Eschatology

[LightHammer]

I want to deal with your Beast theory.

Please lead out by stating what exactly it is and your evidence for it.

[Insight]

Lets us begin with something of a quiet start to our discussion.

A simple statement in relation to Daniels Prophecy.

I believe the imagery in Daniels Prophesies of Beasts speak to the rise and fall of nations or empires and that the same imagery though given through the eyes of Neb is that of a mighty warrior showing forth the pride and pomp of man.

Dan 2 & 7, are in fact the same symbolism but with different imagery...

It is God who revealed these empires using the symbology of Beasts to characterise certain elements applicable to their empire and their end

Really what I am seeking here is your understanding of the symbology adopted by God to demonstrate the nations.

Insight

[Insight]

LH

As you may be aware the apocalypse is one of unveiling something which has been disclosed or hidden; a revelation of divine secrets which are revealed by divine purpose.  I have found in my studies that Daniel and Revelation possess some wonderful commonality in regards to the style and symbology they harmonise beautifully to provide us powerful insight into the Mind of the Father and now the Son.

I will be referring to both books showing forth a connection and theme. Both books record the dramatic crises, the rise and fall of nations symbolised as beasts, the emphasis on the time of the end, appear in both books.

Another symbol as Daniel was revealed is the "man of the one" (Dan 10) and The Revelation its "one like unto the Son of man" (Rev. 1).

Daniel sees the Ancient of Days enthroned and manifested in the earth; and John sees "the appearance  of one upon a throne" whose likeness is to God and man.  Daniel tells of visions of beasts striving for the mastery; and similar visions are seen by John in Patmos.

Both stand upon the sands of the sea, and describe the effect of the storm that rages thereon (Dan. 7:2; Rev. 13:1).

Both books outline the final outcome of the Divine purpose in similar terms. Daniel declares that "the God of heaven shall set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed" (though itself overthrowing other kingdoms Dan. 2:44); and John hears voices in the political heavens proclaiming:

"The kingdom of this world is become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ and He shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15).

In speaking to the topic of beasts we shall find the Spirit draws us into the imagery of perverse animals which reveal their ferocious anger consuming lands peoples and nations.

I look forward to entering the Word once more to find the hidden knowledge of Yahweh.

Insight

[LightHammer]

I am not exactly sure what you want from me.

[Insight]

I am not exactly sure what you want from me.

Nothing at present.

I wanted to lay a foundation showing forth the common message/symbols from both the books of Daniel and Revelation.

You may like to comment on the below should you agree/disagree

Both books record the dramatic crises, the rise and fall of nations symbolised as beasts, the emphasis on the time of the end, appear in both books.

After this you may like to guide me in regards to which beast you wish to discuss.

We have four (4) in Daniel and four (4) in Revelation though the beasts of Revelation are in fact the same beast in different phases of its developement?

Insight

[LightHammer]

I am not exactly sure what you want from me.

Nothing at present.

I wanted to lay a foundation showing forth the common message/symbols from both the books of Daniel and Revelation.

You may like to comment on the below should you agree/disagree

Both books record the dramatic crises, the rise and fall of nations symbolised as beasts, the emphasis on the time of the end, appear in both books.

After this you may like to guide me in regards to which beast you wish to discuss.

We have four (4) in Daniel and four (4) in Revelation though the beasts of Revelation are in fact the same beast in different phases of its developement?

Insight

Daniel is pretty much agreed upon among all eschatological schools of thought. Let's deal with Revelation. The Beasts of the Sea and Land.

[Insight]

I am not exactly sure what you want from me.

Nothing at present.

I wanted to lay a foundation showing forth the common message/symbols from both the books of Daniel and Revelation.

You may like to comment on the below should you agree/disagree

Both books record the dramatic crises, the rise and fall of nations symbolised as beasts, the emphasis on the time of the end, appear in both books.

After this you may like to guide me in regards to which beast you wish to discuss.

We have four (4) in Daniel and four (4) in Revelation though the beasts of Revelation are in fact the same beast in different phases of its developement?

Insight

Daniel is pretty much agreed upon among all eschatological schools of thought. Let's deal with Revelation. The Beasts of the Sea and Land.

So you agree the 4th terrible beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire (Iron)? This would reduce my work load in Revelation if this was so...

[Insight]

Daniel's night vision of Four Beasts.

1.   like a Lion
2.   a Bear
3.   a Leopard;
4.   the fourth was like nothing seen among beasts.  

LH, it is this last and final fourth beast of Dan 7:23 which must be considered in the Revelation as we are told it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it, which must be read to mean as per the interpretation of Dan 7 "diverse from all kingdoms."

Consider it traits with me...

·   it had a head
·   eleven horns
·   claws of brass
·   teeth of iron.

Daniel saw it arise in a stormy period out of the Great Sea; and Daniel perceived that this beast would continue in the earth until the "Ancient of Days

[Insight]

Allow you to consider the evidence below from Dan 7:

21 I (Daniel) beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

LH, the importance of the little word "until" is important as it connects the rising of this great empire and its existence in the earth until Christ returns styled "ancient of days"

Daniel's prophecy does not possess the finer details of the apocalypse clearly God withheld such knowledge for John at Patmos and the seven ekklesias and then those smaller communities throughout the following 2000 years.

Dan 7 is really a general outline which Yahweh of course was required to wait until the revealing of the "son of man" who was not yet made known in the earth.

If you read Rev 1:1 you will see that Yahweh gave the finer details outlinning the things which must shortly come to pass to Jesus Christ, in turn Jesus sent this via his messenger to John at Patmos.

I hope to in time outline in great detail the following symbols as delivered to John:

1. the Great Fiery-Red Dragon (Catholic Dragon)
2. the Beast of the Sea
3. the Name of Blasphemy
4. the Beast of the Earth
5. the Image of the Beast
6. The Woman- riding a Scarlet-Beast.

Every element of the above symbols are seen in the forth and final beast of Daniel 7

In previous discussion in the Catholic forum we have spoken about the terrible aspects of the beasts actions amidst the nations it has at times devoured whether doctrinally or militarily.

God Willing our discussion will be fruitfull.

Insight

[LightHammer]

I am not exactly sure what you want from me.

Nothing at present.

I wanted to lay a foundation showing forth the common message/symbols from both the books of Daniel and Revelation.

You may like to comment on the below should you agree/disagree

Both books record the dramatic crises, the rise and fall of nations symbolised as beasts, the emphasis on the time of the end, appear in both books.

After this you may like to guide me in regards to which beast you wish to discuss.

We have four (4) in Daniel and four (4) in Revelation though the beasts of Revelation are in fact the same beast in different phases of its developement?

Insight

Daniel is pretty much agreed upon among all eschatological schools of thought. Let's deal with Revelation. The Beasts of the Sea and Land.

So you agree the 4th terrible beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire (Iron)? This would reduce my work load in Revelation if this was so...

Of course I agree the 4th Beast was the Roman Empire. Nothing new about that one. The Catholic Church was believed that before there any Protestants.

I can see this is going to be interesting.

[LightHammer]

Derived from Reply #7

Consider it traits with me...

·   it had a head
·   eleven horns
·   claws of brass
·   teeth of iron.

I wanted to bring this to your attention. The 4th Beast of Daniel 7 at no time had 11 horns. He originally had 10 but then a small one sprouted destroying 3 horns to claim its place on the Beast's head.

10-3= 7

7+1=8

St. Daniel decribes of the small horn's ascension and the 3 horns eradication occuring simultaneously. In conclusion the Beast never had 11 horns at a single time.

Daniel saw it arise in a stormy period out of the Great Sea; and Daniel perceived that this beast would continue in the earth until the "Ancient of Days

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

 

[Insight]

Derived from Reply #7

Consider it traits with me...

·   it had a head
·   eleven horns
·   claws of brass
·   teeth of iron.

I wanted to bring this to your attention. The 4th Beast of Daniel 7 at no time had 11 horns. He originally had 10 but then a small one sprouted destroying 3 horns to claim its place on the Beast's head.

10-3= 7

7+1=8

LH

If I can bring to your attention the inspired record of the eleven horns, maybe your understanding can be adjusted "a little

[Insight]

Derived from Reply #7

Consider it traits with me...

·   it had a head
·   eleven horns
·   claws of brass
·   teeth of iron.

I wanted to bring this to your attention. The 4th Beast of Daniel 7 at no time had 11 horns. He originally had 10 but then a small one sprouted destroying 3 horns to claim its place on the Beast's head.

10-3= 7

7+1=8

St. Daniel decribes of the small horn's ascension and the 3 horns eradication occuring simultaneously. In conclusion the Beast never had 11 horns at a single time.

Daniel saw it arise in a stormy period out of the Great Sea; and Daniel perceived that this beast would continue in the earth until the "Ancient of Days

[LightHammer]

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

I'm using the very same verse you are. In it the process is clearly illustrated. The 4th Beast at no time ever had 11 horns. Three of its ten horns were uprooted to make room for the little one.

I don't know how fundamental eleven horns is to your theory but the 4th beast never had eleven horns.

[Insight]

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

I'm using the very same verse you are. In it the process is clearly illustrated. The 4th Beast at no time ever had 11 horns. Three of its ten horns were uprooted to make room for the little one.

I don't know how fundamental eleven horns is to your theory but the 4th beast never had eleven horns.

In the process of the little horn coming through one is hard pushed to argue that eleven horns are not present on/in the beast. If you believe the three horns were uprooted before the little horn came up?...well let's just agree the beast possessed eleven horns and at the end of the process there were eight.

This understanding is not pivotal in the correct interpretation of the Revelation Beast, however understanding the fulfilment of the little horn would change your opinion very quickly.

[Insight]

Derived from Reply #7

Consider it traits with me...

·   it had a head
·   eleven horns
·   claws of brass
·   teeth of iron.

I wanted to bring this to your attention. The 4th Beast of Daniel 7 at no time had 11 horns. He originally had 10 but then a small one sprouted destroying 3 horns to claim its place on the Beast's head.

10-3= 7

7+1=8

St. Daniel decribes of the small horn's ascension and the 3 horns eradication occuring simultaneously. In conclusion the Beast never had 11 horns at a single time.

Daniel saw it arise in a stormy period out of the Great Sea; and Daniel perceived that this beast would continue in the earth until the "Ancient of Days

[LightHammer]

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

I'm using the very same verse you are. In it the process is clearly illustrated. The 4th Beast at no time ever had 11 horns. Three of its ten horns were uprooted to make room for the little one.

I don't know how fundamental eleven horns is to your theory but the 4th beast never had eleven horns.

In the process of the little horn coming through one is hard pushed to argue that eleven horns are not present on/in the beast. If you believe the three horns were uprooted before the little horn came up?...well let's just agree the beast possessed eleven horns and at the end of the process there were eight.

This understanding is not pivotal in the correct interpretation of the Revelation Beast, however understanding the fulfilment of the little horn would change your opinion very quickly.

No the 4th Beast never possessed 11 horns period. Its simple English so it shouldn't be that hard to accept.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before  which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

You're not illiterate so I know you know that there were never 11 horns at one time. I don't even its a big deal but it aggravates me when Sacred Scripture is crytsal clear and people still hold to their own things. It makes it hard for me to take people like that seriously.

The Beast had ten horns then three were uprooted to make way for the little horn. St. Daniel is abundantly clear on that.

You can act like the Beast had eleven horns if you want but he never did and this conversation will only keep referring back to this verse each and everytime you try and insuate that the Beast had eleven horns.

Quote

If you believe the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire what do you believe the 'Little Horn" to be?

I'll deal with this one when I get back.

[Insight]

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

I'm using the very same verse you are. In it the process is clearly illustrated. The 4th Beast at no time ever had 11 horns. Three of its ten horns were uprooted to make room for the little one.

I don't know how fundamental eleven horns is to your theory but the 4th beast never had eleven horns.

In the process of the little horn coming through one is hard pushed to argue that eleven horns are not present on/in the beast. If you believe the three horns were uprooted before the little horn came up?...well let's just agree the beast possessed eleven horns and at the end of the process there were eight.

This understanding is not pivotal in the correct interpretation of the Revelation Beast, however understanding the fulfilment of the little horn would change your opinion very quickly.

No the 4th Beast never possessed 11 horns period. Its simple English so it shouldn't be that hard to accept.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before  which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

You're not illiterate so I know you know that there were never 11 horns at one time. I don't even its a big deal but it aggravates me when Sacred Scripture is crytsal clear and people still hold to their own things. It makes it hard for me to take people like that seriously.

The Beast had ten horns then three were uprooted to make way for the little horn. St. Daniel is abundantly clear on that.

You can act like the Beast had eleven horns if you want but he never did and this conversation will only keep referring back to this verse each and everytime you try and insuate that the Beast had eleven horns.

Quote

If you believe the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire what do you believe the 'Little Horn" to be?

I'll deal with this one when I get back.

So what in fact you are teaching is the three horns were removed before the little arrogant horn came up? And you would adamantly state this is according to the Scripture.

Any right minded student will see that a process of coming up and displacing meant that for a period of time the beast held 11 horns

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one,

Very simple...I even gave you a picture to illustrate.



Process

1. First 10 horns
2  Then little horn came up
3. Eventually three horns were uprooted

I am speaking to point 2 where you are going staight to point 3.

Insight

[LightHammer]

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

I'm using the very same verse you are. In it the process is clearly illustrated. The 4th Beast at no time ever had 11 horns. Three of its ten horns were uprooted to make room for the little one.

I don't know how fundamental eleven horns is to your theory but the 4th beast never had eleven horns.

In the process of the little horn coming through one is hard pushed to argue that eleven horns are not present on/in the beast. If you believe the three horns were uprooted before the little horn came up?...well let's just agree the beast possessed eleven horns and at the end of the process there were eight.

This understanding is not pivotal in the correct interpretation of the Revelation Beast, however understanding the fulfilment of the little horn would change your opinion very quickly.

No the 4th Beast never possessed 11 horns period. Its simple English so it shouldn't be that hard to accept.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before  which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

You're not illiterate so I know you know that there were never 11 horns at one time. I don't even its a big deal but it aggravates me when Sacred Scripture is crytsal clear and people still hold to their own things. It makes it hard for me to take people like that seriously.

The Beast had ten horns then three were uprooted to make way for the little horn. St. Daniel is abundantly clear on that.

You can act like the Beast had eleven horns if you want but he never did and this conversation will only keep referring back to this verse each and everytime you try and insuate that the Beast had eleven horns.

Quote

If you believe the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire what do you believe the 'Little Horn" to be?

I'll deal with this one when I get back.

So what in fact you are teaching is the three horns were removed before the little arrogant horn came up? And you would adamantly state this is according to the Scripture.

Any right minded student will see that a process of coming up and displacing meant that for a period of time the beast held 11 horns

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one,

Very simple...I even gave you a picture to illustrate.



Process

1. First 10 horns
2  Then little horn came up
3. Eventually three horns were uprooted

I am speaking to point 2 where you are going staight to point 3.

Insight

How about you read the entire verse and try again. You are trying to suggest that the three horns were uprooted after the Little Horn sprouted but the Bible is clear that they were uprooted before it sprouted.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

There is no "eventually the three horns were uprooted after the Little Horn sprouted". The three horns were gone before the Little Horn was there.

I'm going to pretend that English is a second language for you and give you a more simple translation.

Daniel 7:8 I beheld the horns, and lo! another little horn came forth (out) of the midst of those, and three of the first horns were drawn out from the face thereof (and three of the first horns were drawn out to make room for it); and lo! eyes as (the) eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

[Insight]

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

I'm using the very same verse you are. In it the process is clearly illustrated. The 4th Beast at no time ever had 11 horns. Three of its ten horns were uprooted to make room for the little one.

I don't know how fundamental eleven horns is to your theory but the 4th beast never had eleven horns.

In the process of the little horn coming through one is hard pushed to argue that eleven horns are not present on/in the beast. If you believe the three horns were uprooted before the little horn came up?...well let's just agree the beast possessed eleven horns and at the end of the process there were eight.

This understanding is not pivotal in the correct interpretation of the Revelation Beast, however understanding the fulfilment of the little horn would change your opinion very quickly.

No the 4th Beast never possessed 11 horns period. Its simple English so it shouldn't be that hard to accept.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before  which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

You're not illiterate so I know you know that there were never 11 horns at one time. I don't even its a big deal but it aggravates me when Sacred Scripture is crytsal clear and people still hold to their own things. It makes it hard for me to take people like that seriously.

The Beast had ten horns then three were uprooted to make way for the little horn. St. Daniel is abundantly clear on that.

You can act like the Beast had eleven horns if you want but he never did and this conversation will only keep referring back to this verse each and everytime you try and insuate that the Beast had eleven horns.

Quote

If you believe the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire what do you believe the 'Little Horn" to be?

I'll deal with this one when I get back.

So what in fact you are teaching is the three horns were removed before the little arrogant horn came up? And you would adamantly state this is according to the Scripture.

Any right minded student will see that a process of coming up and displacing meant that for a period of time the beast held 11 horns

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one,

Very simple...I even gave you a picture to illustrate.



Process

1. First 10 horns
2  Then little horn came up
3. Eventually three horns were uprooted

I am speaking to point 2 where you are going straight to point 3.

Insight

How about you read the entire verse and try again. You are trying to suggest that the three horns were uprooted after the Little Horn sprouted but the Bible is clear that they were uprooted before it sprouted.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

There is no "eventually the three horns were uprooted after the Little Horn sprouted". The three horns were gone before the Little Horn was there.

I'm going to pretend that English is a second language for you and give you a more simple translation.

Daniel 7:8 I beheld the horns, and lo! another little horn came forth (out) of the midst of those, and three of the first horns were drawn out from the face thereof (and three of the first horns were drawn out to make room for it); and lo! eyes as (the) eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

O I see your error...

 
New International Version (©1984)
"While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

Or in the presence of it...and not as you imply "prior" to it coming up.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
While I was thinking about the horns, another horn, a little horn, came up among them. It uprooted three of the other horns. This horn had eyes like human eyes and a mouth that spoke impressive things.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

American King James Version
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

American Standard Version
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I considered the horns, and behold another little horn sprung out of the midst of them: and three of the first horns were plucked up at the presence thereof: and behold eyes like the eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

Darby Bible Translation
I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another, a little horn, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots; and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

English Revised Version
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

World English Bible
I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Young's Literal Translation
I was considering about the horns, and lo, another horn, a little one, hath come up between them, and three of the first horns have been eradicated from before it, and lo, eyes as the eyes of man are in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

If you ponder the context and structure of the original text you will see that the idea of being plucked up in the "presence of" is far more appropriate than them being removed before the little horn even came up!

I am not English scholar, unlike yourself, but I am sure you will find this so.

Insight

[Insight]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6925&t=KJV

And the Hebrew agrees.

i.e. before, in front of...

The three were uprooted in front of the little horn...

Hence why I am waiting for your understanding of the little horn to see if your understanding speaks to this verse correctly.

We shall see.

Insight

[LightHammer]

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

I'm using the very same verse you are. In it the process is clearly illustrated. The 4th Beast at no time ever had 11 horns. Three of its ten horns were uprooted to make room for the little one.

I don't know how fundamental eleven horns is to your theory but the 4th beast never had eleven horns.

In the process of the little horn coming through one is hard pushed to argue that eleven horns are not present on/in the beast. If you believe the three horns were uprooted before the little horn came up?...well let's just agree the beast possessed eleven horns and at the end of the process there were eight.

This understanding is not pivotal in the correct interpretation of the Revelation Beast, however understanding the fulfilment of the little horn would change your opinion very quickly.

No the 4th Beast never possessed 11 horns period. Its simple English so it shouldn't be that hard to accept.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before  which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

You're not illiterate so I know you know that there were never 11 horns at one time. I don't even its a big deal but it aggravates me when Sacred Scripture is crytsal clear and people still hold to their own things. It makes it hard for me to take people like that seriously.

The Beast had ten horns then three were uprooted to make way for the little horn. St. Daniel is abundantly clear on that.

You can act like the Beast had eleven horns if you want but he never did and this conversation will only keep referring back to this verse each and everytime you try and insuate that the Beast had eleven horns.

Quote

If you believe the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire what do you believe the 'Little Horn" to be?

I'll deal with this one when I get back.

So what in fact you are teaching is the three horns were removed before the little arrogant horn came up? And you would adamantly state this is according to the Scripture.

Any right minded student will see that a process of coming up and displacing meant that for a period of time the beast held 11 horns

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one,

Very simple...I even gave you a picture to illustrate.



Process

1. First 10 horns
2  Then little horn came up
3. Eventually three horns were uprooted

I am speaking to point 2 where you are going straight to point 3.

Insight

How about you read the entire verse and try again. You are trying to suggest that the three horns were uprooted after the Little Horn sprouted but the Bible is clear that they were uprooted before it sprouted.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

There is no "eventually the three horns were uprooted after the Little Horn sprouted". The three horns were gone before the Little Horn was there.

I'm going to pretend that English is a second language for you and give you a more simple translation.

Daniel 7:8 I beheld the horns, and lo! another little horn came forth (out) of the midst of those, and three of the first horns were drawn out from the face thereof (and three of the first horns were drawn out to make room for it); and lo! eyes as (the) eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

O I see your error...

 
New International Version (©1984)
"While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

Or in the presence of it...and not as you imply "prior" to it coming up.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
While I was thinking about the horns, another horn, a little horn, came up among them. It uprooted three of the other horns. This horn had eyes like human eyes and a mouth that spoke impressive things.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

American King James Version
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

American Standard Version
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I considered the horns, and behold another little horn sprung out of the midst of them: and three of the first horns were plucked up at the presence thereof: and behold eyes like the eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

Darby Bible Translation
I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another, a little horn, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots; and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

English Revised Version
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

World English Bible
I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Young's Literal Translation
I was considering about the horns, and lo, another horn, a little one, hath come up between them, and three of the first horns have been eradicated from before it, and lo, eyes as the eyes of man are in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

If you ponder the context and structure of the original text you will see that the idea of being plucked up in the "presence of" is far more appropriate than them being removed before the little horn even came up!

I am not English scholar, unlike yourself, but I am sure you will find this so.

Insight

Lol. Ok Insight let's pretend like the English language is that difficult. If you read any of these verses it clearly states that the ascendancy of the little horn uprooted three before it but let's do this.

[Insight]

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

I'm using the very same verse you are. In it the process is clearly illustrated. The 4th Beast at no time ever had 11 horns. Three of its ten horns were uprooted to make room for the little one.

I don't know how fundamental eleven horns is to your theory but the 4th beast never had eleven horns.

In the process of the little horn coming through one is hard pushed to argue that eleven horns are not present on/in the beast. If you believe the three horns were uprooted before the little horn came up?...well let's just agree the beast possessed eleven horns and at the end of the process there were eight.

This understanding is not pivotal in the correct interpretation of the Revelation Beast, however understanding the fulfilment of the little horn would change your opinion very quickly.

No the 4th Beast never possessed 11 horns period. Its simple English so it shouldn't be that hard to accept.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before  which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

You're not illiterate so I know you know that there were never 11 horns at one time. I don't even its a big deal but it aggravates me when Sacred Scripture is crytsal clear and people still hold to their own things. It makes it hard for me to take people like that seriously.

The Beast had ten horns then three were uprooted to make way for the little horn. St. Daniel is abundantly clear on that.

You can act like the Beast had eleven horns if you want but he never did and this conversation will only keep referring back to this verse each and everytime you try and insuate that the Beast had eleven horns.

Quote

If you believe the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire what do you believe the 'Little Horn" to be?

I'll deal with this one when I get back.

So what in fact you are teaching is the three horns were removed before the little arrogant horn came up? And you would adamantly state this is according to the Scripture.

Any right minded student will see that a process of coming up and displacing meant that for a period of time the beast held 11 horns

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one,

Very simple...I even gave you a picture to illustrate.



Process

1. First 10 horns
2  Then little horn came up
3. Eventually three horns were uprooted

I am speaking to point 2 where you are going straight to point 3.

Insight

How about you read the entire verse and try again. You are trying to suggest that the three horns were uprooted after the Little Horn sprouted but the Bible is clear that they were uprooted before it sprouted.

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. (Daniel 7:8)

There is no "eventually the three horns were uprooted after the Little Horn sprouted". The three horns were gone before the Little Horn was there.

I'm going to pretend that English is a second language for you and give you a more simple translation.

Daniel 7:8 I beheld the horns, and lo! another little horn came forth (out) of the midst of those, and three of the first horns were drawn out from the face thereof (and three of the first horns were drawn out to make room for it); and lo! eyes as (the) eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

O I see your error...

 
New International Version (©1984)
"While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

Or in the presence of it...and not as you imply "prior" to it coming up.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
While I was thinking about the horns, another horn, a little horn, came up among them. It uprooted three of the other horns. This horn had eyes like human eyes and a mouth that spoke impressive things.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

American King James Version
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

American Standard Version
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I considered the horns, and behold another little horn sprung out of the midst of them: and three of the first horns were plucked up at the presence thereof: and behold eyes like the eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

Darby Bible Translation
I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another, a little horn, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots; and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

English Revised Version
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

World English Bible
I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Young's Literal Translation
I was considering about the horns, and lo, another horn, a little one, hath come up between them, and three of the first horns have been eradicated from before it, and lo, eyes as the eyes of man are in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.

If you ponder the context and structure of the original text you will see that the idea of being plucked up in the "presence of" is far more appropriate than them being removed before the little horn even came up!

I am not English scholar, unlike yourself, but I am sure you will find this so.

Insight

Lol. Ok Insight let's pretend like the English language is that difficult. If you read any of these verses it clearly states that the ascendancy of the little horn uprooted three before it but let's do this.

No need to laugh LH its an easy mistake to make.

You either stood before me or you walked through the door before me.  

Dan 7:8 no doubt reads "in the presence" of the little horn.

When you consider the Scriptures at this level you will no doubt find our perceptions are often challenge by the reality of what is true.  You ought not to be offended by this as it happens to me often.

You may see this as a small matter but when we come to define the little horn you will not be disappointed.

Insight

[Insight]

If you believe the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire what do you believe the 'Little Horn" to be?  

I'll deal with this one when I get back.

A friendly reminder

[LightHammer]

You asked for my theory regarding Little Horn. As you're aware there are two little horns of St. Daniel's prophecy. The little horn of chapter 7 and the little horn of chapter 8. They are completely independent from one another, with each sprouting on its own respective beast.

I personal believe that the little horn of St. Daniel 7 was Herod the Great and the little horn of chapter 8 was Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire.

[Insight]

Thank you for being open and to the point.

You asked for my theory regarding Little Horn. As you're aware there are two little horns of St. Daniel's prophecy. The little horn of chapter 7 and the little horn of chapter 8. They are completely independent from one another, with each sprouting on its own respective beast.

I personal believe that the little horn of St. Daniel 7 was Herod the Great and the little horn of chapter 8 was Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire.

I have read this interpretation before but it fails to grasp the little horns unique position and qualities. It also fails to address how this little arrogant horn possessed "eyes and a mouth" unlike any of the other horns.

At first, this eleventh horn was small in comparison with its fellows; but it grew to be dominant. Where the other horns and the beast itself were clearly military in nature this little horn was clearly ecclesiastical in it workings.

As you know Dan 2 and the image there mentioned makes clear reference to the toes (10) which have long been understood to be the divided Roman Empire (or EU today). We find the corresponding symbol in Dan 7 are the horns which link the fourth beast with the toes of the Image seen by Nebuchadnezzar, representative of the divided state of the Roman Empire.

Now to ascribe the little horn which became so great it displaced 3 of the other horns as Herod the Great cannot fit the divine language.

At first, this eleventh horn was small in comparison with its fellows; but it grew to be dominant.  

Where the other horns and the beast itself were clearly secular and military in nature, however this little horn was clearly ecclesiastical in its disposition.

This little horn was totally unique compared to anything ever witnessed within the Roman Fourth Beast.

Little Horn's Eyes:  

We are looking for an all looking See whose eyes penetrate the whole earth.  Because this horn is ecclesiastical we are also seeking eyes that extend throughout the whole earth and able to report back to Roman headquarters.

Actually Zechariah predicted the coming destruction of this power when he wrote "Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! The sword shall be upon his arm (secular authority) and upon his right eye (ecclesiastical supervision); his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened (Zech. 11:17).

I could provide many more references in relation to the all seeing power of this arrogant little horn but I believe digesting these matters slowly is appropriate.

Little Horn's Mouth:

Now this little horn that became arrogant and spoke of  "great things" these blasphemies were against
Yahweh.  

And he (Little Horn) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (Daniel 7:25)

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:5-8)

Of course any sensible Bible Student will not see either Herod the Great or Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire to fit this description for they never had this type of influence "him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations"

You see LM the "voice" from this Little Arrogant Horn is proclaimed also throughout the whole world – I believe protestants have called them "Papal bulls

[LightHammer]

I have read this interpretation before but it fails to grasp the little horns unique position and qualities. It also fails to address how this little arrogant horn possessed "eyes and a mouth" unlike any of the other horns.

Assuming we're talking about chapter 7 and Herod the Great it actually fits pretty well.

The attribution of eyes and a mouth to the little horn is the prophetic means of making the little horn seem like a man or rather like a "son of man". The little horns of Daniel 7 and 8 are similar in that a male ruler comes to impose his dominance as a rival king of the Jewish population.

Notice the placement of the chapter 7 little horn. That is not the Roman Empire. It is the Roman Republic. This Beast is still before the coming of Christ.

Herod the Great got his power just before the brith of Christ by convincing Mark Antony, Augustus and Lepidus to recognize him as the King of the Jews. (Note the "rival king" illegitmately taking the place of the Davidic king and claiming a title that only the Messiah was coming to fulfill). After the Roman authority declared Herod the Great king, he and Mark Antony inavded Jerusalem desposed of the King Antigonus II Mattathias and set up the new order.

When you consider that the little horn of seven is of the Roman Republic Beast and not the Roamn Imperial Beast of Revelation it makes sense that its Herod the Great.

At first, this eleventh horn was small in comparison with its fellows; but it grew to be dominant. Where the other horns and the beast itself were clearly military in nature this little horn was clearly ecclesiastical in it workings.

Not at all. It seems you are using Scripture to support your theory rather using Scripture to derive your theory from.

This Beast is not the same Beast of Revelation or rather not of the same time period. The Beast of Daniel 7 dies with 8 horns. (Daniel 7:11)The little horn sprouts eradicating three horns as it does. We can also use your theory and say it sprouts, waxes strong then destroys three horns. Either way the Beast of Daniel 7 is destoryed with 8 horns.

The Beast of Revelation is destroyed with ten horns and a healed wound. (Revelation 19:20)These are not the same time period and prophecy divides time by BC and AD or Post-Resurrection.

For further proof that these are different time periods look at the separate judgments of each Beast. The 4th Beast of Daniel 7 is destoryed but the three other Beasts live on without authority or dominion. (Daniel 7:11-12) The Beast of Revelation is destoryed with his partner the False Prophet Beast and his army was utterly destroyed and given to the birds for food. (Revelation 19:20)

Daniel 7 is BC prrophecy and Revelation is post Ascension Prophecy.

Seeing how Daniel 7 is BC prophecy, an "ecclesiatical" attribution would be completely false and inappropriate.

As you know Dan 2 and the image there mentioned makes clear reference to the toes (10) which have long been understood to be the divided Roman Empire (or EU today). We find the corresponding symbol in Dan 7 are the horns which link the fourth beast with the toes of the Image seen by Nebuchadnezzar, representative of the divided state of the Roman Empire.

Understood without valid stances. The ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar do not refer to modern Europe but to the 4th Beast of Daniel. The Roman Republic. The four metals that describe the four kings are the same four kings described in Daniel 7's four beasts. The ten toes refer to the Roman Republic BC or prior to the resurrection.

Now to ascribe the little horn which became so great it displaced 3 of the other horns as Herod the Great cannot fit the divine language.

Not at all. The displacement refers to authority. The little horn gained his authroity in position from the three either by taking it or them submitting it to him. There are several ways Herod the Great fits this bill. Herod got his power by the allotment of an allliance with the Second Triumvate of Rome i.e. Octavian, Mark Antony and Lepidus. (Three kings submitting rule to Herod)

The greatness mentioned is that Herod blashpemed Heaven and the Ancient of Days ruling in His glory WAS Herod the Great claiming to be the ruler of the Jews ordained by the power of Rome the head of the enslaving 4th Beast. Greatness is not in conquest but in blasphemy.

Even still before Herod rose to the throne he was just one tetrarch in a community of four rulers. After he ruled he the other three lost their power.

Herod the Great fits multiple ways.

We are looking for an all looking See whose eyes penetrate the whole earth.  Because this horn is ecclesiastical we are also seeking eyes that extend throughout the whole earth and able to report back to Roman headquarters.

Actually Zechariah predicted the coming destruction of this power when he wrote "Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! The sword shall be upon his arm (secular authority) and upon his right eye (ecclesiastical supervision); his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened (Zech. 11:17).

I could provide many more references in relation to the all seeing power of this arrogant little horn but I believe digesting these matters slowly is appropriate.

Little Horn's Mouth:

Now this little horn that became arrogant and spoke of  "great things" these blasphemies were against
Yahweh.  

And he (Little Horn) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (Daniel 7:25)

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:5-8)

Of course any sensible Bible Student will not see either Herod the Great or Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire to fit this description for they never had this type of influence "him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations"

Here you are crossbreeding Beasts from two completely different timeperiods who live two completely different lives. I believe I have adequately shown how the Beast of Daniel 7 is of a different time and incarnation than the Beast of Revelation so I'll move on.

You see LM the "voice" from this Little Arrogant Horn is proclaimed also throughout the whole world – I believe protestants have called them "Papal bulls

[Insight]

Assuming we're talking about chapter 7 and Herod the Great it actually fits pretty well.

Correct.

The attribution of eyes and a mouth to the little horn is the prophetic means of making the little horn seem like a man or rather like a "son of man". The little horns of Daniel 7 and 8 are similar in that a male ruler comes to impose his dominance as a rival king of the Jewish population.

I need you to support your thoughts with Scripture otherwise I am left guessing as to which passage in Daniel 7 & 8 you are referring too.

Notice the placement of the chapter 7 little horn. That is not the Roman Empire. It is the Roman Republic. This Beast is still before the coming of Christ.

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

Now do you honestly believe Herod fits the above symbol of the Little Horn?

Herod to mean a single man born 73 /74 BCE, died 4 BCE to represent a ecclesiastical system which will persecute the mortal saints throughout "a time". It is clear you have not considered this chapter in sufficient detail.

"And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" (also see verse 27)

In this context the term "time" is specific: it signifies "an appointed time"; the time referred to by Peter, who warned that though it may appear on the surface that Yahweh is "slack" concerning His promises, that is not so; the Lord will come at the appointed time, though many may be taken off guard when it arrives (2 Pet. 3:8-15). Subsequently, Daniel was given time periods that mark off chronologically the epochs of the Time of the End.

I see how your theory cannot explain how the little horn power that rose amidst the 10 horns would be present on this fourth beast when the immortalised saints after resurrection and judgement would destroy this secular and ecclesiastical system.

This Beast is not the same Beast of Revelation or rather not of the same time period. The Beast of Daniel 7 dies with 8 horns. (Daniel 7:11)The little horn sprouts eradicating three horns as it does. We can also use your theory and say it sprouts, waxes strong then destroys three horns. Either way the Beast of Daniel 7 is destroyed with 8 horns.

What you fail to see is the fourth beast of Daniel is taken up in the Revelation and revealed as four successive beasts in its development until the end.  Each of the four beasts of Rev are phases in the fourth beast of Daniel though taken from the time of John at Patmos, till the end, whereas Daniel shows us the Roman Republic/Empire from its beginnings.

Daniel 7 is BC prophecy and Revelation is post Ascension Prophecy.

Sadly your theology is like scramble eggs and it's frustrating to speak to one who cannot grasp the most basic elements of prophecy.

The above comment has already proven you wrong in terms of the fourth beast and its horns taking us to Christ's second coming.

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

Now is this Christ first or second coming?

The possession of the Kingdom occurs upon his second advent and not his first. This and many other passages including Dan 2 and the feet of the image where Christ returns and smites the feet of the image is also witnessed here in Daniel 7.

However if you don't believe the rock smiting the feet on the image in Dan 2 is not the Christ and the iron (Roman) is not found in the feet then of course you will also discount the the fourth beast in Dan 7 is destroyed by Christ and the saints at the end time.

Seeing how Daniel 7 is BC prophecy, an "ecclesiastical" attribution would be completely false and inappropriate.

We come to a crossroad LH.

If you re-read Dan 2 & 7 and draw a conclusion it is only prophesying BC times you are seriously deluded.

Daniel 2

34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 7

26But the judgment shall sit, and they (Christ & Saints) shall take away his (Little Horn) dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.  27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

LH, you mock me and the Word by teaching such a BC only interpration of Dan 7.

I didnt bother answering the remainder of your post as the above wresting of scripture was differcult to stomach.

Insight

[LightHammer]

I expected a response like this.

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

Now do you honestly believe Herod fits the above symbol of the Little Horn?

Herod to mean a single man born 73 /74 BCE, died 4 BCE to represent a ecclesiastical system which will persecute the mortal saints throughout "a time". It is clear you have not considered this chapter in sufficient detail.

"And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" (also see verse 27)

In this context the term "time" is specific: it signifies "an appointed time"; the time referred to by Peter, who warned that though it may appear on the surface that Yahweh is "slack" concerning His promises, that is not so; the Lord will come at the appointed time, though many may be taken off guard when it arrives (2 Pet. 3:8-15). Subsequently, Daniel was given time periods that mark off chronologically the epochs of the Time of the End.

I see how your theory cannot explain how the little horn power that rose amidst the 10 horns would be present on this fourth beast when the immortalised saints after resurrection and judgement would destroy this secular and ecclesiastical system.

Yes I believe the Little Horn is Herod. If I didnt I wouldn't have said it.

You have not demonstrated in any way how this prophecy refers to any eccelsiastical structure. The horns represent regular kingdoms not religio-political false churches.

Again I believe you are shaping Sacred Scripture to fit your theory rather than vice versa.

"And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom" (also see verse 27)

In this context the term "time" is specific: it signifies "an appointed time"; the time referred to by Peter, who warned that though it may appear on the surface that Yahweh is "slack" concerning His promises, that is not so; the Lord will come at the appointed time, though many may be taken off guard when it arrives (2 Pet. 3:8-15). Subsequently, Daniel was given time periods that mark off chronologically the epochs of the Time of the End.

Here you simply trying to equate time to the end of the new era when the Old Testament scriptures foreshadow Christ's first coming(St. John5:39). This is BC stuff not post-ascension. I have adequately covered this already.

Furthermore the "time" when the saints will possess the kingdom is talking about the victory of Christ resurrection when this happens:

John 19:30when, therefore, Jesus received the vinegar, he said, `It hath been finished;' and having bowed the head, gave up the spirit.

Matthew 28:18And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;

   17 And the seventh angel shedded out his vial into the air, and a great voice went out of heaven from the throne, and said, It is done [saying, It is done].

   18 And lightnings were made, and voices, and thunders; and a great earth-moving was made, which manner never was, since men were on earth [since men were upon earth], such earth-moving so great.

What you fail to see is the fourth beast of Daniel is taken up in the Revelation and revealed as four successive beasts in its development until the end.  Each of the four beasts of Rev are phases in the fourth beast of Daniel though taken from the time of John at Patmos, till the end, whereas Daniel shows us the Roman Republic/Empire from its beginnings.

That's cute but no. The four Beasts of St. Daniel represent four empires that ruled over the Jews before the coming of Christ. The beast of Revelation represents a empire ruling over the Jews at the time of Christ's leaving.

These empires are agents of God's wrath on the Jews who had apostacised. This is all BC stuff. Let me show from God's own mouth.

Hosea 13:4 And I [am] Jehovah thy God from the land of Egypt, And a God besides Me thou dost not know, And a Saviour -- there is none save Me.

5I -- I have known thee in a wilderness, In a land of droughts.

6According to their feedings they are satiated, They have been satiated, And their heart is lifted up, Therefore they have forgotten Me,

7And I am to them as a lion, As a leopard by the way I look out.

8I do meet them as a bereaved bear, And I rend the enclosure of their heart.

9And I consume them there as a lioness, A beast of the field doth rend them.

Seem familiar? Well it should. Remember "agents of God's wrath against fallen away Jews."

This is all BC stuff. I think you're mispplication of St. Daniel goes hand in hand with your misunderstanding of Revelation.

Considering that Revelation means "unveiling" and 65% of it is derived from the Old Testament, for students of the Bible and not modern eschatology it is a well known realization that Revelation is not just looking at the future but at past, present and future through eternity.

You need to catch up.

[Insight]

Yes I believe the Little Horn is Herod. If I didnt I wouldn't have said it.

You appeared hesitant at first.

You have not demonstrated in any way how this prophecy refers to any ecclesiastical structure. The horns represent regular kingdoms not religio-political false churches.

This horn possesses eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things.

Herod was no different to any other client king nor does he in any respect appear to be different than the kings of the earth...he certainly does not fit the severity of one who persecutes the true saints for generations.

The eyes and mouth are Babylonian language as proven by my previous post which went unanswered.

This horn has eyes and mouth which are exercised particularly against the saints of the Most High.

Now what was established out of the Roman Empire which had all seeing eyes and an outspoken mouth – and speaking what? That all nations, peoples and kindred's could hear?

"Even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things"

Precisely what "very great things

[Insight]

Let me help you LH while you are reading and considering your response.

Read Dan. 2:44 then read Dan 7:27

"Whose kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom"

The adjective "everlasting" is rendered from the Chaldean alam the equivalent of the Hebrew olam, and denotes a "hidden period". This is the Millennium which has beginning and end. At its conclusion it will be delivered up unto the Father that "God may be all and in all" (1 Cor. 15:24-28).

Please dont insult the Scriptures by implying Dan 7 only contains BC prophecy.

You are doing yourself great harm.

Insight

[Insight]

"And all dominions shall serve and obey him"

Now you say this applies to Christs ascension, whereby all reading this would agree cannot apply - impossible!

When the Lord ascended into heaven, he was given power over the nations (v.14)

14 He (Christ) was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. cp with Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3 :22; though, as yet, they do not "serve and obey him". The time is coming, however, when they will do so, for "the peoples shall be gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve Yahweh" (Ps. 102:22).

Those that refuse to do so will be "cut off" (Isa. 60:12).

Now understanding this to be true you must not restrict a view of Dan 7 as BC but broaden your foresight beyond his ascension to when the little horn would develope its power throughout the whole earth.

Insight

[LightHammer]

Ignoring Hosea I see. Convenient.

This horn possesses eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things.

Herod was no different to any other client king nor does he in any respect appear to be different than the kings of the earth...he certainly does not fit the severity of one who persecutes the true saints for generations.

The eyes and mouth are Babylonian language as proven by my previous post which went unanswered.

This horn has eyes and mouth which are exercised particularly against the saints of the Most High.

Now what was established out of the Roman Empire which had all seeing eyes and an outspoken mouth – and speaking what? That all nations, peoples and kindred's could hear?

"Even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things"

Precisely what "very great things

[LightHammer]

Let me help you LH while you are reading and considering your response.

Read Dan. 2:44 then read Dan 7:27

"Whose kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom"

The adjective "everlasting" is rendered from the Chaldean alam the equivalent of the Hebrew olam, and denotes a "hidden period". This is the Millennium which has beginning and end. At its conclusion it will be delivered up unto the Father that "God may be all and in all" (1 Cor. 15:24-28).

Please dont insult the Scriptures by implying Dan 7 only contains BC prophecy.

You are doing yourself great harm.

Insight

Considering my response? Not really my old man called me to help him at the warehouse before the trucks roll so I had to go.

I checked Thayers lexicon and saw no reference of a hidden anything with everlasting in the Koine Greek or Hebrew/Aramaic but feel free to substantiate.