The world of preterism is taking form

[3 Resurrections]

Rella, you are deliberately turning a blind eye to the words of Jesus in Luke 13:25-30 that I gave above.  Christ proves the first-century identity of those who would weep and mourn when they saw Him return in glory with the clouds.  These eye-witnesses were specifically those who ate and drank with Christ and who heard Him teaching in their streets.

Yes, Matthew, Mark, and Luke all foretold of them seeing His return.  But if they were forced to remain in the city during those last remaining months of desperate conditions, there wasn't much of a likely opportunity in the middle of that carnage to preserve a record of what they saw before they either died or were taken captive by the Romans in late AD 70 to die soon afterward.   

Also, you are presuming that since archaeology hasn't discovered such recorded evidence of eye-witness testimony yet, that such evidence was never made.   We can't say that absolutely.  The present Ophel dig site in the Old City continues to turn up artifacts such as those coins minted with Simon Bar Giora's name in the 4th year of the Zealot rebellion (AD 70).

For example, many if not most of the ossuaries made around that particular time period (when quarried limestone had been readily available for making bone boxes) are found empty of any human remains.  To me, this absence of human remains in so many of the recovered ossuaries speaks - not of grave robbers - but of a resurrection of the bodies of the righteous who had died before the AD 70 resurrection.  Not so with the contents of the Caiphas ossuary.  The bodies of the wicked are left to perish in the grave.

The same condition applies at the true location of the "double cave" of Machpelah near Hebron where Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, and Jacob and Leah were all buried.  It's empty.  And has been since the AD 70 resurrection when they all sat down in the kingdom of God, as seen by those living first-century eye-witnesses who were weeping and gnashing their teeth because they were not included.

[Rella]

Rella, you are deliberately turning a blind eye to the words of Jesus in Luke 13:25-30 that I gave above.  Christ proves the first-century identity of those who would weep and mourn when they saw Him return in glory with the clouds.  These eye-witnesses were specifically those who ate and drank with Christ and who heard Him teaching in their streets.

No I am not.

But I will concede that IF any such physical evidence turns up in some archaological dig I will be the first to say I am wrong.

But dont hold your breath.

As simply as I can say this....

"I" cannot apply what Jesus says in  Luke 13 vs 22-32 as having actually seen HIM when he alledgedly appeard, for the simple reason that the reference to the people here were a lead up to his crucifixion.


22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?"  My comments are in blue.... below

And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' 26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'

This is all about those who will be lost.... IOW "not saved"


28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."

31 On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, "Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You."

32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be [j]perfected.'

The third day after his crucifixion, which has nothing to do with his returning on the clouds.

33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.

*************

BUT if you insist that these are the folks who would see him coming 40 years later on the clouds..... let's assume they are.

Sticking only with Mathew 24. These are Jesus' words as he was talking to His disciples on the mout of olives.

Mathew ~ 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Do you agree this would be after the destruction and ensuing mayhem?

Mathew~ 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.....

This say zero about anyone saying to Jesus 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' 26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

....then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....

So everyone would have seen him. RIGHT???  They would have seen  "Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"


....31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Sigh...

I am not going to comment on this. I am sure you will say that only the elect could hear the trupet and be gathered....
caught up, if you will.... into some sort of "secret" Rapture.

But it still remains that Jesus never said only the elect would see Him.... He said all the tribes... and a tribe is not necessarily
all believers.

King James dictionary defines Tribe as
Tribe - A collection of families descending from one ancestor.

http://www.kingjamesbibledictionary.com/Tribes

So it remains that of those who would have seen him.... and that would have been after the destruction according to Jesus...
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

And if it was "The tribes who would have seen him~ "all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming"

And some of the tribes were gathered by the angels...."and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"

Not all would be gathered.... but all would see..... and from there we had total silence.

I am sorry we do not agree. But based on Jesus own words of what he said to his disciples of that fateful time.... he did not appear THEN.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi again Rella,

Based on Jesus's words to His disciples about the time of the end when they would be persecuted for His sake, Matthew 10:23 says "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL TILL THE SON OF MAN BE COME."

By your logic then, the persecuted disciples Jesus spoke to should still be alive over in Israel, continually going from city to city evangelizing, since Jesus said that they personally would still be actively engaged in this uncompleted task when He returned. 

You objected earlier that even if Revelation was written before AD 70, that John living after AD 70 should have followed up with a "sequel" to Revelation, describing how it had been fulfilled to his student Polycarp.  I believe you are confusing the various men by the name of "John" active in the church back then. 

The author of Revelation was not one of the sons of Zebedee (James and John).  As for the man named John who was reputed to have lived and ministered in the church after the AD 70 date, I believe that man was "John surnamed Mark", sister's son to Barnabas.  The quote by Papias in Eusebius' History of the Church identifies two of the men named John: one the disciple, son of Zebedee, and one called the "elder", who I believe to be that "John surnamed Mark".

But neither of these men named John in Eusebius' writings is Revelation's author.  That honor goes to the man called "John Eleazar", or we would know him better by the name of Lazarus the "beloved disciple" who was resurrected.  After the AD 70 resurrection and rapture of all the resurrected saints, Lazarus the author of Revelation was not on earth to write that "sequel" to his Apocalypse, proving it's fulfillment, that you think should have been written.

As for those living first-century eye-witnesses, weeping and gnashing their teeth in Luke 13:28 because they missed being "saved", that means they missed that occasion of being resurrected.  The bodily resurrection is the final end result that completes our salvation, does it not?  Those first-century "tribes of the earth" besieged in Jerusalem were going to witness the return of Christ and His gathering of the resurrected saints through the Eastern Gate to the Mount of Olives, but they themselves were on the other side of that Eastern Gate "door", as being left behind to die later on in Jerusalem, or to be taken prisoner by the Romans.

This hope of salvation, (meaning the resurrection), was a promise originally given to the "Fathers", as Paul reminded Agrippa in Acts 26:6-7.  "And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: Unto which promise OUR TWELVE TRIBES, instantly serving God day and night, HOPE TO COME...". This earnest hope of the resurrection that the 12 "tribes of the earth" had cherished was going to be dashed when their unbelief in Christ made it impossible for Him to include them. 

The specific date for this resurrection and return of Christ was given in Daniel 12:11-13.  That 1,335th day for Daniel's resurrection fell exactly on Pentecost Day in AD 70.  This was "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, whose detailed events were all given in the combined evidence of the gospels - and seconded by much in Josephus's writing.

The church has and will experience various periods of tribulation since then, but none will ever equal or surpass that Great Tribulation period from AD 66-70, since Satan and the demonic realm haven't been around since then to torment mankind by their presence.

[Rella]

You objected earlier that even if Revelation was written before AD 70, that John living after AD 70 should have followed up with a "sequel" to Revelation, describing how it had been fulfilled to his student Polycarp.  I believe you are confusing the various men by the name of "John" active in the church back then. 

The author of Revelation was not one of the sons of Zebedee (James and John).  As for the man named John who was reputed to have lived and ministered in the church after the AD 70 date, I believe that man was "John surnamed Mark", sister's son to Barnabas.  The quote by Papias in Eusebius' History of the Church identifies two of the men named John: one the disciple, son of Zebedee, and one called the "elder", who I believe to be that "John surnamed Mark".

But neither of these men named John in Eusebius' writings is Revelation's author.  That honor goes to the man called "John Eleazar", or we would know him better by the name of Lazarus the "beloved disciple" who was resurrected.  After the AD 70 resurrection and rapture of all the resurrected saints, Lazarus the author of Revelation was not on earth to write that "sequel" to his Apocalypse, proving it's fulfillment, that you think should have been written.

I am in the throws of reading some of the Gospel ( gnostic) of Thomas... prepping to post but I have to comment on this before making a longer reply.

In any event... John.... MY UNDERSTANDING as I always have heard and I looked it up to confirm my beliefs. 2 articles with links. I know you will disagree with these
but then we do know Jesus was talking to His disciples .... In Mark there are only 4 named.

History of John the Disciple of Jesus

QUESTION: What is the history of John the disciple of Jesus?

ANSWER:

To learn the history of John, the disciple of Jesus, we begin with his life before he met Jesus. John, his brother James, Peter, and Andrew were all partners in the fishing business before they became disciples of Jesus. John was the son of Zebedee who was also a fisherman in Galilee. John's mother's name was Salome and some say that Salome was the sister of Jesus' mother, Mary. John owned a home in Jerusalem. Shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD, John moved to Ephesus.

John pastored a church in Ephesus. He communicated with other churches in the area as stated in the book of Revelation. He advised and counseled many people who would later become believers in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

By order of the Roman Emperor, Domitian, John was exiled to the island, Patmos. Domitian ordered his exile because hesaw John as a threat to his rule. However, his popularity and influence in the Christian community continued through correspondence with all the churches. John wrote the book of Revelation during his exile. When he was released from exile, he returned to Ephesus. John founded and built churches all through Asia until he was old, and died the sixty-eighth year after our Lord's passion, peacefully in Ephesus.

During his life, John wrote the book of John and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd book of John and the book of Revelation. Near the end of his life, it is said that he constantly repeated the phrase, "Little children, love one another!" He did that because he believed it was the Lord's most important commandment.

https://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/history-of-john-the-disciple-of-jesus-faq.htm

Who Was John the Apostle? The Beginner's Guide

The Apostle John (also known as Saint John) was one of Jesus Christ's 12 disciples, and a prominent leader in the early Christian church. Along with James and Peter, John was one of Jesus' closest confidants, so he appears in more biblical accounts than the other disciples.

John is traditionally regarded as the author of five books of the Bible: the Gospel of John, the epistles 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John, and the Book of Revelation, although some Bible scholars dispute which of these (if any) he actually wrote. He is also believed to be the only disciple who died of old age (the others were allegedly martyred).

In the early second century, Justin Martyr was the first to suggest this John was the Apostle John, and since then, many Christians have presumed that John the Apostle was exiled to Patmos for preaching the gospel.

(In this article there is reference to the confusion(?) of the John's.)

It's worth noting as well: Eusebius wasn't sure Revelation belonged in the biblical canon at all. He wasn't alone—Revelation was a tricky book for the early church. People either ardently loved it and considered it Scripture, or they thought it had no place in the Bible. So perhaps he had some motivation to distance it from the apostles. Later scholars have used this possible motivation to discredit Eusebius' interpretation of Papias.

Other scholars have maintained this distinction as well though, and they've dubbed this writer John the Revelator, John the Elder, John the Divine, and John the Theologian. All of these names are used to separate this John from John the Apostle. But it's a bit messy, because these names are also sometimes used interchangeably with John the Apostle.

( No matter who wrote REV.... It was John , the disciple... who was with Jesus on the Mount of Olives to hear his answers as to what would be the sign of the end of the age and Jesus' return)

(And this John lived to 98 AD... )

Before Jesus died on the cross, he entrusted his mother Mary to John's care—assuming John actually is the beloved disciple (John 19:26–27). When Mary died, John went to Ephesus and wrote his three epistles. Then he was exiled to Patmos for preaching the gospel, where he received the revelation from Christ and wrote the Book of Revelation. Eventually he made it back to Ephesus and died an ordinary death sometime after 98 AD.

Tertullian, a Christian writer from the late second and early third century, wrote that before the Romans banished John,

(Certainly seems Rev. John was this John)

they brought him into a coliseum and dunked him in a vat of boiling oil. When he emerged unharmed, the entire coliseum converted to Christianity.

https://overviewbible.com/john-the-apostle/

Later

[Rella]

Good morning, 3 Resurections,

Sun is out, will be close to 80 today and a great time for me to continue my reply to you.

I will not rehash what I already have said in my last reply but will hopefully finish what I did not have time for until now.

Hi again Rella,

Based on Jesus's words to His disciples about the time of the end when they would be persecuted for His sake, Matthew 10:23 says "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL TILL THE SON OF MAN BE COME."

By your logic then, the persecuted disciples Jesus spoke to should still be alive over in Israel, continually going from city to city evangelizing, since Jesus said that they personally would still be actively engaged in this uncompleted task when He returned.

No, this is not correct at all.

Interlinear says Mathew 1023
"Whenever then they persecute you in the  city one flee to the next Truly for I say to you no not shall you have completed the cities of Isreal  until - be come the Son of Man'

The most glaring fact is that of the 12 diciples, of whom Jesus was talking to and referring to .... all of them, except for John were dead before 70 AD and "the Son of Man" would not have appeared until the destruction was done.

Yes, I know there were 70 - 72 others (according to your point ovf view) appointed by Jesus...


And of the 70 appointed by Jesus who survived... past 70 AD we have 3 known... Timothy, below needs considertaion.

#1. 69 AD or 76 AD The Apostle Peter (Simon-Peter) was crucified "with his head downwards during the reign of Emperor Nero.

#2. THE Apostle Thaddaeus, AKA Lebbaeus, Judas or Jude: According to several old manuscripts, he was crucified at Edessa (the name of cities in both Turkey and Greece) in 72 AD.

#3. TIMOTHY  was the celebrated disciple of Paul, and bishop of Ephesus, where he zealously governed the Church until A.D. 97.

Allow me to note on Timothy. IF Timothy was so governing the church in 97AD , and he did not mention the return... even in the clouds of Jesus on 70AD....... does this not bother you?

#4. Luke He lieved to the age of 84 , but I have no record of the year he died. The fact that he never met Jesus is irrelevant.

If he lived past 70 AD he should have noted it.

The fact is that none of the 3( inclu Peter)  that we know lived after 70AD, but who were alive during 70AD made any mentionof Jesus return.

These are men who lived and breathed Jesus. Their very lives were all about Jesus and what he came for and the evangelized and preached. Their very air was inhaling what Jesus did for them. THEY SHOULD HAVE TOLD THE WORLD JESUS' PREDICTION THAT THE "and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. " FROM JESUS MOUTH TRULY HAPPENED.

You could say that Peter died in 69 before it happened.
You could say Luke might have died before it happened.

You could say Thaddeus, being crucified in 72AD was more involved in trying to escape what was coming to him and had no time to sit a "write" it out.

BUT there is no excuse for Timothy.

He may not have been an historian recording what 'they' did about 66-70AD then... but for Pete's sake, he should have been recording things of importance to a Christian ........ HE DID NOT

You objected earlier that even if Revelation was written before AD 70, that John living after AD 70 should have followed up with a "sequel" to Revelation, describing how it had been fulfilled to his student Polycarp.  I believe you are confusing the various men by the name of "John" active in the church back then. 

The author of Revelation was not one of the sons of Zebedee (James and John).  As for the man named John who was reputed to have lived and ministered in the church after the AD 70 date, I believe that man was "John surnamed Mark", sister's son to Barnabas.  The quote by Papias in Eusebius' History of the Church identifies two of the men named John: one the disciple, son of Zebedee, and one called the "elder", who I believe to be that "John surnamed Mark".

But neither of these men named John in Eusebius' writings is Revelation's author.  That honor goes to the man called "John Eleazar", or we would know him better by the name of Lazarus the "beloved disciple" who was resurrected.  After the AD 70 resurrection and rapture of all the resurrected saints, Lazarus the author of Revelation was not on earth to write that "sequel" to his Apocalypse, proving it's fulfillment, that you think should have been written.

As for those living first-century eye-witnesses, weeping and gnashing their teeth in Luke 13:28 because they missed being "saved", that means they missed that occasion of being resurrected.  The bodily resurrection is the final end result that completes our salvation, does it not?  Those first-century "tribes of the earth" besieged in Jerusalem were going to witness the return of Christ and His gathering of the resurrected saints through the Eastern Gate to the Mount of Olives, but they themselves were on the other side of that Eastern Gate "door", as being left behind to die later on in Jerusalem, or to be taken prisoner by the Romans.

This hope of salvation, (meaning the resurrection), was a promise originally given to the "Fathers", as Paul reminded Agrippa in Acts 26:6-7.  "And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: Unto which promise OUR TWELVE TRIBES, instantly serving God day and night, HOPE TO COME...". This earnest hope of the resurrection that the 12 "tribes of the earth" had cherished was going to be dashed when their unbelief in Christ made it impossible for Him to include them. 

The specific date for this resurrection and return of Christ was given in Daniel 12:11-13.  That 1,335th day for Daniel's resurrection fell exactly on Pentecost Day in AD 70.  This was "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, whose detailed events were all given in the combined evidence of the gospels - and seconded by much in Josephus's writing.

The church has and will experience various periods of tribulation since then, but none will ever equal or surpass that Great Tribulation period from AD 66-70, since Satan and the demonic realm haven't been around since then to torment mankind by their presence.

Please provide a specific scripture(s)  that talk of Satan having been bound for the 1000 years, then was loosed a bit, other then Rev 20.

For if I am correct that Rev was written in 96 AD that is a future event.  If you are correct that Rev was written before 70AD
then as it is worded it would still be a future even no matter what year Rev had been written.

For the sake of arguement, lets say Rev was written, as some say.... (sorry I foret what date you put on things) 68 or 69AD...
You cannot put Rev 20, as written in the time span until 70AD. You would need to have it writtenbefore Jesus going back into BC for it to have been fulfilled by 70AD that other preterests that I have spoken with claim.

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3  and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 
7  Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8  and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9  They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10  The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

If you are correct then #7 i should have been written something like ~ Now  the thousand years have expired, Satan IS released from his prison... and will go out to deceive the nations

This writing is future, no matter how much spin to make it having been over and done , it simply is not.

[3 Resurrections]

Good morning back atcha Rella,

Sun is trying to shine here, and I should be outside taking down two metal porch pillars, but it's definitely easier to post comments than to wrestle with metal poles when you're 60.

First of all, the silence from Timothy (if he survived past AD 70) about the second coming and resurrection in AD 70 was very prudent.  As a church leader charged to protect the flock, evangelism had to be somewhat discreet during those years following their AD 66 flight as refugees.   Nero's prophesied holocaust waged against the Christians for 3-1/2 years as the "little horn" (from AD 64-68) had only just barely passed.

Also, hatred for Christians from those still stubbornly loyal to Judaism was still strong, and it would have only poured salt in their open wounds for Christians to boast "See?  We TOLD you Christ was going to come back and squash your temple and crush the nation of Israel to dust.  Wanna join our club now?"

So no, it doesn't bother me that we currently don't have treatises on the AD 70 return of Christ authored by Timothy that were distributed throughout the known world and ensconced in a famous ancient library for preservation.  What DOES bother me is the assumption that nothing was ever written, because this kind of evidence has not come to light...YET.   Archaeology is an ongoing discovery, and as you know, we have not completely exhausted all discoveries at this point.  (By the way, did you take note of my mention of the true location of Abraham's cave of Machpelah near Hebron ...EMPTY of any human bones?)

For the composition date of Revelation, from multiple pieces of internal evidence compared with each other, the date is narrowed down to a very specific time frame between late AD 59 and early AD 60 - absolutely no later than that.  I submitted these internal pieces of proof in this post link (comment #14): 

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/when-was-revelation-written/

You asked for other scripture besides Rev. 20 that mention the millennium binding and then loosing of Satan for a brief time.  Easy.  Rev.12:12.  "...Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!" (both Israel and Gentile nations) "for the devil IS COME DOWN UNTO YOU" (A *PRESENT* condition for John's readers) "having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but A *SHORT TIME*."  This "short time" that was PRESENTLY GOING ON as John was writing proves that the millennium had ENDED and EXPIRED by then, when compared to Rev. 20:3&7.

Would you like an OT reference to the millennial binding of Satan?  Try Psalm 72:4 in the LXX - a prophetic Psalm with King David's last words as a prediction that his son Solomon "shall bring low the FALSE ACCUSER...". And we know that the "accuser of the brethren" is Satan, from Rev. 12:10, when the "accuser of the brethren" is cast out of heaven into the earth.

Here's another found in Hannah's prophetic Magnificat as she praises God after giving her baby Samuel.   This also is in the LXX for I Samuel 2:10.  After predicting that God would raise the needy from the dung-hill and seat him with the princes of the people, causing the inheritance of the throne of glory, (David's ascending the throne), Hannah predicted that "The Lord will weaken His adversary".  This would be David's son Solomon that God would use to weaken Satan's deceptive influence in this world - Satan being the ultimate adversary of mankind.

Scripture highlights Solomon with "weakening" and "bringing low the false accuser" Satan, because it was the ceremonial laying down of Solomon's temple foundation stone in 968/967 BC that began the literal 1,000-year millennium of a physical temple worship system.  This millennium of Satan's binding lasted until AD 33, when Christ Himself fulfilled this type by becoming the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple not made with hands.

John's words in Rev. 20 and Rev. 12 about Satan's binding and loosing DO NOT HAVE TO BE ABOUT THE FUTURE.  Remember, way back in Rev. 1:19, John was told to "Write the things which thou HAST seen" (PAST events for John's time) "and the things which ARE" (PRESENT realities back then) "and the things which are ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER" (events SOON to transpire in John's future).

The literal 1,000-year millennial binding of Satan that began in John's ancient past (968/967 BC with Solomon's temple foundation stone), lasted until John's more recent past with the loosing of Satan (in AD 33 when Christ first ascended to His Father on His resurrection day).  The "short time" and "little season" (following after the millennium's expiration in AD 33) when Satan was plaguing the world for that brief period was ONGOING as John was writing. 

Rev. 12:12 leaves no doubt that Satan's loosing AFTER THE MILLENNIUM's EXPIRATION was THEN a present reality for John's readers.

[Rella]

Good morning back atcha Rella,

Sun is trying to shine here, and I should be outside taking down two metal porch pillars, but it's definitely easier to post comments than to wrestle with metal poles when you're 60.

I would love to be taking your metal poles down. I could have that done much sooner then my typing this simply because my space bar on this laptop, does not space many of the words ( my error a few years back) so I have to not only correct the misspells but separate the a lot of the words manually...

Nope...not looking for sympathy, just explaining how I can be so slow at times.

Anyway, I used to do my own drapery and window covering installations ( after making them) and I kind of miss the construction/installation end of things. Cornices and the like) So any chance I get to involve in building or take down I am right there.

First of all, the silence from Timothy (if he survived past AD 70) about the second coming and resurrection in AD 70 was very prudent.  As a church leader charged to protect the flock, evangelism had to be somewhat discreet during those years following their AD 66 flight as refugees.   Nero's prophesied holocaust waged against the Christians for 3-1/2 years as the "little horn" (from AD 64-68) had only just barely passed.

Let's address this for a minute. I have read he actually died in 97AD.  That tracks with him running the church.

Also, hatred for Christians from those still stubbornly loyal to Judaism was still strong, and it would have only poured salt in their open wounds for Christians to boast "See?  We TOLD you Christ was going to come back and squash your temple and crush the nation of Israel to dust.  Wanna join our club now?"

IF the church's clergy ( as it were) still had a role to evangelize, even subtly, confirmation of what had been a prophesy of Jesus' would have gone along way to
do such. And it would have been reasonable for there to be secret writings secured in a place known by more then one person..

So no, it doesn't bother me that we currently don't have treatises on the AD 70 return of Christ authored by Timothy that were distributed throughout the known world and ensconced in a famous ancient library for preservation.  What DOES bother me is the assumption that nothing was ever written, because this kind of evidence has not come to light...YET.   Archaeology is an ongoing discovery, and as you know, we have not completely exhausted all discoveries at this point.  (By the way, did you take note of my mention of the true location of Abraham's cave of Machpelah near Hebron ...EMPTY of any human bones?)

Yes, I did take note of your mention of Abraham's grave. And I know we have not
exhausted all discoveries , Yet.

For the composition date of Revelation, from multiple pieces of internal evidence compared with each other, the date is narrowed down to a very specific time frame between late AD 59 and early AD 60 - absolutely no later than that.  I submitted these internal pieces of proof in this post link (comment #14): 

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/when-was-revelation-written/

I am not going into that again. We have exhausted the subject. But I will once again state that the mention of REv 20 talks in a future sense.

You asked for other scripture besides Rev. 20 that mention the millennium binding and then loosing of Satan for a brief time.  Easy.  Rev.12:12.  "...Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!" (both Israel and Gentile nations) "for the devil IS COME DOWN UNTO YOU" (A *PRESENT* condition for John's readers) "having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but A *SHORT TIME*."  This "short time" that was PRESENTLY GOING ON as John was writing proves that the millennium had ENDED and EXPIRED by then, when compared to Rev. 20:3&7.

I do not read it like that....

Read Rev 20 again....

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.

Yet Rev 12 says

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

This verse, actually this entire chapter has nothing to do with the millenium.
Where Satan will be bound for 1000 years. When Satan is bound he will be cast into the bottomless pit and when he is released for a bit he will not be coming down from anywhere.  For the devil has comedown to you....... does not say he was release to you. There was joy in heaven cause he was finally cast out.


Would you like an OT reference to the millennial binding of Satan?  Try Psalm 72:4 in the LXX - a prophetic Psalm with King David's last words as a prediction that his son Solomon "shall bring low the FALSE ACCUSER...". And we know that the "accuser of the brethren" is Satan, from Rev. 12:10, when the "accuser of the brethren" is cast out of heaven into the earth.

NKJV says He will bring justice to the poor of the people; He will save the children of the needy, And will [a]break in pieces the oppressor.

I hate to point it out to you what is so obvious. Neither  bringing low the False Accuser... nor break in pieces the oppressor gives the slightest hint to 1000 years, chains or binding in a bottomless pit or being loosed for a while. You cannot spin this to mean that.

Here's another found in Hannah's prophetic Magnificat as she praises God after giving her baby Samuel.   This also is in the LXX for I Samuel 2:10.  After predicting that God would raise the needy from the dung-hill and seat him with the princes of the people, causing the inheritance of the throne of glory, (David's ascending the throne), Hannah predicted that "The Lord will weaken His adversary".  This would be David's son Solomon that God would use to weaken Satan's deceptive influence in this world - Satan being the ultimate adversary of mankind.

Again, not referencing 1000 years, bound in a bottomless pit or being loosed for a while.

Scripture highlights Solomon with "weakening" and "bringing low the false accuser" Satan, because it was the ceremonial laying down of Solomon's temple foundation stone in 968/967 BC that began the literal 1,000-year millennium of a physical temple worship system.  This millennium of Satan's binding lasted until AD 33, when Christ Himself fulfilled this type by becoming the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple not made with hands.

John's words in Rev. 20 and Rev. 12 about Satan's binding and loosing DO NOT HAVE TO BE ABOUT THE FUTURE.  Remember, way back in Rev. 1:19, John was told to "Write the things which thou HAST seen" (PAST events for John's time) "and the things which ARE" (PRESENT realities back then) "and the things which are ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER" (events SOON to transpire in John's future).

The literal 1,000-year millennial binding of Satan that began in John's ancient past (968/967 BC with Solomon's temple foundation stone), lasted until John's more recent past with the loosing of Satan (in AD 33 when Christ first ascended to His Father on His resurrection day).  The "short time" and "little season" (following after the millennium's expiration in AD 33) when Satan was plaguing the world for that brief period was ONGOING as John was writing. 

Rev. 12:12 leaves no doubt that Satan's loosing AFTER THE MILLENNIUM's EXPIRATION was THEN a present reality for John's readers.

Rev 12:12 is stand alone in tht it is Satan being thrown out of heaven.
NO 1000 years, NO bottomless pit, and No being loosed for a little while.

Sorry. I maintain it still has not happened yet.

[3 Resurrections]

Hey again Rella,

One metal porch pole down...one to go.  With your fondness for building construction, you probably could have pitched right in along with the daughters of Shallum and helped their father build their section of the wall of Jerusalem in Nehemiah 3:12.  Those were some gutsy ladies.

If you can't agree with the references I gave above for the binding of Satan from 968-967 BC, then perhaps you can agree with Christ's words on the subject in Matt. 12:28-29.  THIS is the origin of John's more complete account about the millennial binding of Satan.

After Christ had cast out the devil from the deaf and blind man, to prove to the disbelieving Pharisees that He was doing this by God's power, He said, "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come down unto you.  Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he *FIRST* BIND THE STRONG MAN?  And THEN he will spoil his house."

Here, Christ explained His ability to THEN be spoiling Satan of his possessions (by casting out demons from people) because HE HAD FIRST *ALREADY* BOUND HIM EARLIER. This means the Rev. 20 binding of Satan was an ONGOING PRESENT REALITY in the days of Christ's ministry on earth. 

This millennial binding period for Satan was going to change at Christ's resurrection and the first ascension to His Father on that day.  We have two texts that prove when Satan would be cast out of heaven to earth for that "short time" and "little season".  They are John 12:31, spoken just 5 days before the Passover: "NOW is the judgment of this world: NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out."  (Meaning Satan was going to be cast out of heaven.) And at the Last Supper before His crucifixion, Christ again said in John 14:3 "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."  An enraged Satan was on his way, and would soon have no restrictions on his power to deceive the nations.

That Rev. 12 war in heaven between Michael and Satan's forces was going to take place while Christ was in the grave for 3 days and nights.  At His resurrection and first ascension that day, an ascending, victorious Christ forever annulled Satan's role as the accuser of the brethren.  On that morning in AD 33, Satan and his angels forever lost access to heaven's court and were cast out into the earth for that "short time" before they were destroyed in Jerusalem's Lake of Fire in AD 70.

Rella, I think you are getting hung up on the "cast DOWN TO EARTH" phrase compared to Satan supposedly being in a different location of the bottomless pit for a thousand years.  This "abyss" is NOT A LOCATION per se, that could be put on a map.  It's a RESTRICTED CONDITION or a NON-FUNCTIONING STATUS.   

Christ Himself was said to have been in the "abyss", which is particularly defined for us in Romans 10:7.  "...Who shall descend into the deep?" (the abyss) "(THAT IS, to bring Christ again from the dead.)". Here, the "abyss" or the "bottomless pit" is defined as the status of inactivity accompanying death.  You can't map this with a compass as a location somewhere.  It's a condition. 

So Satan could be in a RESTRICTED CONDITION (the abyss) of having his deception over the nations limited for a literal thousand years, and still be able to have access as the "accuser of the brethren" in heaven during those thousand years from 968/967 BC until AD 33.  That was the date when the millennial restriction on his deception was lifted for a "short time" and a "little season", which lasted only until his AD 70 destruction.

Satan's "short time" of wrath against mankind in Rev. 12:12 and his "little season" of being loosed to deceive the nations in Rev. 20:3 are talking about the SAME BRIEF TIME PERIOD - the one immediately following the expiration of the millennium.

[Rella]

Hey again Rella,

One metal porch pole down...one to go.  With your fondness for building construction, you probably could have pitched right in along with the daughters of Shallum and helped their father build their section of the wall of Jerusalem in Nehemiah 3:12.  Those were some gutsy ladies.

If you can't agree with the references I gave above for the binding of Satan from 968-967 BC, then perhaps you can agree with Christ's words on the subject in Matt. 12:28-29.  THIS is the origin of John's more complete account about the millennial binding of Satan.

After Christ had cast out the devil from the deaf and blind man, to prove to the disbelieving Pharisees that He was doing this by God's power, He said, "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come down unto you.  Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he *FIRST* BIND THE STRONG MAN?  And THEN he will spoil his house."

Here, Christ explained His ability to THEN be spoiling Satan of his possessions (by casting out demons from people) because HE HAD FIRST *ALREADY* BOUND HIM EARLIER. This means the Rev. 20 binding of Satan was an ONGOING PRESENT REALITY in the days of Christ's ministry on earth. 

This millennial binding period for Satan was going to change at Christ's resurrection and the first ascension to His Father on that day.  We have two texts that prove when Satan would be cast out of heaven to earth for that "short time" and "little season".  They are John 12:31, spoken just 5 days before the Passover: "NOW is the judgment of this world: NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out."  (Meaning Satan was going to be cast out of heaven.) And at the Last Supper before His crucifixion, Christ again said in John 14:3 "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."  An enraged Satan was on his way, and would soon have no restrictions on his power to deceive the nations.

That Rev. 12 war in heaven between Michael and Satan's forces was going to take place while Christ was in the grave for 3 days and nights.  At His resurrection and first ascension that day, an ascending, victorious Christ forever annulled Satan's role as the accuser of the brethren.  On that morning in AD 33, Satan and his angels forever lost access to heaven's court and were cast out into the earth for that "short time" before they were destroyed in Jerusalem's Lake of Fire in AD 70.

Rella, I think you are getting hung up on the "cast DOWN TO EARTH" phrase compared to Satan supposedly being in a different location of the bottomless pit for a thousand years.  This "abyss" is NOT A LOCATION per se, that could be put on a map.  It's a RESTRICTED CONDITION or a NON-FUNCTIONING STATUS.   

Christ Himself was said to have been in the "abyss", which is particularly defined for us in Romans 10:7.  "...Who shall descend into the deep?" (the abyss) "(THAT IS, to bring Christ again from the dead.)". Here, the "abyss" or the "bottomless pit" is defined as the status of inactivity accompanying death.  You can't map this with a compass as a location somewhere.  It's a condition. 

So Satan could be in a RESTRICTED CONDITION (the abyss) of having his deception over the nations limited for a literal thousand years, and still be able to have access as the "accuser of the brethren" in heaven during those thousand years from 968/967 BC until AD 33.  That was the date when the millennial restriction on his deception was lifted for a "short time" and a "little season", which lasted only until his AD 70 destruction.

Satan's "short time" of wrath against mankind in Rev. 12:12 and his "little season" of being loosed to deceive the nations in Rev. 20:3 are talking about the SAME BRIEF TIME PERIOD - the one immediately following the expiration of the millennium.

NO.

Look at the entire segment....

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? As Jesus was talking he was talking as if there was the very real possibility ( though would not be) that Satan could cast out himself... as if Satan was walking around deceiving the people and needed to be done away with.

IF SATAN was already bound He would have said something like "Had Satan cast out Satan his house was divided and could not stand..."

27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

and then He uses a parable for example.

29 Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. This has nothing to do with the binding of Satan, and zero reference to 1000 years anywhere. Not even in the prophetic future.

30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.


Here, Christ explained His ability to THEN be spoiling Satan of his possessions (by casting out demons from people) because HE HAD FIRST *ALREADY* BOUND HIM EARLIER. This means the Rev. 20 binding of Satan was an ONGOING PRESENT REALITY in the days of Christ's ministry on earth.

Do you truly think that Satan would have needed to be bound for Jesus to cast out demons? Really?

Do you truly think Jesus was not strong enough or able enough without Satan gone?

You do realize... or perhaps you do not believe...that even today there is Demon possession of some folks. So if Satan is gone, what is that all about?

I can assure you that each and every mention of binding or 1000 years within the four corners of God's Holy Words has a future tense ring to it.

The bible was not written by the "My Pillow " guys first woman ad when she says (simple example)
"When I got my pillow, (indicates past) I'm asleep immediately,( indicates present) and I stay asleep (indicates future).....all in one sentence.

Now, I am going to stop and not follow through the rest of your reply... at least not at the moment.

I will leave with saying there is little more to be said on this subject, at this point.

Nope... cannot just leave it.


We have two texts that prove when Satan would be cast out of heaven to earth for that "short time" and "little season".  They are John 12:31, spoken just 5 days before the Passover: "NOW is the judgment of this world: NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out."  (Meaning Satan was going to be cast out of heaven.) And at the Last Supper before His crucifixion, Christ again said in John 14:3 "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."

This comment is contradictory. If Satan had been bound in the bottomless pit he was not in heaven to be cast out.

As to your 2nd comment John 14:3... "the prince of this world commeth" ~

He did not say Satan would be loosed for while...

I am not confused as to the location of the bottomless pit. I will not agree it could be in heaven as all mentioned about it seems to argue against that... but I do believe it could be in space somewhere.... There is much out there we will never know.

So Satan could be in a RESTRICTED CONDITION (the abyss) of having his deception over the nations limited for a literal thousand years, and still be able to have access as the "accuser of the brethren" in heaven during those thousand years from 968/967 BC until AD 33.  That was the date when the millennial restriction on his deception was lifted for a "short time" and a "little season", which lasted only until his AD 70 destruction.

This entire comment you simply cannot prove. As yet I cannot disprove.....  But I am working on it.

Now time to go do dinner and get ready for the debate.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

However, I seriously doubt that Jesus would have used anything other then a straight forward answer to talk of His own return directly to His disciples.

...

This was not in public where often parables were used but to His very chosen people and they would have and should have expected a straight answer.

Mark 4:34  But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

You're right, but that doesn't rule out the other thing being true.  First, this may have been a straight answer to the disciples.  They may have known exactly what that meant.

Second, it may be that Matthew has acted here to protect the reader.  This is the reason apocalyptic language is usually used, after all.

Like, suppose it wasn't written apocalyptically, and you (1st century Jewish guy) were carrying this scroll when some zealots decided to conscript you.  They read your scroll predicting the fall of the Jewish government, and well... you're guilty of spreading enemy propaganda.  Off with your head!

Instead, Matthew engages in a little obfuscation, and everyone gets to keep their head. :)

Jarrod

[Rella]

Mark 4:34  But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

You're right, but that doesn't rule out the other thing being true.  First, this may have been a straight answer to the disciples.  They may have known exactly what that meant.

Second, it may be that Matthew has acted here to protect the reader.  This is the reason apocalyptic language is usually used, after all.

Like, suppose it wasn't written apocalyptically, and you (1st century Jewish guy) were carrying this scroll when some zealots decided to conscript you.  They read your scroll predicting the fall of the Jewish government, and well... you're guilty of spreading enemy propaganda.  Off with your head!

Instead, Matthew engages in a little obfuscation, and everyone gets to keep their head. :)

Jarrod

That actually makes sense. 

Also then that would be why ,having Jesus saying...

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

that when it actually happened it was by group consensus that no one would say a thing.

It would be a secret among them they would take to their graves.

Yeah, I can see that...

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

It would be a secret among them they would take to their graves.

I guess you haven't read anything from the period just after the New Testament. 

[Rella]

I guess you haven't read anything from the period just after the New Testament. 

Please pardon any mis-spells. My spell check is not working at all on this laptop.

I am not sure of what you are referencing. That of the torment that the followers of Jesus suffered and the circumstances of their horrible deaths? Yes I have, and you are right that they would have been in trouble if anything that was pro-Jesus was ever foud on them .

But this, right here.... Your Mark 4:34  But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Clarifies to me that when possibly overheard, it was through parables, but when alone
He explained with clarity.

He and His disciples... at least 4 that were mentioned in  Mark, "Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately "  , and they were alone on the mount of Olives. There would have been zero reason for him to speak in parables for it would be imperative that they clearly understood as this was about the end f the age.

So when he told them "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." That tells me that there were some who would have known but did they take it to their grave so NO ONE would ever know what was happeneing when it happened?

Peter died between 64 and 68 AD, and could not have seen Him.
James died in 62AD, also could not have seen Him.
Andrew died between 60 and 70 AD, could not have seen Him.

But  the one that was around at the temple destruction John, who could have seen Him.

John  died sometime after 98AD  ( and I am of the firm belief this is the John who wrote Revelation)

Now,

I have read, though not exhaustively, the historians and of things that were written for the 1st century, seeking and searching any single reference, no matter how vague that would prove first a definitive date for the writing of Revelation and second and most importantly that when it is said in

Mathew .... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Mark ...Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke ... Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Did infact take place in or around 70AD.

There is nothing and I can only conclude that that statement, made by Jesus, in private, is for the future when the end will be the end for all.

Otherwise,  if it did happen it was in total secrecy and only meant for a select few. And everything I have based my life around
is a lie.

[3 Resurrections]

Hey again Rella,

Second metal porch pole down... ...this is a 60-year old doing an awkward happy dance...concrete footings next week...

Ok, where were we?  You said in your comment last Tuesday that "...If Satan had been bound in the bottomless pit he was not in heaven to be cast out."

This shows you are still laboring under the false impression that the "bottomless pit" (abysson) is an actual location.  It's not.  It's a RESTRICTED CONDITION or a NON-FUNCTIONING STATUS.  Just like that was not a literal metal chain or a literal seal put on Satan the angelic being.  This is symbolic language of non-physical realities.

As I said before, this same "bottomless pit" was what Christ experienced while His body lay dead for 3 days and nights.  Christ's body was never "gone" while He was bound with the "cords of death" (Acts 2:24) while in the "bottomless pit" (the "abysson" in Rom. 19:7).  His body was just rendered inoperable for a time until He glorified it by His resurrection.  Just like Satan was never "gone" from being present on earth or with access to heaven during the literal 1,000 years when he was restricted from freely deceiving the nations (968/967 BC until AD 33). 

So NO, this is NOT a contradictory statement to say that Satan, while "chained" in the "bottomless pit" (abysson) by the limit put on his deceptive powers, could still be present in heaven battling Michael and his angels while Christ was also bound by the cords of death in the "abysson" for those 3 days and nights.  Christ and Satan at this point in time were both in a restricted condition - Christ VOLUNTARILY submitting to this, and Satan INVOLUNTARILY having to submit to God restricting his deception for those literal 1,000 years.

Once Satan was loosed to freely deceive the nations once more (like a "roaring lion") for that "short time" and "little season" immediately following Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33, the saints were promised victory over him at the end of that "short time".  Paul gives the Romans this promise in Romans 16:20. "And the God of peace shall crush Satan under your feet SHORTLY." 

Satan did not have much longer to exist after Romans was written (around AD 60) before he would "SOON" be crushed underfoot by the "Seed of the woman", as promised long, long ago in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 3:15).  The saints as being "in Christ" would *SHORTLY* (in AD 70) be sharing in the victory of Christ, the Seed of the Woman, over mankind's great enemy.

So NO, anybody who claims demon possession is possible today, (after AD 70's crushing of Satan) is confusing demon possession with the demented behavior of malfunctioning minds, especially those of the unregenerate.  To believe that demon possession is ongoing today contradicts every promise in scripture of WHEN God would reduce Satan and his demonic realm to literal "ashes upon the earth" back in AD 70.  And yes, I can prove this from a group of various scripture texts.

Stories of supposed modern-day demon possession only supply mammoth sales of books and seminars on the subject, and add fuel to the fear of the spirit world, which we are forbidden to idolize.  Follow the money.  "Mother church" has traditionally used fear of the Satanic realm and the supposed fires of a tormenting, perpetual Hell to hold their people in subservience to their control.  This tradition has unfortunately leaked into Christian dogma and is firmly taught as gospel truth by the majority of the deceived.

Rella, you seem to think it's impossible for Revelation 20 to be giving a biography of Satan's former history.  Remember, Rev. 1:19 allows for things PAST, PRESENT, and ABOUT TO COME in John's near future.  This Rev. 20 biography of Satan's PAST history provided a background for describing what he was PRESENTLY doing back then, as well as what he was ABOUT TO DO in the NEAR future for John's readers.  That biography included the setting of the 12 disciples on 12 thrones, with "judgment given unto them" (Rev. 20:4 compared to Matt. 19:28) to judge the 12 tribes of Israel in those years of the early church after Pentecost. 

The millennium of Rev. 20 is inextricably linked with immediately following the "FIRST resurrection", (Rev. 20:5) which is none other than that of "Christ the FIRST-fruits" and the Matt. 27:52-53 saints who all came to life again when the millennium of Satan's binding had expired in AD 33.   

The Rev. 20 millennium is NOT a future expectation for us, because the "FIRST resurrection" that immediately followed it is definitely an event that took place in the past.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

He explained with clarity.

Yes, I agreed with you on this point.  I just think that can be true, and a non-literal reading still works.  I won't belabor the point, I explained already.

I have read, though not exhaustively, the historians and of things that were written for the 1st century, seeking and searching any single reference, no matter how vague that would prove first a definitive date for the writing of Revelation

This seems to be a hot topic for preterism.  I will give you my view... well, the short version anyway.

I think Revelation is a work of multiple authorship. 

I believe the original text was written before 70AD, and was written as an apocryphon.  That is to say, it included all the visions and symbolism, but none of the explanations of those visions.  I believe that someone else came back and added those explanations to the text after 70AD.

That definitely isn't the usual preterist viewpoint.  I'm not sure if I count as a preterist or not... my views are similar to preterists in a lot of points, but completely diverge from them in other places.

...and second and most importantly that when it is said in

Mathew .... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Mark ...Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke ... Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Did in fact take place in or around 70AD.

There is nothing and I can only conclude that that statement, made by Jesus, in private, is for the future when the end will be the end for all.

Otherwise,  if it did happen it was in total secrecy and only meant for a select few. And everything I have based my life around
is a lie.

I've been there.  I came up in a Pentecostal pre-trib church, and the theology was all built around looking forward to the rapture.  I no longer believe that.  Here's what I think now...

I believe Christ came in 70AD in judgment on the Jews, and to destroy the old temple system once and for all, as promised.  I believe that Christ began his "millennial reign" at that time, and that He reigns to this day in that same capacity.  This is the part that's similar to preterist beliefs.

But I also believe that millennial reign will come to an end.  Once Jesus has completed His work, the universe as we know it will come to an end, and there will be a final judgment (that White Throne Judgment of Revelation 21).  This is the part that's not very preterist-y.

1Corinthians 15 was helpful to me:

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jarrod

[Rella]

LOL. I must say this has had me searching these old brain cells for things long filed, thinking I might never need them again.... NO,not complaining mind you. And really is a great mental exercise in many areas.

Quote from: Rella on Today at 08:58:46
He explained with clarity.

Yes, I agreed with you on this point. 

Wow. I think that might make the third time you and I agreed on something.

I just think that can be true, and a non-literal reading still works.  I won't belabor the point, I explained already.

And I wont explain my disagreement , again.

Quote from: Rella on Today at 08:58:46
I have read, though not exhaustively, the historians and of things that were written for the 1st century, seeking and searching any single reference, no matter how vague that would prove first a definitive date for the writing of Revelation

This seems to be a hot topic for preterism.  I will give you my view... well, the short version anyway.

I think Revelation is a work of multiple authorship.

VERY VERY interesting idea. Worthy of my pursuit.

I believe the original text was written before 70AD, and was written as an apocryphon.  That is to say, it included all the visions and symbolism, but none of the explanations of those visions.  I believe that someone else came back and added those explanations to the text after 70AD.

VERY, VERY, VERY  interesting idea, indeed. . I am excited to really look into this possibility. But that would make the millenium and all a future event and not on the heels of Jesus' appearing in c.70AD.

That definitely isn't the usual preterist viewpoint.  I'm not sure if I count as a preterist or not... my views are similar to preterists in a lot of points, but completely diverge from them in other places.

We can call you a quasi-preterist.

Quote from: Rella on Today at 08:58:46
...and second and most importantly that when it is said in

Mathew .... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Mark ...Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke ... Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Did in fact take place in or around 70AD.

There is nothing and I can only conclude that that statement, made by Jesus, in private, is for the future when the end will be the end for all.

Otherwise,  if it did happen it was in total secrecy and only meant for a select few. And everything I have based my life around
is a lie.

I've been there.  I came up in a Pentecostal pre-trib church, and the theology was all built around looking forward to the rapture.

I came up in a very MAINLINE Protestant "Presbyterian" Church.  There was no discussion or talk or teaching on anything other then the basics. No real talk of what would happen when we died, or specifics about Jesus returning. There was some basic hell fire and damnation preaching and then how "we"escaped that because Jesus died for our sins on the cross.

I never heard of the rapture until I was in my early 30s. (Not exactly true. Waiting for the school bus one day, I was13 or 14 , my neighbor friend was talking about "the Rapture" and that Jesus would not return to judge people until the word was preached in every corner of the world and it was not preached there yet.... She was a Baptist. And as soon as I got home that day I remember asking my mother if we believe in that Rapture. She said no... so that settled it for me.)

Then  one day, in the late 1970's... I would have been 32 or 33 I heard, for the first time in my life, as I was channel surfing one Saturday night... Jack Van Impe mentioning the word Rapture.... And at the time he sounded on point. And I got very hooked . That started me on a thirst for knowledge of every thing Jesus and God.

Do I believe in the pre-trib rapture now. NO. But will admit to wishing it was true.

I no longer believe that.  Here's what I think now...

I believe Christ came in 70AD in judgment on the Jews, and to destroy the old temple system once and for all, as promised.

I almost can see that. It sounds reasonable and would be a logical reason why it was not written down because it was only for them.

One tell on that might be (?) when Jesus said "  then all the tribes of the earth will mourn " Tribes being the operative word. It was meant for them only.............

I believe that Christ began his "millennial reign" at that time, and that He reigns to this day in that same capacity.  This is the part that's similar to preterist beliefs.

But I also believe that millennial reign will come to an end.  Once Jesus has completed His work, the universe as we know it will come to an end, and there will be a final judgment (that White Throne Judgment of Revelation 21).  This is the part that's not very preterist-y.

Well, we are totally so opposite on this.
If the Millennial reign of Jesus began in 70AD then it was completed in 1070.
Millennial reign is 1000 years. You cannot make it stretch any longer.
Checking into various descriptions and definition for a biblical millennial reign I find.
Websters:
1a: the thousand years mentioned in Revelation (see REVELATION sense 3) 20 during which holiness is to prevail and Christ is to reign on earth
b: a period of great happiness or human perfection

This IS the definition I believe. In addition I believe it represents the seventh day.the day God rested.

You seem to indicate a belief in an millenial view that  of a figurative view of the millenium which is much longer then that thousand years. (Though as I recall I think a true amillennial considers the start of such at Jesus' ascension.)

As to the millenium coming to and end. YES! And so will the end of the age, end. AND there will be a "Great White Throne Judgement".  On this we agree also.

1Corinthians 15 was helpful to me:

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This works for me also.
But generally, simply saying, we just do not agree on most.

[Larry H]

Greetings again

Full Preterism/Covenant Eschatology follows Partial Preterism. F.P Simply all prophecy was fulfilled in the first century. Resurrection etc. At the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. 

Dan 12:7  "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed"

That is the events proceeding/ Daniel 12.1-6 Max Kings Cooperate Body View "CBV" Which systematic Christianity calls a heresy. Even before investigating. 

Just as the Jews missing the first coming of Christ, Christians today missed the second coming which took place in Jesus's generation in the first century. According to the F.P view.