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The Beast Revelation

This letter is dedicated to all Christians.

The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.

The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals. Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this? That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions. Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth? Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.

This narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible..

Now, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you will have eliminated some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet, which is misleading and puts a stumbling block square in the road to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.

Now to dissect Revelation 13. As I have already stated, Revelation 13 is a word substitution parable. The seven heads are seven mountains and the ten horns are ten kings. Ok, we know from this description that the beast as described is a group of possibly ten countries. This brings me to another point. There are three definitions for the beast in Revelation 13. The first is a group of countries rising up out of the sea. The second is in Rev.13:11 and is a beast with two horns (kings). Remember horns are kings as per Rev. 17. Finally, there is a beast who is identified by the number 666. It is this last beast that causes all to recieve a mark and that no man can buy and sell save he who has the mark, his number, or his name. There are three items here. Nowhere does it say that the mark is the number 666. This might have been a good guess 20 yrs. ago , but it is pretty hard to believe. Imagine people running around with a mark of 666 on their right hands. It sounds like a cartoon, but this is what the prophecy teachers want you to believe. Ok, another problem that sounds like a cartoon is the interpretation of the word "all." They want you to believe that no man could buy or sell if they did not worship the beast and take his mark. Interpreting the word "all" to mean everyone in the world. This is not the case. For one, we know that the beast is made up of only possibly ten countries. Everyone in this world lives in roughly 190 countries. I don't think we could possibly mean everyone. How about, all of those people concerned with the mark. Also, how do you cause all people concerned to receive a mark, and why? The most obvious way to mark everyone is at the voting booth. All people, rich and poor, small and great, or free and bond are potential voters. So, Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, and in the process all voters received an indelible ink mark on their right hands. This mark was to prevent double voting and corruption in the election. Ok, we have a mark. It is not 666. At this point he fits the part, but not completely. Still, there is no ready identification of 666 concerning him. This election was in January 2005.

Back to Rev.13. We have seven mountains and ten kings. Prophecy teachers want us to believe that a city with seven mountains is the seat of the antichrist and he rules with ten nations. Their logical conclusion was the Europe Union and the Vatican. This started the revived Roman empire theory. This theory has been around since the reformation. It is hard to believe this charade has gone on so long. Teachers are still preaching the Revived Roman Empire. This theory had some validity before the twentieth century and now has to be eliminated. None of these teachers could have predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire and its division into so many separate sovereign nations. Back to our word substitution. There is an interesting item here concerning the word mountains in scripture. The word mountains can have two meanings. It can be either a mountain range, or a nation. This is the hardest part of this whole exercise, trying to figure out what mountains are describing. Teachers will have you believe it is a city with seven mountains. In actual fact, mountains here are referring to nations. This also pertains to the head wound. The wound was not a literal head wound at all, but was a nation that was wounded. The beast's head or nation was wounded and was healed. This is the Palestinian Authority after the beginning of the Oslo Accords. The land that Israel possessed was now being given back to the Palestinians and the beast's nation is being healed. Ok, so now I have seven nations and ten kings, Rev.13:1. Why do I have three more kings than nations? It seems I have a king for each nation, but three left over. In Daniel in says the beast subdued three kings. These three kings don't necessarily have to be from different countries. It seems so, but is not expressly mentioned. It is another parable. The three kings who were subdued by the beast were Israeli Prime Ministers. These three Prime Ministers all served during the seven years of the Oslo Accords and were voted out of office because of terror perpetrated during Yasser Arafat's rule. Now, I am down to seven nations. These seven nations will wage war. I can easily see seven nations that will wage war here very soon; Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iran and the Palestinian Authority or Iraq, and there opponent Israel. This is exactly the same beast that is presented in Rev.17, just in a slightly different appearance. In Rev. 17, five nations attacked Israel and five fell, Israel was and the one that was, and the one that came later was the Palestinian Authority. That was a picture of Israel's war of Independence. Literally, this was the beast being born. The war in 1967 is the beast rising up out of the sea in Rev.13:1. It was the unresolved issues of this conflict that resulted in the Oslo Accords of 1993. This seven year peace treaty was confirmed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat.

Now, there is another beast in Rev.13:11. This beast has two horns or kings. This is a picture of the Palestinian Authority after the elections of January 2006. This is when Hamas ran in the elections and won a majority in parliament. Now the P.A. was a country with two kings. Abbas was the President and Ismail Haniyeh was the Prime Minister. Here is where the problem with money came about. Western Nations did not want to donate money to a known terrorist organization so looked for a way they could still fund Abbas's P.A., but not let any money get to Hamas. This is when the number 666 identified an individual. The temporary international mechanism was adopted on June 16, 2006. This program allowed Western Nations to donate funds directly to Abbas, while bypassing Hamas. If you were a member of Fatah, or on Abbas's payroll you got paid. This is how the people were allowed to buy and sell. They received salaries, whereas before the mechanism, they had no way of getting paid from the Govenment. Hamas did not recieve salaries. Also, Hamas did not recieve the mark of the beast. They boycotted the elections for President in Jan. 2005.
It is more obvious who is being talked about the closer you get to the end.

In conclusion, to my three beast definitions. Mahmoud Abbas fits all three definitions. He was a member of the P.A. when it was formed. He took over from Yasser Arafat after his death. He was one of the two kings of the second beast in Rev.13:11. Lastly, he is the one identified by the number 666, which could have been Arafat had he lived.

Now, concerning the the false prophet. The following four verses below all refer to the false prophet, Ishmail Haniyeh.

Rev.13:11- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the Earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev.13:12- And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev.13:13- "And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the Earth in the sight of men".
Rev.13:15- And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast, should be killed.

Hamas exercised all the power of the first beast (Abbas's P.A.) because they were now an equal partner in the Government. Also, the leader of Hamas caused them to worship or honor the first beast because Hamas would not honor the first beast. The first beast was the PA without Hamas as a member. The image of the beast is what the Government of Mahmoud Abbas represented. Verse 12 does not mention the image yet, we are just informed that the false prophet caused them to worship the first beast. Verse 14 and 15 gives the details of how that worshipping or honor was to commence. An image was created of the first beast that he (the false prophet) caused to be honored. This image of the beast is three items; the recognition of Israel, the honoring of all prior Palestinian agreements, and a renunciation of terror.

The last question I think that needs addressed is how do you know the timing is right? Meaning, there have been so many translations, how do you know that this one is correct? This is a question I always get asked. The answer, in my mind, is sort of a mix between two different prophecies. The first is the seven day prophecy as recorded in Genesis. It is a similtude between this and the amount of recorded time that has already happened on Earth. In the book of Peter, God says one day to him is as a thousand years. If that idea is applied to the Genesis creation, everyday that God created something one thousand years passed. Finally, on the last day he rested from his work, and his rest was one thousand years or one of God's days. This was one full week or 7000 years. After God's rest he started his work again, and he created Adam. Starting with Adam, it was approximately 4000 years to the time of Christ. Also, we know that Christ was here roughly 2000 years ago. If God was to be consistant with his one week schedule, then we could expect his day of rest to fall somewhere after the year two thousand. 4000 plus 2000 is six days and on the seventh he rested for one thousand years. This is not an exact estimate, but it can put you in the right ballpark when searching for the correct timing of Revelation. This is the estimate. The next item is more exact. Daniel 9:27 says that he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Many in Hebrew is Rab. This was a covenant confirmed with Yitzhak Rabin. It was the beginning of land for peace, or the Oslo Accords. When you see this agreement happen you should be aware that this prophecy will last seven years. There is only one problem with this item. Prior to it happening, everyone thought that the end of the seventh year of the agreement God would return and begin his rest. Well, that did not  happen. The reason was a logical misinterpretation. It just mentions that this agreement must occur along with the prophecies mentioned, not that they would all happen and end on the last day of the seventh year. This has thrown everyone watching offtrack for a time. Although, this was not such a terrible mistake if the watcher could see the right answer and get his, or her perspective back. When you have these two items coinciding at the expected time, then you know Revelation can be interpreted with accuracy. The events should start happening, as they have, as I have recorded in this letter.

May God bless all who read this letter.

Michae1

Michael, Your article is way to long, and covers to much ground to respond to. Question, are these your thoughts, or are you quoting the thoughts of another person?

But I do have one question for you.

You wrote, "This would further the idea that he (Satan) is now in heaven."

Phil asks, "What heaven are you speaking of? Is it the heavens above the earth, or before the throne of God? Also how did you Scripturally come to that conclusion?"

Phil LaSpino

Quote from: LaSpino3 on Sat Jul 16, 2011 - 06:18:33
Michael, Your article is way to long, and covers to much ground to respond to. Question, are these your thoughts, or are you quoting the thoughts of another person?

But I do have one question for you.

You wrote, "This would further the idea that he (Satan) is now in heaven."

Phil asks, "What heaven are you speaking of? Is it the heavens above the earth, or before the throne of God? Also how did you Scripturally come to that conclusion?"

Phil LaSpino

I wrote this letter on July 6th. It may be too long, but it had to be in order to cover the material. I can't be concerned with whether a person has enough patience to read for five minutes. I have to be concerned with conveying an accurate message.
Concerning your question, the answer is in the writing. Satan still has access to God, as he did in the days of Job. Satan's fall from grace should not be confused with his being cast out of heaven in Revelation 12. These are two separate incidents. Revelation 12 is the second time he will fall, and this is literal. Once he is cast to the Earth, he will no longer have access to the throne of God. This will be for three and a half years. Once God returns to the Earth, Satan will be bound for a thousand years.

Michael, I meant no disrespect when I asked if you wrote the article. Also, I find it more advantages to post long articles in shorter parts. Just make the readers aware of it.

I have another question, "When you say Satan still has access in heaven, I assume you mean before the throne of God, is that correct?

But if I am to understand the text, and context of Rev.12, is there any way that Satan and his demons were cast forever out of heaven when Christ assended into heaven, Acts 1:9? Had He not already defeated Satan (death and hell) at the cross? Christ's kingdom was already established in heaven, see the Lord's prayer, but not on earth, making me understand that Satan was cast out. 

Phil LaSpino

Quote from: LaSpino3 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 - 16:48:56
I have another question, "When you say Satan still has access in heaven, I assume you mean before the throne of God, is that correct?

But if I am to understand the text, and context of Rev.12, is there any way that Satan and his demons were cast forever out of heaven when Christ assended into heaven, Acts 1:9? Had He not already defeated Satan (death and hell) at the cross? Christ's kingdom was already established in heaven, see the Lord's prayer, but not on earth, making me understand that Satan was cast out. 

Phil LaSpino

   Yes, that is correct. He has a way of communicating with God. Read the verses I have pasted here. It describes a place in full view of those in heaven. This is where Satan is. He has access to the Earth, and this place which is described.
_________________________
This is Luke 16:

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
_____________________________

Satan has not been cast out yet, but he is going to be very soon. Rev. 12 is when this happens...Christ defeated Satan because of the cross. You may look at that as happening at that exact moment. Symbolically, that is what happened.  Literally, it doesn't happen until after the millennium when New Jerusalem comes to the Earth and God communes with his people forever...Michae1

I don't mean to be hard to get along with, but it seems that your saying two different things to me.

First you said Satan is still in heaven: Now in your last post you mention Luke 16.
Christ is telling the story, some calling it a parable. As you said, its about a rich man and a beggar. Jesus tells it before he dies, so He, and the Jews are still under law, and not under grace, or the new covenant = (no church yet.)

Now Paradise, in the Greek, in the later Jewish usage and in the N.T. is put for the abode, or place of the condemned, as well as the blessed after death.
 
There is the inferior paradise in Hades, as well as the region of the blessed. Luke 23:43, Jesus tell the thief on the cross, "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise," this would be the place of the blessed, or as Luke describes it, "Abraham's bosom."
   
Then Scriptures speak of the paradise of God, the celestial paradise, where the spirits of the just, the saved dwell with God, as in,

2 Cor.12:4, "He was caught up into paradise." in verse 3, "Whether in the body, or out of the body.)"

Rev.2:7, "In the midst of the paradise of God," where the imagery is drawn from Gen.2:8, "The LORD planted a garden eastward in Eden."

We also know the new city Jerusalem is being prepared for us in heaven, and I am sure Satan is not there.

Speaking of Satan as being cast down from heaven,

Rev.12:12, "The devil is come down unto you," compare with ver.9, "And the great dragon was cast out, --- he was cast out to the earth, compare also with ver.10, "A loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser (Satan) of our brethren is cast down," compare with ver.11, "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony."

So if I am reading this correctly, Satan was cast out by the blood of the Lamb. With this thought in mind, once Jesus was taken into heaven, the heavens were cleansed. Satan therefore cannot be in heaven, but on the earth. Now if you mean the atmosphere above the earth, I have no problem with that, for he is the prince of the power of the air. After he is cast out, it is said he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child, the woman being Israel, note verse 1; 12 stars = 12 tribes. 

Cast down means to throw, to cast, with a greater or less degree of force as modified by the context; A transitive verb that expresses an action that passes from the agent to the object. Also sequel to follow, dative, a term applied to the case of nouns which usually follows verbs that express giving, or some act directed to an object.

So in your estimation, is Satan with the those in the paradise? in hell waiting for judgement? in the paradise where the beggar is seen in Abraham's bosom? or in our atmosphere, and earth? or in the throne room of God?

I believe he has already having been cast to the earth, persecuting both Jews, and the church?

Phil LaSpino

Rev 12:10   And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

I do believe that Satan still has access to God's throne in order to "accuse" us before the Lord.  Like he did with Job.

The point being, that once he is cast down, he will no longer be able to do that.  I believe this takes place about the same time as the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god."  I believe that Satan will enter into the Antichrist's physical body as he did with Judas.

Blessings

Quote from: Joyfullee on Mon Jul 18, 2011 - 13:48:45
Rev 12:10   And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

 I do believe that Satan still has access to God's throne in order to "accuse" us before the Lord.  Like he did with Job.

The point being, that once he is cast down, he will no longer be able to do that.  I believe this takes place about the same time as the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god."  I believe that Satan will enter into the Antichrist's physical body as he did with Judas.

Blessings

   Thank you very much Joyfullee.

This part is to LaSpino3. Instead of trying find a contradiction in every sentence, use common sense and apply what has been given. The story of Job describes how Satan can operate. He speaks with God, he has access to the Earth, and he can affect peoples lives. Now, read Rev. 12. He is cast out of heaven. What part of that do you not accept? I'm not going to get into all the different ideas that you have as to this part of heaven, or that part of hell, because it really doesn't matter. The abilities that Satan displays are in Job. Since I have never been to heaven or hell, or at least I have no recollection of such, I can only speak as to Satan's abilities. I believe this argument that you are trying to promote has to do with the validity of Revelation itself, or the timing of it. People who follow this course of questioning to my knowledge are preterists. I am not a preterist. Also, if you don't accept my article in these points about Satan, then read the other parts that you can accept. Michae1

Quote from: michael777 on Mon Jul 18, 2011 - 14:27:03

Quote from: Joyfullee on Mon Jul 18, 2011 - 13:48:45
Rev 12:10   And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

 I do believe that Satan still has access to God's throne in order to "accuse" us before the Lord.  Like he did with Job.

The point being, that once he is cast down, he will no longer be able to do that.  I believe this takes place about the same time as the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god."  I believe that Satan will enter into the Antichrist's physical body as he did with Judas.

Blessings

   Thank you very much Joyfullee.

This part is to LaSpino3. Instead of trying find a contradiction in every sentence, use common sense and apply what has been given. The story of Job describes how Satan can operate. He speaks with God, he has access to the Earth, and he can affect peoples lives. Now, read Rev. 12. He is cast out of heaven. What part of that do you not accept? I'm not going to get into all the different ideas that you have as to this part of heaven, or that part of hell, because it really doesn't matter. The abilities that Satan displays are in Job. Since I have never been to heaven or hell, or at least I have no recollection of such, I can only speak as to Satan's abilities. I believe this argument that you are trying to promote has to do with the validity of Revelation itself, or the timing of it. People who follow this course of questioning to my knowledge are preterists. I am not a preterist. Also, if you don't accept my article in these points about Satan, then read the other parts that you can accept. Michae1

You're welcome Michael.

I'd like to ask you what you think it's going to be like or how will it be different or effect born-again, Holy Spirit filled believers during that time, once Satan no longer has access to God to accuse believers?  That is of course if you believe we'll still be here, as in post-trib rapture.  Have you ever given this any thought?

Blessings 

Quote from: Joyfullee link=topic=55028.msg918141#msg918141
You're welcome Michael.

I'd like to ask you what you think it's going to be like or how will it be different or effect born-again, Holy Spirit filled believers during that time, once Satan no longer has access to God to accuse believers?  That is of course if you believe we'll still be here, as in post-trib rapture.  Have you ever given this any thought?

Blessings  

  Yes, I have given it some thought. It is in the letter in a vague manner. Satan will be cast out of heaven after the rapture. This is why he cannot be revealed to Christians. Christians will be in heaven. Satan will be revealed to those on Earth, but he will not call himself Satan. Most likely, he will be the Muslim Mahdi, and they will worship him. But, Christians have nothing to fear, so I say bring it on. I need some excitement...

Michael, you wrote, "read Rev. 12. He is cast out of heaven. What part of that do you not accept?"

Phil replies, "Its your time frame I disagree with. What does Satan in Job have to do with anything after Christ went into heaven, 1400 years later? I see your not very interested in details. I can tell you this for sure, Satan is not in the throne room of God at this present time, nor will he ever be again. There are two things we do know about him. He is called the prince of the power of the air, and he moves too and fro in the earth.

Air, as that which we breathe, the atmosphere, as opposed to the higher, purer region.  1 Thes.4:17, "To meet the Lord in the air." 1 Cor.14:9, "Ye shall speak into the air." To beat the air. 1 Cor.9:26. To speak or act in vain. In Eph.2:2, Satan is called, "The prince of the power of the air," as prince of the spirits of the air, as those who dwell in the air or have power over it, according to the later Jewish belief.

Thanks for the discussion.

Phil LaSpino

Quote from: LaSpino3 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 19:15:45
Michael, you wrote, "read Rev. 12. He is cast out of heaven. What part of that do you not accept?"

Phil replies, "Its your time frame I disagree with. What does Satan in Job have to do with anything after Christ went into heaven, 1400 years later? I see your not very interested in details. I can tell you this for sure, Satan is not in the throne room of God at this present time, nor will he ever be again. There are two things we do know about him. He is called the prince of the power of the air, and he moves too and fro in the earth.

Air, as that which we breathe, the atmosphere, as opposed to the higher, purer region.  1 Thes.4:17, "To meet the Lord in the air." 1 Cor.14:9, "Ye shall speak into the air." To beat the air. 1 Cor.9:26. To speak or act in vain. In Eph.2:2, Satan is called, "The prince of the power of the air," as prince of the spirits of the air, as those who dwell in the air or have power over it, according to the later Jewish belief.

Thanks for the discussion.

Phil LaSpino

Rev. 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Question:  Is this not speaking of the end times?

Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

7  And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?  Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1Pe 5:8   Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:.."


Question:  Where does it say in God's Word that there came a time after the death of Jesus that Satan no longer had access to God to "accuse the brethren?

We know Satan still roams the earth looking for whom he may devour.

We know he is the prince of principalities and of the air.

It states in Rev. that Satan is cast down, in my understanding at about the time the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god."

Blessings

   Joyfullee, I sure could have used your help these past few years. Although, I'm sure you've had some work of your own. It's evident in your words. For my part, I hear the questions and I know the answer is there, but I usually do not have the time to get very deep into the conversation. I am in many, many forums, and I always have much unfinished work. So, I sit down and write these letters. It's sort of a collection of answers to questions that have been asked me, and I have researched over the years. It took about ten hours to write the first post, and I already knew the information. Sometimes, I know the answer is there, but I have to work for it. My memory is starting to forget I need it, I guess.
Thank you for your help, God knows I need it. Michae1

Quote from: michael777 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 22:00:12

   Joyfullee, I sure could have used your help these past few years. Although, I'm sure you've had some work of your own. It's evident in your words. For my part, I hear the questions and I know the answer is there, but I usually do not have the time to get very deep into the conversation. I am in many, many forums, and I always have much unfinished work. So, I sit down and write these letters. It's sort of a collection of answers to questions that have been asked me, and I have researched over the years. It took about ten hours to write the first post, and I already knew the information. Sometimes, I know the answer is there, but I have to work for it. My memory is starting to forget I need it, I guess.
Thank you for your help, God knows I need it. Michae1

I hear ya!   

You're welcome Michael.

PM me any time as I'm always HAPPY to help.

Blessings

Quote from: michael777 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 15:44:17

Quote from: Joyfullee link=topic=55028.msg918141#msg918141
You're welcome Michael.

I'd like to ask you what you think it's going to be like or how will it be different or effect born-again, Holy Spirit filled believers during that time, once Satan no longer has access to God to accuse believers?  That is of course if you believe we'll still be here, as in post-trib rapture.  Have you ever given this any thought?

Blessings  

  Yes, I have given it some thought. It is in the letter in a vague manner. Satan will be cast out of heaven after the rapture. This is why he cannot be revealed to Christians. Christians will be in heaven. Satan will be revealed to those on Earth, but he will not call himself Satan. Most likely, he will be the Muslim Mahdi, and they will worship him. But, Christians have nothing to fear, so I say bring it on. I need some excitement...

Satan isn't in Heaven. Wickedness has no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. He has been cast down long ago in pre-history.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:02:07

Quote from: michael777 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 15:44:17

Quote from: Joyfullee link=topic=55028.msg918141#msg918141
You're welcome Michael.

I'd like to ask you what you think it's going to be like or how will it be different or effect born-again, Holy Spirit filled believers during that time, once Satan no longer has access to God to accuse believers?  That is of course if you believe we'll still be here, as in post-trib rapture.  Have you ever given this any thought?

Blessings  

  Yes, I have given it some thought. It is in the letter in a vague manner. Satan will be cast out of heaven after the rapture. This is why he cannot be revealed to Christians. Christians will be in heaven. Satan will be revealed to those on Earth, but he will not call himself Satan. Most likely, he will be the Muslim Mahdi, and they will worship him. But, Christians have nothing to fear, so I say bring it on. I need some excitement...

Satan isn't in Heaven. Wickedness has no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. He has been cast down long ago in pre-history.

Rev. tells us that Satan is cast down and no longer able to accuse believers.  I believe that passage is speaking of endtimes events.

There is a difference between "being" in heaven, as in residence and having access to God.

Blessings LS

Rev. 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Blessings

Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.

We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:02:07

Satan isn't in Heaven. Wickedness has no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. He has been cast down long ago in pre-history.

Does this fit your "Parenthesis" doctrines of Revelation Chapter Seven?

Since you insist that this chapter twelve points back to Jesus' birth as the "Man Child," you now go a step further and proclaim Satan, the god of this world who is also the prince of the power of the air is buried and his power gone before creation?

Think of this. Revelation 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

If Satan was in the place of power of deceiving the whole world you describe before history, how does he deceive anyone; there was no one before Adam for him to deceive?

No sister, today he accuses us before God day and night in Revelation 12:10, "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Job 1:8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant? (Maybe Lively Stone)  Doth (Lively Stone) fear God for nought? Do you really think this same scenario is not occurring today concerning us? 

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:29:02
Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.

We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.

My point has been, Satan does go before God to accuse us still, just as he did in Job.

Job 1:6  Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Blessings

Quote from: Joyfullee on Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 10:58:55

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:29:02
Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.

We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.

My point has been, Satan does go before God to accuse us still, just as he did in Job.

Job 1:6  Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Blessings

Where Satan is doesn't stop him from trying to accuse us. He is a spiritual being and not limited by time or space. His banishment from Heaven doesn't stop him from doing what he does well.

Let's just say for a moment that Satan is a man walking on this earth, everyone has been marked. God is also alive and well on this earth enveloping his people with his seal. Were does that put us in Revelation?

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 11:20:30

Quote from: Joyfullee on Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 10:58:55

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:29:02
Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.

We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.

My point has been, Satan does go before God to accuse us still, just as he did in Job.

Job 1:6  Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Blessings

Where Satan is doesn't stop him from trying to accuse us. He is a spiritual being and not limited by time or space. His banishment from Heaven doesn't stop him from doing what he does well.

Well, God's Word says: to present themselves before the Lord.

That's good enough for me.

Blessings

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 11:20:30

Quote from: Joyfullee on Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 10:58:55

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:29:02
Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.

We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.

My point has been, Satan does go before God to accuse us still, just as he did in Job.

Job 1:6  Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Blessings

Where Satan is doesn't stop him from trying to accuse us. He is a spiritual being and not limited by time or space. His banishment from Heaven doesn't stop him from doing what he does well.

Rev. 12

6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (3 1/2 years)

Matt. 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  (21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

7  And there was war in heaven:  Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kindgom of our God, and the power of his Christ:  for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!  for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he hath but a short time.



Seems very clear to me.  All of this happens at the beginning of the great tribulation when the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god," which lasts for 3 1/2 years.

Blessings

Satan isn't omni-present is he? How DID Satan approach God in order to ask to test Job?

Quote from: Joyfullee on Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 12:32:45

Seems very clear to me.  All of this happens at the beginning of the great tribulation when the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god," which lasts for 3 1/2 years.

Blessings

   That's a pretty good assessment. I think if you can be pretty good, then bullseye is not far behind.

Quote from: Jaime on Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 12:35:06
Satan isn't omni-present is he? How DID Satan approach God in order to ask to test Job?

By going to and fro in the Earth.

I don't think satan has a throne, he zips here and there. In fact Beelzebub means Lord of the flies.

A fly is constantly flying here and there.

Does anyone agree with this prophecy?

There's apparently a huge misunderstanding some brethren here have about the heavenly and the earthly, which can make the event of Satan's casting down to earth in Rev.12:7 forward difficult.

In 1 Cor.15 and 2 Cor.5, Apostle Paul gave us some detailed descriptions about the existence of the "spiritual body" vs. our flesh body. He even made a distinction with the phrases "image of the earthy" vs. the "image of the heavenly" (1 Cor.15:49).

I use the term 'dimensions of existence' to explain this difference according to Scripture. This earthly realm we live in is a material dimension. But the heavenly is a different dimension, one of spirit. It's very important to not confuse the two.

What is Apostle Paul's "image of the earthy"? It's flesh born man.

Then what is Apostle Paul's "image of the heavenly"? It's the "spiritual body" he also taught there in 1 Cor.15:44, an image likeness body appearance in the heavenly dimension, a body like Christ's resurrected body that could suddenly appear and disappear among His disciples after His resurrection.

In John 4:24, Apostle John said, "God is a Spirit", and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. One of the reasons why the 1611 KJV Bible is still the best English translation is because the difference between flesh and spirit is clearly distinguished from each other, while more modern translations get away from that concept.

Rev 12:7-8
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
KJV

What does that mean, "neither was their place found any more in heaven" after that war with Archangel Michael?

Satan and his angels do not have flesh bodies, nor is it anywhere written that they will. Yet per several Bible Scriptures we are shown angels appearing to flesh man or women, with their appearance having the likeness of young men (Gen.19 for example).

Those angels did not take on flesh bodies to appear here on earth in our material dimension. Nor did our Lord Jesus take on another flesh body to appear to His disciples in Acts in a closed off room after His resurrection.

When Apostle John was "in the Spirit" on The Lord's Day, and likewise with what God gave His OT prophets to see by vision, then what device did God use to communicate that to them? Flesh eyes, fleshy brain? No, spiritual eyes and mind, because God said early on in Gen.6 that Adam also is flesh, meaning flesh and what else? Spirit. We each have a spirit inside our flesh body, and that's how we worship God Who is a Spirit. It is also how He works through us by The Holy Spirit, if you're one of His.

Yet Satan is not... God, nor even a little god. He is a cherub per Ezek.28, a created angelic being with an image likeness like we have, that of man's image, which originates from God's Own Image in the heavenly.

Thus Satan's place in Heaven right now is in a place of separation from where God is, but like someone pointed to the Book of Job, Satan with his angels are still able to appear before God's Throne in Heaven, and give a report, accusing us. That's his "place" in Heaven right now, which is pointing to the heavenly dimension of spirit.

And there are only 2 different dimensions pointed out in God's Word, this earthy and the heavenly.

So when Satan and his angels are cast out per that Rev.12 Scripture, where ELSE do they have that they can go to? The answer: THIS earthy dimension we live in, our material dimension here on earth, is the only place Satan and his angels can be cast out of heaven to after that war in heaven.


Mark 16:5-6
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
KJV

Quote from: michael777 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46
The Beast Revelation

This letter is dedicated to all Christians.

The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.

The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals.

Daniel defines the term "beast", and he does it in the same context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream, that even includes 3 of the very same figures. So let's let scripture define and explain it:

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth.....

There is considerable agreement among Jewish and Christian scholars that the kingdoms represented by Daniel's lion, bear and leopard, are the successive ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, followed by the fourth "terrible" beast, that is understood to be the Roman Empire. Now consider:

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Daniel also ascribes the masculine gender to his kingdom "beasts")

So John paints a picture of a composite beast using the same figures that Daniel did. What countries occupy the seats of those ancient kingdoms today?

Babylon = Iraq
Medo-Persia = Iran
ancient Greece = Syria-Lebanon

While these countries have some theological and political differences, they are all perfectly united through the power of the spirit of antichrist, and all follow THE false prophet Muhammad. We can see the power that Satan gave Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast exercised, every day in the news, yet even some Christian folks are even today, too blind to see it.

Quote from: michael777 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this?

Satan is IN the people OF the world that reject the Son of God. Satan is IN the followers of THE false prophet Muhammad through the spirit of antichrist:

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

1 John 2:22 ..... He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.....

Quote from: michael777 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions.

I couldn't agree more.

Quote from: michael777 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth?

In the false prophet Muhammad's case, 1400 years ago. In the case of his 1.5 billion Islamic kingdom "beast" followers, that's 1/4 of mankind in the world today. Muhammad's orthodox followers continuing on in the Islamic conquest of the world and subjugation of all people to Muhammad's followers.
Even having to deny the crucifixion of Christ, and thus the blood He shed for us all, as an article of their faith in Muhammad alone:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ..... but they killed him not, nor crucified him ..... for of a surety they killed him not:-

Quote from: michael777 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.

But not so involved for those with eyes to see it by employing sound hermeneutic principles and through the traditional historicist approach to Bible prophecy.

The "beast" of Revelation 13 being THE false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom of the prior post, would seem very much to be confirmed by John's prophecy of 8 kings/beasts, since the Roman Empire was conquered by the Islamic First Jihad. Here is what John was assigned to write:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Revelation 17:10  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

An internet search reveals that no shortage of folks consider the first five "fallen" to be the successive kingdoms of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and ancient Greece. Considering John's assignment we can see that the 6th king (also kingdom "beast" as per the next verse) or the one that "is" in power as John penned the verse, was the Roman Empire.  Just as John prophesied, the Roman Empire was conquered by the 7th king/beast that had "not yet come", which the historical record informs us was the Islamic First Jihad.

The Islamic Empire lost it's power - but not it's seat - after the Islamic First Jihad was mortally wounded in the Battle of Tours, France. Later on the two horned beast later "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him" (or in the presence of), the Islamic beast. Choices for the horns are the Crusades - as a lambkin in name, with works of a dragon, or a later choice could be the western powers in the form of the British Mandate and/or Desert Storm.  The Islamic Empire lost it's power for a short time but maintained the seat in the area that Satan gave it.  The transfer of Western wealth through oil purchase and providing arms eventually healed the mortal wound of the Islamic beast, financing the Second Islamic Jihad in the image of the First Islamic Jihad.

It may be more constructive to recognize these seven "kings" in terms of the successive empire or kingdom reigns, since some kingdoms spanned periods longer than individual leaders, and particularly in light of the very next verse where we are brought back to our term "beast", which Daniel has already defined for us.   
(Strongs - kings - New Testament Greek Definition:  935 basileus {bas-il-yooce'} probably from 939 (through the notion of a foundation of power)

Revelation 17:11  And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

In this verse we find an 8th beast that "was" - before John - but "is not".  So the 8th beast isn't about the Roman Empire either, but it is "of the seven".  Considering the identity of our leopard-bear-lion beast in the prior post, today seated in Syria, Iran and Iraq, we find that it fits as having been "was", and also as having been "of the seven" (and as Strong's allows of the seventh), but is not the "is" "beast" or kingdom, of John's day - the Roman Empire. 

"..... it is said, five of the seven Kings are fallen, and one is, and another is not yet come; and the Beast that was and is not, being wounded to death with a sword, he is the eighth, and of the seven: he was therefore a collateral part of the seventh." - Isaac Newton

John writes to his first century audience:

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Pete, Can you tell me why John writes this to his first century audience if the beast was not a reality in their day? Of what use would this information be to them unless they were, with wisdom, to calculate his number and recognize the one whom he wrote of?


The Roman Emperor we know as Nero Caesar had two common spelling for his name in the first century. One form was Nero Kesar but the Hebrew spelling is Neron Kesar. This is important because some ancient MSS (handwritten manuscripts) instead of using the number 666 have the number 616. If you add up the letter values in Hebrew (that's why it takes shrewdness-most people did not know Hebrew) Neron Caesar (Neron Kaisar) adds up to 666. Neron Kaisar = Nrwn Q(K)sr in Hebrew which used no vowels, was the linguistically correct Hebrew form and is found in the Jewish Talmud, in the writings of the community at Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, and other rabbinical writings. No Jew would ever have thought of Nero except as rsq nwrn (Hebrew read left to right). But Nero Caesar (rsq nwr), the other spelling (alternate spellings were very common), adds up to 616, which is exactly the variant reading in a few New Testament Revelation manuscripts for the number of the Beast.

From agapebiblestudy.com

Not saying for sure but it's food for thought.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 04:55:25
John writes to his first century audience:

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Pete, Can you tell me why John writes this to his first century audience ......

You may not be aware of this but your immediate audience hermeneutic was introduced by 17th century Roman church Jesuit Luis del Alcázar in a counter-reformation effort. In other words his attempt was conceived to deceive the reformers and divert their attention away from speculation about the Roman church and/or Pope being "The Antichrist" (I've posted on antichrist in the related thread). The reformers didn't buy the pop view. Neither did the church until it began to come into vogue during the 19th century. Visit the Wikipedia article on Alcazar section "Works".
Consider:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Was Paul talking to the Thessalonians or to the whole church? If Paul was only talking about himself and the Thessalonians as "we", and not the church as a whole - that is, you and me included - then where is the historical record of the Lord's shout and Paul and the Thessalonians being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air?

Or the historical record of this:

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

If the "times of the gentiles" in Jerusalem were fulfilled in 70 AD, then how is it that the Roman gentiles came back to whack another half million Jews less than 70 years later? How is it that gentiles ruled Jerusalem throughout the Christian era, and right up until 1967 when Jews took control, if the times of the gentiles in Jerusalem were fulfilled in 70AD?

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 04:55:25...... if the beast was not a reality in their day? Of what use would this information be to them unless they were, with wisdom, to calculate his number and recognize the one whom he wrote of?

The Roman Emperor we know as Nero Caesar had two common spelling for his name in the first century. One form was Nero Kesar but the Hebrew spelling is Neron Kesar. This is important because some ancient MSS (handwritten manuscripts) instead of using the number 666 have the number 616. If you add up the letter values in Hebrew (that's why it takes shrewdness-most people did not know Hebrew) Neron Caesar (Neron Kaisar) adds up to 666. Neron Kaisar = Nrwn Q(K)sr in Hebrew which used no vowels, was the linguistically correct Hebrew form and is found in the Jewish Talmud, in the writings of the community at Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, and other rabbinical writings. No Jew would ever have thought of Nero except as rsq nwrn (Hebrew read left to right). But Nero Caesar (rsq nwr), the other spelling (alternate spellings were very common), adds up to 616, which is exactly the variant reading in a few New Testament Revelation manuscripts for the number of the Beast.

From agapebiblestudy.com

Not saying for sure but it's food for thought.

I'm not unfamiliar with preterist need to pull that gematria out of the hat, but could it be easier than that? While just as anecdotal as yours, are you familiar with some of THE false prophet Muhammad's follower's efforts at gematria? Try a bing search of - quran 666

"The truth is that This Quran is the 666 , The Book from The Lord of the Universe.
GOD made His Messenger a witness with the letter Qaf and the number 666."
"The sum of sura numbers from Sura 1 to Sura 36 is 666." etc. etc.

Have you ever explored a study entirely within the traditional entire approach to prophecy of historicism, without trying to wring it through the filter of pre-conceived notions you hold from preterism? Would it really be that much of a surprise to find that this traditional approach of the reformers (and available evidence suggest the church for its first 1800 years) paints a bulls eye on Muhammad's back as THE false prophet of Revelation?

So who do you finger as THE false prophet in the first century, by Alcazar's hermeneutic? Who of that day was so significant as to be awarded the stature of being this person of the book of Revelation?

Rather than trying to sell a 20th century pop-eschatology spuriously conceived in the 17th century, why not quote and respond to the prior page post on John's chapter 13 leopard-bear-lion composite "beast" and explain what Nero had to do with a leopard, bear and lion?
How did Daniel define the term "beast", when introduced within the figurative language of his prophetic dream?
Why is it that Daniel's prophecy uses the very same figures that John did?

Do you ever wonder just how and why it was that Jerusalem went from the utter desolation of the beginning of the 19th century, to becoming one of the most technologically advanced and leading global economies and geopolitical focus of the world, over the short span of a couple hundred years?

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

That reads more like a headline than an OT prophecy, doesn't it?
If Zionism was just some sort of a freaky accident of history then how did the Reformers and Puritans understand through Bible prophecy, and confidently predict it would take place, centuries before the restoration of Jews to their land ever began?

Do you wonder why it is that the orthodox followers among THE false prophet Muhammad's 1.5 billion people are slaughtering and subjugating Christians and other non-Muslims all around the world? Why they must deny the crucifixion of Christ and blaspheme the Son of God as articles of their faith in THE false prophet Muhammad alone?

I don't wonder if a vacation to Syria might wake some western church folks up a bit. Or to Nigeria perhaps. Do you ever find yourself unhappily on the anti-Zionist side of Israeli Muslims, as opposed to the side of Israeli Jews, Christians and other non-Muslim Arabs?

Please don't think I'm ignoring your replies when you post them, because mine are generally held up for a day or so until approved by a moderator.

Quote The Beast Revelation of Revelation chapter 13

We as Christians do not have to speculate, OR, be at the mercy of man's vain thoughts, as to the truth of God's word. The scriptures themselves are its own interpreter~our work as bible believers is to trust God to reveal his truth to us. We live by faith in God's testimony of what is truth, and what is a lie. The beast of Revelation 13 is apostate Christianity as it leaves the true teachings of God, for man's own doctrines. The whole world will wonder after the beast, as a whole. They will be devil worshipers in the true sense of those words. Those who follow the beast are those whose names were not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, or from eternity. The false prophet are all prophets of the beast, who causes all to worship the beast, and if one refuses to do so, then those people cannot buy or sell, or, they will be not be accepted as true children of God, but as trouble makers, and false, and they shall be killed, or put to silence. Revelation 13 truly is not hard to put the proper senses of the highly symbolic languages used by John. But we use other scriptures to guide our understanding of Revelation~such as Matthew 24; 2nd Thess 2; 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5; etc.  As far as the number of the beast goes, God does not leave us wondering. 666 is 2/3 of what ever is under consideration.  The prophet Zachariah will reveal what this number represents.

QuoteZachariah 13:7-9~"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

There is our answer to 666~but, who has the wisdom of God, so that they can understand? Not many. Most (2/3 those who had the mark of the beast) will be cut off that follows the beast, but a small remnant (1/3 those who had the seal of God, or who names were written in the book of life) shall be saved, as they pass through the fires of the great tribulation period!  "The LORD is my God" who has opened the eyes of his servant!

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30

Quote The Beast Revelation of Revelation chapter 13

We as Christians do not have to speculate, ......

But didn't you go on to do just that?

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30..... OR, be at the mercy of man's vain thoughts, as to the truth of God's word. The scriptures themselves are its own interpreter ......

I couldn't agree more.

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30..... ~our work as bible believers is to trust God to reveal his truth to us. We live by faith in God's testimony of what is truth, and what is a lie. The beast of Revelation 13 is apostate Christianity as it leaves the true teachings of God, for man's own doctrines.

So how does scripture interpret apostate Christianity as having something to do with a leopard, bear and lion? I would appreciate very much if you begin your reply by answering that question.

When we search scripture for interpretation through an adjacent hermeneutic, why do you suppose it is that we find Daniel's prophecy uses these very same three figures when describing those kingdom "beasts", also within the same context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream?
(as detailed in the last post on the prior page)

When we close our eyes to such a simple, stunning and profound interpretation revealed by scripture, what else might our having done so, close our eyes to?

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30The whole world will wonder after the beast, as a whole.

"Will" wonder after the beast? Perhaps as John's prophecy looked forward to what was to come in his future.
But what might we find regarding fulfilled prophecy, if we exercise a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic of "world", as Strong's suggests:
world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world

If you look at a map of the spiritual condition of the prophet John's whole "world", outside of that tiny little strip of land of Israel protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State, virtually everyone in John's world does indeed wonder after THE false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast".

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30They will be devil worshipers in the true sense of those words.

Besides their being commanded to fight and slay non-Muslims (and specifically Jews and Christians) as Satan binds on them in the Quran, wouldn't you say the following might qualify as devil worship "in the true sense of those words", that is in fact engaged in by not only virtually everyone in John's whole "world" but by 1/4 of mankind around the world today, as articles of their "faith" in THE false prophet Muhammad alone?

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ..... but they killed him not, nor crucified him ..... for of a surety they killed him not:-

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Do those strike you as words that would be inspired by the jealous fallen angel named Satan?
While I've no sympathy for the apostate church, does even the vast majority of the apostate church deny that Jesus is the Son of God or deny His crucifixion and shed blood?

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30Those who follow the beast are those whose names were not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, or from eternity. The false prophet are all prophets ......

While suggesting that may fit your pre-conceived notion, does it fit the Koine Greek that indicates a single individual? Try to make sense of your own sentence: "The false prophet are all prophets....."

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30..... of the beast, who causes all to worship the beast, .......

Virtually 100% of John's world worship the Islamic beast. The pinnacle of worship in Islam is Jihad, as practiced by orthodox followers of THE false prophet Muhammad not only in John's "world" but around much of the rest of the world today.

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30....... and if one refuses to do so, then those people cannot buy or sell, .........

The tiny little remnant of non-Muslims in John's whole "world", are being wiped out by those that carry the name of the Islamic beast as I write, who not only can't buy or sell but are fleeing for their very lives.

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30........ or, they will be not be accepted as true children of God, but as trouble makers, and false, and they shall be killed, or put to silence.

As is happening throughout John's world, even beheading children for refusing to renounce Jesus Christ and parrot the Islamic shahada (the Islamic statement of "faith"). "There is no god by Allah and Muhammad is his messenger".

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30Revelation 13 truly is not hard to put the proper senses of the highly symbolic languages used by John. But we use other scriptures to guide our understanding of Revelation.........

Like those that contain the very same figures of lion, bear and leopard.

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30.......~such as Matthew 24; 2nd Thess 2; 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5; etc. As far as the number of the beast goes, God does not leave us wondering.

Nor does history.

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30666 is 2/3 of what ever is under consideration.

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Bing search - muhammad 666

John wasn't prophesying about Peoria Illinois. Through an ethnographic hermeneutic, the prophet John's whole world (outside of Israel) is virtually 100% Muslim. Consider:

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Anecdotally, many even carry a physical mark or "prayer bump" on their foreheads, from pressing them to the ground 5 times a day while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" as scripture refers to salat. Bing search images for "prayer bump".

As we can see through a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic, virtually 100% of John's whole "world" is already marked by the name of the beast - Islam - which would render the mark of the beast a fulfilled prophecy.