The Pulpit

[johntwayne]

A worthless hit piece in my judgment.  Preachers, like the prophets were, are despised while they live, yet the Bible says...

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
(Romans 10:14-16 NASB)

[/color]

[s1n4m1n]

Just a question, who "sent" you to preach?

Ken

[Lee Freeman]

I don't think he was saying there aren't times when people need to be confronted with sin and steered back on course, but do they need a steady diet of it? I've known and known of preachers just like he described, who apparently felt that if they didn't accuse, condemn, and convict people of sin and scare people into the baptistry they weren't fulfilling their mission. They would tell people that God is love then blast them with how wretched and sinful they were. There wasn't a lot of encouragement from some of these guys. Again, sometimes confrontation and condemnation is necessary, but not every Sunday.

Pax.

[PEGGY JOYCE]

:amen:

[Bill]

. . ., yet the Bible says...

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
(Romans 10:14-16 NASB)

I thought that was what the author was saying.  

I cherish the opportunity to teach and help to grow disciples of Christ. This responsibility is not taken lightly. Forgive me when I choose the wrong topic at the wrong time.

Some preachers lift people up and others put them down.  On the whole Jesus lifted people up.  Lifting people up will help them grow beyond sins much faster than yelling at them, IMO.  Seems to me that Satan uses the yelling and put downs to keep the people feeling guilty so they won't be able to grow beyond their sin.  

I thought the article was of value and something that preachers should think about.[/color]



[!--EDIT|Bill|1127499096--]

[Mere Nick]

I've known some preachers that were like Dr. Jekyll until they got behind a podium, then it was Mr. Hyde.  They would never talk to someone like they do once they get up there.  The best I've known were those that spoke to folks the same way they would if they were sitting at a kitchen table.

We had one guy from Mississippi visit a few years back.  He claims to have known Jerry Clower.  When he preached, it was like a Jerry Clower impersonator trying to preach.

[PEGGY JOYCE]

Did he let any snakes loose?     :D

[Bill]

The best I've known were those that spoke to folks the same way they would if they were sitting at a kitchen table.

I agree Nick.  Seems to me that's the way Jesus was.

[Barry]

Have any of you ever read the threads on this board that discuss preachers from a preacher's point of view? Since I happen to be one, it is no wonder that preacher's cannot please anyone, as everyone has their own opinion about what they should speak about, how they should do it, what they should look like what they should wear, etc....

And while I know there are some out there preaching who shouldn't be, most of them are working their hind end off, for very little pay, trying to bring glory to God's kingdom, and all they ever hear are complaints about the most petty things imaginable. You get to the point where you wonder if it is really worth it.

It reminds me of when I first started preaching and had an elder tell me, "We look at you preachers like Bic lighters. We just use one up, throw it away, and go out and get another one."

IHS,
Barry

[ConnieLard]

:amen: I do get tired of hearing how preachers are doing it wrong and the church is doing it wrong.  I see a lot of preachers and churches that are doing a lot of things right.  And a lot that, even if not doing everything just right, have their hearts in the right place.  Maybe it's time to focus more on the good things and stop harping on the other stuff?

[Bon Voyage]

As a PK, I can attest to what Barry is saying.  

I think in our culture a lot of preachers are put on a pedestal.  Preachers are just people, and they err as much as anyone else.  They need support and sometimes rebuke.

This can best be accomplished face to face, however, I don't see this happening a lot of the time.

If you don't like how the preacher does something, or especially if the preacher man offends you, tell him, he can't read your mind.  If you tell him, there is a good possibility you can work through it with him rather than bottling it up and getting bitter or just leaving and badmouthing him.

Preachers are sinners too.

[janine]

I try to do it that way.

If something preached is important enough to be addressed, it's important enough for me to go to the man and address it to him.

[ollie]

We have made preaching a profession to be learned in college, whereby one may support themselves/earn a living.

It was not so in the first century.

The article seems a want to get back to the Bible and do things as shown to us in the word. Hitting the local congregation with a wet noodle every Sunday was/is not the way.

ollie

[johntwayne]

Have any of you ever read the threads on this board that discuss preachers from a preacher's point of view? Since I happen to be one, it is no wonder that preacher's cannot please anyone, as everyone has their own opinion about what they should speak about, how they should do it, what they should look like what they should wear, etc....

And while I know there are some out there preaching who shouldn't be, most of them are working their hind end off, for very little pay, trying to bring glory to God's kingdom, and all they ever hear are complaints about the most petty things imaginable. You get to the point where you wonder if it is really worth it.

It reminds me of when I first started preaching and had an elder tell me, "We look at you preachers like Bic lighters. We just use one up, throw it away, and go out and get another one."

IHS,
Barry

Worse yet we are viewed as toliet paper.  We are brought in and used as a wipe over the problems the church has and then thrown away when no more will stick to us.[/color]

[admin]

Yeah, I think people often want to hear themselves speak. People want to tell you that you should have done this or referred to this passage instead of the one you used. The song leader should lead more new songs or more old songs. Lots of people think the world should be taylor made for them.

I often think it is funny when we (Family Dynamics) ask people for their opinion on certain things (like curriculum). Many times it's like they feel obligated to invent problems.

I had an English teacher at FHU that changed the text in one of my papers. (You know, she put a line through it and worded it differently) I asked her if my was was grammatically incorrect. She said "No." So I asked why she changed it. "My way sounded better," she said.

Funny, I don't remember signing up for a "Become a clone of Mrs. ." I thought the class was called "English."

Again, as I said above, people want to hear themselves speak. Today, people are obsessed with NO ONE being seen as at all better, or superior to them. So it's a free for all in terms of being critical of the "expert."

I remember someone who had NEVER even hit a golf ball giving me advice about my golf swing back when I was actually good and played on a college team. Then there was someone who worked with me who had never built a web site in her life telling me how I should change the company's web site. "That will hurt us severly in search engine ranking," I said. "No it won't," was her reply.

I was SO insulted. Admittedly, she had never studied search engines. Had never built a web site or studied building a web site. But I certainly couldn't be considered the expert, especially since she outranked me! I simply refused to make her changes. Wisely, those higher than her sided with my experience over her wim.

:rollingeyes:

I think preachers get the same thing. According to one, he preaches too much against sin. According to another, it's too much about how there's grace and not enough about how we shouldn't make that grace cheap by sinning and dismissing it to being covered by grace. He preaches too much from the Old Testament, sister Smith says it's too much from the New Testament. Too many stories. Too much reading...blah blah blah.

One man cannot please every person every Sunday.

[parson6]

I have been preaching for more than twenty-five years now.  I love the study and presentation of the Word, and I take this privilege/responsibility very seriously.  The pulpit is not a platform for my ego or my issues, it is the place of proclamation for God's Word, will, and heart.  My personality is rather relaxed, I'm definitely not a "type A".  Therefore, my sermons tend to be relaxed: I rarely get loud or "pound the pulpit".  So, when I do, people know something is up.

I have often expressed to people that the Gospel, as good news, is such because it counteracts the bad news.  Unfortunately, in our day and age, no one wants to hear the bad news so there is no need for the good news.  (as far as they can see)  What I fear is that too many pulpits are filled with motivational speakers and cheerleaders who throw out spiritual pablum at best and pop theology/psychology at worst.

A Missouri Synod Lutheran "pastor" once explained the Lutheran concept of preaching to me.  He said it is all about law and grace.  Every sermon confronts and convicts with the law, which no one can perfectly obey, and then calls and comforts with grace which every one is free to receive.  I like that.  It doens't mean we yell, spit, holler, and cuss.  It simply means we help helpless sinners come to Christ to find hope, and we help those who are new creatures to continue growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus.

The men who fill our pulpits, myself most of all, are weak, feeble, and frail.  With trembling hands, beating hearts, and praying lips we take up God's Book and share it's bounty with our congregations.  May God's Spirit equip and enable us.  May we be true.

[kanham]

We wanted a priesthood of all believers and so people decided to take that and run with it. If only we acted more priestly instead of thinking that put everyone in charge. IF only setting up a system right would fix it all.

[Jimbob]

We wanted a priesthood of all believers and so people decided to take that and run with it. If only we acted more priestly instead of thinking that put everyone in charge. IF only setting up a system right would fix it all.

It bears repeating.

[Bon Voyage]

All this aside, sometimes the preacher/elder IS wrong.

It may be something I have to confront real shortly.

[s1n4m1n]

I want so much to say

WHAT A BUNCH OF WHINERS!

but there have been some non-whining posts here too.

[Jimbob]

Well, I remember a congregation whining because no one would step up to be shepherds.  I reminded them of how they'd treated the last ones, which is why no one would step up.  I'll say the same thing here I did there.  If you want better leaders, start treating the ones you've got better.  Often, if a preacher is only yelling and preaching the hard stuff, it's because he's been burdened with a lot more negative than positive, some of which is far behind the scenes to most in the church.  It may just be he's getting weary of a heavy load.  If it were you in that position, what would you want?  Build 'em up, show them love, and give them every opportunity to see that while everything's not perfect, it's not all Sodom & Gomorrah either.  Bear one another's burdens.

In short, do unto preachers as you would have them do unto you.

[s1n4m1n]

I'm sure there are plenty of antedotes on both sides (bad congreations/bad preachers). Most of the located preachers I'm familiar with appear to be very well compensated (drive nice cars, live in nice homes, etc.)

Some in the very small congregations (less than 40 members) appear to be less well off.

It seems to me that compensation is directly tied to "pulpit presentation". Those who are good public speakers eventually make it to the bigger, weathlier, higher paying congregations.

[DCR]

I'm sure there are plenty of antedotes on both sides

Yeah, we might need some antedotes just in case someone slipped something into the green bean casserole.

I think you mean anecdotes  :;):

[Jimbob]

I'm sure there are plenty of antedotes on both sides (bad congreations/bad preachers). Most of the located preachers I'm familiar with appear to be very well compensated (drive nice cars, live in nice homes, etc.)

Some in the very small congregations (less than 40 members) appear to be less well off.

It seems to me that compensation is directly tied to "pulpit presentation". Those who are good public speakers eventually make it to the bigger, weathlier, higher paying congregations.

I'm not talking money, I'm talking love, respect, compassion...etc.

[s1n4m1n]

I'm sure there are plenty of antedotes on both sides

Yeah, we might need some antedotes just in case someone slipped something into the green bean casserole.

I think you mean anecdotes  :;):[/color]

No, I meant antedotes... the congregation can fire the preacher and the preacher can berate them.

[s1n4m1n]

I'm sure there are plenty of antedotes on both sides (bad congreations/bad preachers). Most of the located preachers I'm familiar with appear to be very well compensated (drive nice cars, live in nice homes, etc.)

Some in the very small congregations (less than 40 members) appear to be less well off.

It seems to me that compensation is directly tied to "pulpit presentation". Those who are good public speakers eventually make it to the bigger, weathlier, higher paying congregations.

I'm not talking money, I'm talking love, respect, compassion...etc.[/color]

OK, yeah I agree.

[seekr]

One man cannot please every person every Sunday.

Well here is what the problem mainly is. Congregations are not supposed to be led by one man. Jesus is the Head of His church. A pastor is not someone in charge, but an example of a living Christ who gave His life for us. The churches have it wrong by putting a man on a pedestal or behind a pulpit. We all should share what God has shown us, personally and take care of each other. This is being the church. There will always be the natural problems from us being human, but love should take precedence. I do not think the hired, trained pastors of today are pastors according to what scripture says.

seekr[/color]

[Bon Voyage]

I do not think the hired, trained pastors of today are pastors according to what scripture says.

Some are called, some aren't.  What you said applies to some but not all.

With that being said, I don't believe that one elder rule is good for a church body.  I believe in the plurality of elders and elder rule with the congregation kept in the loop.

I find myself currently in a loving church with one elder rule, and I will soon find myself sharing some concerns with the pastor (elder).  I hope to be as respectful as possible.

I believe Elders are to be leaders of the church.  I find that to be biblical.  However, the biblical example of leadership is to be the greatest servant.[/color]

[seekr]

I believe Elders are to be leaders of the church.  I find that to be biblical.  However, the biblical example of leadership is to be the greatest servant.

That is how it should be, but rarely is. The churches have adopted the world's view of leadership. I think we do not recognize the true elders or the pastors in the church for the most part. I have a writing where the janitor is the pastor that God has called and does His work.

seekr[/color]

[Barry]

The churches have it wrong by putting a man on a pedestal or behind a pulpit. We all should share what God has shown us, personally and take care of each other.

While it is obviously wrong to lift one person above another, it sounds like you are totally against having a pastor. Am I correct? If so, what do you do with all the biblical examples of pastors leading a flock?

IHS,
Barry[/color]

[seekr]

First off what is "having a pastor"? There are pastor/shepherds, but mostly I do not believe they are the ones in the pulpits. Maybe some were called and are there because this is how they think it is supposed to be. But if they are truly called they probably will not stay in those positions as it is built to create pride which could lead to destruction.

Obviously, Barry, you did not understand what I wrote as I said the janitor, serving a church, could more likely be God's view of the pastor. I am against the titled views of today. People just tend to take things they read in scripture and make positions of something that was just an act of loving. Too many promoters out there. Promoters of their denominations, promoters of their books, promoters of their web sites. Not that in some instances that is bad, but God will know the heart condition of those who are His. "...he may become conceited and fall into the SAME CONDEMNATION AS THE DEVIL." See how the church is run to cause this to happen? This is the trap that will lead to destruction. This is the yeast of the Pharisees we are to watch out for. And this is why I dislike what I see going on in the churches. As long as we still have the pulpits (funny how I always think of the word 'puppet') and the system that does promote pride, then we may never know the fullness of God. I have things to share. Others have things to share. Sit in a circle and quit being the only one to preach every Sunday. Start meeting needs nstead of just praying for people. Give away what YOU have asopposedto what you have collected on Sunday. Go without so others can live.

In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

seekr

[Barry]

seekr,
But the Bible clearly states that there should be pastors who lead the church under Christ's guidance. That is what pastors do, and should do. I guess I don't see the problem with that.

Start meeting needs instead of just praying for people. Give away what YOU have asopposedto what you have collected on Sunday. Go without so others can live.

That is what I do all the time, as do most in pastoral ministry. Your comments to the contrary are a real insult to one who has given up much in the way of material goods to serve Christ in the trenches where most people (most likely you included) would not dare to tread. We take constant abuse and criticism from people like you who have no idea what you're talking about, and at the same time do it with a smile on our face as we continue in the calling given to us by God.

IHS,
Barry[/color]

[Bon Voyage]

Seekr,

1 Tim 5:17

17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

[Bon Voyage]

I think part of the problem is some people put preachers/pastors up on such a pedestal, that there can literally can be no pleasing that person.

A pastor or elder or deacon are just people, they can make mistakes.  

Seekr, the pulpit isn't the root of problems with people who have abused their position of elder, its the people who abused the position of elder that are the root of the problem.

[seekr]

The pulpit adds to it, Jerry.


And Barry I live in the trenches that you would have no idea about and have for years. i do not equate a pulpit with any trench as it is up front for all to look up to.

seekr