.

One thing we can all agree on: if these verses were as clear as salvation scriptures, we would all or most of us be in agreement. But it is a simple fact, it is NOT real clear. But with study, the truth can be found. There are simple verses telling us that we have no appoinment with wrath. And that we can escape what is coming. There are simple verses telling us that we are to be looking for His coming, NOT looking for the Beast.

So what happens? Why do some ignore these verses, and put far more weight on ambiguous scriptures?

If John's chronology is really and truly understood, pretrib is CLEARLY seen in Revelation. I hope we will have a chance to get into so good study on these scriptures.

Hi all! I am new here. You will have already guessed that I am pretrib and prewrath. But I disagree with many points of classical pretrib, because in some cases they have used very sloppy exegesis. Case in point: Revelation 4:1 is NOT the rapture of the church. That is sloppy exegesis, and all prewrathers and post tribbers know it is. If we took 100 begining readers and had them read and then tell us what John was saying, NONE would call it the rapture. That would take preconceived glasses, which not beginning reader would be wearing.

I also disagree with most of prewrath, for they must rearrange most of the book of Revelation.

Coop

You said that there was no proof that Jesus was describing the rapture of the church, I think that there is proof.  Jesus made His message very personal to the apostles by making it clear that His return was for them, then later He told those same apostles to teach that doctrine to the church.  That is proof to me.  On the other had there really is no  proof that Jesus was describing a rapture for national Israel.  Besides that,Paul described the exact return that Jesus gave the church through the apostles, Christ return in the sky,with angels and a trumpet and the believers being gathered. The pre-trib idea was invented as a way of escape from the persecution of the tribulation. 

So many want to insert the church into the Olivet discourse. But if Jesus was answering their questions, it would be for the end of the JEWISH age, not the church age. The church was still in the future when Jesus gave this discourse.

When He mentions the gathering, by angels, SO MANY want to associate this with the rapture; yet there is NO proof. In fact, it cannot be. We will NOT NEED angels to "gather" us, for we will be as they, with the ability to FLY. Next, Paul does not mention angels at all in his rapture verses.  Indeed, when we compare much of the Olivet Discourse with Revelation we see that Jeusus was speaking of His coming on the white horse, as shown in Revelation 19. This is where EVERY EYE will see Him. But, He will come about seven years before this, where ONLY THE CHURCH will see Him.

Therefore I must disagree with you.

Coop

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Who is gathered first?


Mt 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil [one];
Mt 13:39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
Mt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
Mt 13:42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.


Mt 13:49 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous,
Mt 13:50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:51 Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea.

Quote from: BroBrent on Mon Jun 14, 2010 - 23:58:49
Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Who is gathered first?


Mt 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil [one];
Mt 13:39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
Mt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
Mt 13:42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.


Mt 13:49 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous,
Mt 13:50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Mt 13:51 Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea.

Oh yes, the famous scriptures false teachers use to teach that the church will stay through the tribulation. The diciplies asked what was the sign of his returning to the earth, all these events are taken place during the Great Tribulation when the anti-Christ is revealed.

And in the book of Rev there are people that are seen in heaven, the mulitude, the 144,000, the two witnesses. The tares are taken out of the way when Christ returns with the church to excute judgement on those that refuse to believe the truth and have taken the mark of the beast.

The church is not waiting for the day of the Lord. We are waiting for the resurrection when Jesus will be revealed together us together with the dead in Christ.

Grace to all.

Alright, I am locking this thread.  Each of you have violated the rules of this forum.

Calling somebody a false teacher or claiming their doctrine is of Satan not only violates the rules of this forum, it is the top form of spiritual abuse.

I would encourage each of you to swallow your pride.  Humbly go before our Father and ask him to show you the proper way to discuss your beliefs.

Bond