Christian Forums

Christians, Jews, Muslims and Sikhs (for example) all worship one God.

Do we all worship the same God?

If not by what criteria do we make that judgement?

I believe Jews and Christians do.  I have never studied the Islam or Sikh religions.   

Whatever they called their "gods" both Israel and Judah worshipped the  "starry host." They were  abandoned to their wishes at Mount Sinai conditionally but finally when the elders fired  God and demanded  a king  like the nations so the could worship like the nations. This star worship, confesses the Jewish Encyclopedia, is called Sabazianism by both the Jews  and muslims

The Temple was operated by the Tribe  of Levi which Jacob  had warned againnst in Genesis 49 while he prophesied of the Christian  dispensation. The godly Jews attended synagogue (school of the Bible) which quarantined them outside of the walls in Jerusalem.   Christianity  especially by Paul in Galatians connects as the religion of Abrham 430 years before there was  a Law of Moses.

Islam is also based on the worship of the astrial deities and Allah  is the moon goddess.


Much of their "scripture" has its base in the ancient Babylonian legends which were repudiated when Moses wrote an inverted  version for a nation now doomed to return to Assyria and Babylon to their old career of robbing caravans.

The law as  a shadow or SKIA means a totally erroneous system: their real  covenant was a Covenant with Death. Christ in the prophets denies that any of the sacrificial system was commanded by God before they totally fell from Grace: Christ identifies the Civil-Military-Clergy complex as robbers and parasites.

Most organized or institutional christianism is also based on the Jewish system imposed as a curse and confined to the Civil-Military-Clergy.  As in most national temples, this was a state shrine and capital for the monarch--as oriental despots.  Temples were never "worship centers" but a place, including Jerusalem, to house and confine their god. Contrary to the Scribes of this Babylonish religion, God promised David a tent or family and not a HOUSE.

Conclusion: Christianity is based on the promise made to Abraham who was not a Jews: the godly people lived under a civil law but attended the Church in the Wilderness totally divorced from the sacrificial system. The priesthood of Jesus was based on Melchizedek who reigned during the time of Abraham before there were any Jews.

Thank you Blituri.  Wow you certainly know your history.  I learn so much on this forum.
Thank you again.
Candy

    Under "Star Worship" the Jewish Encyclopedia states:

    "Star Worship" is perhaps the oldest form of idolatry practiced by the ancients. The observation of the stars in the East very early led the people to regard the planets and the fixed stars as gods. The religion of the ancient Egyptians is known to have consisted preeminently of Sun-worship. Moses sternly warned the Israelites against worshipping the Sun, Moon, stars, and all the hosts of heaven (Deuteronomy 4:19; 17:3). The Israelites fell into this kind of idolatry and as early as the time of Amos they had the images of Siccuth and Chium, 'the stars of their god' (Amos 5:26); the latter name is generally supposed to denote the planet Saturn. That the Kingdom of Israel fell earlier than that of Judah is stated (II Kings 17:16) to have been due, among other causes, to its worshipping the host of heaven.

    But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship." Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals who worshipped the heavenly bodies, and poured out libations to them on the roofs of their houses (Zephaniah 1:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13)  Jeremiah, who prophesied in the sixth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin (591 B.C.) describes the worship of the Sun as practiced in the court of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:16) and that even after the destruction of the Temple the women insisted on continuing to worship the Queen of Heaven.
    "The ancient Hebrews, being nomads like the Arabs, favored the Moon, while the Babylonians, who were an agricultural nation, preferred the Sun. But, as appears from Ezekiel 20:7-8 the Moon-worship of the Israelites, even while they were still in Egypt was combined with Sun-worship."

The clue which got Stephen murdered when he repudiated the role of the temple:

        Acts 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Regarding Allah and Moon God it's worth reading this refutaion:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/moongod1.htm

Blituri's post sound to me like the sort of Catholicism is based on paganism trash that is thrown at Catholics.

"Say: He is Allah,
The One and Only.
"Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
"He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."
                         [Al-Qur'an 112:1-4]

As I underatand it Islam believes God created the sun and the moon just as Christians do. They consider themselves descendants of Abraham

Sikhs also believe in one God
"You are the Creator, O Lord, the Unknowable. You created the Universe of diverse kinds, colours and qualities. You know your own Creation. All this is your Play." (Guru Nanak, Var Majh)

"The Formless Supreme Being abides in the Realm of Eternity. Over His creation He casts His glance of grace. In that Realm are contained all the continents and the universes, Exceeding in number all count. Of creation worlds upon worlds abide therein; All obedient to His will; He watches over them in bliss, And has each constantly in mind." (Guru Nanak, Japji)

Newither of course understand God in the same way as us. For example they do not believe in the Trinity.

This referenced site proves that the "gods" of Jews and Muslims is not the TRUE God and Jehovah  commanded  us NOT to worship the "allahs."

After the fall from grace because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai, and Israel was cursed to be  returned "beyond Babylon"  Moses wrote an inverted version of the Babylonian (Arab) legends.  You can easily translate Genesis

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created (cast down) the heaven and the earth.

Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void;
        and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
        And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

However, Jehovah denies the Babylon verson Moses used to warn doomed Israel:

Is. 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens;
        God himself that formed the earth and made it;
        he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:
        I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Abraham was NOT a Jew: His seed through Isaac constituted  the true Israel. The Jews in Jerusalem trusted in Abraham their "father." However, they were NOT of Isaac and were not therefore the TRUE ISRAEL. That is why Jesus speaking for the LORD (not elohiyms) refused to speak to them.

Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images,
        the star of your god, (Elohiym:  gods plural)
        which ye made to yourselves.
Amos 5:27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus,
        saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

The Babylonians worshipped the El's. There were MANY Elohiym. However, the only TRUE Elohiym is the LORD Jehovah.

Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts;
     I am the first, and I am the last; and
     beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6 ( 45:21, 22)

The El worshipers were not Jehovah worshipers.

And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Isaiah 44:7

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses.
         Is there a God beside me?
         yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isaiah 44:8

This is what the LORD (Jehovah) says--your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things,
         who alone stretched out the heavens, who
         spread out the earth by myself Isaiah 44:24

        And I (God) will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places,
             that thou mayest know that I, the Lord,
             which call thee by thy name, am the God of ISRAEL. Isaiah 45:3

        I am the Lord, and there is none else,
              there is no God beside me: I girded thee,
             though thou hast not known me: Isaiah 45:5

        That they may know from the rising of the sun (east), and from the west,
              that there is none beside me.
              I am the Lord, and there is none else. Is.45:6

The El's says Moses CAST DOWN the earth  and destroyed it according to the legends they  and later Arabs honored.
        However, the Lord  Jehovah was  and is the ONLY REAL Elohiym.

            I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
                   I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

    Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods (elohim)
           that have not made the heavens and the earth,
           even they shall perish from the earth,
           and from under these heavens. Jeremiah 10:11

        He hath made the earth
                by his power,
        he hath established the world
                by his wisdom, and
        hath stretched out the heavens
                by his discretion. Jeremiah 10:12

When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar; he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth.
            He sends lightning with the rain
            and brings out (to and fro) the wind (spirit) from his storehouses. Jeremiah 10:13

Jacob warned everyone NOT to attend the assemblies of Levi and Dan  and not to make a covenant with them.

When Israel fell from Grace at Mount Sinai:

    Ex. 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said,
            LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people,
            which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power,
            and with a mighty hand?

    Ex. 32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel,
            Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate
            throughout the camp,
            and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion,
            and every man his neighbour.
    Ex. 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed,
            The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering,
            and abundant in goodness and truth,
    Ex. 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god:
            for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Jesus or Joshua means Jehovah-Saves as the LORD is always hyphenated.  Jacob repudiated the Levi tribe  abandoned to worship the SUN and MOON and STARS.

The abandoned Jews worshipped the ELS and therefore the ALLAH of Islam.
We are NOT to worship the ALLAH's  but Jehovah as the only REAL El with power.

Jesus (Jehovah-Saves) came in the Name of the Lord  Jehovah.
Muslims deny the role of Jesus  (Jehovah) and build on the foundation of the  ELOHIYM

The referenced  article prooves that  they worship the elohiym whom Jehovah said  DID NOT create anything and will PERISH.

Why would anyone pattern themselve after the  Bablonian ASTRIAL "gods many?"

Quote from: John 10:10 on Mon Sep 06, 2010 - 18:15:24
blituri,

If you do not understand that the true God of the Old Testament, whom many Jews worshiped and served, instituted the blood covenant with Jews of the OT whereby their sins were covered by the blood of animals until the coming of the eternal Word of God who became flesh and provided the New Covenant redemption/salvation that's in His blood, you don't understand a thing about Biblical truth, either then or now!

It's as simple and as difficult as that!

Repudiate what he said point by point, please.  Ad hominem attacks are pointless and prove little.

Jarrod

Why would I do that?  He's mostly right.  I might quibble with a point here or there, perhaps, but on the whole, I'd affirm:

• The Israelites at large continually apostated themselves by worshiping "gods" modeled on the planets, sun, moon, earth, fire, and many other things.
• God destroyed an entire generation in the desert after Sinai because of their unbelief.
• God gave the Israelites kings AS A PUNISHMENT, not a blessing, nor a sanction as to what their government ought to be.
• Solomon was not a godly king, and instituted pagan worship in Israel.
• Solomon should not have built the Temple, least of all hire Canaanites to build a pagan-style temple, or give cities in Israel BACK to the Canaanites for their trouble in doing so.  God did not sanction these actions.
• All of the kings of the Northern Kingdom were apostate, and most of the kings of the Southern Kingdom were too.
• The worshipers of the true God, in Israel, were almost always the minority, or the remnant.
• The temple of Solomon was used for pagan worship at least as much as it was for worshp of God.
• God had the temple destroyed.  Several times.
• The Levitical priesthood was not a good thing.  God abolished it for good cause.
• God sent both nations into captivity, several times, because of their repeated offenses.
• God divorced Israel for her infidelity.
• Neither the Pharisees nor Sadducees were any better than their forefathers, despite being professing monotheists.

Which statement is blameworthy, here? 

Jarrod

Quote from: winsome on Mon Sep 06, 2010 - 05:15:27
Regarding Allah and Moon God it's worth reading this refutaion:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/moongod1.htm

Blituri's post sound to me like the sort of Catholicism is based on paganism trash that is thrown at Catholics.

"Say: He is Allah,
The One and Only.
"Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
"He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."
                         [Al-Qur'an 112:1-4]

As I underatand it Islam believes God created the sun and the moon just as Christians do. They consider themselves descendants of Abraham

Sikhs also believe in one God
"You are the Creator, O Lord, the Unknowable. You created the Universe of diverse kinds, colours and qualities. You know your own Creation. All this is your Play." (Guru Nanak, Var Majh)

"The Formless Supreme Being abides in the Realm of Eternity. Over His creation He casts His glance of grace. In that Realm are contained all the continents and the universes, Exceeding in number all count. Of creation worlds upon worlds abide therein; All obedient to His will; He watches over them in bliss, And has each constantly in mind." (Guru Nanak, Japji)

Newither of course understand God in the same way as us. For example they do not believe in the Trinity.

The link is dead, at least, it would not work for me.

Still, blituri is correct about the mood god.  "Allah" was a minor deity worshipped by mohammed and the rest of the city of Mecca.  When Mohammed founded Islam he claimed that "Allah" was not just a minor deity, but the God of Abraham.

This claim is false, however, as "Allah" has no son.

The God of Abraham has a Son.

"Allah" is just one being.

The God of Abraham exists in three entities.

"Allah" cannot be the God of Abraham, unless you wish to deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

Bond

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 14:21:40
Why would I do that?  He's mostly right.  I might quibble with a point here or there, perhaps, but on the whole, I'd affirm:

• The Israelites at large continually apostated themselves by worshiping "gods" modeled on the planets, sun, moon, earth, fire, and many other things.
• God destroyed an entire generation in the desert after Sinai because of their unbelief.
• God gave the Israelites kings AS A PUNISHMENT, not a blessing, nor a sanction as to what their government ought to be.
• Solomon was not a godly king, and instituted pagan worship in Israel.
• Solomon should not have built the Temple, least of all hire Canaanites to build a pagan-style temple, or give cities in Israel BACK to the Canaanites for their trouble in doing so.  God did not sanction these actions.
• All of the kings of the Northern Kingdom were apostate, and most of the kings of the Southern Kingdom were too.
• The worshipers of the true God, in Israel, were almost always the minority, or the remnant.
• The temple of Solomon was used for pagan worship at least as much as it was for worshp of God.
• God had the temple destroyed.  Several times.
• The Levitical priesthood was not a good thing.  God abolished it for good cause.
• God sent both nations into captivity, several times, because of their repeated offenses.
• God divorced Israel for her infidelity.
• Neither the Pharisees nor Sadducees were any better than their forefathers, despite being professing monotheists.

Which statement is blameworthy, here?  

Jarrod

I am usually silent on these matters for reasons that may seem obvious to those who read on, particularly for the reason that I do not like or seek to disseminate information that may have a tendency to dilute or weaken one's faith in the gospel.


However Blit conveys a lot of information that can be confusing to some if taken out of its proper context


It seems to me that some of what is considered star worship may be a misunderstanding of the gospel according to the stars just as many people misunderstand the Gospel of Christ as spoken by Him and as recorded in the New Testament.

Somehow Satan always gets into things and changes the intended meaning for those who are easily misled


I believe this is what Paul was referring to here

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse Romans 1

In other words before scripture was recorded and written, oral tradition was sustained according to what God had made plain in the sky. Unfortunately tradition interprets God's wrath as fire and brimstone or thunderbolts from heaven but this does not hold up in the context of what Paul is saying

This is how the Magi came to know, with Daniels help of the Saviors birth and if one was acquainted with
the knowledge of the ancient mystics as I had been at one time in my past, one would know that there was a point in Egypt's history where it played a "positive" role in God's plans. ( Isaiah 19:19 )

Even Jesus spent quite some of his childhood there until Herod died ( Matthew 2:13-23 )

Just as Paul went to Arabia ( Gal 1:17 ) and a Roman soldier thought him to be an Egyptian  ( Acts 21:38 )

I won't go too much into that except to say that the "legendary" mystery of the Sphinx refers to the head of a woman, not a man with the body of a lion which refers to the Virgin Birth of Jesus and the Lion of Judah, which in turn refer to the Zodiac signs Virgo and Leo

These as the other astrological signs were corrupted to mean everything else other than their intended use which was to convey the coming of the Messiah and the various phases of His victory over the serpent/dragon as foretold in Genesis 3:15

Each sign was set to refer to a particular aspect of Jesus and nothing else. This is how the gospel was communicated before being written down and before the knowledge of the stars was corrupted and co-opted by Satan as Blit so often refers to as the starry host....

However one should keep in mind it is God who cast the stars and it is He who has done so purposely

He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the South
Job 9:9 



I think Blit discredits too much of Jewish history, theology and thereby the Christian roots
thereof as if God doesn't really have a master plan in and through all of it

Amen ?

As to the OP, any religion that worships a God that does not receive Jesus as Christ and the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God is by definition

Not the same God


For God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit not the distant God of the OT, and not the moon God of Abraham's homeland     

I consider the issue of whether 'Allah' is a legitimate name for God and the question of whether Muslims worship the same God as two different issues.

There are those that argue that 'Allah' was a name for a Sabean false god of the moon, and that the feminine of the word 'Allat' was the word for the sun goddess.  This may or may not be true. But  this alone does not prove that the word 'Allah' is an illegitimate name for God.

The word or particle 'El' shows up in the Bible in reference to God.  God is referred to as El-Shaddai, for example.  But 'el' was also used to refer to false gods.  Archeologists uncovered the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit.  the Ugarits had a pantheon where the head god was called 'El.'  But he did some undignified things like get drunk and fall in his own excrement or vomit (don't remember which) in their mythology.  This god is not the true God, even though the same name was used. 

I studied Arabic in college, and my professor said that Allah was the pre-Islamic name for God used by Jews and Christians. This may be the case.  It is difficult to prove since churches at that time left us without solid written evidence (liturgies, etc.) to verify the claim. 

Based on what my professors have told me (including Jews) the historical linguists of the 1800's reconstructed the word 'Allah' to have come from 'Al' + 'illah.'  'Al' translates as 'the' in English.  The word 'illah' translates as 'god.'  If this is the case, then Allah means 'the God.'  Also, note that 'illah' is cognate with the Hebrew word Eloah, a word for God.  I wonder what the history of the English word 'God' is.  The connection to the Biblical Hebrew word for God seems a lot weaker than the connection for the word 'Allah.'

I have also read an alternative derivation that it came from an Aramaic word for God used by Jews and Christians-- Allaha.  I do not know what historical Linguists have written about this.

I did, however, find one piece of evidence.  One of the early saints that brought Christianity to Arabic speaking communities was named Abdullah.  And Abdullah was a common Christian name at that time.    Abdullah is a combination of 'Abdu + Allah.'  (Unlike Al+illah-->Allah, the contraction Abdullah comes from a predictable rule of Arabic grammar.) 

So there was an early Christian named Abdullah and later Christians used that name for their children.  I suppose one could argue that Abdullah had a pagan name and Christians copied it.  I find that somewhat unlikely.  Apollos was an early saint with a pagan name, but how many Greek-speaking Christians have you read about in the centuries after gave their children that pagan name?  I've never heard of any.

I speak Indonesian.  When i read the Bible pray, or teach in Indonesian, I call God 'Allah.'  Numerous other Christians in Indonesia and in Arabic speaking countries do the same.  I really think American Christians need to get an education and be careful about saying things like "Allah is not God."  How would you like it if someone came to your church, stood up, and taught that "God is not the Elohim of the Bible" based on some arguments from Germanic etymology.  Would that be edifying to your church?

Regarding whether Muslims worship the same God, the following verse is relevant.

John 4
22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Verse 22 debunks some of the arguments blituri made as well.  John 8:54 shows that the Jewish leaders who opposed Christ were at least claiming Christ's Father as God, even if they were not obeying and serving Him.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Sep 06, 2010 - 05:15:27
Regarding Allah and Moon God it's worth reading this refutaion:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/moongod1.htm

I read some of the other stuff Osama has posted on this website, and there is a lot of junk and misinformation.  He took quotes about a husband checking his wife to see if she were menstruating and said that it was about fathers digitally checking their daughter's virginity. 

The message you mentioned looks like junk linguistics to me.  First, I don't trust him that Eloah could be 'Alah' in Hebrew.  Does he know enough Hebrew to say whether such a word exists with that spelling?  If no such word exists that corresponds with a triliteral root, his argument is invalid.

Secondly, a doubled 'l' is pronounced differently than a singular 'l' in Arabic, and 'Alah' and 'Allah' are not the same thing.  If he speaks Arabic, he should know better than to make this argument.

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 16:25:59
I am usually silent on these matters for reasons that may seem obvious to those who read on, particularly for the reason that I do not like or seek to disseminate information that may have a tendency to dilute or weaken one's faith in the gospel.

I can really sympathize with that.  I nearly stopped posting here for this very reason.  But in the end, I decided that the light ought to shine, whether it was well-received or ill-received, or not-received.

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 16:25:59However Blit conveys a lot of information that can be confusing to some if taken out of its proper context

And the Understatement-of-the-Year award goes to...

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 16:25:59
It seems to me that some of what is considered star worship may be a misunderstanding of the gospel according to the stars just as many people misunderstand the Gospel of Christ as spoken by Him and as recorded in the New Testament.

Somehow Satan always gets into things and changes the intended meaning for those who are easily misled

I believe this is what Paul was referring to here

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse Romans 1

In other words before scripture was recorded and written, oral tradition was sustained according to what God had made plain in the sky. Unfortunately tradition interprets God's wrath as fire and brimstone or thunderbolts from heaven but this does not hold up in the context of what Paul is saying

This is how the Magi came to know, with Daniels help, of the Savior's birth and if one was acquainted with the knowledge of the ancient mystics as I had been at one time in my past, one would know that there was a point in Egypt's history where it played a "positive" role in God's plans. ( Isaiah 19:19 )

Even Jesus spent quite some of his childhood there until Herod died ( Matthew 2:13-23 )

Just as Paul went to Arabia ( Gal 1:17 ) and a Roman soldier thought him to be an Egyptian  ( Acts 21:38 )

I won't go too much into that except to say that the "legendary" mystery of the Sphinx refers to the head of a woman, not a man with the body of a lion which refers to the Virgin Birth of Jesus and the Lion of Judah, which in turn refer to the Zodiac signs Virgo and Leo

These as the other astrological signs were corrupted to mean everything else other than their intended use which was to convey the coming of the Messiah and the various phases of His victory over the serpent/dragon as foretold in Genesis 3:15

Each sign was set to refer to a particular aspect of Jesus and nothing else. This is how the gospel was communicated before being written down and before the knowledge of the stars was corrupted and co-opted by Satan as Blit so often refers to as the starry host....

You ought to post in the whirwind's thread on chariots and whirlwinds.

Back on topic, are you saying that the Israelites were not engaging in the worship of astral deities?  Maybe I misunderstand... it sounds like you're saying that they were, uh... celebrating the events portrayed there, rather than worshiping the planetes themselves.

Without detracting from the validity of that-which-is-written-in-the-stars, I would have to maintain that they were doing the former, rather than the latter.

QuoteHowever one should keep in mind it is God who cast the stars and it is He who has done so purposely

He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the South
Job 9:9

I think Blit discredits too much of Jewish history, theology and thereby the Christian roots
thereof as if God doesn't really have a master plan in and through all of it

Amen ?

Of course God has a plan!  But when we watch the play God has put on stage - The History of Israel - we should not conclude that this is the pattern to follow!  The history of Israel (like most good plays), is a comedy, and a tragedy, about the failure of Israel to follow God's very simple plans, their abililty to bend them around and make them into a complicated burden, and otherwise screw it up over and over in new and exciting ways.

Jarrod

The danger, real and present and throuhout history is that people will see the history of the Civil-military-priestly complex as a pattern for the ekklesia / synagogue which is God's plan for the godly people first articulated in the wildernss.

The history of the Nation is like that of most nation states at that time and place. This is what the elders demanded of Samuel. God told Samuel to listen to their prayer because they were rejecting Him. God warned them what the national (goyim or gentile) system would to to rob, enslave and cause them to go into captivity and death. This was the conditional sentence imposed at Mount Sinai.  Because God abandoned them to worship the astrial deities--just like the nations around them--we are forced to accept that the scribes of the abandoned nation describe such worship.

Faith rests on the fact that Christ in Spirit guided the spiritual people: the qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness never changed: it was a place to rest, read the Word of God and learn it. God never commanded any kind of sacrificial rituals if you  listen to the Spirit of Christ in the prophets.

Quote from: Link on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 18:17:35
I consider the issue of whether 'Allah' is a legitimate name for God and the question of whether Muslims worship the same God as two different issues.

There are those that argue that 'Allah' was a name for a Sabean false god of the moon, and that the feminine of the word 'Allat' was the word for the sun goddess.  This may or may not be true. But  this alone does not prove that the word 'Allah' is an illegitimate name for God.

The word or particle 'El' shows up in the Bible in reference to God.  God is referred to as El-Shaddai, for example.  But 'el' was also used to refer to false gods.  Archeologists uncovered the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit.  the Ugarits had a pantheon where the head god was called 'El.'  But he did some undignified things like get drunk and fall in his own excrement or vomit (don't remember which) in their mythology.  This god is not the true God, even though the same name was used. 

I studied Arabic in college, and my professor said that Allah was the pre-Islamic name for God used by Jews and Christians. This may be the case.  It is difficult to prove since churches at that time left us without solid written evidence (liturgies, etc.) to verify the claim. 

Based on what my professors have told me (including Jews) the historical linguists of the 1800's reconstructed the word 'Allah' to have come from 'Al' + 'illah.'  'Al' translates as 'the' in English.  The word 'illah' translates as 'god.'  If this is the case, then Allah means 'the God.'  Also, note that 'illah' is cognate with the Hebrew word Eloah, a word for God.  I wonder what the history of the English word 'God' is.  The connection to the Biblical Hebrew word for God seems a lot weaker than the connection for the word 'Allah.'

I have also read an alternative derivation that it came from an Aramaic word for God used by Jews and Christians-- Allaha.  I do not know what historical Linguists have written about this.

I did, however, find one piece of evidence.  One of the early saints that brought Christianity to Arabic speaking communities was named Abdullah.  And Abdullah was a common Christian name at that time.    Abdullah is a combination of 'Abdu + Allah.'  (Unlike Al+illah-->Allah, the contraction Abdullah comes from a predictable rule of Arabic grammar.) 

So there was an early Christian named Abdullah and later Christians used that name for their children.  I suppose one could argue that Abdullah had a pagan name and Christians copied it.  I find that somewhat unlikely.  Apollos was an early saint with a pagan name, but how many Greek-speaking Christians have you read about in the centuries after gave their children that pagan name?  I've never heard of any.

I speak Indonesian.  When i read the Bible pray, or teach in Indonesian, I call God 'Allah.'  Numerous other Christians in Indonesia and in Arabic speaking countries do the same.  I really think American Christians need to get an education and be careful about saying things like "Allah is not God."  How would you like it if someone came to your church, stood up, and taught that "God is not the Elohim of the Bible" based on some arguments from Germanic etymology.  Would that be edifying to your church?

Regarding whether Muslims worship the same God, the following verse is relevant.

John 4
22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Verse 22 debunks some of the arguments blituri made as well.  John 8:54 shows that the Jewish leaders who opposed Christ were at least claiming Christ's Father as God, even if they were not obeying and serving Him.

Link you made some good points but.....

I'd like to point out to you that Jehovah Witnesses and Christians worship a different God simply because God revealed Himself in Christ and they dispute, renounce and blaspheme the revelation of Jesus as fully God

So when I worship God I worship The God who revealed Himself as the Christ, they do not.....hence as far as they are concerned we worship a false God.

Also though your liberality towards Muslims is refreshing, noteworthy and to be commended for maintaining mutual respect and political correctness with our Muslim brothers.....

As one who somewhat adhered to Islam in my younger years I must tell you that far as they are concerned Christians are infidels guilty of heresy ...
and Jews though gracious towards us see us as tolerable though misguided regarding the true faith as they see it

So...the only believers who want to make God to be the same God as others worship are Christians who have a tendency to compromise our own faith just to keep the peace usually leads to Jesus is a way not The Way

Sorry ...that's how I see it

What say you?

QuoteBack on topic, are you saying that the Israelites were not engaging in the worship of astral deities?  Maybe I misunderstand... it sounds like you're saying that they were, uh... celebrating the events portrayed there, rather than worshiping the planetes themselves.

Without detracting from the validity of that-which-is-written-in-the-stars, I would have to maintain that they were doing the former, rather than the latter.

I am actually agreeing that many of them were spiritually adulterous but through it God was maintaining a righteous bloodline.

I am also saying the purpose of the genealogies through the OT and in Matthew were to show God's persistent consistency in maintaining a righteous bloodline through which would come the seed

I am also saying Satan's entire focus from Genesis 3:15 onward was to find the Seed of the woman and destroy it and that his means of doing so was through his constant attempts to obliterate any bloodline that seemed to be the  one through which the Seed of the woman would come

I am also saying this plan is written in the constellations for all to see and therefore there are no mistakes no coincidences in the history of Israel or the unfolding of of plan

I am also saying the Magi which were many and not 3 as legend portrays knew the date time and locale of the Messiah and the brightest star in the constellation Virgo is Spica which is the grain of wheat

I am also saying Paul was aware of this and so alluded to this as well in Romans. It's very controversial and not something I would argue today as I did in former years however....

I am saying that too many people have a watered down almost illiterate understanding of The Gospel as Christ just as many people back then had a watered down plagerized misunderstanding of the constellations

As a result false virgin myths are to be found among every civilization even to the furthest corners of the deepest jungles.... all with a slight tinge of the original truth which is found in Genesis 3:15

Twisted and embellished just enough to have no resemblance to the original yet be close enough that non believers insist, as I used to that Christians borrowed myths from pagans not realizing it was through Cain the story came to the Pagan world and took on a life of its own....

...at least that's how I see it 

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 17:02:45
As to the OP, any religion that worships a God that does not receive Jesus as Christ and the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God is by definition

Not the same God

Doesn't your statement here contradict the following verse?

John 8
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

These Jews who rejected Christ were still calling the correct Entity God, but they were not serving him properly, and they were not saved. 

I do not believe it is right to say that Jews are not worshipping the same God if they worship the God of Abraham.  But if they reject Christ, they reject their salvation.  Worshipping the same God and salvation are two different issues.

There were Jews who worshipped God in Isaiah's day and in the first century who worshipped God of whom it is written,

"...but in vain do they worship me.  They teach for doctrines the commandments of men."

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 18:53:15
I'd like to point out to you that Jehovah Witnesses and Christians worship a different God simply because God revealed Himself in Christ and they dispute, renounce and blaspheme the revelation of Jesus as fully God

If God said that the Jews, who rejected Him, claimed His Father as their God, can you say that the JW's do not worship God?

Again, salvation and worshipping the same God are two different issues.

Quote
Also though your liberality towards Muslims is refreshing, noteworthy and to be commended for maintaining mutual respect and political correctness with our Muslim brothers.....

I do not care much about being politically correct.  I can see both sides of the argument as to whether Muslims worship the same God.  My concern in the previous post was with people who say that "Allah is not God."  There are plenty of Arabic and Indonesian speaking brothers who call God 'Allah' in their languages.  This issue has caused some confusion in Indonesia, with one group producing a Bible that substitutes 'Elohim' for Allah, while maintaining the word for the translation of 'kurious' (Lord) that means God.  If anything, they should change that to better reflect the Greek.  But I digress....

The issue of whether Muslims worship 'the same Allah' is another issue.  But I think it is helpful if we can use the word 'Allah' for God if we find ourselves speaking Arabic or Indonesian and sharing the Gospel. 

A friend of mine pointed out that the Koran (or perhaps hadith) says that Muhammad's Allah was the greatest deceiver of all.  The Bible teaches that Satan is the father of lies. 

Quote
As one who somewhat adhered to Islam in my younger years I must tell you that far as they are concerned Christians are infidels guilty of heresy ...

the Arabic professor whose classes I took as an undergrad saw Christians and Jews as 'people of the book' and pagans as 'kafir'/infidels.  Another professor interpreted the Koran that way.

Quote
So...the only believers who want to make God to be the same God as others worship are Christians who have a tendency to compromise our own faith just to keep the peace usually leads to Jesus is a way not The Way

Gospel, I am just trying to be faithful to the scripture in my terminology.  I did not say that Muslims worship the same God.  I did argue that the evidence, IMO, points to 'Allah' being a legitimate name for God in Arabic, cognate with the Hebrew word for God.
Sorry ...that's how I see it

What say you?
[/quote]

Quote from: Link on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 19:45:03

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 17:02:45
As to the OP, any religion that worships a God that does not receive Jesus as Christ and the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God is by definition

Not the same God

Doesn't your statement here contradict the following verse?

John 8
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

These Jews who rejected Christ were still calling the correct Entity God, but they were not serving him properly, and they were not saved. 

I do not believe it is right to say that Jews are not worshipping the same God if they worship the God of Abraham.  But if they reject Christ, they reject their salvation.  Worshipping the same God and salvation are two different issues.

There were Jews who worshipped God in Isaiah's day and in the first century who worshipped God of whom it is written,

"...but in vain do they worship me.  They teach for doctrines the commandments of men."

But if someone mis characterizes YOU and does not understand YOU and in turn has a shallow relationship with YOU

You'd have to say THEY DO NOT KNOW YOU


The Jews who do not recognize Jesus DID NOT KNOW GOD, all who recognizes Jesus whether they be Jewish or Gentile know the True God

Those who do not recognize Jesus DO NOT KNOW THE TRUE GOD

Sorry but them there is the brass tacks

Now lets see what Jesus had to say on the matter

John 8:38 "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father."

Ouch !!!! That was so blunt it hurt me

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44

Oh man.... that had to sting something fierce don't you think?  


John 8:41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."

They argued God was their father but Jesus said it wasn't the case

Now you're going to argue with Jesus?

Not me.... I'm stickin' with what The Master said!

Now just ask yourself how could they worship the same God and in the same breath kill Jesus ?

Quote

The issue of whether Muslims worship 'the same Allah' is another issue.  But I think it is helpful if we can use the word 'Allah' for God if we find ourselves speaking Arabic or Indonesian and sharing the Gospel.

Its not complicated...if they do not worship Jesus they DO NOT worship the same God...everything else is semantics, pandering and political correctness


I understand what you mean by how they use the word Allah, but that has a lot to do with the fact that it is already enough they are not Muslims, practicing Christianity in a Muslim nation....

than to add further insult to injury in a Muslim nation by calling God something other than Allah and by the way ...

....I've been to Malaysia and you should know, either that or you failed to mention the big problem they had there when the government just recently lifted the ban on allowing Christians to have and sell bibles that called God... Allah

The attacks were sparked by a December 31 court ruling that allowed a Catholic newspaper The Herald to use the word Allah, in reference to God, in its Malay-language editions.

See this link http://www.worthynews.com/7307-arsonists-attack-fourth-church-in-malaysia


There were literal riots.

Muslims are very upset because TO THEM.....

Their Allah and the God we worship in Christianity ARE two different Gods

You do realize that don't you?  

A friend of mine pointed out that the Koran (or perhaps hadith) says that Muhammad's Allah was the greatest deceiver of all.  The Bible teaches that Satan is the father of lies.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Sep 05, 2010 - 06:34:34
Christians, Jews, Muslims and Sikhs (for example) all worship one God.

Do we all worship the same God?

If not by what criteria do we make that judgement?

I think that there are alot of characteristics are unique to Christianity. As for which criteria to adapt, I think that the following are crucial.

1) Sin atonement
I guess religions like Muslim is a later development borrowed from Judaism. Nevertheless, all religions bare the same characteristic that there is an attempt to stop sin. Unlike Christianity, all other religions set up rules and dogmas (i.e. Law and Commandments in Christianity) to deal with sin. So there should be a measurement on how successful these religions are in dealing with sin, and how forward minding these religions are in dealing with sin.

At least in our modern era, all other religions should be regarded as a failure, because nowadays people don't seem to be able to abide by those rules and dogma set up long time ago. Moreover, to those religions there are no forward minding changes or updates to deal with sin in our new era (i.e. modern times).

Only Christian God says that (by Paul in Hebrews) the old covenant is outdated because people cannot keep the Law anymore. Thus a new covenant will be in place. And very much smartly, the new covenant actually doesn't violate any existing Law statements as the Law and Commandments are still there, Grace is granted which is open to be chosen by the sinners. The Grace is the sin atonement by the blood of our Christ Jesus.

On the other hand, other religions will have to turn a blind eye on humans sinful nature helplessly. To them, nothing can be done though people no longer obey the rules and dogma set up. Moreover, some of those rules and dogmas are even considered inhuman in today's moral standard, such as stoning people to death.

Again smartly, those strict Law given by Moses are restricted to OT Jews only. The Law and Commandments are still there but Gentiles and today's Jews don't need to rely on a Judgment by Law to be saved, they are saved by believing Jesus through the New Covenant. Law has no effect to them, though they still need to obey the "love God and men" commandment.

You can treat the Commandment as an "out of Law" requirement by Jesus Himself. Jesus sets His own criteria such that only those regarded as Holy by Jesus' standard will be accepted as God's sheep. He can deny you if you fail His criteria, when you are denied then you are not entitled to the protection of the Second Covenant. That is, you have to go back to the Judgment by Law in this case, as the Law is still there in effect. To simply put, if you fail to get His Grace, then face His Law.

No other religion can be so logical as that plus that the logic itself is godly as it doesn't seem to be from humans and actually humans take a long long time to conclude it like this though it is clearly said in the Bible some 2000 years ago.

2) Testimony and witnessing
Now I assume that you met with God by yourself, so now you know God clearly. Yet how will you be able to tell others that God exists. The problem is "you can't". Even when you know God clearly there's still no an efficient way for the piece of truth to be conveyed. Others will have to have faith to believe or disbelieve what yoiu said. That is to say, all you can do are just testimony and witnessing. Testimony and witnessing are already the most efficient way for such a truth to be conveyed, even when you meet with God by yourself to know Him as a fact.

And coincidentially, only Christianity puts great amount of effort into testimony and witnessing. Actually the whole Bible can be regarded as a result of testimony and witnessing. That is to say, if all these religions can bear truth, then only Christianity can be the one.

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 19:57:47
Now just ask yourself how could they worship the same God and in the same breath kill Jesus ?

God said they worshipped him in vain.  They drew near to Him with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him.

One could worship (proskuneo--bow down/prostrate to) God, without knowing Him or being saved.  One could worship God in vain as well. 

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 20:05:09
Its not complicated...if they do not worship Jesus they DO NOT worship the same God...everything else is semantics, pandering and political correctness

Just out of curiosity, do you have a bit of a Oneness leaning at all?  Not accusing, just asking.

My argument is based squarely on scripture.  It is not based on pandering or political correctness.  The Pharisees Jesus addressed in John 8 did not believe in Him.  They did not accept Him as a prophet, and they wanted to stone Him.  But Jesus said they claimed that His Father was their God.  

Don't you see the monkey wrench that throws in your argument here?  I'd appreciate it if you address the scriptures I pointed out rather than implying that I am pandering.  

Again, that issue is whether Jews worship the same God.  Judaism, at least to some extent, is based on revelation in scripture.  Islam is another ball of wax.

Quote
I understand what you mean by how they use the word Allah, but that has a lot to do with the fact that it is already enough they are not Muslims, practicing Christianity in a Muslim nation....

than to add further insult to injury in a Muslim nation by calling God something other than Allah and by the way ...

....I've been to Malaysia and you should know, either that or you failed to mention the big problem they had there when the government just recently lifted the ban on allowing Christians to have and sell bibles that called God... Allah

The attacks were sparked by a December 31 court ruling that allowed a Catholic newspaper The Herald to use the word Allah, in reference to God, in its Malay-language editions.

See this link http://www.worthynews.com/7307-arsonists-attack-fourth-church-in-malaysia

I have not had a chance to check out the link yet.  I have never been to Malaysia, but I have heard about the restrictions on Christians using 'Allah' to refer to God.  Indonesian and Malaysian are almost mutually intelligible languages.  The languages use the same words, but many of the words have different meanings.  In some parts of Sumatra in Indonesia, they refer to the Indonesian language as 'Bahasa Melayu.'  I hear the language of the Indonesian Bible is formal enough to be rather close to Malay.  

I am glad they lifted the ban on the use of "Allah" in Christian literature in Malaysia.  I would not be surprised if Christians had been using the word for centuries.  It will probably help with getting Indonesian language literature into Malaysia without the threat of prosecution.

Quote
There were literal riots.

Muslims are very upset because TO THEM.....

Their Allah and the God we worship in Christianity ARE two different Gods

Not all Muslims think alike about such things.  Most Indonesian Muslims I have met do not think this way.  Educated Muslims should know that if they are saying that their God is not the God of the Christians and Jews, who worshipped the God of Abraham before them, then they are not worshipping the true God.  So the whole issue of outlawing the use of Allah by Christians is pretty foolish from that perspective.  Maybe they meant this as an anti-missionary law.  From what I hear, Malaysians allow a degree of freedom for Chinese and Indians to practice Christianity, but sharing the Gospel with the various Malay peoples can stir up some serious persecution.

Quote from: Link on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 20:39:57

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 19:57:47
Now just ask yourself how could they worship the same God and in the same breath kill Jesus ?

God said they worshipped him in vain.  They drew near to Him with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him.

One could worship (proskuneo--bow down/prostrate to) God, without knowing Him or being saved.  One could worship God in vain as well. 

Surely you realize in vain means for nothing, a complete waste of time e.g. meaningless as far as God is concerned

Therefore vain worship equates to no worship....you do realize that don't you?

Quote from: gospel on Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 02:00:15

Quote from: Link on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 20:39:57

Quote from: gospel on Tue Sep 07, 2010 - 19:57:47
Now just ask yourself how could they worship the same God and in the same breath kill Jesus ?

God said they worshipped him in vain.  They drew near to Him with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him.

One could worship (proskuneo--bow down/prostrate to) God, without knowing Him or being saved.  One could worship God in vain as well. 

Surely you realize in vain means for nothing, a complete waste of time e.g. meaningless as far as God is concerned

Therefore vain worship equates to no worship....you do realize that don't you?

It is worship with no positive effect.  If the question is whether Jews who do not believe in Jesus who worship the God of Abraham worship the same God or a different God, then the answer is yes, at least in the case of the Jews in the passages I mentioned. 

That does not mean their worship is meaningful or that they are saved.  It just means that who they are calling God is not a different God from the God of the Bible.  So you shouldn't say they worship a different God.

Islam is a different story.  Judaism gets its ideas about God at least partly from the Bible.  Islam's concept of God is different in many ways from the Biblical concept of God.  Earlier, I argued that I believe 'Allah' is not an illegitimate word for God in Arabic and certain other languages.  That does not mean that Islam teaches the correct concepts concerning God. 

QuoteIt is worship with no positive effect.  If the question is whether Jews who do not believe in Jesus who worship the God of Abraham worship the same God or a different God, then the answer is yes, at least in the case of the Jews in the passages I mentioned.

That does not mean their worship is meaningful or that they are saved.  It just means that who they are calling God is not a different God from the God of the Bible.  So you shouldn't say they worship a different God.

John 8:38 "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father."

Rationally and reasonably all that you have stated makes sense but unfortunately this thing is all about a Revelation of God in Christ

Now Jesus told the scribes and religious leaders the things they were doing wer the things they heard from THEIR FATHER

I prefer to not reason that away and simply take Jesus at His word!

The Word confirms this because according to John 1

NO ONE is a child of God until they are Born of God...that means NO ONE

That means EVERYONE born into the world is born as children of disobedience under the dominion of Satan

Therefore...

Anyone worshiping God in any way other than in the Name of Jesus is not worshiping the same God as we.

The fact that they believe they are has no bearing on the Truth

This is the urgency behind Going Ye into all the World ....because people are perishing everyday worshiping the wrong God

And God is not willing that any should perish

This may seem unreasonable and illogical but it is in fact The Gospel of Jesus

Gospel,

Our discuss may seem to some as an issue of semantics.  But this is an important distinction.  

Your argument that if they do not accept Christ, they are worshipping a different God sounds appealing.  It seems rational.  But if we really study the discussion in the Bible on these issues, the argument does not hold up, brother.

In the Bible we see people who:

1. worship God in spirit and in truth
2. worship God in vain
3. worship other gods

You can probably find some other categories as well.  If you lump categories 2 and 3 in one category, you can end up in unnecessarily offensive discussion with people (e.g. Jews) that are not productive when you try to witness.

Consider John 4, which discusses the issue of worship.

20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Notice in verse 22, 'we' know what we worship.  The Jews know what they worship.  The Samaritan woman has been contrasting Jews and Samaritans throughout her conversation with Christ.  Christ points out that the Jews know what they worship.

It is helpful to keep in mind that 'worship' refers to prostration.  The Samaritans prostrated toward their temple, and the Jews prostrated toward the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem.  

Jesus said 'ye worship ye know not what.'  The Samaritans accepted a slightly altered first six books of the Bible that endorsed the temple at Mt. Garazim.  Jewish tradition says that a high priest's brother was barred by his brother from temple service for marrying a daughter of Sanballat (one of the Sanballats of that dynasty.)  His father-in-law offered him to build a temple and be high priest of that temple on Mt. Garazim.  It would seem what the Samaritans had was a lot closer to genuine divine revelation than Muslims.  Yet Jesus said, 'ye worship ye know not what.'  (Prostrate toward what they do not know.)  


There are Jews who worship the right spiritual entity, the right God, but do not do so in a right manner, with faith in christ.  


In Romans, Paul writes of Israel,

9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
10:1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
10:2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Notice that even unbelieving Jews have a zeal of God.  Notice Paul says 'God', not a zeal after Baal, but a zeal of God.

It is not correct to say that these Jews do not worship God.  We also have to realize that worshipping God does not guarantee salvation, or that one's worship will be acceptable to God. But let us be consistent with what God says on the matter.  This is a matter of revelation, and God has revealed much on this issue in His word.  We should not just run with our own terminology and our own opinions.  

Quote from: Link on Wed Sep 08, 2010 - 17:42:11
Gospel,

Our discuss may seem to some as an issue of semantics.  But this is an important distinction.  

Your argument that if they do not accept Christ, they are worshipping a different God sounds appealing.  It seems rational.  But if we really study the discussion in the Bible on these issues, the argument does not hold up, brother.

In the Bible we see people who:

1. worship God in spirit and in truth
2. worship God in vain
3. worship other gods

You can probably find some other categories as well.  If you lump categories 2 and 3 in one category, you can end up in unnecessarily offensive discussion with people (e.g. Jews) that are not productive when you try to witness.

Consider John 4, which discusses the issue of worship.

20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Notice in verse 22, 'we' know what we worship.  The Jews know what they worship.  The Samaritan woman has been contrasting Jews and Samaritans throughout her conversation with Christ.  Christ points out that the Jews know what they worship.

It is helpful to keep in mind that 'worship' refers to prostration.  The Samaritans prostrated toward their temple, and the Jews prostrated toward the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem.  

Jesus said 'ye worship ye know not what.'  The Samaritans accepted a slightly altered first six books of the Bible that endorsed the temple at Mt. Garazim.  Jewish tradition says that a high priest's brother was barred by his brother from temple service for marrying a daughter of Sanballat (one of the Sanballats of that dynasty.)  His father-in-law offered him to build a temple and be high priest of that temple on Mt. Garazim.  It would seem what the Samaritans had was a lot closer to genuine divine revelation than Muslims.  Yet Jesus said, 'ye worship ye know not what.'  (Prostrate toward what they do not know.)  


There are Jews who worship the right spiritual entity, the right God, but do not do so in a right manner, with faith in christ.  


In Romans, Paul writes of Israel,

9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
10:1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
10:2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Notice that even unbelieving Jews have a zeal of God.  Notice Paul says 'God', not a zeal after Baal, but a zeal of God.

It is not correct to say that these Jews do not worship God.  We also have to realize that worshipping God does not guarantee salvation, or that one's worship will be acceptable to God. But let us be consistent with what God says on the matter.  This is a matter of revelation, and God has revealed much on this issue in His word.  We should not just run with our own terminology and our own opinions.  

Ok I don't want you to think I am holding on to this like a dog with bone, I understand Jews and Christians ultimately worship the same God, I was just belaboring a point which is this...

While Jews may respect Christians, ultimately they believe we are worshiping someone we BELIEVE is God but is not

Hence They do not worship the God we worship

Your point regarding discourse and evangelism is well taken yet over emphasized for  no one, certainly not I, would tell a non believer that they are living under the dominion of Satan in darkness as children of disobedience in order to win them....even though it is true, that would not be a respectful way to converse much less win souls and likewise it would be equally as fool hearty to tell a Jew their worship to God is in vain because He is not listening however ....

Jesus makes it clear that vain worship is worship that is a waste of time does He not or am I saying too strongly?

Actually he says it much more strongly...as follows

"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Matthew 15:14

Seems to me Jesus said the leaders are blind and the people are blind, so the blind people follow the blind leaders all will fall into a pit 

So while I would minister salvation upon its own merits, the reason I must is out of compassion for those on their way to the pit.

To be effective WE MUST KNOW CLEARLY the difference between vain worship God rejects and worship God receives

The God that required temple offerings and the blood of bulls and goats no longer exist, you can say He is the same God but He has given us Jesus as the perfect reflection of Himself

So is the God of the Jews Jesus? If Jesus is God but not their God who is their God?

I can't afford to waver on this because I believe that is the kind of wavering that leads to Jesus is A WAY rather than THE WAY that so many Christians are getting duped into
accepting

Hence the reason for my fervent rejection of your premise....despite understanding your reasoning

All those who took down our twin towers and killed innocent people thought they were going to Heaven and get vestal virgins,,,I forget how many. How disgusting to think that we would take any Carnal desire for sex into Heaven. There is neither male nor female in Heaven. Based on just this alone he could not be the same God. However there are tons of reasons why he is not.

Why do you say there is neither male nor female in Heaven? That phrase is from Galatians 3, which is pretty definitely talking about our life in Christ here and now, not Heaven.


26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Jews and the Christians have the same God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Msulims did not decend from Jacob,,,they are not in this line to Jesus and to the throne.

OOOP...your are right,,,,meant to say "the body of Christ"....not Heaven...you would think someone who has traveled the road as long as i have would not make that mistake....long day I guess.

Matthew 22;30, Jesus said we are as the angels in heaven , there is no marriage in heaven.
He does not say no male or female, but It does not say there is not male an female either , simply no marriage.
Jesus glorified body after the reserection retaned the scars and disfigurement, so with that evidence , and the fact that Jesus said , it is better to enter eternity with limbs missing blind and halt than to have your body whole, in hell.
  I guess i better take care of this temple much better than I have.