Is Universalism Biblical? ( A Closer Look )

[rodgertutt]

Sooner or later everyone is going to serve and worship the Lord.

"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4

[St James]

Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   

[Sinead]

Sooner or later everyone is going to serve and worship the Lord.

"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4

Every knee will bow yes, but that doesn't mean everyone will be saved - they wont, the bible is crystal clear on this.

Satan WILL be thrown into the lake of fire forever, along with those who rejected Christ.

Any other teaching is straight from the pit of hell.

[rodgertutt]

I suggest that you actually read these verses.
They say that all shall worship, not just "bow."

"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4

[Sinead]

I suggest that you actually read these verses.
They say that all shall worship, not just "bow."

"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4

Worshipping God won't save them.

[Sinead]

God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

[FireSword]

God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

cannot be saved from destruction in this age of lies. But God can restore all things to himself even those things that were led into destruction.

He has eternity to restore lost souls- A long time.

His mercy endureth forever.

In the fullness of time, every knee shall confess, the Jesus is lord, so that God may be all in all.

[Sinead]

God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

cannot be saved from destruction in this age of lies. But God can restore all things to himself even those things that were led into destruction.

He has eternity to restore lost souls- A long time.

His mercy endureth forever.

In the fullness of time, every knee shall confess, the Jesus is lord, so that God may be all in all.

Firesword, the lost will remain in hell, they wont be restored.

[rodgertutt]

Firesword, the lost will remain in hell, they wont be restored.

Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's,  The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

Jesus was talking in the present tense. Not all would start trusting Him as their Saviour during His earthly ministry.

But sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure

[Sinead]

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

[rodgertutt]

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

The fire is not eternal, it is aionios (age during)
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

For an explanation of what Christ meant by Matt. 18:8 click on the
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED link
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
then scroll down and click on
CAST INTO HELL-FIRE

[Sinead]

Believe that if it makes you feel better, but nothing can change the truth.

[rodgertutt]

Believe that if it makes you feel better, but nothing can change the truth.

Interested students will examine the evidence in the links and will decide for themselves if they think it is the "truth," or not.

The fire is not eternal, it is aionios (age during)
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

For an explanation of what Christ meant by Matt. 18:8 click on the
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED link
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
then scroll down and click on
CAST INTO HELL-FIRE

[rodgertutt]

Quote

Firesword, the lost will remain in hell, they wont be restored.

Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's,  The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Quote

God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

Jesus was talking in the present tense. Not all would start trusting Him as their Saviour during His earthly ministry.

But sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure

[FireSword]

Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   

Yes, the belief that all man will be saved is a very early belief from the early church. Some of the earliest writings of the early church testify to universal salvation. It is fitting that in these times the doctrine is being restored.

[biblicist]

Your response is too broadbrush. Look at the Evangelical Universalist cite. We do not believe that ALL are now saved. We believe that all must be saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. It is easy to refute a straw man, which is all you have done. We do not deny that there will be punishment for sin, what we deny is ECT. That is Eternal Conscious Torture, which is taught by mainstream Christianity.

Biblicist

[MaddSkillz]

Your response is too broadbrush. Look at the Evangelical Universalist cite. We do not believe that ALL are now saved. We believe that all must be saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. It is easy to refute a straw man, which is all you have done. We do not deny that there will be punishment for sin, what we deny is ECT. That is Eternal Conscious Torture, which is taught by mainstream Christianity.

Biblicist

You're not saved by grace if you have to earn it through belief.  That would be salvation by way of reward... 

But the bible says we're saved by grace.  The mainstream church certainly believes we've saved by grace, but then somehow, grace is only extended to believers.  But wait, wouldn't that be reward?

[biblicist]

The common understanding of faith makes it a work. It is not. Believing a thing is simply being CONVINCED of its truth. There is no WORK at all involved which is done by us. God WORKS to create faith in us. He does this for some during this life, but eventually HE will convince all of the truth.

[MaddSkillz]

The common understanding of faith makes it a work. It is not. Believing a thing is simply being CONVINCED of its truth. There is no WORK at all involved which is done by us. God WORKS to create faith in us. He does this for some during this life, but eventually HE will convince all of the truth.

Work, not work... Whatever... If I have to do something specific in order to obtain grace it's no longer grace. It's being earned.

[FireSword]

Faith in Gods grace.


Jesus could not do mighty works (Or maybe he means did not want to do works, because it would be wasting his time to do works to a bunch of unthankfull and unbelieving people) in some towns because of their unbelief.

[willieH]

Is Universalism Biblical?

From an article published by Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministry

        Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

        The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved. Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

        Such passages, interpreted properly, do not support universalism:

            * John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).
            * Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)
            * First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.

        The Scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes (saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers), and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities (heaven or hell).

            * In Matthew 13:30 Jesus in a parable said, "Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." Here unbelievers and believers are spoken of as tares and wheat. Two classes!
            * In Matthew 13:49 Jesus said, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous." Again, two classes are mentioned - unbelievers and believers spoken of as the wicked and the righteous.
            * In Matthew 25:32 Jesus said that following His second coming, "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Here believers and unbelievers are differentiated by the terms "sheep" and "goats." The sheep will enter into God's kingdom (vs. 34) and inherit eternal life (vs. 46). The goats go into eternal punishment (vs. 46).
            * In Luke 16:26 we find Abraham in the afterlife telling the unsaved rich man: "Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Hades apparently had two compartments: "paradise" for the saved, and "torments" for the unsaved - and these compartments were separated by a great chasm or gulf.

        Clearly, then, the Scriptures speak of two classes of people (the saved and the unsaved) and two possible destinies (heaven for the saved; hell for the unsaved). And each respective person ends up in one of these places based upon whether or not he or she placed saving faith in Christ during his or her time on earth (Acts 16:31).

The Scriptures clearly (and in several places) state that JESUS was sent to SAVE the WORLD...   Either He SUCCEEDED or He FAILED to do so -- 1 John 4:14 -- John 3:16-17 -- Luke 19:10 --  I for one KNOW that HE SUCCEEDED, simply based upon the Scriptural report which notes that WHATSOEVER the WORD is sent to do shall BE ACCOMPLISHED -- Isaiah 55:11


YHVH GOD cannot fail, neither can His PERFECT WORD fail.   If the WORLD is NOT saved... then JESUS failed to accomplish His mission as its SAVIOR.  That is not even worth any consideration whatsoever.


You are welcome to embrace such (fantastically traditional and false) thinking, ...I believe in a PERFECT Creator and a PERFECT Savior which NEVER FAIL...


PS... FYI... the vast majority of available English translations (of the ENTIRE Scriptures - Old and/or New Testaments) do not even mention the word "HELL" even ONCE!  (I can provide a list of these, if you need it). 


The fallacy of "HELL" (which immersed from the depravity of the DECEITFUL hearts of men -- Jer 17:9 -- who's DECEIT is ABOVE all things) is easily disproven via even the slightest scrutiny of it.  JESUS never once used the term "hell", and never once alluded to such a place either...   


JESUS' MISSION was to SAVE the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14 -- and was SENT NOT, to CONDEMN it -- John 3:16-17 -- and...


JESUS IS an UNCHANGING entity --Heb 13:8 - James 1:17 -- the perfect IMAGE of the Father YHVH which also, is an UNCHANGING entity -- Mal 3:4 

Therefore if both YHVH God and JESUS CHRIST are both UNCHANGING... and the mission designed by YHVH God (which He then gave to JESUS) was to SAVE THE WORLD and to NOT CONDEMN it...  then the SAVING of the WORLD and the NON-CONDEMNATION of it is indeed that which has taken place despite the collective efforts of men that pridefully cling to traditionally false teachings which FALSELY propose otherwise (and of course, curiously are NEVER found    including themselves as part of those who are "condemned"  ).


One thing is certain, ...as JESUS Himself CLEARLY prophesied, ...The MANY which would (claim to be) come in the NAME of CHRIST -- Matt 7:22-23 -- and their "wonderful works"... will be that which shall find HIS REJECTION!


So foolishly perceiving that the ETERNAL SALVATION of the LIVING God, is theirs to decide... yeah right!  Can man get any more childishly arrogant?    ...unfortunately, ...the answer is YESSSS! 


We "decide" ETERNAL LIFE,  about as much as each of us "decided" all the parameters of this pathetically brief VAPOR of a LIFE that we each live here on Earth! -- James 4:14
 

Which of you "decided" anything concerning your life here on Earth?     ....such as WHEN  (era in which) you would be born...  WHO would be your PARENTS...  What GENDER you would be... WHAT LOCATION in the world your life would take place... 

Yeah... "you decided" all that (and more), didya?   Get real! 


If this VAPOR of a life was not decided by YOU, then I ask you,  ...how might you muster up the vast amount of audacity required that shall raise your VANITY to propose that ETERNAL LIFE is YOURS to decide? 


Think about it.  Then if you actually will devote some study to this (instead of just swallowing the baloney fed you),  ...you shall find that YHVH GOD is certainly NOT a FAILURE (in His desire and INTENT that the WORLD be SAVED)... nor did He SEND His SON to fail (to save it)...


PEACE...  ...willieH

[chosenone]

SO willie you deny the existence of satan and punishment and hell.  So presumably you think that everyone will be saved and be in heaven and raptured when that time comes? If so who are the people left behind when the rapture occurs? Where do the people who God rejects at the final judgement go? Where do those go who have rejected His son?

I would be interested to know what church/group you go to hear this skewed teaching. OF course satan is very happy with those like you who deny his existence. I KNOW he is real, and I KNOW evil spirits are real, and not just because Gods tells us that.

http://www.biblestudyproject.org/Satan-and-Demons-messianic.htm#IV._SATAN

[willieH]

SO willie you deny the existence of satan and punishment and hell.

HELL is unbiblical.  "satan" by definition is a principality, not a being.  and punishment... well you WILL reap what you SOW.  SOW evil and lies, and you might well expect that just as GOD has placed UP to accomodate DOWN... and has placed OUTSIDE to establish INSIDE... that you shall REAP of THE FLESH... corruption.  And it wont be fun.  I spent many years of my life outside the realm of the Kingdom... and I sowed what I should not.  I have been fighting CANCER for 5 years... and it has not been fun.  Surgery, radiation, chemo, not fun.

So I advise you (you are welcome to choose not to listen), that if TRUTH comes your way... that no matter what you "believe", that you shall reconsider your beliefs where they are UNREASONABLE, for GOD's pathway to SALVATION... travels through the realm of REASON -- Isaiah 1:18   

So presumably you think that everyone will be saved and be in heaven and raptured when that time comes?

Another completely UNBIBLICAL teaching... the "rapture"... as well, you agree with invented teaching of... "going to Heaven"... which is not in there either.


This only displays that you have not diligently researched the Scriptures... Please name even ONE Scripture that says someone, let alone everyone, will "go to Heaven"...  and don't bother with the "Rapture", as that is strictly an invention of SINNERS, and this subject is not found anywhere in the Holy Bible.

If so who are the people left behind when the rapture occurs?

There is no Rapture, so it will not occur, and subsequently no one is "left behind".  Reading too many extra-Biblical books and watching fantasy movies - by men SEEKING MONEY -- instead of humbly digging in the FIELD for the TREASURES to be found within it -- Prov 25:2 -- Matt 13:44

Where do the people who God rejects at the final judgement go?

I'll answer with Scripture:

Isaiah 26:9 -- with my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea with my spirit within me will I seek thee..............  for WHEN THY JUDGMENTS are IN the EARTH, the INHABITANTS of the WORLD will... LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.


No one is "going" anywhere... for the KINGDOM of GOD will be come down unto the Earth... and GOD will be ALL in ALL -- 1 Cor 15:28

Where do those go who have rejected His son?

ALL reject His son... As we are ALL concluded (by God) in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- It is only the WORK of GOD, which AUTHORS and FINISHES the FAITH that delivers any and everyone -- Heb 12:2 -- and NO MAN can "come" to obtain that FAITH, except YHVH ...drag... that one to CHRIST -- John 6:44 - John 6:65

I would be interested to know what church/group you go to hear this skewed teaching.

More wreckless (and for all intent and purpose), meaningless commentary.  Why are you afraid of using the WORD of GOD, chosenone?  You seem to be unfamiliar with it, are you?   


Let us discuss a teaching (you can pick one, doesn't matter to me) which you either oppose or believe, and we shall see which of the 2 of us is truly familiar with the WORDS of YHVH God.     Wanna talk about HELL?  satan?  Free will?  Spiritual Israel?  The trinity?  Change of the Sabbath?  Easter?  Fallen Angels?  Pick one, let's see what you know, and which of the two of us is actually basing his belief on the WORD, and which is NOT.


As far as my "church history" I spent the very early part of my life (4-10 years old) attending my moms church - the Episcopal church, ...then when YHVH called me in 1976, ...I spent 5 years in the 7th Day Adventist church, and later, approximately 20 years in the Salvation Army church.  NONE of what I have come to know is found in the teachings of either of those churches (nor in the Episcopal church of my childhood)


As far as "skewed teaching"... a teaching is "skewed" (such as the teachings of Hell, cults, and rapture) only if it is not FOUNDED in the WORD. 


I am well able to found ALL that I presently KNOW to be the TRUTH, with both REASON and the WORD of God.   Thus far, you have named several things I which you BELIEVE, that are not at all mentioned in the WORD of GOD even ONCE...  When are you going to start using SCRIPTURE, chosenone?  Or is that not part of your belief system?

OF course satan is very happy with those like you who deny his existence. I KNOW he is real, and I KNOW evil spirits are real, and not just because Gods tells us that.

Actually that is quite assuming of you, and completely inaccurate.   I do/did not deny that "satan" exists.  "satan" indeed exists as a principality, which is the adversity/adversary of the FLESH of man, which beckons him to fulfill its lusts --


James 1:14 -- EVERY MAN is tempted [this includes Eve in the garden] when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of HIS OWN LUST, and enticed.


Paul spoke of it, have you ever read it, chosenone?


Rom 7:22-23 -- for I delight in the law of GOD after the INWARD man... but I see another LAW ...IN ...MY ...MEMBERS, ...WARRING against the LAW of my mind, and BRINGING ME into the CAPTIVITY of the law of SIN, ...which is ...IN ...MY ...MEMBERS.


There is no one to blame for your sins but YOU.  Which is why you REAP what you SOW! -- Gal 6:8


I most heartily deny that "satan" is a being.  To say that "satan" is a being is like saying LAUGHTER is a being, or FEAR is a being, or  CRYING is a being... 


Found your claims "chosenone"!  Where in the WORD does "GOD tell us that 'satan' is REAL"?  (book/chapter/verse)... Where in the WORD does "GOD tell us (or you) that 'evil spirits' are beings"?


I  must warn you that I have been in diligent daily study of the WORD for over 35 years... and can found anything I might state about the WORD.
I do not need a 'church' or 'pastor' (which I am btw)... to tell me what to believe.   I search for my Creator in His WORD on a daily basis.

Here's a question forya chosenone ...   Let's see if you have the wherewithal to answer it. 


The WORD says that -- Rom 5:20 -- that WHERE SIN abounded (in any number, degree, type, etc),  GRACE did MUCH MORE abound.  MUCH more, ...not barely more, or ...a little more or even  ...a lot more... but MUCH more!  What say you, chosenone?   What SIN do you know of that abounds in a way in any circumstance that is GREATER than GRACE?


And if GRACE is greater in EVERY case of SIN (which it is, because the WORD says that it is)... this is what happens, chosenone -- John 1:29 -- Behold the Lamb of God that TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the WORLD.

http://www.biblestudyproject.org/Satan-and-Demons-messianic.htm#IV._SATAN

Internet links are INVALID as proof.   Anyone can say anything.  I am not the least bit inclined to visit internet sites.  Use the WORD!


Establish yourself in the WORD, where your "beliefs" are concerned... and then you will be SAYING something... for it is GOD's WORD that is speaking, not you.  That is WHY I lay down a Scriptural foundation for all that I say.


So far you have founded NONE of your beliefs, but have provided an internet link.   And you will not be able to found them, for they are not discussed in the WORD of YHVH.  It takes altering ADDITIONS and SUBTRACTIONS, such as HELL, RAPTURE, CULT, etc... in order to establish what you presently believe.  You have (albeit sincerely) adopted what has been fed you by others... be they theologians, pastors, books, movies etc ...


At least to this point, you have not utilized what is STATED in the WORD of YHVH... maybe its high time, you invested yourself in study.


PEACE...    ...willieH

[chosenone]

The link I posted uses the word 100%. WHy are you afraid to read it? Your beliefs are entirely unbiblical. You are in deception. I have been a believer for 40 years now, and I know what I believe. I believe the word. Thank God.

[Red Baker]

Greetings Willie,

I must confess that I have not had time to go back and read this whole thread and maybe I should before asking some questions, but for time sake, which I have very little of at the moment, I will ask some questions and ask you to answer them, so that I would be better informed as to what exactly you believe.

Question #1~Can you explain in a few words your position on "universalism" .

#2~ What do you believe when the scriptures said these words: "Shall not perish? What does perish mean to you, as you understand the scriptures uses of that word, and it is used more than once.

#3~You are part of the Ministry of Reconciliation, I am not fully knowledgeable, or really should say, know very little about it, can you explain some of it to me in  a few words? 

#4~I see where you reject the devil being a created spirit, please explain you yourself in a few words why you believe that~in light of such scriptures as Matthew 4:1-11~specially verse 6 where it said that the devil "saith unto him".   Also, Ephesian 2:2; James 4:7; 1 Chronicles 21:1; Job 1; etc.

I have more but this is a starter.

RB

[willieH]

Greetings Willie,

I must confess that I have not had time to go back and read this whole thread and maybe I should before asking some questions, but for time sake, which I have very little of at the moment, I will ask some questions and ask you to answer them, so that I would be better informed as to what exactly you believe.

Hi Red... 


Actually, I really take a different approach to the WORD of God then do most.  I always seek learning new revelation when I study.  I also seek CORRECTION from the Scriptures.  I do NOT study with a "set in stone" heart that is unwilling to change, or gain enlightenment.  Most religious people especially Christians, will use their philosophy of the WORD, as if it is the PERFECT one, and thereby utilize that foolish, imperfect, and HARDENED mindset to create the separations of the church that we see today.  Reading the SPIRITUAL language and interpreting it with LITERAL observations and conclusions, never gaining true spiritual insight.  Not very unlike the common Atheist might proceed.


In my early beginnings non unlike most other converts, I became a consistent church-goer, quietly accepting what the church taught in their sincerity.  One Sunday in a sermon, the pastor began with -- Isaiah 1:18 -- which notes that GOD invites us to REASON with Him... and during that process, our SINS which were Scarlet (blood red), would become white as snow.   This was the pivotal point in my Christian walk.  As this verse not only notes that we are capable of REASON, but the Divine insists upon it for truthful valid understanding to be conveyed.


God spoke loudly to me in that day... and that voice has never left me since.  REASON must be incorporated within the CORRECT observations of His WORD.  If REASON is not present in your understanding of GOD... then your "understanding" is MISUNDERSTANDING.  Which is WHY it is easy to debunk beliefs which Christianity (in-general) embraces... as most of them are UNREASONABLE.
 

That the vast majority of Christian beliefs (in-general) not only do NOT RHYME with REASON nor do they coincide with the mission of JESUS CHRIST to SAVE the WORLD, but at the same time, are very self oriented and self-centered and motivated, has caused me to question EVERY one of them. 


In fact... I am just about done with the writing of a book that addresses many of these in general Christian beliefs... and shows with the WORD and with REASON (logical progression) that they are NOT AT ALL based in Holy Scriptures.


The question one must ask concerning the proposal of any given "Biblical" belief of any given person or church, is ... Does the term ENTITLING this belief even appear in Scripture?  If not, then in its very TITLE, it is an OBVIOUS addition to the WORD as it has not been spoken by GOD via HIS own WORDS, unto you.  It has been proposed with and by, the words of MAN.


From that point, the examination begins... and whatever a given belief proposes, if found OUT OF HARMONY with REASON... or maintains the inclusion of extra-Biblical SUPPOSITIONS (not stated in the WORD) to what is actually stated by the WORD of GOD, ...just means that I shall REJECT it on the basis of the ABSENCE of those prerequisites.

Question #1~Can you explain in a few words your position on "universalism" .

First... "Universalism" is a term given by man.  I am NOT a "universalist". 


I am a proponent and Divinely called 13 year minister of the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION which IS founded in Scripture, and which notes that the TRESPASSES of MEN are no longer held against them -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- those that choose to IGNORE this Scripture, and propose opposition to it... are they which are MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- which shall find REJECTION from the Savior, of their supposed "wonderful works" which they, in SELF ADORNMENT, pridefully bring before the Savior. 


Much as was CAINS offering was rejected -- Gen 4:5 -- and ABEL had done as GOD's WORDS requested of him... so do I endeavor to do as did Abel. 


Everyone must make his/her own choice in this matter.  The TRUTH is that GOD has declared ALL things to occur as they do -- Isaiah 46:10 -- so even our choices are but the manifestation of HIS DECLARATION of us. 


ALL works done under the Sun are vanity (being manifest in the flesh of sin) -- Ecc 1:14 -- so NO DOINGS of the FLESH, shall carry honor, as they are considered by the doers of them, to be their own - adorning themselves,  ...rather than the setting forth of the GLORY of the FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH God... by proclaiming that HE has decided how each event shall come forth within HIS WORKING of ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11


Until each man has within himself, is COMPLETELY given over himself... the VANITY will continue unto its end.  As long as men, amidst their vanity think that THEY generate that which comes forth within the Creation of YHVH... they each shall ALL fail amidst that vanity.



Second... it is Christianity which has given the observation of the Salvation of ALL men... the title of "universalism".   This is purposed deceit, which seeks to belittle a teaching that is actually stated in the WORD -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- and indeed is the proclamation of the instruction given by JESUS CHRIST to preach the GOSPEL (euaggelizo = good news) of the success of His endeavor.   Perversion of that commission has occurred in modern Christianity, in favor of a presentation of FEAR (teaching of HELL or ANNHILATION = nonexistence after tremendous pain and sorrow), which is seen by most as a motivation to obey by deceived Christians... but is clearly in opposition of the actual DOINGS of LOVE, which CAST OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- and certainly DO NOT ever in any way, promote FEAR, which would be hypocrisy.

#2~ What do you believe when the scriptures said these words: "Shall not perish? What does perish mean to you, as you understand the scriptures uses of that word, and it is used more than once.

To state the meaning of a word IN GENERAL, and not specifically in its context, is speculation...  as the word ALL can be a specific group which is present, or can mean ALL that "are".  Since you have not designated a specific Scripture, I will pick one and explain the meaning within that particular verse's usage of the word "PERISH"... okay? 


2 Pet 3:9 -- the Lord is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH [apollumi], but that ALL should come to REPENTENCE...


There are several things to consider surrounding the word PERISH [#G622 - APOLLUMI] in this statement...  before examining these things... the word APOLLUMI is found mentioned in many places in the New Testament.  A particular portion of Scripture which is pertinent to this one (where APOLLUMI is translated "LOST") are found in -- Luke 15:4-32 -- which are the parables of the LOST SHEEP ...the LOST COIN... and the LOST SON.   


The word APOLLUMI via definition specifically means UTTERLY or FULLY DESTROYED.


The LOST (utterly destroyed) SHEEP, though considered "utterly destroyed" by the Shepherd... was RECOVERED... and was never DEAD... just NOT where he belonged... which was WITH His Shepherd... It is also significant to note that the SHEPHERD went and FOUND the SHEEP, the SHEEP did not find his way back from being "utterly destroyed".


The LOST (utterly destroyed) COIN, though considered "utterly destroyed" by its owner (woman), was never actually DESTROYED... again, just NOT where it belonged... which was WITH its Owner... Again it is also significant to note that the OWNER of the COIN searched and FOUND (recovered) the COIN... the COIN did not find its way back from being "utterly destroyed"


The LOST (utterly destroyed) SON, though considered "utterly destroyed" by His Father, was actually alive but in a destructive environment... again, just not where he belonged... which was WITH His Father...  Again, like the sheep and the coin... it was the recall of the great LOVE of the FATHER that searched out the heart of the Son (recovering him), and IN a state of SELF devalued HUMILITY, brought him back from being "utterly destroyed"


The usage of APOLLUMI in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- is prefaced by the fact that GOD is NOT WILLING that any "PERISH" (are "utterly destroyed").


The word translated "NOT WILLING" in this text is [#G1014 -- BOULEMA] which means by definition, INTENT, RESOLVE, PURPOSE -- (look it up in your Strongs, bro!)
   

That theologians purposely IGNORE this stated INTENT of GOD within His own WORDS,  ...which PERFECTLY coincides with Him SENDING CHRIST to SAVE the WORLD, ...is just verification and witness against their own self-centered, unyielding and vain attempt to embrace their self adorning TRADITION, in the stead of seeking the TRUTH within the Scriptures -- Mark 7:7-9 -- which will cost them dearly in the end -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5


As a called minister of the Ministry of Reconciliation, it does not matter to me that most will not HEAR.   What matters to me, is that I am carrying out what my Father YHVH God has called me to do, remaining faithful to that calling.  It is He which decides who shall hear and who shall not... so I do not worry over results.  I praise Him and move on.  Most of the time, I will be (as was CHRIST), rejected by the RELIGIOUS traditionalists that are deafened by their own vanity... my work only gives me joy... without regret.

#3~You are part of the Ministry of Reconciliation, I am not fully knowledgeable, or really should say, know very little about it, can you explain some of it to me in  a few words?

Well my friend... in short, The MINISTRY of RECONCILATION -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- Col 1:20 -- is the GOSPEL.  News that is SO GOOD... that it cannot be BETTER.  The Angel of God announced the birth of CHRIST in this manner:


Luke 2:9-11 -- and lo, the ANGEL of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them and they were SORE AFRAID! ...And the ANGEL said unto them ...FEAR NOT... for behold, I bring you GOOD TIDINGS [#G2097 - EUAGGELIZO = GOSPEL] of GREAT JOY which shall be to ...ALL PEOPLE... for unto you is born this day in the city of David, a Savior which is CHRIST the Lord.


The very FIRST thing the ANGEL of GOD did was to DISPEL ...FEAR!  Then He announced the GOSPEL = GOOD TIDINGS... which "good tidings" would be for ...ALL PEOPLE.


Any true minister of the GOSPEL [#G2097 - EUAGGELIZO = Good news/good tidings] will do as did the ANGEL of the LORD... first, ...dispel FEAR... and then give the GOOD NEWS to ALL PEOPLE... for it is ALL for which CHRIST died --1 Tim 2:6

#4~I see where you reject the devil being a created spirit, please explain you yourself in a few words why you believe that~in light of such scriptures as Matthew 4:1-11~specially verse 6 where it said that the devil "saith unto him".

Dear Red... sorry there might be more words than you would like.  If you don't have time to read them, copy the answer and read it when you do have time.


When evaluating a Scripture, you must take into consideration applicable verses which explain our questions...  I hope this shall help


Heb 4:15 -- for we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was IN ALL POINTS... tempted ...AS... WE ARE, yet without SIN.


This verse says that JESUS was TEMPTED ...AS... we are.  Be honest, ...has some "red guy with a pitchfork, or a "talking snake", or a "phony angel" come to you each time you have been tempted in your life, Red?  If not, how can the temptation of JESUS be ...AS... are yours?


ADVERSITY has a voice, even though it is not a LIVING thing.  You are hungry... you have no money... you are in the store... and a BIN FULL of candies call out to you - "hey, the store wont miss a couple of these small pieces, why don't you take a few"? 


Or you are in a bar having a beer after work and your wife awaits you at home... and a woman at the bar makes TEMPTING gestures toward you...  Is she some fallen angel which is actually IN the COSTUME of a woman?   Or is she just ADVERSITY giving you the opportunity to DO WRONG?


No actual being spoke to JESUS in His temptation, His FLESH did... James 1:14 says -- EVERY MAN [JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5] -- IS TEMPTED when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed


JESUS' flesh was the very same as is ours... It WARRED against His spirit -- Rom 7:23 --  It called to Him ...AS YOURS calls to you or MINE calls to me!  Only difference is that JESUS did not respond to that "calling" as you and I have during our lives, in every instance of that calling, ...He rejected it - in favor of the WORD.  He met temptation with the WORD...


If you look at the "temptation of CHRIST" (in the text you noted), that particular event was comprised of EACH the things of the WORLD -- listed in -- 1 John 2:16 -- (1) - the lust of the flesh... (2) - the lust of the eyes... and  (3) - the pride of life...


Being greatly weakened in the body and mind by the depletion of FOOD for 40 days...


JESUS was, very, VERY HUNGRY, ...so the ADVERSITY of His members called to Him, knowing that He had the power to do ANYTHING... to change the stones into BREAD (1) the LUST OF THE FLESH -- HE DECLINED -- Matt 4:4


JESUS was also weakened in mind from that fast, so the ADVERSITY of His members called unto Him and the POWER within Him (knowing that the ANGELS would spare Him injury) to CAST himself down...  (3) the PRIDE of LIFE -- HE DECLINED -- Matt 4:7


JESUS in weakened mental state from that fast, from the mountain He knew, able to SEE all things, that He could have power over all the KINGDOMS of the WORLD - NOW, ...so the ADVERSITY of His members, tempted Him via -- (2) the LUST OF THE EYES -- HE DECLINED -- Matt 4:10


ALL three of these can be seen taking place within the mind of EVE during her "original" temptation -- Gen 3:6 -- GOOD for food (lust of the flesh) -- PLEASANT to the sight (lust of the eyes) -- contained WISDOM (unknown information) even though GOD said she would DIE if she ate to gain that "wisdom" (pride of life)

Also, Ephesian 2:2

That religion has convinced you that this "prince" is a fallen angel is not substanciated in this Scripture.  The word "satan" does not appear in this verse... for "satan" to have part in this verse requires a man to ADD that word to it.


The prince of the "power of the air"... is not some "fallen angel"... it is YOUR FLESH actively breathing, and as you BREATHE, you SIN.  You are alive via the BREATH of life, which is IN the AIR YOU breathe!  You are a PRINCE... a SON of God which YHVH Himself calls you "a god" -- Psalm 82:6

James 4:7

When you RESIST each temptation, do you see a Halloween character running off into the sunset, Red? 


Again, the word "satan" does not appear in this verse.  The religious must ADD it to the verse... which is a very big "no-no"! -- Deut 4:2 -- Rev 22:18 -- Prov 30:6

1 Chronicles 21:1

Well, at least the word "satan" is stated in this verse! 


ADVERSITY does not need to be a LIVING being to "stand up" and prompt you to do other than the command of YHVH...  Christianity gives this myth OMNIPRESENCE... believing "satan" to be with everyone all the time...  Wherever GOD is... that which is OPPOSITE Him in principle, IS.  GOD is everywhere... no other being has this characteristic.  This verse does not say that a BEING or ANGEL named "satan" stood up... now does it?

Job 1

Thanks for suggesting this, this Scripture is one of my very favorites!    Of the 19 total mentions of "satan" in the entire OT... FOURTEEN of them are in this book!  Which means poor old "satan" only gets the stage on FIVE other occasions...  ...did he lose popularity?  Or is this OVERBLOWN MYTH just that... Christianity's little demented and distorted FEAR toy? ... 


I can tell you this brother Red... Scripture notes that NO one "counsels GOD" -- Rom 11:34 -- and definitely the suggestions of "satan" made in these passages, come with "counseling", as a potential outcome is suggested.


Btw... wherever the SONS of God are gathered together, ADVERSITY is definitely in the midst -- Job 1:6

Also... Isnt it interesting that "satan" -- Job 1:7 -- was "going to and fro, ...IN... the earth (man is of the dust)... and walking up and down ...IN... it?

Kinda goes along with Pauls notation of another "LAW" which is WARRING ...IN... his members -- Rom 7:23 -- doesn't it?


You will probably laugh,    but...


(1) I believe Job is a PARABOLIC writing that took place in the land of UZ (wonder)  ...it is most definitely not a historical event or report.


(2)  It is also my observation, that this whole writing is GOD "thinking over to Himself" the principality of ADVERSITY - Hey you do it, I do it, everyone does it... so are we so arrogant, that we shall vainly consider that we can do something (think to ourselves) that GOD cannot? 

I have more but this is a starter.

RB

Before I go, ...Let me ask YOU a question Red...


Why does the word "satan" not at ALL, NOT EVEN ONCE, ...appear in the TORAH?  Not once does this word appear in the writings of MOSES... which are the foundational writings of the WORD of YHVH GOD.


Did God forget about this guy?  Not even ONE little mention of him to MOSES?  Don't know about you, but, P-U ...I smell the stink of a religious rat... 


Hey brother Red... Hope I have conveyed my position to you for your further consideration.    



PEACE...    ...willieH

[willieH]

The link I posted uses the word 100%. WHy are you afraid to read it? Your beliefs are entirely unbiblical. You are in deception. I have been a believer for 40 years now, and I know what I believe. I believe the word. Thank God.

I come as did my Savior.  Preaching postives and truth, and the RELIGIOUS will try their best to eliminate me, as they did my Savior, 20 centuries ago.

Okay... I guess in your own way, you are silently saying that you are going to avoid answering my questions (because you obviously have no answers to them), so I may as well live with that fact. 

I am not afraid of your internet link, I am in a discussion with YOU, not an internet link! 


Also, my days are precious (been battling cancer for 5 years), so I will not be distracted by any form of drudgery.   If you have a point, then MAKE it... if not, please know that I am NOT interested in you giving me homework assignments while in discussion with me so that I can be informed of your beliefs.  Don't be a parrot... Learn your beliefs...   


You should at the VERY LEAST, learn what you believe, and at the VERY LEAST, be able to express it.  At the most you should be learning NEW revelation... not sitting on square one of Spirituality.  GOD is INFINITE, and there is INFINITE learning of TRUTH that is available to the devoted and diligent seeker of it...


For those who must employ such a crutch as sending people to another internet site to read what they BELIEVE, I feel deeply sorry for such a present lack of dedication to GOD (no offense is intended, I really feel for you!). 


You should be able to easily express your spiritual life in your own words... or that life really doesn't exist in you.  I do not even need a Bible or Strongs concordance to express the essential Beliefs I hold, and the supportive locations of verifying Scriptures which establish those beliefs as BIBLICAL.


I know what I know, and have committed to memory the texts which support what I KNOW to be TRUTH.


You say my "beliefs" are UNBIBLICAL but fail to specify that which you condemn...  what "beliefs" you are speaking of?   Do you even know what I "believe"?


"KNOWING" the TRUTH is not the important thing.  The IMPORTANT thing is to BE KNOWN ...OF the TRUTH!  That I KNOW JESUS is not a biggie... but for HIM to KNOW ME... wow!  That's HUGE!


Of the MANY which - have/do/will - come in His name... He will say -- Matt 7:23 -- depart from Me, ...I... NEVER KNEW ...YOU!   


The ones that TURN away from TRUTH, are thereby NOT KNOWN of Him -- John 10:37 -- only HIS SHEEP does He KNOW.   His SHEEP shall hear HIS VOICE (not charlaton pastors and ministers, which are seeking money and personal reknown).   and whenever the TRUTH is spoken, ...His SHEEP follow it.   Another's voice will not fool them either.  Once you KNOW the TRUTH... you become part of its UNCHANGINGNESS.


Reading this post you have that opportunity.  Do you hear?  Will you Hear?  Or is playing the church game, too important to you? 


As far as the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION which is the SALVATION of ALL men... the BIBLE speaks quite heartily and quite often on the subject of that TOTAL VICTORY -- Oh DEATH where is thy sting, O Grave where is thy VICTORY? -- 1 Cor 15:54


ALL shall be found ALIVE ...IN CHRIST... worded SPECIFICALLY in:

1 Cor 15:22 -- AS IN Adam ALL DIE... so ...IN CHRIST... shall ALL be made ALIVE! -- (same "ALL")

The DIVINE VICTORY of LIFE, ...over DEATH!  The RANSOM given for ALL is right in front of YOU this moment:

1 Tim 4:9-11 ---  SPEAKS of the SALVATION of ALL
1 Tim 2:3-6  ---  Also SPEAKS of His WILL to SAVE ALL / His RANSOM given for ALL to be TESTFIED in due time!
Rom 5:20 --- SAYS - that GRACE is greater than ANY and ALL SIN.
1 John 2:2  SAYS - that JESUS sacrifice is the PROPITIATION (substitution) for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD
1 John 4:14 --- SAYS - that JESUS was SENT to be the SAVIOR of the WORLD... you think He FAILED?
John 1:29 --- SAYS - Behold the Lamb of GOD which TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the WORLD
John 12:32 -- SAYS - that if He be lifted up (crucified), He would draw ALL MEN unto Him

That is SEVEN Scriptures that heartily prove the SALVATION of ALL MEN, is IN the Bible...  which IS the GOSPEL!  The BEST NEWS possible is that GOD saves ALL MEN!


NOW its your turn - chosenone...

You have stated belief (1) - that YOU can decide who is a CULT, and that you are the decider of who is and is not saved. / (2) - in the Rapture / (3) - some are Going to Heaven / (4) -  some are Going to Hell 

PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which contains and/or defines the word CULT
PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which notes that YOU decide who is and who is NOT SAVED
PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which contains and/or defines the RAPTURE
PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which states that anyone shall "Go to Heaven"
PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which states that anyone shall "Go to Hell"


That is only 5 verses... piece a cake - eh?  I say that you cannot verify even ONE of these with the WORD of GOD.


I have shown that THE SALVATION of ALL MEN is totally BIBLICAL, and is the THEME of the entire Scriptures!  Complete Divine DELIVERANCE is the greatest story of ALL TIME!


I have also shown that nothing you have revealed (to this point) as a belief, is in the Bible at all.  Take the opportunity to change my friend!  JESUS is the PERFECT Savior!  Isn't that GOOD NEWS?


Though you shall likely turn down this invitation, ...I would be happy to debate you (or anyone else) concerning "Christian beliefs"... and will prove them to be FALSE, by incorporating REASON, with the WORD of YHVH...   which should make EVERYONE happy...   If someone showed me with the WORD, that I was blindly believing in mythology... I would immediately rejoice and be thankful for the rescue from that blinded situation!


FYI... I am in chemo therapy, so when treatment time comes, I may slow down for a bit... but I will endeavor to answer any question as best and as soon as I can.


PEACE...     ...willieH

[yomteruah]

Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

[Red Baker]

Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

[yomteruah]

Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

I'm not speaking of rejecting or accepting Augustine as a believer. Origen and Augustine are both "Church Fathers" What i am saying is i would give more weight to the interpretation of scripture (originally written in Greek) from the "Church Fathers" who's native tongues were Greek and not Latin, who at the time were relying on shoddy Latin translations.

[Red Baker]

Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

I'm not speaking of rejecting or accepting Augustine as a believer. Origen and Augustine are both "Church Fathers" What i am saying is i would give more weight to the interpretation of scripture (originally written in Greek) from the "Church Fathers" who's native tongues were Greek and not Latin, who at the time were relying on shoddy Latin translations.

Again, "church fathers" means little to me, except the apostles, if their teaching do not follow what I can read in my English bible~Galatians 1:8,9  Augustine I have the most respect for among them all, and no doubt was a godly and faithful teacher of the word of God.  I love his City of God on Revelation twenty.

Augustine was no Universalist~and it was he whom Luther and Calvin followed in much of their teachings. 

[Catholica]

Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

I'm not speaking of rejecting or accepting Augustine as a believer. Origen and Augustine are both "Church Fathers" What i am saying is i would give more weight to the interpretation of scripture (originally written in Greek) from the "Church Fathers" who's native tongues were Greek and not Latin, who at the time were relying on shoddy Latin translations.

The Vulgate was no shoddy Latin translation.  It was done by an absolute master of Hebrew and Greek in St. Jerome, who had not only access to earlier transcripts than we do today but also a nearness to the culture, which is very important in Bible translation.

[yomteruah]

Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

I'm not speaking of rejecting or accepting Augustine as a believer. Origen and Augustine are both "Church Fathers" What i am saying is i would give more weight to the interpretation of scripture (originally written in Greek) from the "Church Fathers" who's native tongues were Greek and not Latin, who at the time were relying on shoddy Latin translations.

The Vulgate was no shoddy Latin translation.  It was done by an absolute master of Hebrew and Greek in St. Jerome, who had not only access to earlier transcripts than we do today but also a nearness to the culture, which is very important in Bible translation.

Augustine didn't use the Vulgate. He used a collection of Latin writings of the scriptures called the Vetus Latina which pre dates the Vulgate in which much of the translating is "shoddy."

[B-man]

 

Such passages, interpreted properly, do not support universalism:

            * John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).

This is why literalism tangles the feet and and causes its users to fall flat.  One of the key tenets of literalism is, "if a verse makes plain sense, there's no need to look for any other sense."  Then the literalist performs all sorts of intellectual gymnastics breaking this  or some other literalist rule.  All you've done here is take one of the Bible's plain, clear univeralist verses and "modified" it with the popular eternal hell doctrine.

* Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)

Paul is quoting Isa 45:23.  NASB translates this as "... every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."  To swear allegiance is to be on the "same side".

* First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.

This is half right.  The answer is metaphysical...God allows man's will to lead him where he wants to go in the TEMPORAL.  The nature of time is mutability, and God freely adapts to the changeableness He designed into spatiotemporal reality.  One way He does this is in allowing man to defy His will, but only in time.  In the ETERNAL realm, however, God's decrees are sovereign and immutable.  What He says goes in eternality: "So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isa 55:11)  God allows His desire that all be saved from His purifying wrath IN TIME to be resisted by the human will because in the end  His ETERNAL decrees--Jn 12:32, for example--are inviolable.

The Scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes (saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers), and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities (heaven or hell).

True, as long as you understand what "heaven" and "hell" actually are and don't make the mistake of forcing an eternal decree on the latter.  (The Bible is full of metaphors, which the organized church shuts out with its manmade literalism, and herein lie the deeper answers to questions we don't really want to know the answers to.)  If you use the temporal/eternal distinction noted above, you'll be able to interpret Paul in Rom 11 properly.  This book is full of both Paul's universalism and his two classes.  He goes to great pains to make the latter point in the being grafted into or cut off as a branch from the "wild olive tree" of Christ....then goes on to make the astonishing statement that make no mistake, the mystery of salvation is that all Israel will be saved (v. 26)  Traditionalists always inject tensions into this plain, literal truth Paul wrote in Rom 11, twisting his meaning to fit popular doctrine.  Truth demands freedom from logical tensions.  The way to interpret the apostle without tension is to apply the eternal/temporal distinction.  Do you see it, or are you afraid to think outside the box lest you find yourself shoved out the door, kicked out of the club?

[hearjesus]

I Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

I Cor 5:4,5 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [See I Peter 4:6!]

I Cor 13:8 Love never fails.


I Cor 15:22,28

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... [Ed., This phrase is the real key to understanding God's purposes in relation to His time schedule.] "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."

I Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."


II Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

II Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was [Ed., and is] in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."


Eph 1:9,10 He make known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.

Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:8-11 To me [Paul]...this grace was given...to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 4:5,6 There is...one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

Phil 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Phil 3;21 ...who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Col 1:19-22 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.


Col 3:11 Christ is all, and in all.


I Tim 1:13 Even though I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor, yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief.


I Tim 1:15 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I [Paul] am foremost.

[Ed., Again, if Paul is the foremost sinner, then hasn't God's plan of redemption been accomplished to the foremost?]
I Tim 2:5,6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne at the proper time.


I Tim 4:10 It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Heb 1:2 In these last days He has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Heb 2:8 For in subjecting all things to him [ie., man], He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him...But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.

Heb 9:26 But now once at the consummation He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

I Pet 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

I Pet 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah...

I Pet 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that even though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (see I Cor 5:5)

II Pet 3:8,9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing [literally "not purposing", from the Greek: boulema, "predetermined purpose"] that any should perish but for all to come to repentance.


I John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Rev 15:3,4 And they sang the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the Nations. Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed."

All thumbs up! Being a Universalist who believe in eventual universal salvation, one of my most favorite verses is 1Corinthians 15:22 & C.

May the peace of Christ be upon you.