How to please the Lord? - The only way is GRACE

[INJ]

INJ stated:

Please do not presume to read my mind, only God can do that. If my words do not suffice, ask.

This is not a misconception nor a strange doctrine. It is the word of God. John Wesley preached the same and a multitude of others. Read the parable of the sower my friend, then get back to me.
=============================================

I'm guessing this comment was for me and not Jimmy...............soooooooooooooo..............

I don't have to read your mind (only God and you know your mind, just as only God and I know my mind), beause I've read your posts from the first day you began to post on Grace Centered.  As I recall, you posted 10 or 11 different threads/subjects on the Theology Forum all within a few minutes of first signing on.  You almost managed to take over the entire 1st page of the Theology Forum, but I stopped you from doing that by moving several of your posts to different forums.

Now, with regards to this thread, you are not teaching the Word of God, you are teaching your opinion of the Word of God; and, if you would state it that way, then I would have no problem with it.  However, when you suggest that your opinion IS the Word of God, then I got a problem.

Your first statement in this thread (that faith is a gift just as Grace is), is not Biblical.  As well, OSAS is not Biblical.  It ain't hard to see where this is going, or coming from.  Predestination!  The idea that man has nothing to do with his salvation.  God has already predetermined who will be saved and who won't.................ergo OSAS no matter what you do................ergo everything is a gift from God and man is just a puppet on a string that God jiggles as He wishes.

Now, if you want to state that this is your opinion, well, that's fine, but it ain't Biblical.  All the scriptrures disproving your opinion have been given here many, many times...............there is nothing new under the sun here....................

With all respect: According even to your forum rules I can say something is the word of God if I quote the word of God, just as you can say it is not the word of God if you quote the word of God. But I am constantly maligned in attitude and words which is not restrained and is against the forum rules as far as I am aware. Granted you are a moderator on here and if you believe I am not quoting the word of God then please let me know and I will apologise.

So correct me if I am wrong, just so I know. I cannot say blah blah blah is the word of God but someone else can say blah blah blah is the word of God? I can't say that "the word teaches faith and grace are a gift of God", but someone else can say "the word teaches faith isn't a gift?" -  I will endeavour to alway use references and scriptures more often

I am not on my own. I would not have got manna on here if no-one agreed with me. Even the post vote agrees with what I have said. I have not made this doctrine up, neither am I part of a cult, as I have been maligned previously. I am a spirit filled believer. I am student of the word and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I was saved at the age of 3, convicted of my sin as a child, used of God to heal the sick, deliver the oppressed, I do good to widows and orphans and reveal the love of God to all as revealed to myself by the Holy Spirit and confirmed by the word of God, many witnesses, fathers in the faith and with a good conscience. I am a minister of reconciliation and I am not ashamed of the Gospel I preach.

I work hard, have a strong faith, but this is all of God and none of myself.

It is clear you have a poor opinion of me. Pity, as I wish all would accept that Salvation is all of God and nothing about US.... those who know this will cast their crowns at our Lords feet.

The word of God was not meant to be used as a sword, nor a hammer on believers, merely a mirror. The sword against the dark forces not against flesh and blood and the hammer for unbelievers.

Incidentally I have no idea what OSAS is at all, neither do I believe that what we do has no effect on our future or that of others.

[Glorious]

But faith is added to grace. Grace is God's part, faith is man's part.

Romans 12:3  ". . God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
 

Additionally, 1 Cor. 12:8-9 declares: For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

So, we have Romans 12:3 and 1 Cor. 12:9 clearly stating that faith is a gift from God (who is also Spirit). How then is faith generated by a man? Are the scriptures wrong? God forbid that the scripture, which is inspired by God, is wrong.

Faith is a gift from God.

[INJ]

But faith is added to grace. Grace is God's part, faith is man's part.

Romans 12:3  ". . God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
 

Additionally, 1 Cor. 12:8-9 declares: For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

So, we have Romans 12:3 and 1 Cor. 12:9 clearly stating that faith is a gift from God (who is also Spirit). How then is faith generated by a man? Are the scriptures wrong? God forbid that the scripture, which is inspired by God, is wrong.

Faith is a gift from God.

Amen Glorious....at last.....Manna to you

[Jimmy]

But faith is added to grace. Grace is God's part, faith is man's part.

Romans 12:3  ". . God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
 

You need to go back and give careful consideration to Romans 12:3.  That passage, particularly, the expression "measure of faith", is notoriously difficult.  The word "measure" there may be a standard by which something is measured or it can mean the amount or quantity measured out in a particular situation.  In context of Romans 12, I would argue that it is not faith which is being dealt, given or distributed but the "measure" itself. The main points of the verse, in the context of the chapter are (1) each Christian has a gift; (2) these gifts are not all the same; (3) each one's gift has been given to him by God  and (4) one's gift is therefore no basis for feelings of superiority over others.

Thus I believe the import of that passage is that God has given to each Christain a measured ability that is appropriate to or that corresponds to his own faith.

[Jimmy]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

[Gomer]

Question: How are we saved?
1) By Grace alone through the gift of faith!
2) By Grace alone but being obedient to what we know
3) Pleasing God by going to church
4) Praying to God, spending time with him
5) Going to Church every Sunday
6) Rejecting Sunday's and following the Sabbath and other OT commands

1) God is delighted by those that obey His will, 1 Sam 15:22 and God has displeasure and will have vengeance upon those that do not obey His will, 1 Cor 10:5ff, 2 Thess 1:8.

2) the word 'alone' is exclusionary.  If salvation were by "grace alone" then that would exclude faith.  So salvation cannot be by grace alone, salvation is by God's grace through man's faith.  Grace alone does not save nor does faith alone save, it takes BOTH as Eph 2:8 shows.

3) this means none of the options given above saves.  The correct option would be: Salvation takes BOTH God's grace and man's faith and man having faith is a form of obedience.

[Johnb]

Here is Rom 12:3 in context

Romans 12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

This is talking about man's part.  It is simply saving God has given each person the ability (free will) to have faith.  If He has given the gift of faith to all all will be saved and that is not the message of God's word.

[Johnb]

1 Corinthians 12
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


So only some Christians have faith?  Proof text seldom prove the point folks are trying to make.

[larry2]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

[DaveW]

I cannot vote in your poll.  There is not one option that even comes close. And the poll and title of the thread seem to have little to do with each other.

For the title: We please God by walking in faith. (not on your list)

Heb 11.6 Without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to him, for he who comes to God must believe that he exists, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him.

and to the poll question about salvation:

We are saved by taking on to ourselves the obligations of the New Covenant. (again nothing like it is on the list)

It takes faith, it takes grace, it takes (initially) a heart purposed on obedience and then that obedience needs to be demonstrated.

Eternal life, freedom from sin, etc all come from that taking on the New Covenant.

[Glorious]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

Note the emboldened in above post.

Paul asked and answered thrice about above kind of a mindset that tries to dictate to God how He should operate or do things. For example, as questions, Rom. 3:3,5 and7 declare: 3.  For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
5.  But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
7.  For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

God forbid that I say "then it is God's doing that I am not saved and is no fault of my own". Of course, it is not God's fault that a man is not saved. It is the fault of the (un)believing man who has not asked to receive the gift of the faith of God.

God decides to give and makes available His gift of faith when I ask for His faith. Scripture instructs that I ask to be given His gift of faith; not just asking for the sake of asking, but it must be my asking in His name in order to receive His faith (John 16:24: Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.)

If some men do not have the gift of the faith of God, what shall we say? Is God a respecter of persons who takes vengeance against those who have no faith (I ask a man)?

Well, brethren, the answer is this and it is a very simple answer that is consistent with scripture: God forbid! For then how shall God judge the world of those who do not ask to receive His faith, or those who having recieved the gift of faith fall by the way side and persist in their unrighteousness?

Problem is that many do not even ask for the gift of faith, let alone know how to ask correctly. So, they do not receive the gift of faith. If a man is not fully persuaded (a believer), his lack of full persuasion does not make the gift of the faith of God without effect for those who receive.

Let every believer in Jesus Christ ask for the gift of the faith of God.

[INJ]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

In regards to the parable of the sower, if you look faith is not taken away but the word. It is taken away through not understanding, it is choked by the cares of this world, and does not remain due to persecution. The word is a seed

God never fails in my opinion and I believe the word of God. Faith is not in some because of doubt, unbelief and fear. If we only need faith as small as a mustard seed to move a mountain, faith is surely not the issue, but doubt.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003) - Luke 17:6
And the Lord said, If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say unto this sycamine tree, Be plucked up by the root, and be planted in the sea; and it would obey you.

American King James Version - Mat 17:20
And Jesus said to them, Because of your unbelief: for truly I say to you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you.

Luke and Matthew - faith is not an issue it is doubt and unbelief....

So in my opinion - faith is a gift of God, but those who doubt never enter into God's promises because of instability and self-effort.  King James 2000 Bible (©2003) - James 1:8
A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. King James 2000 Bible (©2003) Hebrews 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Just to add another scripture...to show doubt is the problem not faith....

King James 2000 Bible (©2003) - Mark 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be removed, and be cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he said shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he said.

In my opinion the kingdom of God is not about human logic, but divine revelation....revelation by the word of God.....the written...Logos....and the voice of God...Rhema ....those who do not doubt enter in those who doubt are tossed like the waves.

So I maintain that grace is a gift, faith is a gift, every good and perfect thing is a gift - American King James Version James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no ficklenss, neither shadow of turning.

I believe Gods word...so when he says every he means every, when he says every gift he means every gift.

God is not unjust....but no-one can come to the son unless the father draws him - American Standard Version John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Salvation in my opinion as I believe the word of God and preach is ALL of God, lest any man boast. So you do not need to trust in your faith, even when it is failing but a loving, powerful God who is there in time of need.

[INJ]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

Note the emboldened in above post.

Paul asked and answered thrice about above kind of a mindset that tries to dictate to God how He should operate or do things. For example, as questions, Rom. 3:3,5 and7 declare: 3.  For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
5.  But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
7.  For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

God forbid that I say "then it is God's doing that I am not saved and is no fault of my own". Of course, it is not God's fault that a man is not saved. It is the fault of the (un)believing man who has not asked to receive the gift of the faith of God.

God decides to give and makes available His gift of faith when I ask for His faith. Scripture instructs that I ask to be given His gift of faith; not just asking for the sake of asking, but it must be my asking in His name in order to receive His faith (John 16:24: Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.)

If some men do not have the gift of the faith of God, what shall we say? Is God a respecter of persons who takes vengeance against those who have no faith (I ask a man)?

Well, brethren, the answer is this and it is a very simple answer that is consistent with scripture: God forbid! For then how shall God judge the world of those who do not ask to receive His faith, or those who having recieved the gift of faith fall by the way side and persist in their unrighteousness?

Problem is that many do not even ask for the gift of faith, let alone know how to ask correctly. So, they do not receive the gift of faith. If a man is not fully persuaded (a believer), his lack of full persuasion does not make the gift of the faith of God without effect for those who receive.

Let every believer in Jesus Christ ask for the gift of the faith of God.

Glorious...manna again...AMEN very good.

[Glorious]

Thanks, INJ.

[gospel]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

Note the emboldened in above post.

Paul asked and answered thrice about above kind of a mindset that tries to dictate to God how He should operate or do things. For example, as questions, Rom. 3:3,5 and7 declare: 3.  For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
5.  But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
7.  For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

God forbid that I say "then it is God's doing that I am not saved and is no fault of my own". Of course, it is not God's fault that a man is not saved. It is the fault of the (un)believing man who has not asked to receive the gift of the faith of God.

God decides to give and makes available His gift of faith when I ask for His faith. Scripture instructs that I ask to be given His gift of faith; not just asking for the sake of asking, but it must be my asking in His name in order to receive His faith (John 16:24: Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.)

If some men do not have the gift of the faith of God, what shall we say? Is God a respecter of persons who takes vengeance against those who have no faith (I ask a man)?

Well, brethren, the answer is this and it is a very simple answer that is consistent with scripture: God forbid! For then how shall God judge the world of those who do not ask to receive His faith, or those who having recieved the gift of faith fall by the way side and persist in their unrighteousness?

Problem is that many do not even ask for the gift of faith, let alone know how to ask correctly. So, they do not receive the gift of faith. If a man is not fully persuaded (a believer), his lack of full persuasion does not make the gift of the faith of God without effect for those who receive.

Let every believer in Jesus Christ ask for the gift of the faith of God.

Glorious...manna again...AMEN very good.

Ditto!

[Gomer]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

[larry2]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

In regards to the parable of the sower, if you look faith is not taken away but the word. It is taken away through not understanding, it is choked by the cares of this world, and does not remain due to persecution. The word is a seed

The word that God gives produces the faith; faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. At least that is my present thought on it.

[DaveW]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination;

Now I am no one's calvinist.  But what you are saying is based entirely on pagan logic. (Aristotleian) While it works fine for the physical world it has no bearing on matters of faith and spirit.

Even if God specifically chose someone to not be saved (and I do not believe that he does that) it would still be that person's fault and not God's. HE uses a different logic system.

[gospel]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

The problem is not God, but in our understanding of His Ways...

Scripture says God knows the ending from the beginning

It also says God knows our every though afar off our comings and our goings

It also says God looks upon the heart

So again we have Peter's sin, a sin which most of us would consider the greatest of sins...denying Jesus, an adamant denial of even knowing Jesus!

Jesus already foreknew Peter would sin

Jesus already foreknew Peter would come back

Peter acted of his own choosing yet.....JESUS FOREKNEW WHAT PETER DID NOT

In addition

Jesus dealt with the matter by prayer...

His prayer was that when Peter returned he would strengthen the others

What is that But Pure Unadulterated Grace?

How in the world could Peter possibly strengthen the others after a sin of utter weakness as denying Jesus?

ONLY BY A PROFESSION OF HIS PERSONAL FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE OF THE LOVE AND GRACE OF JESUS SHOWED HIM

That is what strengthens us...GRACE AND LOVE!

It's all by Grace in ways we have yet to fully understand and because we do not understand it....

.... does not make it not so

Lord help us to understand

[Glorious]

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

Substitute the word "faith" with any other gift from God such as His "grace" or "mercy" from the post above. Romans 9:14-23 are scriptures that answer:

What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


In same way (and understanding) that scriptures above saith, saith I:


What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to us, I will give faith on whom I will give faith, and I will have pleasure in whom I will have pleasure.

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that gives the gift of faith.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore does He give faith to whom he will [whosever believes and asks for His faith], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto His pleasure, and another unto displeasure?


Gospel and Dave W, thanks for your posts!

[Gomer]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

The problem is not God, but in our understanding of His Ways...

Scripture says God knows the ending from the beginning

It also says God knows our every though afar off are comings and are goings

It also says God looks upon the heart

So again we have Peter's sin, a sin which most of us would consider the greatest of sins...denying Jesus, an adamant denial of even knowing Jesus!

Jesus already foreknew Peter would sin

Jesus already foreknew Peter would come back

Peter acted of his own choosing yet.....JESUS FOREKNEW WHAT PETER DID NOT

In addition

Jesus dealt with the matter by prayer...

His prayer was that when Peter returned he would strengthen the others

What is that But Pure Unadulterated Grace?

How in the world could Peter possibly strengthen the others after a sin of utter weakness as denying Jesus?

ONLY BY A PROFESSION OF HIS PERSONAL FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE OF THE LOVE AND GRACE OF JESUS SHOWED HIM

That is what strengthens us...GRACE AND LOVE!

It's all by Grace in ways we have yet to fully understand and because we do not understand it....

.... does not make it not so

Lord help us to understand

THis does not resolve the problem.  If faith is required to be saved and God does not give me this required faith, then that makes God culpable for the lost. 

If faith is obtained  from God as a gift, how could He consistently condemn men for the lack of it (Mark 16:16), or how could he exhort men to believe (John 20:27)?' (McGarvey p. 491)

[Gomer]

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

Substitute the word "faith" with any other gift from God such as His "grace" or "mercy" from the post above. Romans 9:14-23 are scriptures that answer:

What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


In same way (and understanding) that scriptures above saith, saith I:


What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to us, I will give faith on whom I will give faith, and I will have pleasure in whom I will have pleasure.

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that gives the gift of faith.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore does He give faith to whom he will [whosever believes and asks for His faith], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto His pleasure, and another unto displeasure?


Gospel and Dave W, thanks for your posts!

You cannot make this substitution for faith is not the same as grace or mercy.


Rom 9:15 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. "

This verse does not give the basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others but we know from other bible verses that God uses man's obedience to His will as that basis.  Pharaoh did not obey so he did not receive mercy as the king of Nineveh who did obey, Jonah 3, and did receive mercy.

Rom 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? "  

Again, what basis does the potter use to determine if one is to be fashioned a vessel of honor or dishonor?  Is it randomly?  No, Jer 18:8,10.

Romans 9 does not in any way remotely teach that God forces one against his will into faithlessness and then punishes him for not having faith that God refused to give him.

[cs80918]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

If God did not give you faith then you should brag and pat yourself on your back and boost about yourself.  You should be very proud of yourself and esteem yourself higher than others and praise yourself.

You should be happy that salvation was EARNED through yourself, because of your totally indepenent GOOD WORK.

You should be put up on a a stage and praised all praise to the holy Gomer.

[cs80918]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

I don't know the complete wisdom of God or his will and neither do you Gomer.

Romans 9:19
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

[Gomer]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

If God did not give you faith then you should brag and pat yourself on your back and boost about yourself.  You should be very proud of yourself and esteem yourself higher than others and praise yourself.

You should be happy that salvation was EARNED through yourself, because of your totally indepenent GOOD WORK.

You should be put up on a a stage and praised all praise to the holy Gomer.

Having faith does not earn salvation for faith is a necessary condition that God has placed upon salvation.  

Your view of faith would make God culpable for the lost.

[Johnb]

Gomer
A rare occasion, You Jimmy and I plus scripture agree on this matter.

Belief being a work that earns salvation?  I think that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

[cs80918]

The problem remains that if faith is a gift of God and some do not have the faith in Christ Jesus to be saved, then it is God's doing that they not be saved and is no fault of their own.  That of course is right in line with the Calvinist agenda of double predestination; an agenda I believe to be absolutely abhorant and against the very nature of God as presented in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 3:2  ". . all men have not faith. What happened to the measure of faith dealt to them by God?

You might consider the "Parable of the sower" in the gospel of Mark, chapter 4. Mark 4:14-15  The sower soweth the word. 15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 12:28  There is little faith, "O ye of little faith?"

Romans 14:1 Some are "weak in the faith."  
 
2 Timothy 1:5  There is "unfeigned faith that is in thee."  

God cannot be blamed for the gift, or the measure of faith we have.

If the only way I can have faith is by God giving faith to me, then God would be to blame if I had no faith.  How can I be blamed for not having faith when having faith would be completely out of my control?  Unbelief is sin, Jn 16:8,9, therefore if God does not give me faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief, then God eternally punishes me in hell for a sin God caused me to commit.  This idea does not fit the loving, merciful, graceful character of the God that the bible describes.

If God did not give you faith then you should brag and pat yourself on your back and boost about yourself.  You should be very proud of yourself and esteem yourself higher than others and praise yourself.

You should be happy that salvation was EARNED through yourself, because of your totally indepenent GOOD WORK.

You should be put up on a a stage and praised all praise to the holy Gomer.

Having faith does not earn salvation for faith is a necessary condition that God has placed upon salvation.  

Your view of faith would make God culpable for the lost.

Gomer if I am following you correctly, you believe that we can some how do a WORK or WORKS that earn our salvation?

[gospel]

THis does not resolve the problem.  If faith is required to be saved and God does not give me this required faith, then that makes God culpable for the lost.  

The only unresolved problem that exists is in our understanding...

Lets review Again....

Peter was chosen by Jesus to be the leader of the 12

Jesus foreknew that Peter would commit a great sin in denying Him and still chose him

That is Grace in a nutshell!

Furthermore....

Peter did not know he would deny Jesus and he certainly never thought or intended to deny Jesus

Despite Jesus telling Peter what PETER WOULD DO....

and...

Despite PETER DENYING HE WOULD DO WHAT JESUS SAID HE WOULD

PETER DID IT ANYWAY

Knowing in advance what Jesus said did not prevent Peter from choosing to deny Jesus!

Denying that he would ever deny Jesus did not prevent Peter from choosing to deny Jesus!

Did Peter deny Jesus by choice?...YES!

Now lets suppose Peter did not choose as he did

....would Jesus have been wrong? YES!

Could Jesus ever be wrong? NO!

So...did Jesus saying it make it so....YES!

But does that mean Jesus caused Peter to do what he did?....OF COURSE NOT!

But the mere fact that Jesus said something would occur means that which He has stated would occur will surely come to past

All of this I have put for does not really argue any final satisfactory conclusion other than ....

We can only understand what we see in terms of what is presented

Other than that we do not understand predestination and the foreknowledge of God in a way that can make total sense to human understanding

But we can see in the scriptures Predestination is in fact a reality, in ways beyond our ability to understand  


If being the leader of the 12 and preaching the 1st New Testament message somehow relied on Peter's choices ....Peter would have been through, finished..kaput, before the Day of Pentecost...

Without The Unmerited Grace of God, by his own efforts...
Peter would have never made it to the upper room 

[fish153]

Praise God!!

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy". (Rom. 9:16)

Salvation is ALL OF GRACE!!

Thank you dear brothers and sisters who know this and proclaim it. None of us will have one thing to boast of on that day---that is why we will throw our crowns at the feet of Jesus--it is ALL OF GOD.

[cs80918]

THis does not resolve the problem.  If faith is required to be saved and God does not give me this required faith, then that makes God culpable for the lost.  

The only unresolved problem that exists is in our understanding...

Lets review Again....

Peter was chosen by Jesus to be the leader of the 12

Jesus foreknew that Peter would commit a great sin in denying Him and still chose him

That is Grace in a nutshell!

Furthermore....

Peter did not know he would deny Jesus and he certainly never thought or intended to deny Jesus

Despite Jesus telling Peter what PETER WOULD DO....

and...

Despite PETER DENYING HE WOULD DO WHAT JESUS SAID HE WOULD

PETER DID IT ANYWAY

Knowing in advance what Jesus said did not prevent Peter from choosing to deny Jesus!

Denying that he would ever deny Jesus did not prevent Peter from choosing to deny Jesus!

Did Peter deny Jesus by choice?...YES!

Now lets suppose Peter did not choose as he did

....would Jesus have been wrong? YES!

Could Jesus ever be wrong? NO!

So...did Jesus saying it make it so....YES!

But does that mean Jesus caused Peter to do what he did?....OF COURSE NOT!

But the mere fact that Jesus said something would occur means that which He has stated would occur will surely come to past

All of this I have put for does not really argue any final satisfactory conclusion other than ....

We can only understand what we see in terms of what is presented

Other than that we do not understand predestination and the foreknowledge of God in a way that can make total sense to human understanding

But we can see in the scriptures Predestination is in fact a reality, in ways beyond our ability to understand  


If being the leader of the 12 and preaching the 1st New Testament message somehow relied on Peter's choices ....Peter would have been through, finished..kaput, before the Day of Pentecost...

Without The Unmerited Grace of God, by his own efforts...
Peter would have never made it to the upper room 

I agree.

Is God unjust?

Is God evil for doing this? No

It is good and right and we just don't understand it completely.

How can I give myself credit for accepting Jesus as my God and savior?  If I did it on my own would that not give me room to praise myself?

[gospel]

THis does not resolve the problem.  If faith is required to be saved and God does not give me this required faith, then that makes God culpable for the lost.  

The only unresolved problem that exists is in our understanding...

Lets review Again....

Peter was chosen by Jesus to be the leader of the 12

Jesus foreknew that Peter would commit a great sin in denying Him and still chose him

That is Grace in a nutshell!

Furthermore....

Peter did not know he would deny Jesus and he certainly never thought or intended to deny Jesus

Despite Jesus telling Peter what PETER WOULD DO....

and...

Despite PETER DENYING HE WOULD DO WHAT JESUS SAID HE WOULD

PETER DID IT ANYWAY

Knowing in advance what Jesus said did not prevent Peter from choosing to deny Jesus!

Denying that he would ever deny Jesus did not prevent Peter from choosing to deny Jesus!

Did Peter deny Jesus by choice?...YES!

Now lets suppose Peter did not choose as he did

....would Jesus have been wrong? YES!

Could Jesus ever be wrong? NO!

So...did Jesus saying it make it so....YES!

But does that mean Jesus caused Peter to do what he did?....OF COURSE NOT!

But the mere fact that Jesus said something would occur means that which He has stated would occur will surely come to past

All of this I have put for does not really argue any final satisfactory conclusion other than ....

We can only understand what we see in terms of what is presented

Other than that we do not understand predestination and the foreknowledge of God in a way that can make total sense to human understanding

But we can see in the scriptures Predestination is in fact a reality, in ways beyond our ability to understand  


If being the leader of the 12 and preaching the 1st New Testament message somehow relied on Peter's choices ....Peter would have been through, finished..kaput, before the Day of Pentecost...

Without The Unmerited Grace of God, by his own efforts...
Peter would have never made it to the upper room 

I agree.

Is God unjust?

Is God evil for doing this? No

It is good and right and we just don't understand it completely.

How can I give myself credit for accepting Jesus as my God and savior?  If I did it on my own would that not give me room to praise myself?

Manna!

[candy]

God's ways are way above man's.  There are so many variables.  We can please God by being obedient, but I think He looks into the heart of man and knows our condition way better than we do.  Imagine how the Lord sees sin.  He sent His own son to die for us and take on our sin so we could be together with Him again.  Looking at that through sin or love, either way it's too amazing for us to truly comprehend.  I just take God at His word.  It's a lot easier that way.  With God all things are possible, but not with man.
Candy

[larry2]

Romans 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This is talking of Elijah and Israel; has God changed?

[Jimmy]

Gomer
A rare occasion, You Jimmy and I plus scripture agree on this matter.

Belief being a work that earns salvation?  I think that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

Amen and more.

Belief being a work that earns salvation?  I think that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

Repentance being a work that earns salvation?  I think that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

Confession being a work that earns salvation?  I think that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

Baptism being a work that earns salvation?  I think that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

Doing the will of the Father being a work that earns salvation?  I think that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

[gospel]

Please not the downward spiral again