Christian Forums

OK LightHammer

Explain  to me !    And what is wrong with my bible church?  Which was once a Baptist church and they seen  [ Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth ]
And changed to bible not religion !

I know the C.C. has changed !  But it took me over 50 years before I became
saved . 

And now what will you tell me ?

I don't know what LightHammer will have to say, but that phrase "Rightly dividing the word of truth", hearkens back to quite an old heresy, called Marcionism, that was denounced over 1600 years ago.  It is a very dangerous interpretation of the Bible that implies that the body of Christ is divided and that we should follow after Paul alone as if he is our Rabbi.

I've listened to a local show on Protestant radio many times that promotes this heresy.  I'm sorry to use that harsh word, but there is no question about it; that's what it is. 

The truth is that there is only one covenant between all of God's people.  There is no remnant Judaic church that is gone and will return.  There is one body of Christ only, and all the words of scripture are for everyone.  It is wrong to think that the letters of the NT biblical authors were written to only a certain people in a certain time.  In fact, the letters of Peter, John, and Jude are called "catholic" letters, meaning that they were written specifically for everybody.

1Cor. 1:12 I mean that each of you is saying, "I belong to Paul,

Quote from: grams on Fri May 13, 2011 - 07:27:58
OK LightHammer

Explain  to me !    And what is wrong with my bible church?  Which was once a Baptist church and they seen  [ Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth ]
And changed to bible not religion !

I know the C.C. has changed !  But it took me over 50 years before I became
saved . 

And now what will you tell me ?

I'll tell you, if you don't mind my interjection.

Your leaders do not have apostolic authority.  They don't listen to those sent by Jesus but instead lean on their own understanding.

Jesus only started one Church.  He wants us to be united in the fullness of Truth and that is only possible in the Church Jesus gave us.

If I may also interject...

Chestertonrules,
Your faith is a matter between you and God. It is the same for all of us. It is a personal relationship.

My father's church is the Church of Christ. I don't know how closely they follow their leadership. But I do know that at least in his church, they believe that their teachings flow directly from Peter as well. 

Quote from: Kindle on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:27:37

If I may also interject...

Chestertonrules,
Your faith is a matter between you and God. It is the same for all of us. It is a personal relationship.

My father's church is the Church of Christ. I don't know how closely they follow their leadership. But I do know that at least in his church, they believe that their teachings flow directly from Peter as well. 

The problem is this.

There are many protestant denominations teaching doctrines that contradict each other.  By definition, these churches are teaching false doctrines.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Chruch

God's children are the church!!!

Quote from: grams on Fri May 13, 2011 - 07:27:58
OK LightHammer

Explain  to me !    And what is wrong with my bible church?  Which was once a Baptist church and they seen  [ Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth ]
And changed to bible not religion !

I know the C.C. has changed !  But it took me over 50 years before I became
saved . 

And now what will you tell me ?

Dear grams If i may. I see nothing wrong with you Bible church if they teach it in truth. Catholica saying there is heretical interpretation of the verse rightly dividing the word truth saying the church is divided. Well my self I have never heard of such a thing and i have been in churches for thirty years.

rightly dividing the word of truth simply means to know and understand it by studying it We must alway pray for Gods spirit to help us to understand Gods word and not to be mislead by any joe who says he is authority or some slick talking charismatic speaker. This is not to not listen to good sound teaching, but its not solely the teacher who gives us understanding but that by studying we can discern the truth and the leading of the Holy Spirit

Chesterton says we must listen to RCC authority only whereby he is doing the same thing that Catholica said of the heretical teachers  dividing  the church  

quote from catholica "implies that the body of Christ is divided and that we should follow after Paul alone as if he is our Rabbi."

Confusion to say the least

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:11:21

Your leaders do not have apostolic authority. 

Jesus only started one Church. 

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:47:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Chruch

God's children are the church!!!

Does the Church teach false doctrines?

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:07:31

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:47:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Church

God's children are the church!!!

Does the Church teach false doctrines?

No...that is why we so easily disqualify the Catholic Church...

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:11:39

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:07:31

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:47:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Church

God's children are the church!!!

Does the Church teach false doctrines?

No...that is why we so easily disqualify the Catholic Church...

Protestantism is full of multiple contradictory doctrines, and therefore, full of false teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches a single doctrine as directed by the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:16:00

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:11:39

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:07:31

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:47:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Church

God's children are the church!!!

Does the Church teach false doctrines?

No...that is why we so easily disqualify the Catholic Church...

Protestantism is full of multiple contradictory doctrines, and therefore, full of false teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches a single doctrine as directed by the Holy Spirit.

Whatever....

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:32:48

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:16:00

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:11:39

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:07:31

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:47:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Church

God's children are the church!!!

Does the Church teach false doctrines?

No...that is why we so easily disqualify the Catholic Church...

Protestantism is full of multiple contradictory doctrines, and therefore, full of false teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches a single doctrine as directed by the Holy Spirit.

Whatever....

No, not whatever.

Confront reality.

It is not possible that protestantism is being led into all Truth.  Therefore, it is not the Church Jesus started.

You can try to make the case that a single protestant denomination is the true Church, but then you must determine where the Church was for the 1500 years or so before the Reformation.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:38:24

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:32:48

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:16:00

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:11:39

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:07:31

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:47:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Church

God's children are the church!!!

Does the Church teach false doctrines?

No...that is why we so easily disqualify the Catholic Church...

Protestantism is full of multiple contradictory doctrines, and therefore, full of false teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches a single doctrine as directed by the Holy Spirit.

Whatever....

No, not whatever.

Confront reality.

It is not possible that protestantism is being led into all Truth.  Therefore, it is not the Church Jesus started.

You can try to make the case that a single protestant denomination is the true Church, but then you must determine where the Church was for the 1500 years or so before the Reformation.

Whatever

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:38:24

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:32:48

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:16:00

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:11:39

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:07:31

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:47:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Church

God's children are the church!!!

Does the Church teach false doctrines?

No...that is why we so easily disqualify the Catholic Church...

Protestantism is full of multiple contradictory doctrines, and therefore, full of false teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches a single doctrine as directed by the Holy Spirit.

Whatever....

No, not whatever.

Confront reality.

It is not possible that protestantism is being led into all Truth.  Therefore, it is not the Church Jesus started.

You can try to make the case that a single protestant denomination is the true Church, but then you must determine where the Church was for the 1500 years or so before the Reformation.

No they are not what Jesus started but those who live in glass houses should not through stones but own up to responsibility
I have already confronted reality and the truth
We know where the church was for 1500 years before the Reformation. And because  of that she gave birth to all these denominations you condemn

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:57:22

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:38:24

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:32:48

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:16:00

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:11:39

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:07:31

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:47:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Church

God's children are the church!!!

Does the Church teach false doctrines?

No...that is why we so easily disqualify the Catholic Church...

Protestantism is full of multiple contradictory doctrines, and therefore, full of false teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches a single doctrine as directed by the Holy Spirit.

Whatever....

No, not whatever.

Confront reality.

It is not possible that protestantism is being led into all Truth.  Therefore, it is not the Church Jesus started.

You can try to make the case that a single protestant denomination is the true Church, but then you must determine where the Church was for the 1500 years or so before the Reformation.

No they are not what Jesus started but those who live in glass houses should not through stones but own up to responsibility
I have already confronted reality and the truth
We know where the church was for 1500 years before the Reformation. And because  of that she gave birth to all these denominations you condemn

The Church still stands and it is larger than ever.  Jesus is leading his Church.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 11:11:32The Church still stands and it is larger than ever.  Jesus is leading his Church.

John 14:15...If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.  But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus is leading His children (the church), His Spirit lives in those who believe and His Spirit will be with them, we are not orphans.


The Catholic Church cannot accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.  They claim Him...but, the church does not know Him; the Catholic Church only knows of Him.  The Catholic Church has no personal relationship with the Counselor...the Holy Spirit.

What does Jesus command of us?

John 15:12...My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:22:19

The Catholic Church cannot accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.  They claim Him...but, the church does not know Him; the Catholic Church only knows of Him.  The Catholic Church has no personal relationship with the Counselor...the Holy Spirit.

What does Jesus command of us?

John 15:12...My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Another ignorant buffoon unable to defend his beliefs, so he lies about the Catholic Church.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:36:02

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:22:19

The Catholic Church cannot accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.  They claim Him...but, the church does not know Him; the Catholic Church only knows of Him.  The Catholic Church has no personal relationship with the Counselor...the Holy Spirit.

What does Jesus command of us?

John 15:12...My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Another ignorant buffoon unable to defend his beliefs, so he lies about the Catholic Church.

The truth will always hurt...and calling one names is evidence of that hurt; hurt people try to hurt people.

There is nothing anyone can say or do to hurt the Truth that lives in me.

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:53:31

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:36:02

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:22:19

The Catholic Church cannot accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.  They claim Him...but, the church does not know Him; the Catholic Church only knows of Him.  The Catholic Church has no personal relationship with the Counselor...the Holy Spirit.

What does Jesus command of us?

John 15:12...My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Another ignorant buffoon unable to defend his beliefs, so he lies about the Catholic Church.

The truth will always hurt...and calling one names is evidence of that hurt; hurt people try to hurt people.

There is nothing anyone can say or do to hurt the Truth that lives in me.

Your Father is not leading you in Truth.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 13:01:10

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:53:31

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:36:02

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:22:19

The Catholic Church cannot accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.  They claim Him...but, the church does not know Him; the Catholic Church only knows of Him.  The Catholic Church has no personal relationship with the Counselor...the Holy Spirit.

What does Jesus command of us?

John 15:12...My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Another ignorant buffoon unable to defend his beliefs, so he lies about the Catholic Church.

The truth will always hurt...and calling one names is evidence of that hurt; hurt people try to hurt people.

There is nothing anyone can say or do to hurt the Truth that lives in me.

Your Father is not leading you in Truth.

Love you man

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05

Quote from: Kindle on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:27:37

If I may also interject...

Chestertonrules,
Your faith is a matter between you and God. It is the same for all of us. It is a personal relationship.

My father's church is the Church of Christ. I don't know how closely they follow their leadership. But I do know that at least in his church, they believe that their teachings flow directly from Peter as well.  

The problem is this.

There are many protestant denominations teaching doctrines that contradict each other.  By definition, these churches are teaching false doctrines.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

You are no better off, as the RCC contradicts God's word in many ways.

We are all to allow ourselves as believers, to be led by Holy Spirit, who reveals the truth to us about everything from His Word.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:16:00

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:11:39

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 10:07:31

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:47:58

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 09:44:05
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, not some truth.

If only you understood the true meaning of The Church

God's children are the church!!!

Does the Church teach false doctrines?

No...that is why we so easily disqualify the Catholic Church...

Protestantism is full of multiple contradictory doctrines, and therefore, full of false teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches a single doctrine as directed by the Holy Spirit.

That is a boldfaced lie. The RCC teaches its own brand of truth that has been manipulated over centuries by fallible men, who have not relied on Scripture, but on religious feelings to dictate doctrine and traditions that the Bible doesn't even touch on!

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Fri May 13, 2011 - 12:22:19

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 11:11:32The Church still stands and it is larger than ever.  Jesus is leading his Church.

John 14:15...If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.  But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus is leading His children (the church), His Spirit lives in those who believe and His Spirit will be with them, we are not orphans.


The Catholic Church cannot accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.  They claim Him...but, the church does not know Him; the Catholic Church only knows of Him.  The Catholic Church has no personal relationship with the Counselor...the Holy Spirit.

What does Jesus command of us?

John 15:12...My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

I am thankful for you, Thankfulldad! You get manna!

Chestertonrules, I see what you are claiming.  But we need only to look at the history of the RCC to see just how this so called unity has been won.  I do not see how these things can be the Fruit of a Holy Spirit lead Church as you say.

The Catholic Church is an entity that had squashed all rivals prior to the reformation. The Christian sect known as the Cathars was put to the sword as late as the 1200s.  Politics and religion combined produced many wars. Disunion within the church leadership has met with charges of heresy and, possibly, excommunication, as the RCC claims to have the power to send their disobedient to eternal damnation.
Are the  Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites, Benedictines, etc. identical in their beliefs?  Didn't the Eastern Orthodox Church split off from the Roman Catholic Church over a question of Christology?
The EO has a patriarch. The RCC has a pope.  The two have very similar beliefs, but their beliefs differed enough to account for a schism.  

There are awesome Catholics out there, and a great, great many of them.  They are free to choose their faith  as are members of Protestant denominations.   But when you speak of the RCC, you speak of an entity than can err as easily as any Protestant Church.
As far as my historical references above.. I can't say that a Protestant Church (so empowered) would have done either any better, or any worse.  Even churches are, in part, a product of their times.  But the Protestant Church (churches) were not there.. so we cannot compare.  
I, at least, can see that my own church isn't perfect.. and I'll leave it at that.

Quote from: Kindle on Fri May 13, 2011 - 13:43:29

Chestertonrules, I see what you are claiming.  But we need only to look at the history of the RCC to see just how this so called unity has been won.  I do not see how these things can be the Fruit of a Holy Spirit lead Church as you say.

The Catholic Church is an entity that had squashed all rivals prior to the reformation. The Christian sect known as the Cathars was put to the sword as late as the 1200s.  Politics and religion combined produced many wars. Disunion within the church leadership has met with charges of heresy and, possibly, excommunication, as the RCC claims to have the power to send their disobedient to eternal damnation.
Are the  Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites, Benedictines, etc. identical in their beliefs?  Didn't the Eastern Orthodox Church split off from the Roman Catholic Church over a question of Christology?
The EO has a patriarch. The RCC has a pope.  The two have very similar beliefs, but their beliefs differed enough to account for a schism.  

There are awesome Catholics out there, and a great, great many of them.  They are free to choose their faith  as are members of Protestant denominations.   But when you speak of the RCC, you speak of an entity than can err as easily as any Protestant Church.
As far as my historical references above.. I can't say that a Protestant Church (so empowered) would have done either any better, or any worse.  Even churches are, in part, a product of their times.  But the Protestant Church (churches) were not there.. so we cannot compare.  
I, at least, can see that my own church isn't perfect.. and I'll leave it at that.

You obviously don't know much about Catholic Church history.

Try looking up the Cathars to find out what they did and believed.  Your ignorance is leading you astray.  There is no EO patriarach, there are many patriarachs.  The Eastern Churches recognized the pope as the leader of the Church for hundreds of years before politics led some of them to leave the fold.

Much of English speaking history was written by radical protestants from England like Foxe who had no compunction about lying about the Catholic Church.

Catholics are sinners, but the Catholic Church is perfect given that it was created and is guided by God.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:05:52

#1)  You obviously don't know much about Catholic Church history.

#2)  The Eastern Churches recognized the pope as the leader of the Church for hundreds of years before politics led some of them to leave the fold.

#3)  the Catholic Church is perfect given that it was created and is guided by God.

This is addressed to everyone but Chester.  Friends, look at the above, just look at what he is saying!  To him, the pope and his church is his god.  Trying to make sense to brother Chester is like farting in the wind, it will just come back and stink in your face.

Why bother?  You might as well try to convince a cardboard box to think and dance, just ain't gonna happen.  He will continue to insult you (i.e. #1).  Take a look at #3, he says that the catholic church is "perfect", heck, that is a big clue that something is not right, you all are too smart for that!  Thankful Dad said it best...."whatever".  We must pray for brother Chester that he will get healed of this obsessive idea that the catholic church and the pope are god like, there is hope for him, but trying to make sense on this forum with this fellow.....again, poot in the wind my friends...poot in the wind.....

ya'll have a nice day!

Quote from: Wednesday on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:32:03

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:05:52

#1)  You obviously don't know much about Catholic Church history.

#2)  The Eastern Churches recognized the pope as the leader of the Church for hundreds of years before politics led some of them to leave the fold.

#3)  the Catholic Church is perfect given that it was created and is guided by God.

This is addressed to everyone but Chester.  Friends, look at the above, just look at what he is saying!  To him, the pope and his church is his god.  

Give it up, liar.

The Church is the Body of Christ.

You take it up with Jesus if you want to reject his body.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:05:52

Quote from: Kindle on Fri May 13, 2011 - 13:43:29

Chestertonrules, I see what you are claiming.  But we need only to look at the history of the RCC to see just how this so called unity has been won.  I do not see how these things can be the Fruit of a Holy Spirit lead Church as you say.

The Catholic Church is an entity that had squashed all rivals prior to the reformation. The Christian sect known as the Cathars was put to the sword as late as the 1200s.  Politics and religion combined produced many wars. Disunion within the church leadership has met with charges of heresy and, possibly, excommunication, as the RCC claims to have the power to send their disobedient to eternal damnation.
Are the  Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites, Benedictines, etc. identical in their beliefs?  Didn't the Eastern Orthodox Church split off from the Roman Catholic Church over a question of Christology?
The EO has a patriarch. The RCC has a pope.  The two have very similar beliefs, but their beliefs differed enough to account for a schism.  

There are awesome Catholics out there, and a great, great many of them.  They are free to choose their faith  as are members of Protestant denominations.   But when you speak of the RCC, you speak of an entity than can err as easily as any Protestant Church.
As far as my historical references above.. I can't say that a Protestant Church (so empowered) would have done either any better, or any worse.  Even churches are, in part, a product of their times.  But the Protestant Church (churches) were not there.. so we cannot compare.  
I, at least, can see that my own church isn't perfect.. and I'll leave it at that.

Catholics are sinners, but the Catholic Church is perfect given that it was created and is guided by God.

Catholics may be sinners, but born again Christians are not, in the eyes of God. The Catholic church is far from perfect. In fact, I don't even refer to it as a church but it is another religion.

There is no perfect church in the world, but to tell you the truth, my particular body of Christ is pretty close to perfect. why is that? Our leaders seek God first in all things, and we follow His lead, not anyone else's.

The Church of Jesus Christ is not the RCC, as much as you wish it was---it is made up of born again Christians---something you continually ignore the truth of.

Dear Chester......








Whatever....

Chestertonrules,

You are correct concerning the Patriarch.  I had not bothered to look into the EO leadership and made the presumption that the Patriarch of the EO was a single individual. The history makes more sense to me upon hearing that the EO is governed by a council.  And yes, I did know that the EO looked to the pope as their leader at one time.  The point is that they did leave the fold over a difference in theology.

As far as the Cathars...  If you would like to provide me a link to an alternate version of that history, I would be happy to read that perspective.   My understanding right now is that they did nothing except to not follow the RCC's theology. They grew in numbers sufficient to present a threat. In many ways, they followed Christ's teachings more closely than did the RCC, IMO. But yes, there were aspect of gnosticsm in their beliefs.  That I know.
Again, I'm not opposed to reading another account.

And no, I am no scholar of Catholic Church history.  I've done enough reading, however, to know that all humans make mistakes. Even religious leaders.  

The Church was indeed founded and guided by God.  You  and I are both blessed to be among its members. I consider the church to be as much a process as an entity.. one that is ongoing.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:05:52

Catholics are sinners, but the Catholic Church is perfect given that it was created and is guided by God.

As an RC I must say that the above statement does not ring true .

You cannot dissociate members of the Church from the Church . It is the members united to Christ who make up the Church .

That it was created and is guided by God does not make the Church perfect .
I was created and am guided by God but that does not make me perfect . I wish it did .

The saints were created and guided by God , but not one of them would claim to be perfect .

Not until the final consummation of things when Christ returns in glory will the Church become perfect . Until that time it will remain imperfect since its members are imperfect .

Quote from: Kindle on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:52:03

Chestertonrules,

You are correct concerning the Patriarch.  I had not bothered to look into the EO leadership and made the presumption that the Patriarch of the EO was a single individual. The history makes more sense to me upon hearing that the EO is governed by a council.  And yes, I did know that the EO looked to the pope as their leader at one time.  The point is that they did leave the fold over a difference in theology.

As far as the Cathars...  If you would like to provide me a link to an alternate version of that history, I would be happy to read that perspective.   My understanding right now is that they did nothing except to not follow the RCC's theology. They grew in numbers sufficient to present a threat. In many ways, they followed Christ's teachings more closely than did the RCC, IMO. But yes, there were aspect of gnosticsm in their beliefs.  That I know.
Again, I'm not opposed to reading another account.

And no, I am no scholar of Catholic Church history.  I've done enough reading, however, to know that all humans make mistakes. Even religious leaders.  

The Church was indeed founded and guided by God.  You  and I are both blessed to be among its members. I consider the church to be as much a process as an entity.. one that is ongoing.

I appreciate your posts and attitude!

Here's a brief statement on the Cathars and a longer article regarding their violent practices is included at the link:


...They thought sex was acceptable as long as it didn't involve procreation, which trapped more souls in material bodies. Even contraception, abortion and homosexual love ("gaiol") were acceptable to many. If you lived life to the full, there was always the Consolamentum (like baptism and redemption combined) before death to absolve all your sins and free your soul into the purifying fire. However, if you did not undergo the Consolamentum, you'd be back in this world, stuck in another physical body.


Catharist principles
The essential characteristic of the Catharist faith was Dualism, i.e. the belief in a good and an evil principle, of whom the former created the invisible and spiritual universe, while the latter was the author of the material world. A difference of opinion existed as to the nature of these two principles. Their perfect equality was admitted by the absolute Dualists, whereas in the mitigated form of Dualism the beneficent principle alone was eternal and supreme, the evil principle being inferior to him and a mere creature. In the East and the West these two different interpretations of Dualism coexisted. The Bogomili in the East professed it in its modified form. In the West, the Albanenses in Italy and almost all the non-Italian Cathari were rigid Dualists; mitigated Dualism prevailed among the Bagnolenses and Concorrezenses, who were more numerous than the Albanenses in Italy, though but little represented abroad. (For an exposition of absolute Dualism, see ALBIGENSES; on the mitigated form, see BOGOMILI.) Not only were the Albanenses and Concorrezenses opposed to each other to the extent of indulging in mutual condemnations, but there was division among the Albanenses themselves. John of Lugio, or of Bergamo, introduced innovations into the traditional doctrinal system, which was defended by his (perhaps only spiritual) father Balasinansa, or Belesmagra, the Catharist Bishop of Verona. Towards the year 1230 John became the leader of a new party composed of the younger and more independent elements of the sect. In the two coeternal principles of good and evil he sees two contending gods, who limit each other's liberty. Infinite perfection is no attribute even of the good principle; owing to the genius of evil infused into all its creatures, it can produce only imperfect beings. The Bagnolenses and Concorrezenses also differed on some doctrinal questions. The former maintained that human souls were created and had sinned before the world was formed. The Concorrezenses taught that Satan infused into the body of the first man, his handiwork, an angel who had been guilty of a slight transgression and from whom, by way of generation, all human souls are derived. The moral system, organization, and liturgy of absolute and mitigated Dualism exhibit no substantial difference, and have been treated in the article on the Albigenses.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03435a.htm

Quote from: Paulus on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:56:18

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:05:52

Catholics are sinners, but the Catholic Church is perfect given that it was created and is guided by God.

As an RC I must say that the above statement does not ring true .

You cannot dissociate members of the Church from the Church . It is the members united to Christ who make up the Church .

That it was created and is guided by God does not make the Church perfect .
I was created and am guided by God but that does not make me perfect . I wish it did .

The saints were created and guided by God , but not one of them would claim to be perfect .

Not until the final consummation of things when Christ returns in glory will the Church become perfect . Until that time it will remain imperfect since its members are imperfect .

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all Truth.

Do you believe that the Catholic Church doctrines include false teaching?

Quote from: Paulus on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:56:18

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri May 13, 2011 - 14:05:52

Catholics are sinners, but the Catholic Church is perfect given that it was created and is guided by God.

As an RC I must say that the above statement does not ring true .

You cannot dissociate members of the Church from the Church . It is the members united to Christ who make up the Church .

That it was created and is guided by God does not make the Church perfect .
I was created and am guided by God but that does not make me perfect . I wish it did .

The saints were created and guided by God , but not one of them would claim to be perfect .

Not until the final consummation of things when Christ returns in glory will the Church become perfect . Until that time it will remain imperfect since its members are imperfect .

The members of the Church (which is us) are not perfect.  But the Church (the mystical Body of Christ) is perfect because Christ has no sin.  Christ's body was born perfect without sin.  The members are part of the mystical body of Christ because we are one.  But the members do have sin.  I hope you understand that.  Sometimes, it can be confusing like the Holy Trinity.