Catholic-Anglican Reunion.

[desertknight]

Vatican will announce massive reception of Anglicans into Catholic Church on Tuesday.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=4371

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17436

"The news story, already anticipated by some Australian media, could be finally confirmed during the press briefing that was announced this afternoon by the Vatican press office,

[Amo]

All those who will not continue the Reformation, have nowhere else to go but back to Rome.  There will be many more in the near future no doubt.  All roads of this world lead to Rome.  Only the straight and narrow leads away from it.  She is destined, according to biblical prophecy, to once again ride not only the the kings of Europe again, but the kings of all the earth.  Anyone paying attention can see her ever expanding influence over the same.  Will Durant said it well.

     When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror.  The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome.  Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art.  When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind.  May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from their beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Enjoy the rise of Rome again while you can, it will be short lived.

[desertknight]

Yes, that must be it.  Satan has led them out of their "churches" that have embraced abortion and gay marriage and back to Christ's Church built on the rock of Peter and his faith that has stood for the truth of our Lord and Saviour for 2,000 years.  You got it.  

[mclees8]

All those who will not continue the Reformation, have nowhere else to go but back to Rome.  There will be many more in the near future no doubt.  All roads of this world lead to Rome.  Only the straight and narrow leads away from it.  She is destined, according to biblical prophecy, to once again ride not only the the kings of Europe again, but the kings of all the earth.  Anyone paying attention can see her ever expanding influence over the same.  Will Durant said it well.

     When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror.  The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome.  Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art.  When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind.  May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from their beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Enjoy the rise of Rome again while you can, it will be short lived.

You are right AMO. the ecumenical movement along with intefaith will bring many back to Rome to form a united religious faith. She will once again enjoy being the center of world religion and politics. I have a News paper article

the articles is headed up "POPE CALLS FOR A GROUP TO OVERSEE WORLD MARKETS"
Also quoted," United Nations and Other International Bodies real teeth to Prevent future rsis"  Eceyclical says.  

Her political ambitoins and united world religion are alive and well.

Lets remember REV 18  1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundancea of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
The Holy Bible  

[mclees8]

Yes, that must be it.  Satan has led them out of their "churches" that have embraced abortion and gay marriage and back to Christ's Church built on the rock of Peter and his faith that has stood for the truth of our Lord and Saviour for 2,000 years.  You got it.  

Here is the problem God people are being led around by many false shepherds. Even Protestant denominations have lost sight and are worldly. May are disgusted but because they are institutionalized and do not know how to stand on Christ  they will run to and fro to find anther organized church. But that is not the whole thing many denominational leadership are beginning to except the church of Rome and renewing their relationship. This will also become their destruction. 

Worldly ambition is at the heart of the Vatican. The aim is world peace and posterity religiously and politically. They are envloved with the UN whom they would like to become the enforcing world power and the New world order which is a hushed up thing to day.

[mclees8]


This article is from the New York Daily News  but you google it under Popes encyclical. it is #2 on the list.

A Pope's new world order: Pope Benedict XVI proposes stunningly radical approach to global economy
Editorials
Tuesday, July 7th 2009, 8:17 PM
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Pope Benedict's encyclical on economic justice, delivered amid the global financial meltdown, is an extraordinary document, both in its tough challenges and in the remarkably radical solutions it prescribes.
The pontiff focuses on moral dimensions of markets, globalization, consumerism, environmental protection, the role of technology, workers' rights and more. To call the document sweeping is an understatement.
Individually, many of Benedict's teachings are profound ethical and social statements. A few examples:
- "Once profit becomes the exclusive goal, if it is produced by improper means and without the common good as its ultimate end, it risks destroying wealth and creating poverty."
- "... there is no doubt that foreign workers, despite any difficulties concerning integration, make a significant contribution to the economic development of the host country."
- "What is meant by the word 'decency' in regard to work? It means work that expresses the essential dignity of every man and woman in the context of their particular society: work that is freely chosen, effectively associating workers, both men and women, with the development of their community; work that enables the worker to be respected and free from any form of discrimination; work that makes it possible for families to meet their needs and provide schooling for their children. ..."
- "Financiers must rediscover the genuinely ethical foundation of their activity, so as not to abuse the sophisticated instruments which can serve to betray the interests of savers."
Cumulatively, Benedict's diagnoses of global economic ills lead to a call for nothing short of "a profoundly new way of understanding human enterprise."
He would move toward markets geared to "redistribute" wealth from advanced to poorer countries and sees "urgent need of a true world political authority" to, among other tasks, "manage the global economy."
As we said, Benedict's encyclical, titled "Charity in Truth," is stunningly radical, notably in its prescriptions for the temporal order. There's no doubt that in urging the creation of something akin to a world government, he has established a landmark for his papacy and for Catholicism.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/07/08/2009-07-08_a_popes_new_world_order_benedict_proposes_stunningly_radical_approach_to_global_.html#ixzz0UgEzVBRC

[Amo]

Yes mclees8, it is obvious to anyone who is really paying attention.  Obama is now also calling for a group to oversee the world market.  If you want to know Obama's next move, just keep an eye on Rome.  All our Presidents are becoming increasingly Roman puppets, along with our congress, and our Supreme court. 

Take some time to study Romes economic and political thought, and you will see that it is being carried out by our government, against the will of the people.  I recommend the book ECCLESIASTICAL
MEGALOMANIA, The Economic and Political Thought of the Roman Catholic Church, by John W. Robbins.  You might as well read THE KEYS OF THIS BLOOD also, by Malachi Martin. 

The socialized medicine our government is moving toward also comes to us via Rome.  So does the apparent paralysis of our government to act upon the illegal immigration problem within our country.  Rome does not agree with the average American citizen on the issue, thus nothing we want done about it is happening.  Catholic Priests help them into the country, and stay here.  They are the ones who organized the marches in California where they were demanding citizenship.

Americans scream at the top of their lungs for action about the crises, but congress does nothing.  Yet, without any pressure from us, congress decided to give the Pope the congressional medal of honor a few years back.  This is not rocket science, anyone paying attention can see Romes influence taking over our government through the inundation of our government by Roman catholic politicians.  This is going on in many countries, not just here.

[desertknight]

Oh good grief you guys!  Your aluminium hats are on too tight. 

[Amo]

Ignoring the facts of events that are transpiring in front of your eyes, does not make them go away, or untrue.  In 1798, many thought the Papacy was at it's end.  Today, it is involved in influencing the political arena of virtually every nation on earth.  The deadly wound which the first beast of Revelation chapter thirteen received, is almost completely healed.  Soon, all the world will wonder after the beast. 

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

the United States is that second beast, through which the power of the first beast is healed, and restored.   Thus Rome's power and influence upon this nations government has already reached the point of no return.  She will exercise her will through it, and by it.

[mclees8]

Yes mclees8, it is obvious to anyone who is really paying attention.  Obama is now also calling for a group to oversee the world market.  If you want to know Obama's next move, just keep an eye on Rome.  All our Presidents are becoming increasingly Roman puppets, along with our congress, and our Supreme court. 

Take some time to study Romes economic and political thought, and you will see that it is being carried out by our government, against the will of the people.  I recommend the book ECCLESIASTICAL
MEGALOMANIA, The Economic and Political Thought of the Roman Catholic Church, by John W. Robbins.  You might as well read THE KEYS OF THIS BLOOD also, by Malachi Martin. 

The socialized medicine our government is moving toward also comes to us via Rome.  So does the apparent paralysis of our government to act upon the illegal immigration problem within our country.  Rome does not agree with the average American citizen on the issue, thus nothing we want done about it is happening.  Catholic Priests help them into the country, and stay here.  They are the ones who organized the marches in California where they were demanding citizenship.

Americans scream at the top of their lungs for action about the crises, but congress does nothing.  Yet, without any pressure from us, congress decided to give the Pope the congressional medal of honor a few years back.  This is not rocket science, anyone paying attention can see Romes influence taking over our government through the inundation of our government by Roman catholic politicians.  This is going on in many countries, not just here.

I can believe that whether you are serious or not. It really fits

My question is, is Christ church about political involvement at all ?

Was Jesus political? Were the apostles political? Did they ever try to be political? teach the church was to a political ambitious church in the moral political moral fabric of this world. ? If you think it was was, Why?  Is it about the  about the Gospel of Christ ?

If you cannot answer that then why is the papacy  up to its eyeballs in the Moral political fabric of this world?

I know that we are light for Christ in a dark world. But the early church was that long before political involvement?

What was Christ mission?   Surely if you be truly of Christ you can answer that.
Why is the apostate church called a Harlot?

What does it mean to not love the world or the things of it? 

You know so much about the catholic church then answer these questions. and then wonder why Jesus refused Satan's Temptation in the wilderness.

Jesus opened the eyes of the blind but only the ones who wanted to really see.

God bless

[mclees8]

Just another thought here. Why did he pope on his visit to the US go to the UN to counsel the leaders of the world about their moral responsibility in the world. Do you thnik they will ever stop or check the genocide and starvation in Africa. Oh they all say its terrible but they won't lift one finger to stop it, because its all about who is expendable in a delicate world balance of population verses its ability to feed it.

A tragic fact of life and don't think the pope does not know that.

god bless   

[Amo]

I can believe that whether you are serious or not. It really fits

My question is, is Christ church about political involvement at all ?

Was Jesus political? Were the apostles political? Did they ever try to be political? teach the church was to a political ambitious church in the moral political moral fabric of this world. ? If you think it was was, Why?  Is it about the  about the Gospel of Christ ?

If you cannot answer that then why is the papacy  up to its eyeballs in the Moral political fabric of this world?

I know that we are light for Christ in a dark world. But the early church was that long before political involvement?

What was Christ mission?   Surely if you be truly of Christ you can answer that.
Why is the apostate church called a Harlot?

What does it mean to not love the world or the things of it? 

You know so much about the catholic church then answer these questions. and then wonder why Jesus refused Satan's Temptation in the wilderness.

Jesus opened the eyes of the blind but only the ones who wanted to really see.

God bless

I am serious. 

[Amo]

                      11 THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL

John 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The power of the gospel message, and therefore, of the church, is the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. It is the Holy Spirit that leads and guides the church into all truth, and it is the Holy Spirit that glorifies Christ in and through his followers. People and institutions can accomplish nothing for the glory of God, apart from the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a result of conversion. Conversion comes only by way of conviction. Conviction comes by the reasoning power of the Holy Spirit, enlightening the mind to a knowledge of the word of God.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Ezek 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Every one must choose for themselves to accept, or reject the gospel message. The Lord Jesus Christ preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. He never used any other power than that of the Holy Spirit. This is because the gospel of the kingdom of God, is exactly that, a thing that is completely separate from the things, and powers of this world. It is a message that calls those who here it out of this world, to be citizens of the kingdom to come. Those who accept the message, must also accept the method of spreading it that God has ordained, which has nothing to do with the things of this world.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

God's people are instructed to preach this gospel of the kingdom in all the world. It is not until this is done, that the end will come, and Jesus will return. This gospel of the kingdom of God has been being preached in the world for nearly two thousand years now. Yet it still has not been preached in all the world. If the gospel continued to go forward in the power of the Holy Spirit, as rapidly as it did during the days of Jesus and the apostles, surely the end would have come already. The fact that this thing has not yet been accomplished, is a sure sign that something has gone wrong with the gospel message, or those who have been giving it. The question is, what has gone wrong? What did Christ and his apostles do, that has been changed or tampered with, that has hindered the spreading of the gospel message?

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.................................
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.....................
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus said that he could do nothing of his own self, but only the will of his Father. Christ did only those things which were pleasing to his Father, and these things he did through the power of the Holy Spirit. In like manner, Christ tells us that we can do nothing of our own selves, but only as we abide in him, that he might abide in us. This to, is accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit. In order for Christ's followers to bear much fruit in the preaching of the gospel, they must use nothing of themselves, or the powers of this world, but only the power of God and his kingdom. The things of this world cannot be successfully employed in the service of the kingdom of God, which is not of this world.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Even when Christ was going to be crucified, he would not use the methods, or powers of this world to deliver himself from the cross. This is only right, since he came into this world for the very purpose of being crucified, which thing in and of itself, is not of this world. Christ completely sacrificed himself, and his own will, for the salvation of humanity according to the will of his Father in heaven. The true follower of Christ will do the same. As soon as the individual Christian, or a corporate body of Christians seeks to preserve, or uplift itself, it has lost its power and connection with Christ. The only way to follow Christ is to pick up the cross, and sacrifice self to the will of God, which is the salvation of humanity. This is what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did. This is what his true followers must also do, completely separate from the powers of this world, if they wish to finish the gospel commission.

The Devil is the father of all in this world who have not accepted their own death in Christ, that Christ might live in and rule their lives. Satan is the one who wished to exalt himself  to the position of God. This is the mind set of this world, that is, self exaltation. Those who choose to follow Christ, have chosen the exaltation of God, in and through his Son Jesus Christ, over the exaltation of self. These two mind sets are completely opposed to each other, and cannot coexist together. Self exaltation, or preservation if you will, will always compromise selflessness. For this reason, the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit alone, is the power of the gospel unto salvation. For the Holy Spirit is indeed God, and completely separate from the things, and mind set of this world.

So we see, that the kingdom of God, and the kingdoms of this world must always remain separate. If those who say they are Christ's, begin to depend in any way upon the powers of this world for spreading the gospel, they will only compromise the message, and make it of none effect. This very thing is in fact what has retarded the work of God in the earth. It has hindered the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to the extent, that after two thousand years, the work is still far from done. This of course was a plan begun, and executed by the devil himself, in and through those who claimed to be Christians, but were only wolves in sheep's clothing. When the individual who calls them self a Christian, becomes like the world around them, they are no longer a witness for Christ. Just so, when the church becomes like the world around it, it cannot fulfill it's calling. The individual Christian, and the corporate body of the church, must remain separate from the world if they are to fulfill their commission.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Though the Lord Jesus Christ was in this world as a man, yet he was not of this world. So it will be with his true followers, though they are in this world, they are not of this world. So also will it be with Christ's true church, though it is in this world, it is not of this world. Christ's kingdom in this world, and the kingdoms of this world are, and must ever be, completely separate entities. If, or when they become combined, then the church is no longer Christ's.

This very thing is what the church of Rome has established in the world. This very thing is what the church of Rome is, in this world. She is the mother of all the churches that have become a part of this world. For she was the first "Christian" institution to accept the favor of this world on her behalf, in order to establish her power in this world. Or should it be said that she is the result of the first apostate Christians who sought after the powers of this world, over the power of the Holy Spirit for their establishment.

In any case, she is, and ever has been, hopelessly entangled with the politics and powers of this world. Preferring relationships with, and desiring the cooperation of the kings and governments of this world, over a relationship with and dependence upon the power of the Holy Spirit of God. As such, and in the name of Christ, she separates humanity from their God. Preventing the gospel message from going forth in the power of the Holy Spirit. She began a relationship between the church, and the state, that will last until Christ returns and ends all powers other than his own.

Once the Christian church, through the church of Rome, became entangled with the kings and governments of this world, she lost her power to save through the spreading of the gospel. By choosing the power of the state, over the power of the Holy Spirit, the church of Rome became the enemy of all who would truly follow Christ. The mind set of this world is self exaltation. When  the church put itself in the place of power in this world, all those seeking power in this world flocked to her. This they did in order to have power, for their own exaltation, a mindset completely opposed to that of the true gospel message. This is why the church of Christ must remain completely separate from the powers of this world in order to fulfill her commission. By maintaining a complete separation from this world, and depending only upon the power of the Holy Spirit, the church is able to confirm the mystery of godliness.(1Tim 3:16) However, when she becomes involved with the powers of this world, she is entangled with the mystery of iniquity.
(2Tim 2:3-14)

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication........................
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

The church of Rome is verily, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. For she is that institution which first, while claiming to be Christian, sought after, and acquired the power of the state. By committing fornication with the kings of the earth, she used the power of the state to enforce her dogmas, and persecute those who would not bow down and pay her homage. The blood of countless millions of the saints will testify to this fact in the judgment. Nor has she abandoned her quest for political power in this world. For she is every day advancing her political ties on a global scale. By doing so, she is bringing the world toward it's final crisis, and moment of decision described in the book of Revelation chapter thirteen.

When the church of Rome became a religio-political entity, she delivered a decisive blow to the spreading of the gospel message in the world. Having become the established church, through the power of the state, she compromised her ability to spread the gospel. As the established church, she persecuted those who did not bow to her authority. This included of course, the true followers of Christ, who were still giving the gospel message to the world. In this way, the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was impeded for well over a thousand years. Once this monster, or beast if you will, was created, it took nothing short of an act of God to reverse the damage which had been done.

The Protestant reformation was the movement brought about by God himself, to reverse that which the church of Rome had established. Certain individuals who had access to the scriptures began to notice how far from their teachings the church of Rome had deviated. These individuals, not understanding the true nature of this beast, tried at first to reform the institution. The result, of course, was the command from the church to put them to death. Eventually many of these reformers gathered great followings, and demanded their freedom, breaking away from the church of Rome. However, these churches still did not understand the concept of separation of church and state. Most of them followed the example of Rome, and became the established church of the countries they were the majority in. In turn, they also persecuted those who differed from their established beliefs, including of course, Roman Catholics.

These reformations continued for many centuries. Protestants breaking away from the church of Rome, and from other Protestants. It was not until the establishment of the government of the new world, that the quest of the Protestant reformation for freedom of worship, reached it's maturity. By establishing, and maintaining a separation of church and state, the government of the United States of America ensured religious freedom to all it's citizens. Though the governments and kingdoms of this world are altogether a separate thing from the kingdom of God here on earth,  the establishment of this law, made the United States the most Christ like form of government in this world. This is rightly so, since the effect of this law is to keep the government of this world completely separate from religion. Christianity therefore, in this country, must rely on the power of the Holy Spirit for the spreading of the gospel, for it cannot use the power of the state to do so. For this reason, this nation has been greatly blessed by God, above the other nations of the earth.

As always, history repeats itself. Although the U.S. has been blessed by God because of it's separation of church and state, the wall between the two is quickly eroding. An ever growing number of Protestant churches, having lost the power of the Holy Spirit by the rejection of the truths in God's word, are seeking to replace that power, with the power of the state. Of course the church of Rome, who's political power and influence is ever growing in the U.S., is ever ready to help in the establishment of a religio-political form of government to further her ends. Many Protestants are joining hands with the church of Rome for this very purpose. Even the president of the U.S. is taking steps in this direction.

As previously stated, the church of Rome is the mother of the, "Christian", religio-political allegiance. Whose purpose it is, to separate humanity from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In this instants, by entangling Christianity with the politics of this world, crippling the gospel message, and destroying it's power to save. Nevertheless, God's message will go forward. The greater the power of this beast becomes, the more pointed the testimony of the gospel will become. As the enemy unfolds his strategy, the power of the Holy Spirit will reveal his workings through the true church of Christ.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

[broach972]

Oh good grief you guys!  Your aluminium hats are on too tight. 

[banished]

Oh good grief you guys!  Your aluminium hats are on too tight. 

[mclees8]

Oh good grief you guys!  Your aluminium hats are on too tight. 

Pay no mind AMO, we are not the first ones that have been scoffed and laughed at.

Thing is they laugh while not even giving serious answers for the questions asked. When they don't have the answers all they can do is is make light of it.

I would like just one catholic here give a serious answer to the questions I posed.

The fact is they won't. They defend and know not what it is they defend. If they did they could answer. Religious pride and prejudice will be their downfall

God bless


   

[desertknight]

McLees, I would answer if you had any "serious questions" you asked.  I've read your posts and can't see any questions you have asked.  Maybe instead of pasting long diatribes you can actually just ask one of us Catholics something that can be answered.  I can say that of what you have posted, it is pretty silly stuff equating a Church who's dogmas, doctrines, worship, and teachings are those of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, and implying that in your opinion the "beast" of Revelation and the home of the anti-Christ, is a blasphemous and slanderous thing that you should be ashamed of.  God will judge you for slandering His Church if you do not repent.  Walk into any Catholic Church on Sunday, anywhere in the world and the centre of faith and worship is Christ.  Word and Sacrament.   By Cannon law in every Catholic Church, every day, the Holy Scriptures are read to the faithful and the bread and wine is consecrated as the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ and received by the people as a remembrance of His sacrifice for us.  It is only by His grace through our faith that we are saved.  That is rock-solid Catholic doctrine and the heart of Catholic faith.  It has remained unchanged and unaltered for 2,000 years of the Church on earth.  Holy Scripture emphatically tells us over and over that the "beast" and the anti-Christ will be one who denies Christ's divinity, the Incarnation, that Christ is Lord.  Please point out where the Church has now, or ever in it's history done so.  You cannot, and it makes the point of your posts utter rubbish.  The Church is filled with sinful men and sinful acts throughout history because Christ's Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from going astray, but Christ people must cooperate with our Lord's grace for their own protection and salvation.  Popes have been great saints and horrible sinners.  It is no reflection on what the Catholic Church is.  God's kingdom may not be of this world, but His Church on earth is, and was instituted among ordinary and sinful men to be so.  Every Apostle sinned.  The first head of His Church denied he even knew our Lord three times before the cock crowed.  It has nothing to do with the truth of the Church.  The Pope is not some mystical prophet, he is nothing but a fallible and sinful man, as all our Bishops are.   Protestantism, (As if one can pin down it's various 35,000+ interpretations of scripture and the faith.), has been infected by so called "enlightenment" ideas that have nothing to do with Christian doctrine or even Protestant doctrine of any kind.  To say that the Christian Church was never supposed to have anything to do with secular government was born in the parlours of the 18th century enlightenment by men who thought all organised religion dangerous and silly, not by those who follow Christ.  Our Lord instructed us to treat each other as brothers, that includes by all logical definition, the very governments we constitute for ourselves.  Your post against Catholic involvement, or any Christian church's involvement in world affairs or government are derived, whether you realise it or not, from the begining of the tragic history of "modernism", that began with pushing Christianity our of the halls of government, that of course led inevitably with the atheist regimes that have worked so hard with Satan to destroy us.  These un-Christian ideas that were gleaned from Enlightenment atheist and "Deist", would have been totally alien to all Christians for the first 1,700 years of the faith.  They were even totally alien to the founders of the "Reformation".  That Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI may call for, and work for the poor of the world, or the victims of disasters or wars, or for justice, through the governments that are constituted as those people's rulers is in no way, shape, or form, contrary to Christian doctrine.  That God's kingdom and ours is ultimately in heaven does not get us off the hook for our responsibility to act like grown men and do the work of grown men in establishing law and order for our governance on earth.  That men like Charlemagne were given honour as Catholic kings to set out laws and restore civilisation, that he and those like him set about in creating order and learning, stability and a home for the faith, is to be praised to the roof-tops, not condemned by any Christian.  Praise the Lord for such valiant kings.  Does that excuse the sins of the Church's past leaders or of Catholic kings in what they may have done wrong?  No!  Of course not, but to be a man is to lead; to be accountable to God and not shirk our responsibility to govern in this world.      

How's that for a start?    

[banished]

Oh good grief you guys!  Your aluminium hats are on too tight. 

Good Morning mclees8,

Don't you guys think that you kind of went off the deep end talking about the end of the World?  The Vatican did not consume the Church of England like you guys claim. An agreement was made so that the members of the Anglican Church (who want to switch) can enter the Holy Catholic Church and be under the Pope and be under Canon Law. Remember that there have been recent unGodly pratices in the Anglican Church.  That is all there was to it!  Take off your aluminum foil hats!

Take your wife up to Apple Hill for some fresh cider and donuts, and a fresh outlook on your Christian Walk.



Pay no mind AMO, we are not the first ones that have been scoffed and laughed at.

Thing is they laugh while not even giving serious answers for the questions asked. When they don't have the answers all they can do is is make light of it.

I would like just one catholic here give a serious answer to the questions I posed.

The fact is they won't. They defend and know not what it is they defend. If they did they could answer. Religious pride and prejudice will be their downfall

God bless


   

[banished]

Oh good grief you guys!  Your aluminium hats are on too tight. 

Pay no mind AMO, we are not the first ones that have been scoffed and laughed at.

Thing is they laugh while not even giving serious answers for the questions asked. When they don't have the answers all they can do is is make light of it.

I would like just one catholic here give a serious answer to the questions I posed.

The fact is they won't. They defend and know not what it is they defend. If they did they could answer. Religious pride and prejudice will be their downfall

God bless


   

Good Morning mclees8,

Don't you guys think that you kind of went off the deep end talking about the end of the World?  The Vatican did not consume the Church of England like you guys claim. An agreement was made so that the members of the Anglican Church (who want to switch) can enter the Holy Catholic Church and be under the Pope and be under Canon Law. Remember that there have been recent unGodly pratices in the Anglican Church.  That is all there was to it!  Take off your aluminum foil hats!

Take your wife up to Apple Hill for some fresh cider and donuts, and a fresh outlook on your Christian Walk.

[Amo]

Good Morning mclees8,

Don't you guys think that you kind of went off the deep end talking about the end of the World?  The Vatican did not consume the Church of England like you guys claim. An agreement was made so that the members of the Anglican Church (who want to switch) can enter the Holy Catholic Church and be under the Pope and be under Canon Law. Remember that there have been recent unGodly pratices in the Anglican Church.  That is all there was to it!  Take off your aluminum foil hats!

Take your wife up to Apple Hill for some fresh cider and donuts, and a fresh outlook on your Christian Walk.

My point was not that the Church of Rome consumed them, but that, those who will not continue the Reformation, will naturally turn back to Rome.  Before the end of this world, there will only be two harvests on earth to reap, those of Rome(this world), and those of God(citizens of the kingdom of heaven).  That something has drastically changed within the Church of England is obvious.  Nothing could be more ungodly within that Church, than to go back to the Church of Rome which she came out of.  Observe the following -

The Episcopal Confession of Faith
The Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion

Of the Church.

The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ's ordinance, in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same.

As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred; so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith.

Of Purgatory.

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

Of the Lord's Supper.

The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another; but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.

Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthrowing the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.

The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper, is Faith.
The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.

Of the one Oblation of Christ finished upon the Cross.

The Offering of Christ once made in that perfect redemption, propitiation, and satisfaction, for all the sins of the whole world, both original and actual; and there is none other satisfaction for sin, but that alone. Wherefore the sacrifices of Masses, in the which it was commonly said, that the Priest did offer Christ for the quick and the dead, to have remission of pain or guilt, were blasphemous fables, and dangerous deceits.

Of the Marriage of Priests.

Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, are not commanded by God's Law, either to vow the estate of single life, or to abstain from marriage: therefore it is lawful for them, as for all other Christian men, to marry at their own discretion, as they shall judge the same to serve better to godliness.
Of the Power of the Civil Magistrates.

The Power of the Civil Magistrate extendeth to all men, as well Clergy as Laity, in all things temporal; but hath no authority in things purely spiritual. And we hold it to be the duty of all men who are professors of the Gospel, to pay respectful obedience to the Civil Authority, regularly and legitimately constituted.

The original 1571, 1662 text of this Article reads as follows: "The King's Majesty hath the chief power in this Realm of England, and other his Dominions, unto whom the chief Government of all Estates of this Realm, whether they be Ecclesiastical or Civil, in all causes doth appertain, and is not, nor ought to be, subject to any foreign Jurisdiction. Where we attribute to the King's Majesty the chief government, by which Titles we understand the minds of some slanderous folks to be offended; we give not our Princes the ministering either of God's Word, or of the Sacraments, the which thing the Injunctions also lately set forth by Elizabeth our Queen do most plainly testify; but that only prerogative, which we see to have been given always to all godly Princes in holy Scriptures by God himself; that is, that they should rule all estates and degrees committed to their charge by God, whether they be Ecclesiastical or Temporal, and restrain with the civil sword the stubborn and evil-doers.

"The Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this Realm of England.

"The Laws of the Realm may punish Christian men with death, for heinous and grievous offenses.

"It is lawful for Christian men, at the commandment of the Magistrate, to wear weapons, and serve in the wars."

[banished]

Hello Amo,



I am trying very hard not to offend you guys, but in my honest opinion, you are not here in the Catholic Section to discuss or compare the Catholic perspective on anything, You guys seem to be determined otb demonizing the Pope and the Holy Catholic Church.  If you were truly interested in the End Times Prophesy there is a Forum Section where you can discuss that topic with other interested Christians.  I would like to give you an example of why there isn't a Catholic in this World who will listen to you. This loaded statement is in the first paragraph of your reply:

(quote from Amo)

"Before the end of this world, there will be two harvests on earth to reap, those of Rome (this world), and those of God (citizens of the kingdom of heaven).
(end of quote from Amo)

Are you okay?  Huh!  Why would you post something like that in the Catholic Section?  Huh!

I am assuming that you are referring to (Revelation 14:14-16) where John prophesied about the harvest of the earth at Armageddon?  If so, and I'm sure that you are, then inserting your remarks into the text only reviled your hate for the Catholic Church.  Because you seem to be so determined on demonizing the Catholics I will not refer to the Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church, but rather use the Protestant point of view.  That is,  the harvest takes place at Armageddon which is on the outskirts of Jerusalem, and there is no mention that the "vine of the earth" is of Rome, (like you say).

Verse 20 goes on to say that the battle of Armageddon has such a slaughter that the scripture says there will be a river of blood 200 miles long, 6 feet deep. 200 miles is the complete length of Israel and reaching up to the horse's bridle would be about six feet deep.

[desertknight]

I know, I hate people who just cut and paste too, but this is very interesting news....

The Rt Rev John Hind, the Bishop of Chichester, has announced he is considering becoming a Roman Catholic in a move that could spark an exodus of clergy.

Bishop Hind said he would be "happy" to be reordained as a Catholic priest and said that divisions in Anglicanism could make it impossible to stay in the church.

He is the most senior Anglican to admit that he is prepared to accept the offer from the Pope, who shocked the Church of England last week when he paved the way for clergy to convert to Catholicism in large numbers.

In a further blow to the Archbishop of Canterbury's hopes of preventing the Anglican Communion from disintegrating, other bishops have cast doubt over its survival.

The Rt Rev John Broadhurst, the Bishop of Fulham, even claimed that "the Anglican experiment is over". He said it has been shown to be powerless to cope with the crises over gays and women bishops.

In one of the most significant developments since the Reformation, the Pope last week announced that a new structure would be set up to allow disaffected Anglicans to enter full communion with Rome, while maintaining parts of their Protestant heritage.

The move comes after secret talks between the Vatican and a group of senior Anglican bishops. Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was not informed of the meetings and his advisers even denied that they had taken place when the Sunday Telegraph broke the story last year.

Now Bishop Hind, the most senior traditionalist in the Church of England, has confirmed that he is willing to sacrifice his salary and palace residence to defect to the Catholic Church.

"This is a remarkable new step from the Vatican," he said. "At long last there are some choices for Catholics in the Church of England. I'd be happy to be reordained into the Catholic Church."

While the bishop stressed that this would depend on his previous ministry being recognised, he said that the divisions in the Anglican Communion could make it impossible to stay.

"How can the Church exist if bishops are not in full communion with each other," he said.

Conservative archbishops and bishops have broken ties with their liberal counterparts following the US Episcopal Church's consecration of Gene Robinson, the first openly gay bishop.

Bishop Broadhurst said that the Pope has made his offer in response to the pleas of Anglicans who despair at the disintegration of their Church.

"Anglicanism has become a joke because it has singularly failed to deal with any of its contentious issues," said the bishop, who is chairman of Forward in Faith, the Anglo-Catholic network that represents around 1,000 traditionalist priests.

"There is widespread dissent across the [Anglican] Communion. We are divided in major ways on major issues and the Communion has unravelled.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6424562/Senior-Anglican-bishop-reveals-he-is-ready-to-convert-to-Roman-Catholicism.html

[mclees8]

Dear Night thank you for your answer.  My Diatribes just expose the truth from the deception. I make it a rule not to exceed a page or a little more Most people will lose interest if you run on and on.. My questions are very serious .Did you miss them? What slander? I have not accused anyone. Just commenting on what scripture tells us  Putting two and two together is for you to  decide. I believe you when you say that they present Christ and his Gospel. As long as it is His Gospel they preach and don't add to it the teaching and traditions of men. Your problem here is you say the institution is sole representative of the church The earthly authority is everything  Therefore you say it is the church. I do not see the church in that light. What is the truth and has not changed for 2000 years? Is it not the word that is written? What does it tell us about who the church is, which are the saints, which is comprised of every believer since the day of Pentecost?.  So what is the truth?  Christ is the truth, and when we believe upon Him we are saved not by the institution but when we believe upon the Gospel. It is the body of  Christ that is the church. Leadership is just a part of it.  Do you think the leadership are of higher accountability? Do you think Jesus will wink at misrepresentation.? 

I never said the RCC denies Christ or his divinity. I never said the pope is the antichrist. Do I think the pope will be deceived by the antichrist and mislead God's people ? I think he already is. Please note that is not slander. I know, I know there is no evidence or facts. But I can tell you what is a fact. That the papacy is very politically involved with world affairs? That it sees itself as the moral compass of the world and its governments.  That it ecumenically wants to bring the protestant denominations back to the church Rome. That they want world government and interfaith relations between other faiths. Of course you will think this is  a good thing. And in the eyes of the world it may seem like a good thing . World peace and economic stability and posterity. Sounds great doesn't it. Funny though that your very own Peter said when they cry peace and safety then sudden destruction shall come upon them.  The word also tells us that sin will wax worse and worse till the end comes, and the world and its governments and all who have put their faith in them will come to judgment. But that's just diatribes isn't it. We don't need to listen to Gods word just men who say they are the church and you only need to hear them.   

So what about these questions I asked. You talk about Atheist and haters of organized religion. And thank God for Godly kings. Will Organized religion change the world? Will Godly kings make the world more godly? Think now. While you are homed in on only what you think is right you miss Christ by a million miles.

If the world would suddenly all become convicted of sin and all would come to Christ then truly the world would be a better place. Jesus would then already rule and judgment would not have to come. Jesus never taught the church was going to change the world or rule it.  The world is racing toward  antichrist. Let me say it again. The world and its politics and religions is racing toward antichrist. He will be to them the answer to world peace, and economic stability. Why is the pope concerned about the world markets. Is not Jesus going to bring judgment to Babylon?
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance# of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.#
Now just think about what the pope is up to his neck in. No slander Just facts

You said who is antichrist but the one who denies Christ deity. So why is the Church of Rome in bed with the political ambitions of this world that will ultimately usher in the antichrist.  What does the papacy want? To be the center of world religion and politics. They are walking hand and right now.    They were married in 500 AD   The same ambition is still there. Are we ringing any bells yet? Don't just think about what things  defend your position.  Think about what I just said.
God bless

[desertknight]

What is the truth and has not changed for 2000 years? Is it not the word that is written?

It is Word and Sacrament.  It is Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, that magisterial teaching that Christ charged His anointed Apostles with and that only they can pass the authority onto successors with by the laying on of hands.  

Acts 2:42  "And they continued steadfast in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

2 Tim 1:6  "For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God  that you have through the imposition of my hands."

Acts 14:23  "They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

Tit. 1:5  "For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you."

Acts 14:23  "They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

If your Presbyters do not have the succession of the Apostles, if they cannot trace their authority through ordination by the authority given by Christ Himself, they are not true elders of His Church.  Scripture is clear.  My Church and the Orthodox Church's of the east, can do exactly that.

There is not one, single, solitary, example in Scripture, of anyone, receiving the office of either Bishop, Presbyter, or Deacon, without having been properly ordained, by one who has the mandate from the Apostles to do it, by the imposition of hands.  Not one.  Like many, I grew tired of trying to divine truth out of the thousands of Christian denominations outside of the Church and their thousands of different interpretations of Scripture and then I came to reading the writings of the early Church Fathers and reading the New Testament again and again in the light of that knowledge.  Only the Catholic Church and our Orthodox brethren had the same teaching, same truth, same authority, as that mentioned by the earliest of Christians and in Scripture.

Much of the "failed experiment of Anglicanism", just as much of what is left orthodox within Lutheranism, is making their way across the Tiber exactly because they have discovered where denying the authority of Christ's anointed and interpreting scripture according to the fashion of the day has gotten them.  From woman priests on one side of us Catholics, to denying the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist of the Evangelicals and conservative Protestants on the other side of us, they each are the product of the events of the age that birthed them and have spawned thousands of beliefs that have little resemblance to the Church of St. Paul or Polycarp.  I belong to the age old faith that like our fore-bearers in the Catacombs, lights the lamps and hears the Word preached, breaks the bread and pours the wine that will become the Body and Blood of Christ at our consecration and receive as His grace and then goes out into the world and set the example with God's grace of the Christian people we are.  We may have fallen short many, many times and so have our leaders, but we are not expected to be perfect but to be faithful.

What has changed?

"Discipline and subordination are necessary as in an army and in the human body, while arrogance is absurd for man is nothing. The Apostles foresaw feuds, and provided for a succession of Bishops and Deacons; such, therefore cannot be removed at pleasure."  Pope Clement I, ordained by St. Peter, Epistle to the Corinthians  AD 96.

"See that you all follow the Bishop, as Christ does the Father, and the Presbyteriam as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as a command of God. Let no one do anything connected with the Church without the Bishop. Let that be considered a certain [βεβαια, "valid"] Eucharist which is under the leadership of the Bishop, or one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the Bishop appears, there let the multitude of the people be; just as where Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church."  St. Ignatius of Antioch, ordained by the Apostle John.

"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Saviour was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1-20).  AD 150.  The descriptions of the Mass liturgy in Rome by Hippolytus (died c. 235) and Novatian (died c. 250) are similar to Justin's.

...nothing much in my Church for 2,000 years.    The quotes above are as accurate to both Catholic belief and practice in any Catholic parish church today as the day the Church Fathers wrote them above.  How bout' the church you attend?  Does it obey and reverence the Bishop who's authority is derived from direct Succession?  Do they partake of the Lord's Supper at every Sunday and acknowledge it as the true flesh and blood of Christ?  If they don't, then it is not Christ's Church, but an invention of men who drew on ideas of their age, not God's.

This is why you have a bias against the very idea of say a Pope engaging world leaders.  Was not God's anointed under the Old Covenant tasked to do the same?  Of course they were!  Please explain to me in Scripture where Protestants have decided that God's model in this no longer applies.  That you may believe in the separation of Church and state;  that even I may believe in it as best for America, is still, just an "Enlightenment" idea of secular men who didn't have God's will in mind at all, it would have been unrecognisable to anyone before the 18th century, but as Protestants always do, (Not because they are 'bad' people, but because they lack true authority to teach.), they simply take the values of their modern, secular world and wrap God and Scripture around it.  It's like when I have run into conservative Protestants who go through tortured arguments about how Christ and His followers did not ever drink actual wine.  Why?  Well because they prohibit such and therefore they must agonise over how to get scripture to "fit" their own temperance belief's born of a different age.  Any of our Lord's disciples and believers who if told that God thinks wine prohibited, would have looked at the messenger of such with stunned disbelief.  I use this example because it illustrates the Protestant fallacy.  Like your aversion to Church leadership engaging in the world and with it's leaders, it is simply your own opinion that is unique to your background and biases and would not only have not been recognised by any of Christ's Apostles and leaders, but wouldn't even be recognised by any of the leaders of the Reformation.  Luther engaged the princes of Germany in a close relationship.  Calvin ruled in Geneva with an iron fist.  Knox so engaged in the politics of Scotland, his imprint on Scottish life and politics exist to this day.  You views are that of a child of 'Enlightenment' ideas, whether you recognise it or not, and has little to do with Biblical models.



Samuel anointing David.
 
We are tasked to engage in the world, including in it's leadership, because we are tasked to be men who are the stewards of this world and the leaders of the people.  Does not a man rule his house?  Does not a Shepard rule his flock?  Was not a Bishop tasked to lead his?  Then why on earth do you think it stops there and please site your support for such a notion from either Scripture or history.  You said that I believe, "earthly authority is everything."  I did no such thing, but neither are we left with only Scripture with an organisation on earth.  Christ's first act of His ministry after His baptism was to go out and anoint twelve ordinary, and sinful I might add., men to lead a very visible and earthly Church on earth.  They clearly passed that authority on through ordination to others who passed it on to others through the laying on of hands and it has come down to us today, and is the only authority of the Church in the New Testament that is recognised.  Yes, the Lord will judge some Popes harshly for their sins for they bear the weight of other's journey to salvation on themselves, as with the other Bishops and the Presbyters and Deacons.   Heavy weighs the crown, they are Christ's 'regents', but that some have committed sin or sinned while engaged in the world is no "proof" that the alternative God desires for us is for His church's leaders to withdrawal from world affairs and sit around waiting for the end times.  Does not Christ tell us to care for the poor?  Are not the peacemakers blessed?  How does one do those things without engaging in the world?  I worked for a year in the Bay area building housing for the poor, for people living on the street.  My Church and myself in those efforts worked with San Francisco's political leaders.  Was that not what we are tasked to do?  Care for the least among us?  So if that is acceptable then why is the Pope arbitrating peace in the middle east or arguing for low interest loans to help poor farmers in Africa, wrong?  Where are you finding your opposition in Holy Scripture?  You can't.  It is simply your own opinion that you have, and you are equating it with God's.

As to the Church being "Babylon"  Revelation is of course, written in the light of pagan Rome that was crucifying our people, not about the Christ's Church who that same Rome was persecuting.  The Church is in Rome, because we triumphed and they lost.   You say the anti-Christ may not be the Pope but may influence the Pope, but even you admit no evidence of such.  Scripture clearly states that the anti-Christ will be the leader and the "beast" you allude to being the Catholic Church, not simply influence it's leader.  You and Amo sited Rev. 18 in doing this.  Yet Scripture tells us that their marks will be to deny Christ and to lead the people away with that denial.  Even you admit that, "I never said the RCC denies Christ or his divinity".  Good, then that should end your slanderous speculation that the Church is the 'beast' of Revelation.  Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would reside within His Church until the end of time.   He promised that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it.  He promised that those He appointed in it's leadership would have the power of the Holy Spirit to make what is on earth binding in heaven;  such was the vast authority given, just as under the Old Covenant.   Where are you getting that God changed His mind on all this and now has a new idea about His Church?  I know what the "beast" will be and Scripture call for me to be vigilant, but not to dwell on such things.  In every age everyone who has found the enemy they hate in charge has definitively stated their knowledge that alas the "beast" and the anti-Christ has been unmasked.  They have all thus far, been completely wrong.  The 'beast' may be in existence now, or maybe we will not know of it for 2,000 more years.  We do not know.  All who have ever stated with Scriptural "proof" that they knew who the Beast and anti-Christ were, from many of the Reformationist to the Restorationist, from the Jehovah's Witnesses to the Mormons, have all been laughably, but dangerously wrong in their prophecy.  That should tell us something about their motives and biases and the long and misguided history of such speculation.  
 

 

[Amo]

If your Presbyters do not have the succession of the Apostles, if they cannot trace their authority through ordination by the authority given by Christ Himself, they are not true elders of His Church.  Scripture is clear.  My Church and the Orthodox Church's of the east, can do exactly that.

So said the scribes and pharisees before Christ rebuked them.

Matt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

God does not need any person or institution to select and empower His own.  Most often He has had to do so from without that which considered itself the established of God.  This is just more of Rome's usurpation of God's authority.  This is why the institution is Antichrist, it has placed itself between humanity and God in so very many ways.  This place belongs to Christ alone, and His ministers are whomsoever He chooses.  Men can lay their hands upon anyone they wish, and claim whatever they wish about doing so.  Unless God does the same, it has no meaning or effect.  Go ahead and Lord your Church over every other.  The same is proof positive that your Church is not God's.

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

The true Church appeals to Christ always as the authority, not this or that institution, which are all subject to becoming corrupt.  The more power they claim for themselves, the more corrupt they likely are.

[desertknight]

Christ rebuked them as the Old Covenant was ended and they failed to recognise that fact.  He did however institute a new one and you have yet to prove that any authority within New Testament scripture can be derived through one's own making.  Even the Apostle Paul, chosen by Christ Himself, went to Christ's anointed Church leaders for ordination by the laying on of hands.  

Please site your "sola scriptura" evidence from Holy Scripture.  Only the Apostles, Bishops and Presbyters had the 'mandate' to teach and lead worship in Christ's name.  There is not one, single, solitary example of any other model existing in New Testement Scripture.

No visible Church authority?

Heb. 13:17  "Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you."

1 Thes. 5:12-13  "Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other."

[mclees8]

What is the truth and has not changed for 2000 years? Is it not the word that is written?

It is Word and Sacrament.  It is Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, that magisterial teaching that Christ charged His anointed Apostles with and that only they can pass the authority onto successors with by the laying on of hands.  

Acts 2:42  "And they continued steadfast in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

2 Tim 1:6  "For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God  that you have through the imposition of my hands."

Acts 14:23  "They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

Tit. 1:5  "For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you."

Acts 14:23  "They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith."

If your Presbyters do not have the succession of the Apostles, if they cannot trace their authority through ordination by the authority given by Christ Himself, they are not true elders of His Church.  Scripture is clear.  My Church and the Orthodox Church's of the east, can do exactly that.

There is not one, single, solitary, example in Scripture, of anyone, receiving the office of either Bishop, Presbyter, or Deacon, without having been properly ordained, by one who has the mandate from the Apostles to do it, by the imposition of hands.  Not one.  Like many, I grew tired of trying to divine truth out of the thousands of Christian denominations outside of the Church and their thousands of different interpretations of Scripture and then I came to reading the writings of the early Church Fathers and reading the New Testament again and again in the light of that knowledge.  Only the Catholic Church and our Orthodox brethren had the same teaching, same truth, same authority, as that mentioned by the earliest of Christians and in Scripture.

Much of the "failed experiment of Anglicanism", just as much of what is left orthodox within Lutheranism, is making their way across the Tiber exactly because they have discovered where denying the authority of Christ's anointed and interpreting scripture according to the fashion of the day has gotten them.  From woman priests on one side of us Catholics, to denying the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist of the Evangelicals and conservative Protestants on the other side of us, they each are the product of the events of the age that birthed them and have spawned thousands of beliefs that have little resemblance to the Church of St. Paul or Polycarp.  I belong to the age old faith that like our fore-bearers in the Catacombs, lights the lamps and hears the Word preached, breaks the bread and pours the wine that will become the Body and Blood of Christ at our consecration and receive as His grace and then goes out into the world and set the example with God's grace of the Christian people we are.  We may have fallen short many, many times and so have our leaders, but we are not expected to be perfect but to be faithful.

What has changed?

"Discipline and subordination are necessary as in an army and in the human body, while arrogance is absurd for man is nothing. The Apostles foresaw feuds, and provided for a succession of Bishops and Deacons; such, therefore cannot be removed at pleasure."  Pope Clement I, ordained by St. Peter, Epistle to the Corinthians  AD 96.

"See that you all follow the Bishop, as Christ does the Father, and the presbyterium as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as a command of God. Let no one do anything connected with the Church without the Bishop. Let that be considered a certain [βεβαια, "valid"] eucharist which is under the leadership of the Bishop, or one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the Bishop appears, there let the multitude of the people be; just as where Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church."  St. Ignatius of Antioch, ordained by the Apostle John.

"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Saviour was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1-20).  AD 150.  The descriptions of the Mass liturgy in Rome by Hippolytus (died c. 235) and Novatian (died c. 250) are similar to Justin's.

...nothing much in my Church for 2,000 years.    The quotes above are as accurate to both Catholic belief and practice in any Catholic parish church today as the day the Church Fathers wrote them above.  How bout' the church you attend?  Does it obey and reverence the Bishop who's authority is derived from direct Succession?  Do they partake of the Lord's Supper at every Sunday and acknowledge it as the true flesh and blood of Christ?  If they don't, then it is not Christ's Church, but an invention of men who drew on ideas of their age, not God's.

This is why you have a bias against the very idea of say a Pope engaging world leaders.  Was not God's anointed under the Old Covenant tasked to do the same?  Of course they were!  Please explain to me in Scripture where Protestants have decided that God's model in this no longer applies.  That you may believe in the separation of Church and state;  that even I may believe in it as best for America, is still, just an "Enlightenment" idea of secular men who didn't have God's will in mind at all, it would have been unrecognisable to anyone before the 18th century, but as Protestants always do, (Not because they are 'bad' people, but because they lack true authority to teach.), they simply take the values of their modern, secular world and wrap God and Scripture around it.  It's like when I have run into conservative Protestants who go through tortured arguments about how Christ and His followers did not ever drink actual wine.  Why?  Well because they prohibit such and therefore they must agonise over how to get scripture to "fit" their own temperance belief's born of a different age.  Any of our Lord's disciples and believers who if told that God thinks wine prohibited, would have looked at the messenger of such with stunned disbelief.  I use this example because it illustrates the Protestant fallacy.  Like your aversion to Church leadership engaging in the world and with it's leaders, it is simply your own opinion that is unique to your background and biases and would not only have not been recognised by any of Christ's Apostles and leaders, but wouldn't even be recognised by any of the leaders of the Reformation.  Luther engaged the princes of Germany in a close relationship.  Calvin ruled in Geneva with an iron fist.  Knox so engaged in the politics of Scotland, his imprint on Scottish life and politics exist to this day.  You views are that of a child of 'Enlightenment' ideas, whether you recognise it or not, and has little to do with Biblical models.



Samuel anointing David.
 
We are tasked to engage in the world, including in it's leadership, because we are tasked to be men who are the stewards of this world and the leaders of the people.  Does not a man rule his house?  Does not a Shepard rule his flock?  Was not a Bishop tasked to lead his?  Then why on earth do you think it stops there and please site your support for such a notion from either Scripture or history.  You said that I believe, "earthly authority is everything."  I did no such thing, but neither are we left with only Scripture with an organisation on earth.  Christ's first act of His ministry after His baptism was to go out and anoint twelve ordinary, and sinful I might add., men to lead a very visible and earthly Church on earth.  They clearly passed that authority on through ordination to others who passed it on to others through the laying on of hands and it has come down to us today, and is the only authority of the Church in the New Testament that is recognised.  Yes, the Lord will judge some Popes harshly for their sins for they bear the weight of other's journey to salvation on themselves, as with the other Bishops and the Presbyters and Deacons.   Heavy weighs the crown, they are Christ's 'regents', but that is no "proof" that the alternative God desires for us is for His church's leaders to withdrawal from world affairs and sit around waiting for the end times.  Does not Christ tell us to care for the poor?  Are not the peacemakers blessed?  How does one do those things without engaging in the world?  I worked for a year in the Bay area building housing for the poor, for people living on the street.  My Church and myself in those efforts worked with San Francisco's political leaders.  Was that not what we are tasked to do?  Care for the least among us?  So if that is acceptable then why is the Pope arbitrating peace in the middle east or arguing for low interest loans to help poor farmers in Africa, wrong?  Where are you finding your opposition in Holy Scripture?  You can't.  It is simply your own opinion that you have, and you are equating it with God's.

As to the Church being "Babylon"  Revelation is of course, written in the light of pagan Rome that was crucifying our people, not about the Christ's Church who that same Rome was persecuting.  The Church is in Rome, because we triumphed and they lost.   You say the anti-Christ may not be the Pope but may influence the Pope, but even you admit no evidence of such.  Scripture clearly states that the anti-Christ will be the leader and the "beast" will devour the Church, not simply influence it's leader.  Their marks will be to deny Christ and to lead the people away with that denial.  Even you admit that, "I never said the RCC denies Christ or his divinity".  Good, then that should end your slanderous speculation that the Church is the 'beast' of Revelation.  Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would reside within His Church until the end of time.   He promised that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it.  He promised that those He appointed in it's leadership would have the power of the Holy Spirit to make what is on earth binding in heaven;  such was the vast authority given, just as under the Old Covenant.   Where are you getting that God changed His mind on all this and now has a new idea about His Church?  
 

 

Dear Njght I am asking you to read again the meat of my message to you and try to give real thought here. I know what you believe and why you think it is right. Listen I commend your helping the poor and we all do things like that. I to help the poor and minister to them every Sunday in the park. I bring food and minister Christ to them. we do this under a big banyon tree and I call it  the church with out walls. It is the closest thing i can think of as being how the early church was.   The church was ministers of the gospel and did good works long before it got involved in any politics. or some hierachial system like the RCC.  You think the church must play a part in the moral political thing to do and be his church.  He said that he must be lifted up to a lost and dieing world. He called us to be ambassadors displaying His love for others. Are you going to Church or is the church and Christ in you. There a time when one stops going to the teacher and becomes a teacher. This is what discipleship is. This is what the apostles became.

But this world is heading for its inevitable end. Please read my message again

Also I did not say the church was Babylon, but is in Babylon. baby Lon is the whole world system. It is the world, but Christ that while we were still init wer were not to be apart of it.


So what about these questions I asked. You talk about Atheist and haters of organized religion. And thank God for Godly kings. Will Organized religion change the world? Will Godly kings make the world more godly? Think now. While you are homed in on only what you think is right you miss Christ by a million miles.

If the world would suddenly all become convicted of sin and all would come to Christ then truly the world would be a better place. Jesus would then already rule and judgment would not have to come. Jesus never taught the church was going to change the world or rule it.  The world is racing toward  antichrist. Let me say it again. The world and its politics and religions is racing toward antichrist. He will be to them the answer to world peace, and economic stability. Why is the pope concerned about the world markets. Is not Jesus going to bring judgment to Babylon?
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance# of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.#
Now just think about what the pope is up to his neck in. No slander Just facts

You said who is antichrist but the one who denies Christ deity. So why is the Church of Rome in bed with the political ambitions of this world that will ultimately usher in the antichrist.  What does the papacy want? To be the center of world religion and politics. They are walking hand and right now.    They were married in 500 AD   The same ambition is still there. Are we ringing any bells yet? Don't just think about what things  defend your position.  Think about what I just said.
God bless

[Amo]

Christ rebuked them as the Old Covenant was ended and they failed to recognise that fact.  He did however institute a new one and you have yet to prove that any authority within New Testament scripture can be derived through one's own making.  Even the Apostle Paul, chosen by Christ Himself, went to Christ's anointed Church leaders for ordination by the laying on of hands.  

Please site your "sola scriptura" evidence from Holy Scripture.  Only the Apostles, Bishops and Presbyters had the 'mandate' to teach and lead worship in Christ's name.  There is not one, single, solitary example of any other model existing in New Testement Scripture.

No visible Church authority?

Heb. 13:17  "Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you."

1 Thes. 5:12-13  "Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other."

Men can ordain whoever they want, this does not mean that God has ordained them.  This much even you acknowledge, in that you would not accept the ordination of any but those ordained through Rome.  The history of many a Pope and Priest has proven that even though they were ordained of Rome, they most certainly were not ordained of God.  The following verses apply to all, including those ordained by anyone.

Matt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[mclees8]

Christ rebuked them as the Old Covenant was ended and they failed to recognise that fact.  He did however institute a new one and you have yet to prove that any authority within New Testament scripture can be derived through one's own making.  Even the Apostle Paul, chosen by Christ Himself, went to Christ's anointed Church leaders for ordination by the laying on of hands.  

Please site your "sola scriptura" evidence from Holy Scripture.  Only the Apostles, Bishops and Presbyters had the 'mandate' to teach and lead worship in Christ's name.  There is not one, single, solitary example of any other model existing in New Testement Scripture.

No visible Church authority?

Heb. 13:17  "Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you."

1 Thes. 5:12-13  "Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other."

Yes we are to respect all authority. and those who are church leaders. as long as they stay on track. We are about the gospel not politics. When these verses were first spoken there was no political agendas.
God bless

[desertknight]

You can try to get around it all you want, Amo, but you don't reference any New Testament Scripture that I sited because the evidence is indisputable.  Yes, the Church's ministers can ordain whoever they want, but they only have the right to do so based on the fact that they were ordained by one with that same authority themselves.

There is not one single, solitary, example in New Testament scripture, of anyone, ever, being accepted as a Bishop, Presbyter or Deacon without having been ordained so through the laying on of hands by legitimate, (i.e., those who can trace their ordination back to the Apostles.), Authority.  Not one, not ever.  Timothy, Titus, Silas...all had to receive proper ordination from those with valid authority in order to have the mandate to teach, preach and lead worship or most importantly as they were overseers, Bishops, to ordain Presbyters to lead individual Christian communities, so that pretty much blows your theory of no visible earthly church structure being established or necessary.  We actually have an example in the NT of those who tried to act without being properly ordained...

Acts 15:24-26 "Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Notice that it was not simply that their teachings had disturbed some, that was incidental to the Apostles, but they had done so, "without any mandate from us", and so the remedy was to send those who did.

There is not a single example in the New Testament Church, contrary to Protestant practice, of anyone, anywhere, being self-appointed or appointed by any other than proper Apostolic authority, as being valid.  Not one.  
 

[desertknight]

as long as they stay on track.

That is not actually correct.  Although the Church is protected from gross errancy in matters of faith and morals, to state that once we decide on our own, though our own interpretation of Scripture, that Church leaders have erred and therefore we are no longer to follow them, has no Scriptural support.  I'm not saying the Church expects us to blindly follow errant ministers, but the problem with your model is that you cannot act out of your own interpretations without authority.  To act as you have stated is not to 'obey and respect', but to simply follow as long as you are in agreement with them.  That is not obedience, which scripture demands, but simple agreement.  Are the sheep allowed to wonder on their own if they think the Shepard is lost?  NO!  I may disagree with my father and my father may be wrong, but I am under his authority and obedience, nevertheless.  Such was Old Covenant law that a father could put to death his own children for their disobedience to him and God enshrined that very view in Holy Scripture.  Of course I am not advocating that today, but clearly it stands in stark contrast to our modernist views that say, "I will obey Mom and Dad or my other leaders in authority, be they civil or religious, only as long as I happen to agree with them".  Look what a toxic waste-dump of our society that has made in this world.   Look what a jumbled mess of incoherency it has made in the 35,000+ "denominations" of Christianity outside the Catholic Church, all claiming the truth.

[mclees8]

as long as they stay on track.

That is not actually correct.  Although the Church is protected from gross errancy in matters of faith and morals, to state that once we decide on our own, though our own interpretation of Scripture, that Church leaders have erred and therefore we are no longer to follow them, has no Scriptural support.  I'm not saying the Church expects us to blindly follow errant ministers, but the problem with your model is that you cannot act out of your own interpretations without authority.  To act as you have stated is not to 'obey and respect', but to simply follow as long as you are in agreement with them.  That is not obedience, which scripture demands, but simple agreement.  Are the sheep allowed to wonder on their own if they think the Shepard is lost?  NO!  I may disagree with my father and my father may be wrong, but I am under his authority and obedience, nevertheless.  Such was Old Covenant law that a father could put to death his own children for their disobedience to him and God enshrined that very view in Holy Scripture.  Of course I am not advocating that today, but clearly it stands in stark contrast to our modernist views that say, "I will obey Mom and Dad or my other leaders in authority, be they civil or religious, only as long as I happen to agree with them".  Look what a toxic waste-dump of our society that has made in this world.   Look what a jumbled mess of incoherency it has made in the 35,000+ "denominations" of Christianity outside the Catholic Church, all claiming the truth.

Political ambition was a gross error. You always say what scriptural support do i have for this or that. I have scriptural support but you never say anything about it.  So now let me ask you where is there any support in scripture that the church was to become a politically charged church.  A marriage between Christ church and the political power of the land? five hundred years after the church was born. Being the religious political authority representing Christ  before the whole empire and the known world is an extreemly important position for a bishop of Rome. Not even Peter had such a position.  So important is it that it is not likely Christ would have neglected to mention it noting it was five hundred years before it happened. And even then only by fraud. So what scriptural support do you have for this?
God bless
God bless 

[banished]

as long as they stay on track.

That is not actually correct.  Although the Church is protected from gross errancy in matters of faith and morals, to state that once we decide on our own, though our own interpretation of Scripture, that Church leaders have erred and therefore we are no longer to follow them, has no Scriptural support.  I'm not saying the Church expects us to blindly follow errant ministers, but the problem with your model is that you cannot act out of your own interpretations without authority.  To act as you have stated is not to 'obey and respect', but to simply follow as long as you are in agreement with them.  That is not obedience, which scripture demands, but simple agreement.  Are the sheep allowed to wonder on their own if they think the Shepard is lost?  NO!  I may disagree with my father and my father may be wrong, but I am under his authority and obedience, nevertheless.  Such was Old Covenant law that a father could put to death his own children for their disobedience to him and God enshrined that very view in Holy Scripture.  Of course I am not advocating that today, but clearly it stands in stark contrast to our modernist views that say, "I will obey Mom and Dad or my other leaders in authority, be they civil or religious, only as long as I happen to agree with them".  Look what a toxic waste-dump of our society that has made in this world.   Look what a jumbled mess of incoherency it has made in the 35,000+ "denominations" of Christianity outside the Catholic Church, all claiming the truth.

Political ambition was a gross error. You always say what scriptural support do i have for this or that. I have scriptural support but you never say anything about it.  So now let me ask you where is there any support in scripture that the church was to become a politically charged church.  A marriage between Christ church and the political power of the land? five hundred years after the church was born. Being the religious political authority representing Christ  before the whole empire and the known world is an extreemly important position for a bishop of Rome. Not even Peter had such a position.  So important is it that it is not likely Christ would have neglected to mention it noting it was five hundred years before it happened. And even then only by fraud. So what scriptural support do you have for this?
God bless
God bless 

mclees8,

"'But there are some of you who do not believe.' Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, 'For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.' As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, 'Do you also want to leave?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.'" John 6:64-68

[mclees8]

as long as they stay on track.

That is not actually correct.  Although the Church is protected from gross errancy in matters of faith and morals, to state that once we decide on our own, though our own interpretation of Scripture, that Church leaders have erred and therefore we are no longer to follow them, has no Scriptural support.  I'm not saying the Church expects us to blindly follow errant ministers, but the problem with your model is that you cannot act out of your own interpretations without authority.  To act as you have stated is not to 'obey and respect', but to simply follow as long as you are in agreement with them.  That is not obedience, which scripture demands, but simple agreement.  Are the sheep allowed to wonder on their own if they think the Shepard is lost?  NO!  I may disagree with my father and my father may be wrong, but I am under his authority and obedience, nevertheless.  Such was Old Covenant law that a father could put to death his own children for their disobedience to him and God enshrined that very view in Holy Scripture.  Of course I am not advocating that today, but clearly it stands in stark contrast to our modernist views that say, "I will obey Mom and Dad or my other leaders in authority, be they civil or religious, only as long as I happen to agree with them".  Look what a toxic waste-dump of our society that has made in this world.   Look what a jumbled mess of incoherency it has made in the 35,000+ "denominations" of Christianity outside the Catholic Church, all claiming the truth.

Political ambition was a gross error. You always say what scriptural support do i have for this or that. I have scriptural support but you never say anything about it.  So now let me ask you where is there any support in scripture that the church was to become a politically charged church.  A marriage between Christ church and the political power of the land? five hundred years after the church was born. Being the religious political authority representing Christ  before the whole empire and the known world is an extreemly important position for a bishop of Rome. Not even Peter had such a position.  So important is it that it is not likely Christ would have neglected to mention it noting it was five hundred years before it happened. And even then only by fraud. So what scriptural support do you have for this?
God bless
God bless 

mclees8,

"'But there are some of you who do not believe.' Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, 'For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.' As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, 'Do you also want to leave?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.'" John 6:64-68

Nice scripture, but it doesn't support what i was talking about. there question to support politacal ambition is still there.

God bless

[Amo]

You can try to get around it all you want, Amo, but you don't reference any New Testament Scripture that I sited because the evidence is indisputable.  Yes, the Church's ministers can ordain whoever they want, but they only have the right to do so based on the fact that they were ordained by one with that same authority themselves.

There is not one single, solitary, example in New Testament scripture, of anyone, ever, being accepted as a Bishop, Presbyter or Deacon without having been ordained so through the laying on of hands by legitimate, (i.e., those who can trace their ordination back to the Apostles.), Authority.  Not one, not ever.  Timothy, Titus, Silas...all had to receive proper ordination from those with valid authority in order to have the mandate to teach, preach and lead worship or most importantly as they were overseers, Bishops, to ordain Presbyters to lead individual Christian communities, so that pretty much blows your theory of no visible earthly church structure being established or necessary.  We actually have an example in the NT of those who tried to act without being properly ordained...

Acts 15:24-26 "Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Notice that it was not simply that their teachings had disturbed some, that was incidental to the Apostles, but they had done so, "without any mandate from us", and so the remedy was to send those who did.

There is not a single example in the New Testament Church, contrary to Protestant practice, of anyone, anywhere, being self-appointed or appointed by any other than proper Apostolic authority, as being valid.  Not one.

That is a bunch of nonsense.  It is by their fruits, and their teachings that we are to know the true Church.  It is ridiculous to think that for the last two thousand years we were supposed to keep track of every one ever ordained, and know whether they can be traced back to the apostles.  All that would be needed by any then, would be a good forgery to fool everyone.  Which very thing the Church of Rome is guilty of using in the past, and therefore could not be trusted now to be honest about the same.

I know that even you will admit that there have been many that were ordained by Rome, only to be later excommunicated from the same for not maintaining Rome's teachings.  Thus the ordination loses all significance.  So also does any ordination from Rome, since she has departed so far from the scriptures with her teachings, and practices.  Even if you could produce real documentation back to the apostles, it would mean nothing to me because of your teachings.  Nor to anyone else who holds scripture above tradition. 

Of course the scriptures give no account of ordination apart from the apostles, they were written by them during their lives.  I'm sure they were involved in many ordinations.  On the other hand, I am sure that many took place without them also.  They certainly could not have kept up with the pace at which the early Church grew, and prospered.  If you consider how many the apostles ordained, and then how many those who the apostles ordained, ordained, and so on and so son, you see the impossibility of keeping track of every supposed authentic ordination over the last two thousand years.  The only Church I could think of demanding this for proof of authenticity and obedience, would be one that did not have the truth, and therefore sought other means of lording itself over others.  Which very thing the Church of Rome has done all throughout history, even commanding those who would not bow to her, to be killed for the same.  Proof positive that she is not the true Church regardless of any claim she has, or any supposed proof of lineage back to the apostles.

This is exactly what many of the Jews did in Jesus day.  They claimed to be of the lineage of Abraham as authenticity of their true religion, but then they crucified Christ, and persecuted and killed His followers.  Thus proving the exact opposite.  So also the political aspirations of the Church of Rome, have left behind in the annals of history her bloody path of persecution of all that would not bow to her claim for authority as the true and authentic Church of Christ on earth.  Thus proving the exact opposite.  What you call the true Church of Christ, the bible calls BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

She is presently seeking relations with as many of the kings of the earth as she possibly can.  There is no other religion in the world that comes anywhere near being as politically involved in the same.  The result this time will be the same as last time.  She will end up persecuting God's true Church in this world.  The Church which is composed of all those who have chosen to submit their lives to the guidance of God's word above all other powers of this world, including Rome's.