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Some thoughts here on departure from God's intent for the church.  Here is a paper one has sent on some history dividing the expression of "one body in Christ".
  -Seriousseeker


THE  HERESY  OF  SECTARIANISM
A LOOK AT MAN'S CORRUPTION OF GOD'S TESTIMONY                 

   A Christian gathering is sectarian when it forms separately and independently from the universal church, or gathers with such others thus after the ideas of man, and divides God's work of unity rather than following  the clear Word of God;  and may establish creeds or doctrines or practices and activities, or takes a name (denominating), thereby excluding other faithful believers in Christ who desire to walk clear of the world and keep God's Word.  They may also follow a man rather than the Holy Spirit.  Sects serve special interests, which is heresy, and divides the testimony of God in the world.  God clearly hates a sectarian spirit. 

   The church is "one body" (I Cor.12:12-25), and we ought to work to express that in the world in accord with the Word of God (John 17:11, 21-22; Acts 2:42; I Cor.1:9-10; II Cor. 1:1; Gal.3:28; Eph.4:4-6, 14-16; Phil.2:2).  This is not speaking about mergers, but unity in the truth.  Faithful Christians should only be believers gathered to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ alone, with all that everywhere call on His Name in truth and godliness (see I Cor.1:2, & verses 12-13).  One should know the history of the gathering they are in.

   There are at least eight things that describe a scriptural assembly:
1.  Gathering to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ alone (Matt.18:20), not to popular personalities, which usurp the Lord, and to sectarian systems---limiting other believers who want to hold to the Word of God. 

2.  Receiving "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27), "rightly dividing the Word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15), not traditions, entertainment, creeds, rituals, and pledges; programs, religious ideas, emotional experiences, and unscriptural things which are for the flesh. 
   
3.  Expressing the oneness of the body of Christ in the world (Rom.12:5; I Cor.12:25), not independency, nor mergers and unions, organizational systems, etc., which is the deceit of Satan to divide the saints and compromise the truth. 

4.  Acknowledging the priesthood of believers (I Pet.2:5,9), not titles, offices, hierarchy, dominion over the saints with selected ministers to lead, preach, and manage ("nicolaitanism", Rev.2:6), etc., which denies liberty. 

5.  Trusting the Lord and His Word as the only way--authority and path for the Christian faith, rather than man's preferences or reasonings, which will lead one astray.

6.   Worshipping collectively as is pleasing and obedient to God, rather than innovations for the flesh, which is pride and entertainment.

7.  Appreciating the assembly and maintaining God's order and government, rather than the ideas and governmental ways of men, which is unprofitable.

8.  Yielding to the leading of the Holy Spirit as in the early church (II Cor.3:17), not to ceremonies, schedules, plans, traditions, arrangements quenching the Spirit (I Thess. 5:19), which dishonors God.

   Man-made systems may have some or all of the following:
1.   A paid or volunteer preacher or minister to act as kind of a priest, like the religion of Israel, and thereafter like the Roman Catholic Religion, rather than the exercise of the "priesthood" of believers (I Pet.2).  No appointed leader is given for the church.  Pastors, teachers, evangelists, and elders (in the plural) are gifts, not titles and appointments by men.

2.  Ordination of men to an office in accord with rules, doctrines, and approval of governing authorities, rather than the gift and calling of God to service.

3.  Choirs or musical bands to entertain the congregation, rather than "the fruit of our lips", which is praise to God.

4.  Organized programs and activities to occupy the saints, rather than an individual exercise to serve the Lord, and a quiet waiting on the Holy Spirit to lead.

5.  Social and political causes to be like the world, and try to influence civil affairs and leaders, which is carnal.
                                                     
6.  Emphasis on preaching, rather than on collective Bible study and true worship (Acts 2:42).

7.  Independent fellowship apart from God's truth of the "one body in Christ", and not receiving the truth of the Word.

8.  Loyalty to charismatic leaders who have rejected God's true testimony, go off independently, and gather a following after religious ideas.  This has been happening down through the years and continues today.

A  REMNANT  WITHIN  A  REMNANT
   There are precious saints of God everywhere, and some of these appreciate fundamentals of the faith in a limited way, but some others value and are endeavoring to hold "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20: 27), are acting on the truth of it, and value submission to the Lord.  Is that our objective?  "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17).

   One should study the history.  In the early 1800's God revived church truth, which had been lost in the sectarian systems of man after the apostles departed.  A few have appreciated and continued that recovery of the testimony in unity worldwide.  One can learn of this matter in other papers.   - RLD, 6/02; rev. 8/08 

This was a pretty good article and spoke many truths. Unfortunately, the obvious answer to the sin of sectarianism is to turn away from this spirit, which in turn will demand an abandonment of all sects/denominations as well as the current form of 'church service'. I say unfortunately because a great many people will be, and are, unwilling to accept this truth.

Yes, I know that many are unwilling to accept this truth, and that has been a problem down through the ages.  We really need to get back to the unity God intended as in Acts 2 and the Epistles.  Some of us are working at it.

- Seriousseeker
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Quote from: Seriousseeker on Mon May 03, 2010 - 14:57:23
Some thoughts here on departure from God's intent for the church.  Here is a paper one has sent on some history dividing the expression of "one body in Christ".
 -Seriousseeker


THE  HERESY  OF  SECTARIANISM
A LOOK AT MAN'S CORRUPTION OF GOD'S TESTIMONY                

  A Christian gathering is sectarian when it forms separately and independently from the universal church, or gathers with such others thus after the ideas of man, and divides God's work of unity rather than following  the clear Word of God;  and may establish creeds or doctrines or practices and activities, or takes a name (denominating), thereby excluding other faithful believers in Christ who desire to walk clear of the world and keep God's Word.  They may also follow a man rather than the Holy Spirit.  Sects serve special interests, which is heresy, and divides the testimony of God in the world.  God clearly hates a sectarian spirit.  

  The church is "one body" (I Cor.12:12-25), and we ought to work to express that in the world in accord with the Word of God (John 17:11, 21-22; Acts 2:42; I Cor.1:9-10; II Cor. 1:1; Gal.3:28; Eph.4:4-6, 14-16; Phil.2:2).  This is not speaking about mergers, but unity in the truth.  Faithful Christians should only be believers gathered to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ alone, with all that everywhere call on His Name in truth and godliness (see I Cor.1:2, & verses 12-13).  One should know the history of the gathering they are in.

  There are at least eight things that describe a scriptural assembly:
1.  Gathering to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ alone (Matt.18:20), not to popular personalities, which usurp the Lord, and to sectarian systems---limiting other believers who want to hold to the Word of God.  

2.  Receiving "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27), "rightly dividing the Word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15), not traditions, entertainment, creeds, rituals, and pledges; programs, religious ideas, emotional experiences, and unscriptural things which are for the flesh.  
   
3.  Expressing the oneness of the body of Christ in the world (Rom.12:5; I Cor.12:25), not independency, nor mergers and unions, organizational systems, etc., which is the deceit of Satan to divide the saints and compromise the truth.  

4.  Acknowledging the priesthood of believers (I Pet.2:5,9), not titles, offices, hierarchy, dominion over the saints with selected ministers to lead, preach, and manage ("nicolaitanism", Rev.2:6), etc., which denies liberty.  

5.  Trusting the Lord and His Word as the only way--authority and path for the Christian faith, rather than man's preferences or reasonings, which will lead one astray.

6.   Worshipping collectively as is pleasing and obedient to God, rather than innovations for the flesh, which is pride and entertainment.

7.  Appreciating the assembly and maintaining God's order and government, rather than the ideas and governmental ways of men, which is unprofitable.

8.  Yielding to the leading of the Holy Spirit as in the early church (II Cor.3:17), not to ceremonies, schedules, plans, traditions, arrangements quenching the Spirit (I Thess. 5:19), which dishonors God.

  Man-made systems may have some or all of the following:
1.   A paid or volunteer preacher or minister to act as kind of a priest, like the religion of Israel, and thereafter like the Roman Catholic Religion, rather than the exercise of the "priesthood" of believers (I Pet.2).  No appointed leader is given for the church.  Pastors, teachers, evangelists, and elders (in the plural) are gifts, not titles and appointments by men.

2.  Ordination of men to an office in accord with rules, doctrines, and approval of governing authorities, rather than the gift and calling of God to service.

3.  Choirs or musical bands to entertain the congregation, rather than "the fruit of our lips", which is praise to God.

4.  Organized programs and activities to occupy the saints, rather than an individual exercise to serve the Lord, and a quiet waiting on the Holy Spirit to lead.

5.  Social and political causes to be like the world, and try to influence civil affairs and leaders, which is carnal.
                                                   
6.  Emphasis on preaching, rather than on collective Bible study and true worship (Acts 2:42).

7.  Independent fellowship apart from God's truth of the "one body in Christ", and not receiving the truth of the Word.

8.  Loyalty to charismatic leaders who have rejected God's true testimony, go off independently, and gather a following after religious ideas.  This has been happening down through the years and continues today.

A  REMNANT  WITHIN  A  REMNANT
  There are precious saints of God everywhere, and some of these appreciate fundamentals of the faith in a limited way, but some others value and are endeavoring to hold "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20: 27), are acting on the truth of it, and value submission to the Lord.  Is that our objective?  "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17).

  One should study the history.  In the early 1800's God revived church truth, which had been lost in the sectarian systems of man after the apostles departed.  A few have appreciated and continued that recovery of the testimony in unity worldwide.  One can learn of this matter in other papers.   - RLD, 6/02; rev. 8/08  

There is nothing  wrong with the bibles passages ...

The problem here is with  the person presenting the
bible passages .
he or she fails to understand that only God see the heart .

and only GOD  has the right to say who  his true body of believers are or not.
only  God truly knows and has the right to unite .

This person wants to unite BY OUT WARD appearances  .


but God unites his invisable church  by " inward apperances."

God does not need to look at denomination or if a person is non denominational  or their race or social standing.


God  KNOWS  ones heart .

He already  knows the  person who trusts in His Son  Jesus  merits alone . no matter what denomination or race or social standing they belong to.

I had thought to let your response go, ex cathedra, but on review I feel it important to say you have misinterpreted what the paper said.  Please read it prayerfully again.

I think most readers understand the truth of this, but you said the writer "wants to unite by outward appearances", and "God knows the heart" of each person.  Yes, God knows the heart of everyone, but also "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). It will always seek to do what pleases the flesh, so it must be judged, and the Word obeyed.  You charge the author with wanting to unite by appearances, but following the Word of God is not "outward appearances".  Please re-consider this before the Lord.

- Seriousseeker

In terms of sectarianism much depends on what is done with the writings that man has tried to add to the Scriptures.
All too often they are used to underpin and to sustain man's attempts to build Babylonic spiritual towers reaching up to heaven.
And as in Genisis 11 God thwarts their folly by confusing them (this time) with multiple versions of "Thus saith the (extended) Word of God

   Really good Post,Dio. You have clearly expressed what I have long tried to say.
   GOD bless.

walker starr,

It takes years of 'treading the boards' for the truth to dawn.
I'm 7 years behind you at 75.

But we shall not be moved.

Dio.

Howdy Seriousseeker,
I am in agreement with your thoughts on Sectarianism. This reminds me of brother A.P.Gibb's message on the Scriptural Principles of Gathering. Gathering to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ alone recognizing everyone who has trusted in Christ for salvation as being my brother and sister has been my privilege for the past 15 years.May the Lord bless your efforts in sharing His truth.

Quote from: Seriousseeker on Mon May 03, 2010 - 14:57:23
Some thoughts here on departure from God's intent for the church.  Here is a paper one has sent on some history dividing the expression of "one body in Christ".
 -Seriousseeker

I disagree with nearly everything in this paper.  I hope that's okay....  I know nothing of this author; if he is revered in some circles, no disrespect is implied.

QuoteTHE  HERESY  OF  SECTARIANISM
A LOOK AT MAN'S CORRUPTION OF GOD'S TESTIMONY                

  A Christian gathering is sectarian when it forms separately and independently from the universal church, or gathers with such others thus after the ideas of man, and divides God's work of unity rather than following  the clear Word of God;  and may establish creeds or doctrines or practices and activities, or takes a name (denominating), thereby excluding other faithful believers in Christ who desire to walk clear of the world and keep God's Word.  They may also follow a man rather than the Holy Spirit.  Sects serve special interests, which is heresy, and divides the testimony of God in the world.  God clearly hates a sectarian spirit.  

1.  The church IS one - always has been, still is, always will be.  It is one, holy and catholic.  It is, as the ancient Creed puts it, "the communion of saints."  But I disagree that ERGO, it is wrong to associate with fellow Christians (congregations) or for congregations to associate with each other (denominations).  IMHO, community, cooperation, fellowship, support, mutual edification and accountability are GOOD things - I would defend such, not rebuke it.

2.  A disagreement I have thoughout this article is that it is entirely lopsided.  YES - we are to be united in faith and perhaps also in doctrine and in ministry (I'm not SO sure about those).  The Scriptures referenced here are all good and right.  But lost are all the Scriptures about coming together, about authority beyond self, about accountability, and most of all about holding to what is true, not tolerating false teaching, putting the heretic outside of us.  All that is simply ignored.  LIKE SO MANY THINGS in Christianity (and often in life), there's a tension, a balance here.   The word "heresy" comes from a word meaning "half TRUTH" - in other words, it tells HALF of the story while ignoring "the rest of the story" (apologies to whatshisname on the radio).  I agree - finding the balance has NEVER been easy or simple.  Some are rather ecumenical, rather willing to leave things as "mystery" (to use the historic understanding - altogether different than the modern Protestant idea of relativism/minimalism/"who knows and who cares"), less willing to "pin everything down."  It's PART of my reason for leaving the RCC.  On the other hand, some draw the circle rather small, insisting on close agreements in faith and in practice.   BOTH approaches quote their fave Scriptures in doing so.

Another point:  While OUR ASSOCIATIONS certainly have the "right" to draw whatever "membership" rules each wants (they are free associations), it's another thing to argue that such isn't just what's required to officially JOIN their institution (or be a clergy in such), but rather that such is what is required to be a CHRISTIAN.   A larger mistake is make when institutional requirements are confused with Christian requirements.  It's very specific what is required to be an ordained clergymen in The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, but NO ONE would wildly suggest that those who don't have those attributes or doctrines are thus not Christians or not a member of the Church of Christ - the one, holy and catholic "communion of saints."  Two very different issues.  It's one thing to meet the requirements of being a US citizen, it's another for being a human being.  Sad how these CAN be confused.

QuoteThe church is "one body" (I Cor.12:12-25), and we ought to work to express that in the world in accord with the Word of God (John 17:11, 21-22; Acts 2:42; I Cor.1:9-10; II Cor. 1:1; Gal.3:28; Eph.4:4-6, 14-16; Phil.2:2).  This is not speaking about mergers, but unity in the truth.

1.  Okay....  But again, we are also to beware of false teachers, we are to hold to the Truth, we are to put out the one teaching wrongly...

2.  Yes, but who  decides and how is it decided what is the "Truth of the Word of God?"   Most of the heresies you are likely to condemn as wrong were promoted by those who insisted they were the "Truth of the Word of God."   I sense this author is a typical, modern, Protestant relativist.  "Truth is whatever YOU think it is."  Each one is his own pope, his own interpreter, his own arbiter, each one infallible/unaccountable.  I left Catholicism in large part because of that view.  Sadly, in MY humble personal opinion, some have taken things full circle - right back to Catholicism (only making it PERSONAL rather than collective - each his OWN pope, a worse situation, IMHO).   Having two billion sects (each Christian their own authority, own interpreter, own arbiter) does NOTHING to help the issue of sectarianism.  

Quote2.  Receiving "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27), "rightly dividing the Word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15), not traditions, entertainment, creeds, rituals, and pledges; programs, religious ideas, emotional experiences, and unscriptural things which are for the flesh.  

AGAIN, who and how is this "rightly dividing the Word of God" done?  Are we to dismiss the historic, ecumenical, consensus of God's people (Tradition), if so - then you need to dismiss the canon of Scripture, the Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ and much more - including the very biblical books you are looking to (tradition declared it to be Scripture!).  So, without an agreed upon list of books, without any agreed upon hermeneutic, with every 2.2 billion Christians now each his/her own infallible/unaccountable Pope re-inventing everything anew every Sunday - that's going to reduce sectarianism???  Wait, worshiping on Sunday - that's tradition, so you'll have some worshipping on Monday, some Tuesday, some Wednesday, some Thursday, some Friday, some on Saturday, some never.  

Religious ideas are "of the flesh?"   So, worship, Baptism, prayer - all these religious ideas - are of the flesh? It's wrong to dedicate ourselves to Christ?  It's wrong to say "Jesus is Lord?"  I disagree with MUCH in this article.

   

Quote4.  Acknowledging the priesthood of believers (I Pet.2:5,9), not titles, offices, hierarchy, dominion over the saints with selected ministers to lead, preach, and manage ("nicolaitanism", Rev.2:6), etc., which denies liberty.  

1.  I wonder about all those verses about submitting to those with authority over us...

2.  I wonder about all the officies that Scripture mentions:  pastor, bishop, deacon, elder.....

3.  Does "liberty" mean, "Everyone just appoints himself/herself as his/her own infallible/unaccountable Pope?   Each appoints himself/herself as the infallible/unaccountable/sole interpreter of Scripture - and arbiter for whether self is correct?  Is "liberty" just another word for "anything goes?"

Quote6.   Worshipping collectively as is pleasing and obedient to God, rather than innovations for the flesh, which is pride and entertainment.

Those "innovations" include worshiping especially on Sunday, having an order of service (whatever it might be in your congregation), having a congregation, the hymns you sing, having a hymnal and perhaps a bulletin, even having church buildings, electricity, organs - a LOT of "innovations" you probably have in your church that have no explicit Biblical command, what is call "innovations of the flesh."

Quote8.  Yielding to the leading of the Holy Spirit as in the early church (II Cor.3:17), not to ceremonies, schedules, plans, traditions, arrangements quenching the Spirit (I Thess. 5:19), which dishonors God.

1.  See my comments under #6.

2.  Again, nothing about holding on to Truth, submitting to authority, putting out the false teacher....

3.  Again, sure sounds like, "Everyone just appoint yourself as the infallible/unaccountable Pope of yourself, just make YOU the infallible, individual interpreter of whatever you regard as Authoritative, reinvent the wheel every day - hey, it's LIBERTY!"  Creating 2.2 billion sects is hardly the answer to sectarianism....

 

QuoteMan-made systems may have some or all of the following:
1.   A paid or volunteer preacher or minister to act as kind of a priest, like the religion of Israel, and thereafter like the Roman Catholic Religion, rather than the exercise of the "priesthood" of believers (I Pet.2).  No appointed leader is given for the church.  Pastors, teachers, evangelists, and elders (in the plural) are gifts, not titles and appointments by men.

1 and 2 Timothy or Titus, or the Book of Acts.  They are FILLED with teachings about pastors, bishops, deacons, elders.

I wonder that the author's church looks like.   No organist, no ushers.  No janitors or anyone to write the checks or turn on the lights or sing in the choir.  No choir leader, no elders, no Sunday School teachers.  And since it has no Tradition, it has no agreed upon day or time in which to meet - or even a place to meet.  No volunteers allowed.  No one is paid for anything.   I am more than curious to see how all that works in the author's church.  The church gets an electric bill - but no one is allowed to pay it (no volunteers allowed).   There's members but of what since no organizations are allowed.  They'd like to worship but they can't know when or where or what day because tradition isn't allowed.  There's no one to unlock the doors and electricity is not permitted (it's not perscribed in Scripture - it's a "innovation").  No one to hand out anything (and such isn't allow - innovation).  No Sunday School (tradition, innovation) or Sunday School teachers (volunteers).  I guess there's Bible study but no Bible (the books in it are all there by tradition) and no one to lead it (no volunteers allowed). 

Quote3.  Choirs or musical bands to entertain the congregation, rather than "the fruit of our lips", which is praise to God.

No electricity, musical instruments, chairs or building either.  No agreed upon day or time or place to worship either.  That would be human innovention and Tradition.  

Quote4.  Organized programs and activities to occupy the saints, rather than an individual exercise to serve the Lord, and a quiet waiting on the Holy Spirit to lead.

No worship services, no Sunday School, no evangelism events.  NOTHING to get in the way of the extreme individualism being promoted:  each one to himself, each one his own Pope, each one a sect unto himself.   I'm just completely failing to see how this does anything about sectarianism.

                                                   

Quote6.  Emphasis on preaching, rather than on collective Bible study and true worship (Acts 2:42).

Of course, Jesus preached OFTEN and never once lead a Bible study.   The author just condemned Jesus.

Quote7.   not receiving the truth of the Word.

From whom?  Remember - there are no volunteers, no pastors, no teachers.
From what?  Remember - there is no tradition allowed, thus no agreement on what is and is not Scripture.
What Truth?  Remember - everyone decides that for himself/herself, as his/her own infallible Pope, it's "Liberty"

Nope, I can't find much of anything in this to agree with.  I agree with the Scriptures referenced (but curiously never quoted) but not the very odd, lopsided, extreme and impossible applications of such.  His "solution" of everyone being his own sect - void of Scripture, history/tradtion, teachers, organizations, all this "just Jesus and ME - our own little church" stuff, while very American and modern, does nothing for sectarianism but fully embrace it to its most radical extreme.



Maybe, if we dig, there's something here.  I think the desire to be less divisive is a good thing.  But he makes it SO lopsided, so extreme that it's entirely unworkable and IMHO unbiblical.  IMHO, he has taken us back to Rome, only worse: each one is Rome, his/her own Pope with NOTHING to govern it but his/her OWN unaccountable views based on whatever he/she wants to regard as authoritative.  Dangerous, IMHO.  Again, making 2.2 sects is no answer to sectarianism.   His concern is probably valid, his solutions only make it much worse.




Just my $0.01


Pax


- Josiah







.

It is a good article, but all the principles are ususally agreed upon by all who follow Christ.Many denominations would agree with what is laid down. It will take specific interpretations of a limited number of verses to say where the divisions lay, and how it will line up. I have attended one fellowship for thirty some ears, and only recently, out of physical necessity, attended another. I can say, except for some small differences, there is no essential difference in what they believe. To me, the divisions are not necessary but, are they such as to condemn the practitioners??? For the two I have experienced, I will have to say no.......

Most Chistian denominations have the same core set of beliefs.  That is what makes us Christians!  That is, Jesus Christ!

The problem lies in the "disputable matters" that Paul talks about in Romans 14.   Too often we take these matters where it is ok to disagree (Paul says God accepts both!), and use them as a condition of fellowship.  Some go one step farther and make it a condition of salvation!

That is the sin involved.  Dividing the body of Christ because you place more importance on your own doctrine than on Jesus Christ himself.  Doctrin is important, but Jesus is more important!

Doctrine causes division.  Jesus can bring us together!

It's all about Jesus.

So, OneBody, you do not see a difference between being in the church, and acting responsibly in the church.  That seems to be what you are saying --that the doctrines of God in His Word are not to be esteemed, but just go on believing in Christ and ignoring the practical expression of the "one body in Christ" (Rom. 12;  1 Cor. 12;  Eph. 4; etc).

What you are advocating is sectarianism, which is contrary to God's Word.  A local assembly of God should only be a local expression of the universal church.  Such unity is actually going on (since the revival of 1827).  One should really take "all the counsel of God", and see that the church is not only "one body", but God exhorts true believers to express and show forth that unity.  I hope you come to see and appreciate that.

- Seriousseeker

I am really confused by you respsone... 

Do you believe that our own personal dogma is more important than Jesus Christ?

Do you believe that focusing on Jesus Christ to work together as one body is "sectarianism?"  If so, how?

I never said we should ignore all doctrine, I just said that Jesus Christ is more important than the disputable matters in the Bible.  Do you disagree?

Quote from: OneBody on Sun Aug 08, 2010 - 08:44:24
I am really confused by you respsone... 

Do you believe that our own personal dogma is more important than Jesus Christ?

Do you believe that focusing on Jesus Christ to work together as one body is "sectarianism?"  If so, how?

I never said we should ignore all doctrine, I just said that Jesus Christ is more important than the disputable matters in the Bible.  Do you disagree?

I said nothing about my thoughts being more important than Jesus Christ ---you said that.  Nothing was said by me about diminishing the work or person of Christ ---you said that.

I disagree with your statements, and I don't know why you chose to make issues over things you imagine, rather than what I said.  I wonder what your problem is about seeing unity in the faith.  You seem to support the idea of sectarianism.

- Seriousseeker

Quote from: Seriousseeker on Mon Sep 13, 2010 - 21:46:59

Quote from: OneBody on Sun Aug 08, 2010 - 08:44:24
I am really confused by you respsone... 

Do you believe that our own personal dogma is more important than Jesus Christ?

Do you believe that focusing on Jesus Christ to work together as one body is "sectarianism?"  If so, how?

I never said we should ignore all doctrine, I just said that Jesus Christ is more important than the disputable matters in the Bible.  Do you disagree?

I said nothing about my thoughts being more important than Jesus Christ ---you said that.  Nothing was said by me about diminishing the work or person of Christ ---you said that.

I disagree with your statements, and I don't know why you chose to make issues over things you imagine, rather than what I said.  I wonder what your problem is about seeing unity in the faith.  You seem to support the idea of sectarianism.

- Seriousseeker

Seriousseeker, please take a deep breath and relax.  OneBody did not put any words in your mouth.  He asked you questions to see where you are coming from.  That is the key to working with our brothers and sisters in Christ...understanding where they are coming from.  Your choosing to go on the offensive rather than answer the questions is a big hinderance to the unity you say you are seeking. 

From what I read, OneBody stated that we should put aside our denominational differences and focus on Jesus.  That is the exact opposite of sectarianism.  Why are you claiming that he supports that idea when he very clearly stated the opposite?

Bottom line, if we are going to argue with each other, unity will never happen.

If we choose to understand each other, regardless of any perceived differences, that will go a long way to bringing us together in Christ.

Bond

C. H. Mackintosh penned these words many years ago-

Quote
Here lies the grand principle. God has various instruments for His work, and we should value them all as His instruments, and nothing more. It has ever been Satan's object to lead the Lord's people to set up heads of schools, leaders of parties, centres of cliques, thus splitting up the Church of God into sects, and destroying its visible unity. Let us not be ignorant of his devices; but in every possible way "endeavour to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace."

How is this great object to be attained? By keeping near the Centre — by abiding in Christ — by habitual occupation with Himself — by drinking deeply into His spirit, and walking in His footsteps — by lying at His feet, in true brokenness of spirit and humility of mind — by thorough consecration to His service, the furtherance of His cause, the promotion of His glory, the prosperity and blessing of every beloved member of His body.

Thus shall we be delivered from strife and contention, from the discussion of profitless questions and baseless theories, from partiality, prejudice, and predilection. We shall be able to see and appreciate all the varied lines of truth converging upon the one divine Centre, the varied rays of light emanating from the one eternal Source. We shall rejoice in the great fact that, in all the ways and works of God, in every department of nature and grace, in things on earth and things in Heaven, in time and eternity, it is not a dull uniformity but a delightful variety. In a word, God's universal and eternal principle is "DIVERSITY AND UNITY."

taken from http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/mackintosh/Bk6/DIVERSTY.html

Bondservant and Onebody, I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else, for I surely did not intend that.  

I became a bit upset with the statement that I was pushing my "own personal dogma", and other objections to unity in the faith by some other posters.  I see unity as the mind of God, and that is even beyond our unity as believers in Christ.  So often when I speak of unity I hear people say such as " we are all one in Christ".  Certainly that is true ---it is elementary, but that is not the same as "unity in the faith" for God's testimony in the world, and that is what I think is failing in Christianity today.   I think I know wherein the problem lies, and that is what the original paper on this thread addressed.  I won't pursue it here, but if one wishes to write me privately I would be pleased to discuss it there ---and calmly,  where I can carefully reply.  Look up always!

- Seriousseeker