Plane Crash

[sopranette]

When someone rejects Jesus and does not repent, that is a sin so terrible, it will put a person in a position so acutely painful spiritually, it is as close to death in it's suffering.  It is not one sin, but a lifetime of rejecting God's Word. The verse does not say there are sins that cause death, but that that person is facing an eternity separated from God. "Unto death" is a way of saying someone is deathly ill, but not actually dead. That particular passage says we are to make an intercessory prayer for that brother.

love,

sopranette

[Mystery Man]

Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God.  Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Bonnie

Who was under the old covenant ?  Israel - right ?   But millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT,and they were not under the old covenant , correct ?   So what you are saying is that because they were not under the old covenant they are doomed ?

Israel was God's chosen people but not all of them were saved due to rebellion.
They did as God told them to, wiping out the enemy's of God.  I cannot say more.

Bonnie

Not everyone in the OT was the enemy of God, if they were not of the nation of Israel.

God even took some of Israel's names out of the book of life.  And they were under the old covenant.   Once someone's name is taken out of the book of life, there is only one destination, and it is not eternal life, but eternal death in the second death.

[Mystery Man]

When someone rejects Jesus and does not repent, that is a sin so terrible, it will put a person in a position so acutely painful spiritually, it is as close to death in it's suffering.  It is not one sin, but a lifetime of rejecting God's Word. The verse does not say there are sins that cause death, but that that person is facing an eternity separated from God. "Unto death" is a way of saying someone is deathly ill, but not actually dead. That particular passage says we are to make an intercessory prayer for that brother.

love,

sopranette

I John 3:15 says you can not pray for them

[chosenone]

if you die as a non Christian then you are not going to heaven. Jesus is the only way to the Father, surely the Bible is clear on that. Those who lived after Jesus came have no other way of being saved.
If many roads lead to heaven then Jesus lied. This is why we can never put off turning to Jesus becuase we can never know when we are going to die, and then it is to late. There are many who go along the wide path that leads to destruction and few who go along the narrow path that leads to life, sadly.

[sopranette]

No murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15  

Once again, this is a verse that is talking about unbelievers.  Read a little before that line.
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hates you. I John 3:13
He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 3:14
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer (an unbeliever who hates God's children in this case) hath eternal life abiding in him.

We already know those who reject Jesus are going to spend eternity separated from God, so we already know those who reject God and His Word do not have eternal life abiding in them.

love,

sopranette  

[OneLung]

It sounds like there may be some sort of "Grandfather" clause for people who lived before Jesus' time.

[sopranette]

When someone rejects Jesus and does not repent, that is a sin so terrible, it will put a person in a position so acutely painful spiritually, it is as close to death in it's suffering.  It is not one sin, but a lifetime of rejecting God's Word. The verse does not say there are sins that cause death, but that that person is facing an eternity separated from God. "Unto death" is a way of saying someone is deathly ill, but not actually dead. That particular passage says we are to make an intercessory prayer for that brother.

love,

sopranette

I John 3:15 says you can not pray for them

No, it doesn't.

love,

Sopranette

[sopranette]

It sounds like there may be some sort of "Grandfather" clause for people who lived before Jesus' time.

Not quite.  The Word was not made flesh yet.

love,

Sopranette

[Bonnie]

Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God.  Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Bonnie

Who was under the old covenant ?  Israel - right ?   But millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT,and they were not under the old covenant , correct ?   So what you are saying is that because they were not under the old covenant they are doomed ?

Israel was God's chosen people but not all of them were saved due to rebellion.
They did as God told them to, wiping out the enemy's of God.  I cannot say more.

Bonnie

Not everyone in the OT was the enemy of God, if they were not of the nation of Israel.

God even took some of Israel's names out of the book of life.  And they were under the old covenant.   Once someone's name is taken out of the book of life, there is only one destination, and it is not eternal life, but eternal death in the second death.

That's what I said not all of Israel was saved. I never said that everyone not of Israel was God's enemy.  I said I don't know about them.

[chosenone]

Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved.  It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from?  Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.

love,

Sopranette

Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice.   He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him. 

This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus.   This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.   

The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin.  All of us sin.  And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world.  All the sins of the world.  The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin.  Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.

The standard is not in just knowing him !   And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.

Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here.  Not a long conversation about generalities.

To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep.    If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  This is the standard by which the OP used .  And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called.  God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.  But not all will.  And that is not because they are evil people.  It is because they were not called.

peoples sins are not covered by Jesus unless they make Him their Lord. If everyones sins were forgiven what would be the point of being a Christian? The all roads lead to God is worng and entirely unBiblical

[Mere Nick]

Sorry I will believe the Bible over some pdf.


I agree with the OP.

I believe the bible and so does the one who wrote what is in the pdf.

[kensington]

"There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !"

Hearing of the Savior is not the criteria...   It is the witness of the Holy Spirit. 

The WORD says we have that witness in everything/nature around us in creation, that no man has excuse.  No man has an excuse to say there is no God, it is the witness in the hearts of man by the Holy Spirit and if they reject that, there is no excuse.

[Mystery Man]

When someone rejects Jesus and does not repent, that is a sin so terrible, it will put a person in a position so acutely painful spiritually, it is as close to death in it's suffering.  It is not one sin, but a lifetime of rejecting God's Word. The verse does not say there are sins that cause death, but that that person is facing an eternity separated from God. "Unto death" is a way of saying someone is deathly ill, but not actually dead. That particular passage says we are to make an intercessory prayer for that brother.

love,

sopranette

I John 3:15 says you can not pray for them

No, it doesn't.

love,

Sopranette

I gave you the wrong verse.  It is I John 5:16

[Mystery Man]

Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved.  It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from?  Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.

love,

Sopranette

Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice.   He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him. 

This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus.   This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.   

The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin.  All of us sin.  And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world.  All the sins of the world.  The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin.  Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.

The standard is not in just knowing him !   And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.

Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here.  Not a long conversation about generalities.

To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep.    If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  This is the standard by which the OP used .  And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called.  God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.  But not all will.  And that is not because they are evil people.  It is because they were not called.

peoples sins are not covered by Jesus unless they make Him their Lord. If everyones sins were forgiven what would be the point of being a Christian? The all roads lead to God is worng and entirely unBiblical

Chosenone

What would be the point of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ , if all who lived and died in the OT have no way of having their sins forgiven ?

Thousands of years pass in the OT and millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT.  If Jesus only died for Christians, what would that say about God ?  That he is a respector of persons ?

Yes, the only way to God is through our Lord Jesus Christ.  And that is what is expected of the church.   My sheep hear my voice.  Most of us are gentiles my nature.  But we are called the lost sheep of Israel.  Not of the nation of Israel, but of the Israel of God.   Israel also means - "ones ruling with God".  Christians rule with God.  Christians are made up of both Jews and Gentiles. All one in Christ.

But those who lived and died in the OT could never have known.  It was not made available to them, except through the prophets of the OT.  Millions upon millions were not of the nation of Israel and they lived and died without any knowledge of God whatsoever. 

God sent his son , not only to die for the Church , but for the rest of the world as well.  OT people as well as now and the future.  Up until such time that no one will come to a knowledge of the truth.

Only evil people go through the wrath of God period, called the great tribulation.  This is what we are "saved" from !  < This is our salvation that was promised.

Eternity is based upon the book of life, and if your name is in the book of life.

Rev. 20:15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

[Bonnie]

Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved.  It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from?  Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.

love,

Sopranette

Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice.   He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him. 

This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus.   This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.   

The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin.  All of us sin.  And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world.  All the sins of the world.  The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin.  Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.

The standard is not in just knowing him !   And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.

Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here.  Not a long conversation about generalities.

To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep.    If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  This is the standard by which the OP used .  And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called.  God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.  But not all will.  And that is not because they are evil people.  It is because they were not called.

peoples sins are not covered by Jesus unless they make Him their Lord. If everyones sins were forgiven what would be the point of being a Christian? The all roads lead to God is worng and entirely unBiblical

Chosenone

What would be the point of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ , if all who lived and died in the OT have no way of having their sins forgiven ?

Thousands of years pass in the OT and millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT.  If Jesus only died for Christians, what would that say about God ?  That he is a respector of persons ?

Yes, the only way to God is through our Lord Jesus Christ.  And that is what is expected of the church.   My sheep hear my voice.  Most of us are gentiles my nature.  But we are called the lost sheep of Israel.  Not of the nation of Israel, but of the Israel of God.   Israel also means - "ones ruling with God".  Christians rule with God.  Christians are made up of both Jews and Gentiles. All one in Christ.

But those who lived and died in the OT could never have known.  It was not made available to them, except through the prophets of the OT.  Millions upon millions were not of the nation of Israel and they lived and died without any knowledge of God whatsoever. 

God sent his son , not only to die for the Church , but for the rest of the world as well.  OT people as well as now and the future.  Up until such time that no one will come to a knowledge of the truth.

Only evil people go through the wrath of God period, called the great tribulation.  This is what we are "saved" from !  < This is our salvation that was promised.

Eternity is based upon the book of life, and if your name is in the book of life.

Rev. 20:15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

I don't understand where you get a lot of your ideas.  For instance, that Christ only died for the church.  He died for Sinners. Those that are whole need no physician. There really was no church in the sense of the word until the Apostles began forming them for both the Jew and the Gentile.  Of course God has always had a people.

Your name gets blotted out of the book of life for living a sinful life and not one according to the Will of God. There are only two groups of people as seen by the Lord and they are the saved and the unsaved.  Those who "hear His voice" are those who also are following in His footsteps.

Our sins aren't automatically forgiven.  We must repent and leave that lifestyle behind.

[chosenone]

Mystery man, I was talking about those who have lived since Jesus died for us who can only be save through Him. Those who lived before wont be judged in the same way of course.

[fanuvmxpx]

Mystery man, I was talking about those who have lived since Jesus died for us who can only be save through Him. Those who lived before wont be judged in the same way of course.

I wonder about this. Isn't our God powerful enough that Christ's blood could cover the sins of the past as well?

[kensington]

Your answer is in Hebrews.. 

[fanuvmxpx]

Your answer is in Hebrews.. 

I gotta start checking some of these at home where my Bible is

[OneLung]

Your answer is in Hebrews.. 

I gotta start checking some of these at home where my Bible is

Or, you could use the Bible Search function in the top menu. 

[Mystery Man]

Mystery man, I was talking about those who have lived since Jesus died for us who can only be save through Him. Those who lived before wont be judged in the same way of course.

Chosenone

Yes, of course.  We who are the called out.  But those on that plane who were not called out and died along with those who were, still can be covered by the blood of Christ. 
This is where we let God be the Judge.

No one is going to know him unless they are the called out.  But not all are called out.  Many, but not all.  That means we serve a purpose.  But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.

[sopranette]

But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.

...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life.  Those who believeth not are condemned already.

love,

sopranette

[Mystery Man]

Bonnie:

This is what Bigdog said >

" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."

Yes... and what he said is true.  I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it.  Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell.  Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes. 

I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic. 

Bigdog didn't judge anyone.  He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God.  GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell.  If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.

We know this much...  however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet.  That is the bottom line.  8 seconds is plenty of time. 

It is not intent to argue over this issue.  But I would like to share my view.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 

Some are called and some are not.  The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen.  Even the many are not "all".  Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .

There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour.  Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ?  I would say - No !

Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death.  But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?

If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin.  God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.

Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.

Unforgivable sin is the critera.

Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God .  That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus.  Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice.  We are called for a purpose.  So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.

God is no respector of persons.  So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering.  They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.

The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world.  Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future.  This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners.  He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.

Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death.  But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.

We who have been called and chosen know Jesus.  But not "all" have been called.  Only many.

No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved.  It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from?  Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.

love,

Sopranette

Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice.   He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him. 

This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus.   This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.   

The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin.  All of us sin.  And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world.  All the sins of the world.  The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin.  Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.

The standard is not in just knowing him !   And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.

Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here.  Not a long conversation about generalities.

To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep.    If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  This is the standard by which the OP used .  And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering.  You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called.  God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.  But not all will.  And that is not because they are evil people.  It is because they were not called.

peoples sins are not covered by Jesus unless they make Him their Lord. If everyones sins were forgiven what would be the point of being a Christian? The all roads lead to God is worng and entirely unBiblical

Chosenone

What would be the point of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ , if all who lived and died in the OT have no way of having their sins forgiven ?

Thousands of years pass in the OT and millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT.  If Jesus only died for Christians, what would that say about God ?  That he is a respector of persons ?

Yes, the only way to God is through our Lord Jesus Christ.  And that is what is expected of the church.   My sheep hear my voice.  Most of us are gentiles my nature.  But we are called the lost sheep of Israel.  Not of the nation of Israel, but of the Israel of God.   Israel also means - "ones ruling with God".  Christians rule with God.  Christians are made up of both Jews and Gentiles. All one in Christ.

But those who lived and died in the OT could never have known.  It was not made available to them, except through the prophets of the OT.  Millions upon millions were not of the nation of Israel and they lived and died without any knowledge of God whatsoever. 

God sent his son , not only to die for the Church , but for the rest of the world as well.  OT people as well as now and the future.  Up until such time that no one will come to a knowledge of the truth.

Only evil people go through the wrath of God period, called the great tribulation.  This is what we are "saved" from !  < This is our salvation that was promised.

Eternity is based upon the book of life, and if your name is in the book of life.

Rev. 20:15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

I don't understand where you get a lot of your ideas.  For instance, that Christ only died for the church.  He died for Sinners. Those that are whole need no physician. There really was no church in the sense of the word until the Apostles began forming them for both the Jew and the Gentile.  Of course God has always had a people.

Your name gets blotted out of the book of life for living a sinful life and not one according to the Will of God. There are only two groups of people as seen by the Lord and they are the saved and the unsaved.  Those who "hear His voice" are those who also are following in His footsteps.

Our sins aren't automatically forgiven.  We must repent and leave that lifestyle behind.

Bonnie

Those dead can not change and they can not ask for forgiveness.  Those who are alive, yet they are not called, do not have to ask for forgiveness of their sins .  We who are called repent (change) because we have been given an enlightenment to change.  Those who are not called out, will never change nor will they ever repent.  And God is not asking them too.

God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.  He is the saviour of the body, but also  the saviour of the world.  Living, dead, or future people who live or die.  Our sins are taken care of.  It was accomplished on the cross.

Too many people confuse salvation with eternity.  Salvation deals with being saved for or from, not unto !

We are saved from the wrath to come.  We serve God to bring the light unto the world.  Some people are not called, and they will never see eye to eye on the salvation we offer them. However, we can also show them through  our righteous walks, that we are the lights of the world.  And that eternity is because of the sacrifice of God's Son, and that his death and resurrection was for the whole world.  And the sins of the world.  The Apostle Paul used this comment more than once - "for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear let them hear".  We bring forth the light.  We proclaim that all mankinds sins have been forgiven through Jesus Christ.  But we also warn them of sin that is not forgivable.  Murder being one.  

Jesus Christ said he was the resurrection and the life.   This we proclaim to the world.  We as Christians hear his voice and we have heard our calling, and accepted our salvation through Christ.

[Mystery Man]

But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.

...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life.  Those who believeth not are condemned already.

love,

sopranette

This is a myth !  It is a myth because you are not reading context.  The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world.   We as Christians condem murder.  We as Christians condemn stealing.  We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc.  We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness.  This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins . 

Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation.  But that is just not true.   Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe.  Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin. 

The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts.  We must speak out against unrighteousness.  When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.

This world is waxing worse and worse.  We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law.  As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.

[sopranette]

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This is really basic stuff.

love,

sopranette

[sopranette]

But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.

...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life.  Those who believeth not are condemned already.

love,

sopranette

This is a myth !  It is a myth because you are not reading context.  The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world.   We as Christians condem murder.  We as Christians condemn stealing.  We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc.  We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness.  This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins . 

Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation.  But that is just not true.   Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe.  Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin. 

The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts.  We must speak out against unrighteousness.  When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.

This world is waxing worse and worse.  We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law.  As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.

I will continue to speak out against those Christians who say Jesus is NOT the only way to the Father.

love,

sopranette

[OneLung]

Normally the wife gets the kids and house in a divorce. What's going to happen when gays start getting divorced? Will there have to be a special hearing to determine who, exactly, is the wife? Will they both go to hell for being gay AND getting a divorce? 

[Mystery Man]

But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.

...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life.  Those who believeth not are condemned already.

love,

sopranette

This is a myth !  It is a myth because you are not reading context.  The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world.   We as Christians condem murder.  We as Christians condemn stealing.  We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc.  We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness.  This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins . 

Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation.  But that is just not true.   Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe.  Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin. 

The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts.  We must speak out against unrighteousness.  When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.

This world is waxing worse and worse.  We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law.  As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.

I will continue to speak out against those Christians who say Jesus is NOT the only way to the Father.

love,

sopranette

He is the only way to the Father, no doubt about it.  But the world will not agree with you.  And that is understandable.  They are not called out.  But tell them anyways, because it is the truth.

[chosenone]

But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.

...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life.  Those who believeth not are condemned already.

love,

sopranette

This is a myth !  It is a myth because you are not reading context.  The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world.   We as Christians condem murder.  We as Christians condemn stealing.  We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc.  We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness.  This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins . 

Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation.  But that is just not true.   Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe.  Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin. 

The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts.  We must speak out against unrighteousness.  When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.

This world is waxing worse and worse.  We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law.  As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.

I will continue to speak out against those Christians who say Jesus is NOT the only way to the Father.

love,

sopranette

He is the only way to the Father, no doubt about it.  But the world will not agree with you.  And that is understandable.  They are not called out.  But tell them anyways, because it is the truth.

DoesNt the BibLe say that God os not partial to anyone or towards anyone ?

[Mystery Man]

But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.

...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life.  Those who believeth not are condemned already.

love,

sopranette

This is a myth !  It is a myth because you are not reading context.  The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world.   We as Christians condem murder.  We as Christians condemn stealing.  We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc.  We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness.  This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins . 

Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation.  But that is just not true.   Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe.  Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin. 

The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts.  We must speak out against unrighteousness.  When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.

This world is waxing worse and worse.  We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law.  As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.

I will continue to speak out against those Christians who say Jesus is NOT the only way to the Father.

love,

sopranette

He is the only way to the Father, no doubt about it.  But the world will not agree with you.  And that is understandable.  They are not called out.  But tell them anyways, because it is the truth.

DoesNt the BibLe say that God os not partial to anyone or towards anyone ?

God does say that he is no respector of persons , yes.

[fanuvmxpx]

God does say that he is no respector of persons , yes.

Doesn't that then mean that a specific group 'called out' isn't possible? Because that would be partiality? God definitely chooses us, He created man, but man still has to "choose this day whom you will serve"

[Mystery Man]

God does say that he is no respector of persons , yes.

Doesn't that then mean that a specific group 'called out' isn't possible? Because that would be partiality? God definitely chooses us, He created man, but man still has to "choose this day whom you will serve"

No, and this is why.  Our being called out is for a purpose.  As I stated above in my previous posts.  We serve God.  We are the Israel of God. 

Jesus Christ is also the saviour of the world.  Salvation is for a purpose.  We are ambassadors for Christ.  Reconcilling the world unto God.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and murder are the two unforgivable sins.  All other sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ.   Those who lived and died in the OT are going to receive cleansing from the sin of death.   Which was the sin of Adam.   This is why there is going to be two different resurrections.  A resurrection of the Just and of the unjust.  Christians are cleansed in Christ.  The unjust will also be cleansed  , but only of the sin of death.

Everything God does is for a purpose.  For God is all love.  Except those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins, they have eternal life to look forward too.

[fanuvmxpx]

Everything God does is for a purpose.  For God is all love.  Except those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins, they have eternal life to look forward too.

What do you mean about those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins having eternal life? Eternal as in mortal flesh?

[Mystery Man]

Everything God does is for a purpose.  For God is all love.  Except those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins, they have eternal life to look forward too.

What do you mean about those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins having eternal life? Eternal as in mortal flesh?

Our names are put in the book of life.  The only way in which one's name can be taken out of the book of life is if God himself take one's name out of the book of life.

Murder is an unforgivable sin.  A murderer hath no eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which is Idolatry is also unforgivable - Matthew 12:31 & 32

"Blasphemy" means to speak out against / injuriously

[sopranette]

Murder is an unforgivable sin.  A murderer hath no eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15

AGAIN...the "murderer" in I John 3:15 is the unbeliever who hates God's children.

love,

Sopranette