Interpretations and Eagles

[mike]

Good story, Emily.

Great example of a paradigm shift. Right or wrong, I don't ever think such "sea changes" can be comfortable for anyone.

You're right though -- if we don't have the courage to critically reappraise our stances on issues, we will lose out a lot in life.

Mike
:D

[SuziQ]

Emily,
I think your post states exactly why I have been "lurking" in this forum the past few weeks.  Acknowledging past mistakes is a painful process.  I would much rather bask in the comfort of what I've "always known" than have to admit my theology may be flawed.  That's not entirely true...I would not rather bask, but it does take extra effort to reprove or disprove what I always thought had already been proven.  And yet, isn't that how we grow and deepen our faith--constantly questioning and reaffirming our understanding of God?  
  I have found great comfort in reading of the struggles and successes of others in similar turmoil (in this forum).  I may not agree with every opinion stated here, but I love the freedom to share differing opinions.

[janine]

I can relate to the eagle thing.  Some of the horned owl females here in the swamps stand as tall as my youngest child.  I've been out on a lonely blacktop road between a canal and a swamp, on a black moonless night, with a flashlight, after a rain.  That's when the crawfish cross the road, you see.  You can pick up an ice chest full in no time.  (You try not to think about the occasional juvenile wandering black bear.  And you don't go out in alligator mating season.)

Anyway, the owls (most of them the smaller barred owls, bless my nerves) don't care that you're there.  They swoop down & grab frogs your feet disturb, or they snatch the very behemoth crawfish you were planning to pick up.  You can almost feel them as they're flying by you.  Such an encounter is exhilirating but shocking.

But it's not too scary, to me, to contemplate changes, or to try to get others to see what you've come to know, if you keep always in mind that God is God.

We have faith in Him, not faith in our own ability to scrape up a faith.  We have faith in the Eternal Creator, not in our beliefs about Him or about what He will or won't do.

To worry overmuch about the disposition of my bodywhen I won't need it any more never meant anything to me.  How many thousands of years' worth of 100% disintegrated bodies are all around us right now?  If a tomato plant grew on soil nutrients including some calcium from the bones of a Native American who was a resident of my neighborhood 500 years ago, and I ate the tomatoes, and that calcium was incorporated in my bones, will it be beyond my God to resurrect both me and my mineral benefactor on the last day?

Anyhow, the ideas we get from Scripture re: what happens in what order after we die, and what happens in what order after the "elements melt with fervent heat", haven't ended up on my Shibboleth list.

Did any of that make sense at all?  Does it seem as if I'm understanding you, Em?

[janine]

I suspect that's 'cause Booty has faith in God rather than in his own intellectual grasp on his faith in God. :p

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (nerdneh @ July 08 2002,3:51)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Booty, have you read Cahill's How the Irish Saved Civilization? It's a book that makes you rethink some things as well. We should not be frightened of change since not to change is to die. Hans Kuhn said this; "The moment you stop changing is the moment you die."

As far as the body thing, I Cor 15 tells us God will give us a new, resurrected body. I have no idea what this means, except the body we have now is totally inadequate for the experiences God has in store for us. "Things neither eye has seen nor ear heard."

Paul, in Phil 1, talks about dying as "gain" and going away and being with Christ. Luke 16 mentions the consciousness of those no longer on this earth (Lazarus, the rich man, etc.).

I am content to leave this in the Hands of the Most Competent God.[/quote]
To be sure Bob, it is the first in his Hinges of History series. The next volume is the Gifts of the Jews. Of the same high quality as the first volume. I understand he plans five more volumes and I am ready for the next one.

I also recommend his Desire of the Everlasting Hills: The World Before and After Jesus I have his Sailing to Byzantium on order forever. Maybe it will arrive someday!



Visit him here

[SuziQ]

Emily,
 I know you didn't really intend to start discussion on the resurrection, but I would like to add another possibility to the subject.  I believe it is more a question of how we view God in relation to time.  We seem to want to confine resurrection to time limitations we can understand. But, God is outside the realm of time.  He sees the here and now with the future also in sight.  
 With God's perspective in mind, at death we leave our constrains of time and also enter into "timelessness."  There is no lying around waiting for judgement day, because that day occurs as each person leaves time.
 Yes, there will still be a final day--on this earth--but it will move the remainder of those on earth into "God's time!"  

Just another possible scenario.
SuziQ

[Emily]

I have been involved in a discussion on another forum as to whether the physical body of a saved person has a spirit that goes to abide in heaven or paradise upon death, or if the body is just dead until Jesus resurrects it at the final judgement. I must admit the discussion has been challenging as I have never heard the latter interpretation. The other person makes some very good points, and it is somewhat unsettling to me.

Anyway...be that as it may...the point of my post is not that discussion but rather the experience of facing a possible change of a major belief when faced with new evidence or facts. Have any of you ever found yourself in the position of having believed something all your life, then suddenly realizing you were wrong?  It is an unsettling and sometimes frightening experience.

I shared this analogy on the other board, but  I would also like to share it here.  A few years ago, my husband and I were awakened in the middle of the night by a piercing scream outside our window. It shocked and frightened me, and I cringed in fear and pulled the sheet tighter around me, as my husband jumped up to check it out. When he looked out the window, he excitedly yelled for me to come and look. I was too frightened and would not go look out the window with him. After a few seconds he said, "You missed it! It was a beautiful golden eagle scooping up a mouse or something. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen!"  I have thought about that incident many times. I (and others I'm sure) often miss out on the beautiful things that happen spontaneously in our lives because we are too frightened to check them out. It might be a golden eagle or an unfamiliar interpretation of a false belief that leads one to truth. Both experiences are wonderful gifts to our lives. I do not want to miss out on something beautiful again because I am afraid to look outside my spiritual window.
Em

test

[seekr]

Em, this is exactly what happened to me. I always thought certain things, as I was taught that and it was what had always been taught in Christendom. Now everything has been undone as God changed my perspectives. At first it always feels as if you're the only one being shown something, because it seems so different than what you thought. But then you find others whom God has shared the truth with and it doesn't seem so frightening or unusual anymore. The truth is there for all--we just tend to listen to others who have been our leaders and mistrust ourselves. It does take an emptying of what we've learned and asking God to show us. And He will. Even when facing something you've never heard before, go to God for truth and He will teach you. He has not changed.

Maurine

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] (You try not to think about the occasional juvenile wandering black bear.  And you don't go out in alligator mating season.)[/quote]

And people think I live in the Third World!! :D

Emily,

Anyone who refuses to continually reevaluate their system of beliefs in my humble opinion wastes the very mind our Lord blessed them with.

I know the I constantly reevaluate my beliefs. I also know that my faith in the Lord has remained intact through each of these reevaluations and I am confident that it will continue to do so.

[Booty]

LOLOL!!   Grasping my intellect would be like herding cats!! I am Irish to the core! An Irish train of thought cannot run on rails, it is hard enough to couple the cars.

[nerdneh]

Booty, have you read Cahill's How the Irish Saved Civilization? It's a book that makes you rethink some things as well. We should not be frightened of change since not to change is to die. Hans Kuhn said this; "The moment you stop changing is the moment you die."

As far as the body thing, I Cor 15 tells us God will give us a new, resurrected body. I have no idea what this means, except the body we have now is totally inadequate for the experiences God has in store for us. "Things neither eye has seen nor ear heard."

Paul, in Phil 1, talks about dying as "gain" and going away and being with Christ. Luke 16 mentions the consciousness of those no longer on this earth (Lazarus, the rich man, etc.).

I am content to leave this in the Hands of the Most Competent God.

[nerdneh]

Well done Booty, I like Cahill's emphasis that he would like to look at history, not as one battle after another, but from the viewpoint of those great gift-givers who expended energy and time to hand down some precious treasure to the next generation.

Have you ever thought how much gentler and positive the history of religion would be, if instead of fighting each other so often, we had combined our energies in giving some precious gifts to those who followed us?