Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism

[beam]

Any lurkers seeking truth, would dig deep enough to see that I have answered your questions many times over on these boards. As already stated, you have brought nothing to to them, save perhaps a personal tweak or two.

Hi Amo,  it is not true that you have answered my questions many times.  I don't believe I ever asked you a question like the following:  "Hi Amo, First of all, you need to be able to verify that SDAs around the World are actually worshipping on the Sabbath given at Sinai.   The same goes for those you call Sunday keepers.  There is no such thing as a Sunday keeper.  Where in scripture is there any rules for keeping Sunday?  Likewise where in the New Covenant are there any rules for keeping the Sabbath which you cannot prove is the actual day set aside for only Israel?"

Another question that SDAs seem to be ignoring is the Samoa Island issue.  If serving God on the Sabbath is so very important that our eternal life depends on worshipping on Saturday just as SDAs do then it would seem like you wouldn't be avoiding answering my or anyone else's questions.  When you stand before the judge and He asks you why you didn't answer the questions seekers were asking what will be your answer?

[Amo]

Hi Amo,  it is not true that you have answered my questions many times.  I don't believe I ever asked you a question like the following:  "Hi Amo, First of all, you need to be able to verify that SDAs around the World are actually worshipping on the Sabbath given at Sinai.   The same goes for those you call Sunday keepers.  There is no such thing as a Sunday keeper.  Where in scripture is there any rules for keeping Sunday?  Likewise where in the New Covenant are there any rules for keeping the Sabbath which you cannot prove is the actual day set aside for only Israel?"

Another question that SDAs seem to be ignoring is the Samoa Island issue.  If serving God on the Sabbath is so very important that our eternal life depends on worshipping on Saturday just as SDAs do then it would seem like you wouldn't be avoiding answering my or anyone else's questions.  When you stand before the judge and He asks you why you didn't answer the questions seekers were asking what will be your answer?

I have addressed these issues before from others with perhaps their personal tweaks which may differ from yours. If or when time allows, I will search for them and give u the links.

[beam]

I have addressed these issues before from others with perhaps their personal tweaks which may differ from yours. If or when time allows, I will search for them and give u the links.

Wouldn't it be much easier to just answer the questions?

[Amo]

Wouldn't it be much easier to just answer the questions?

No, going beyond simply I say you say, takes time. I don't always have time to do so. Do you? In fact there are may things I should be doing right now, that I am not. Which I should and will now attend to.

[Amo]

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2019/04/bring-back-the-blue-laws

BRING BACK THE BLUE LAWS
by Fr. Dominic Bouck
4 . 2 . 19

My home state of North Dakota just removed the respirator from a dying vestige of American culture.

On March 25, Governor Doug Burgum signed legislation repealing the state's blue laws. These laws, which made it illegal for retail stores to be open from midnight to noon on Sundays, used to be common throughout the country. But now, only some liquor stores are still subject to such constraints. Sunday rest for retail is a relic of the past.

Puritan theology certainly lurks behind these blue laws. But the principle that the state should ensure we have rest goes much deeper than narrow-minded prissiness. God's rest on the seventh day was of great comfort to the Israelite slaves in Egypt, who knew not rest. The Exodus story implies that the goal of our rest is worship, and the result of worship is rest: "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me"'" (Exodus 8:1). God fights to keep us free from all powers that seek to enslave us. Today's culture of slavery does not involve overlords cracking whips, but rather the irresistible urges of a consumer economy.

The 24-7 retail culture hurts our poor. Those who suffer most from the loss of blue laws are those conscripted into hourly wage jobs: the young, the impoverished, single mothers, and all those who struggle. Are they not allowed to attend Mass? Worship the God of freedom? Blue laws protected the weakest among us by making sure they could attend church on Sundays.

As those who work in retail know, it's not as simple as asking for different hours. During high school I had to work at the grocery store all evening Saturday and all day Sunday. The only time I could attend Mass was during my lunch hour, which meant arriving late to Mass and leaving it early (and no lunch). It was not an option both to keep the job and ask for different hours. One of my high school students recently told me that she had to work at a retail store on Thanksgiving and Black Friday. Her Thanksgiving dinner consisted of a Taco in a Bag (a Midwest recipe). The legal protection of Sunday rest helps the individual worker and preserves the family from the arms race that is our consumer society.

One North Dakota legislator opined that the Catholic Church precipitated the decline of Sunday worship and diluted our case for legal preservation by moving Sunday Mass to Saturday evening. There may be something to this. But what is certain is that our society has eliminated yet another protection for the working man. If proponents of capitalism wish to resist the rise of socialism in our country, a bit of advice: Don't overplay your hand. If the libertarian impulse goes unresisted, it will create a society like the nineteenth-century industrial capitalism that gave birth to its misbegotten child, Marxism. Removing God as chief protector of man's freedom leaves a void to be filled by faux-luminaries like Karl Marx and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Man's meaning is not the sum of his production and consumption. The sins of libertarian omission give rise to the sins of Marxist commission.

As Josef Pieper wrote in Leisure, the Basis of Culture: "Of course the world of work begins to become—threatens to become—our only world, to the exclusion of all else. The demands of the working world grow ever more total, grasping ever more completely the whole of human existence." We are made for more, yet society keeps ensuring us less. Christ said it best: "You cannot serve both God and mammon."

Fr. Dominic Bouck is a priest of the Diocese of Bismarck.
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[beam]

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2019/04/bring-back-the-blue-laws

Time?  yo see to have time to read and post junk like that,  Why can't you see that Ellen was off her rocker and it just ain't agonna happen the way she had it planned.   

[Amo]

Time?  yo see to have time to read and post junk like that,  Why can't you see that Ellen was off her rocker and it just ain't agonna happen the way she had it planned.

To the contrary, I have read enough of your broken record babbling to know that you are off your rocker. You are denying that something that has been happening throughout the last 16 to 1700 years, is happening right now all around the world, and most certainly will continue to happen in the future, is or will happen. You complain non stop on these boards about those who call all to keep God's seventh day Sabbath by faith in His word, while ignoring those all over the world forcing a man made sabbath upon all through civil legislation.

You are deceived. If what you claim to believe was really sincere, you would be going after those forcing all to observe a sabbath through human legislation, more than those calling all to observe what scripture refers to over and again as God's Sabbath by faith in His word alone. Instead, here you are non stop attacking the position of those who call all to faith but would never force their faith upon anyone. You are waisting your time trying to tell me that what has happened all throughout apostate "Christian" history, and is happening right now around the world, is never going to happen in the future.

[Amo]

https://www.ourladyoflourdes.info/sunday-rest/

The Sunday Rest

What kind of work can I perform on a Sunday without violating the Sunday rest?

     The Church commands all Catholics to keep Sunday holy—not merely to attend Mass. Thus, the first precept of the Church reads: to keep the Sundays and Holy Days of obligation holy, by hearing Mass and resting from servile work. In another place She says to abstain from "those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God... or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (Code of Canon Law no. 1247). By servile work we mean, in general, that sort of work which requires more of the body than the mind. Traditionally, the motive (e.g., to make money or recreation) is not the main factor in determining whether a particular work is servile or not. Thus, in order to maintain objectivity, not only the nature of the work must be taken into account but also the way it is done and how it is commonly regarded in the tradition of the Church.
     The following are generally considered to be servile works: plowing, sowing, harvesting, etc.; sewing, lawn mowing, cobbling, tailoring, printing, masonry work, etc.; all work in mines and factories, etc. In most places custom justifies knitting, crocheting, etc.
     On the other hand, it is permitted to go walking, riding, driving, rowing, taking journeys or pilgrimages, even though these may be fatiguing. Literary and artistic works such as studying, teaching, drawing or painting, playing musical instruments, writing, delicate sculpturing, embroidering, taking photographs are all lawful on Sundays and Holy Days, even if done for remuneration.
     Two to three hours of servile work would be considered grave matter for sin. The following causes, however, would excuse from the observance of the law forbidding servile work. In general, any work is allowed that left undone would cause grave loss to oneself or another (i.e., "the ox is in the ditch"); an employer requires one to work on Sunday; works of charity to those in need; or those of necessity, public or private, such as all indispensable housework (dishes, cooking, etc.); any work in case of fire, flood, or other disasters. Let us strive to keep the Lord's DAY holy rather than an hour on Sunday.

Can I go shopping on a Sunday?

     No, we should not shop on Sundays. In general, all commercial activity should stop on Sundays if for no other reason than to give all employees a chance to worship God and rest on the Lord's Day as He commands. Thus, commercial stores should be closed and they actually were for many years. Only in the last several decades have they been allowed to remain open for business on Sundays. An exception to the rule is often made to businesses that supply necessary items like food and gasoline. Thus, such businesses as convenience stores, restaurants, and gas stations are allowed to be open on Sundays. Let us strive not to defer to a festival what should have been taken care of during the week, thereby distracting our attention from things of God.

The Land Without a Sunday
By Maria Von Trapp & Family

OUR NEIGHBORS in Austria were a young couple, Baron and Baroness K.  They were getting increasingly curious about Russia and what life there was really like. One day they decided to take a six week trip all over Russia in their car. This was in the time when it was still possible to get a visa. Of course, at the border they were received by a special guide who watched their every step and did not leave them for a moment until he deposited them safely again at the border, but they still managed to get a good first-hand impression.  Upon their return they wrote a book about their experiences, and when it was finished, they invited their neighbors and friends to their home in order to read some of their work to them. I shall always recall how slowly and solemnly Baron K. read us the title: "The Land Without a Sunday."  Of all the things they had seen and observed, one experience had most deeply impressed them: that Russia had done away with Sunday. This had shocked them even more than what they saw of Siberian concentration camps or of the misery and hardship in cities and country. The absence of Sunday seemed to be the root of all the evil.
"Instead of a Sunday,' Baron K. told us, "the Russians have a day off. This happens at certain intervals which vary in different parts of the country. First they had a five‑day week, with the sixth day off, then they had a nine-day work period, with the tenth day off; then again it was an eight day week. What a difference between a day off and a Sunday! The people work in shifts. While one group enjoys its day off, the others continue to work in the factories or on the farms or in the stores, which are always open. As a result the over‑all impression throughout the country was that of incessant work, work, work. The atmosphere was one of constant rush and drive; finally, we confessed to each other that what we were missing most was not a well-cooked meal, or a hot bath, but a quiet, peaceful Sunday with church bells ringing and people resting after prayer."

Source: excerpts of "The Land Without a Sunday", 1955, Emanuel Books.

"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made" —Gen 2:2-3.

"Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it" —Exodus 20:8-11.

[Amo]

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/sunday_mass.htm

Sunday Mass and Holy Day Obligation

It is both a precept of the Church and Church law that Catholics must worship God on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation by participating in the Holy Mass. This follows from the fact that in the Mass it is Christ Himself who worships the Father, joining our worship to His. In no other way is it possible to adequately give thanks (eucharistia) to God for the blessings of creation, redemption and our sanctification than by uniting our offerings to that of Jesus Christ Himself. Following the example of the Old Covenant the Church does this weekly, on the day of the Lord's Resurrection.

Canon 1247
On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass; they are also to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body.

Canon 1248
   1. The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.
   2. If because of lack of a sacred minister or for other grave cause participation in the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible, it is specially recommended that the faithful take part in the liturgy of the word if it is celebrated in the parish church or in another sacred place according to the prescriptions of the diocesan bishop, or engage in prayer for an appropriate amount of time personally or in a family or, as occasion offers, in groups of families.

Since a "grave cause" is needed to excuse one from this obligation it would be a serious or mortal sin to willfully skip Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation, as the Church has always taught. Reasons such as the necessity to work to support one's family, child care, personal sickness or the care of the sick, necessary travel etc. would excuse a person on a particular occasions. Those who have continuing reason to be excused should consult their pastor.

If a priest is not available in an area and only a Liturgy of the Word or a Communion Service is offered the Mass obligation does not "transfer" to such services. As canon 1248 notes, participation is recommended for the spiritual value, especially if Communion is distributed.


The proper way to celebrate Sunday is spoken of at length in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
2182  Participation in the communal celebration of the Sunday Eucharist is a testimony of belonging and of being faithful to Christ and to his Church. The faithful give witness by this to their communion in faith and charity. Together they testify to God's holiness and their hope of salvation. They strengthen one another under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

2183  "If because of lack of a sacred minister or for other grave cause participation in the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible, it is specially recommended that the faithful take part in the Liturgy of the Word if it is celebrated in the parish church or in another sacred place according to the prescriptions of the diocesan bishop, or engage in prayer for an appropriate amount of time personally or in a family or, as occasion offers, in groups of families."

A day of grace and rest from work

2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done," human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body. Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.

The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days.

I wonder beam, do you spend any time addressing the over a billion members of the above denomination concerning their above doctrine and teachings?

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulwB7fotv0I

[Amo]

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-S/Sunday%20Laws%20in%20Europe.pdf

Sunday Laws in Europe
ROME IS URGENTLY TRYING TO GET THE EU
TO ENACT A EUROPE-WIDE NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW

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A lot of info about the movement on this link.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Amo: #498
I wonder beam, do you spend any time addressing the over a billion members of the above denomination concerning their above doctrine and teachings?

What about you, Amo, concerning their doctrine and teaching you, have posted above,

'It is both a precept of the Church and Church law that Catholics must worship God on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation by participating in the Holy Mass. This follows from the fact that in the Mass it is Christ Himself who worships the Father, joining our worship to His. In no other way is it possible to adequately give thanks (eucharistia) to God for the blessings of creation, redemption and our sanctification than by uniting our offerings to that of Jesus Christ Himself. Following the example of the Old Covenant the Church does this weekly, on the day of the Lord's Resurrection.'

Do you also call this, a 'fact'... 'Following the example of the Old Covenant the Church does this weekly, on the day of the Lord's Resurrection.'?!

[beam]

Amo asked: 

I wonder beam, do you spend any time addressing the over a billion members of the above denomination concerning their above doctrine and teachings?

Yes Amo, when I was a SDA the topic was ever before me.   The SDA church thrives on getting their flock in a frenzy.   They use the subject as a scare tactic and an enticement to delve into the "Spirit of Prophesy" books.  Of course, SDAs think they have the only true message of the book of Revelation and they flaunt it to every unsuspecting person that allows them to have say. 

Individual Catholics don't pay much attention to the hierarchy.  They use birth control and keep their families small just like protestants.  They shop when they please and operate businesses 7 days a week just like everyone else.   The Pope has lost his power and is now just a figurehead.  If you are hell-bent on spreading scare tactics like the ones in this thread I would think you would be on the case of a real treat to your church and mine, the Muslim religion.  Muslims have for many centuries invaded Christian countries and killed and maimed millions in the name of allah.  Here in the USA, they are getting in control more and more all the time.  They will not rest until they have conquered every living soul.   They have no mercy Amo.

We have another battle blooming and that is socialism.  If we do not stand up and defeat these new politicians we stand to lose much of what we have gained.  The Pope is a mere drop in the bucket to all the other menaces facing our nation.

Instead of plastering the forum with outdated 18th-century fear why don't you relax, allow the Holy Spirit to guide you and put your trust in Jesus.  No matter what happens in this life if we believe and love our fellow man as Jesus loves us we can claim the promises and enjoy this life as we begin our journey towards everlasting life.  Thank God for the freedom to worship on the Israelite Sabbath as I do on the first day of the week and every day.    If at some time we both have to endure hardship so be it as long as we hold fast to Jesus.   He will see us through.

[Amo]

Amo asked: 
Yes Amo, when I was a SDA the topic was ever before me.   The SDA church thrives on getting their flock in a frenzy.   They use the subject as a scare tactic and an enticement to delve into the "Spirit of Prophesy" books.  Of course, SDAs think they have the only true message of the book of Revelation and they flaunt it to every unsuspecting person that allows them to have say. 

Individual Catholics don't pay much attention to the hierarchy.  They use birth control and keep their families small just like protestants.  They shop when they please and operate businesses 7 days a week just like everyone else.   The Pope has lost his power and is now just a figurehead.  If you are hell-bent on spreading scare tactics like the ones in this thread I would think you would be on the case of a real treat to your church and mine, the Muslim religion.  Muslims have for many centuries invaded Christian countries and killed and maimed millions in the name of allah.  Here in the USA, they are getting in control more and more all the time.  They will not rest until they have conquered every living soul.   They have no mercy Amo.

We have another battle blooming and that is socialism.  If we do not stand up and defeat these new politicians we stand to lose much of what we have gained.  The Pope is a mere drop in the bucket to all the other menaces facing our nation.

Instead of plastering the forum with outdated 18th-century fear why don't you relax, allow the Holy Spirit to guide you and put your trust in Jesus.  No matter what happens in this life if we believe and love our fellow man as Jesus loves us we can claim the promises and enjoy this life as we begin our journey towards everlasting life.  Thank God for the freedom to worship on the Israelite Sabbath as I do on the first day of the week and every day.    If at some time we both have to endure hardship so be it as long as we hold fast to Jesus.   He will see us through.

Stick your head back in the sand, you are either just plain ignorant, or willingly ignorant. Perhaps a combo fo both. The proof is there for all to see. I have been putting it all over these boards for many years now. Words straight from Popes mouths, Encyclicals, and many other documents. Not to mention news articles and sources from all over. Rave on in ignorants if you wish. Go to, serve your masters well. 

[Amo]

https://mysticpost.com/2018/01/three-prophecies-from-the-virgin-mary-that-are-being-fulfilled-in-the-world-right-now/

All emphasis in the following quotes from link above are mine.

THREE PROPHECIES FROM THE VIRGIN MARY THAT ARE BEING FULFILLED IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW ...# 3 WILL SURPRISE

Three Prophecies unfolding before our eyes

I think it is important to note that Mystic Post is not inventing this idea that certain events are beginning to take place that point to the fulfillment of Fatima and Medjugorje's prophecies.

In fact, Medjugorje Visionary Mirjana has suggested this in her new book, "My Heart Will Triumph". She writes: "Our Lady told me many things that I cannot yet reveal. I can only hint at what the future holds, but I do see indications that the events are already in motion."

Prophecy #1:  "In response to a question posed by the visionaries: "What will become of Poland?" "There will be great conflicts, but in the end, the just will take over." 

Fast forward to today.

We see two monumental events that point to the fulfillment of this 1981 prophecy that "The just will take over"

Abortion in Poland became illegal on 2O16  except in cases of rape, when the woman's life is in jeopardy, or if the fetus is irreparably damaged.  Poland is one of the few countries in the world to outlaw abortion after decades of complete legalisation (during Communist rule)

Honoring God's day of rest  On November 24, 2o17 Poland's lawmakers approved a law that will phase out Sunday shopping by the year 2020. No country with a majority Christian population has passed such a law in decades.

............................................................................................

[Amo]

https://www.awaragroup.com/blog/holidays-weekly-breaks-and-vacations/

AWARA RUSSIAN LABOR LAW GUIDE: HOLIDAYS, WEEKLY BREAKS AND VACATIONS (CHAPTERS 11-12)

...........................................................

Sundays and National Holidays
Sunday is a general holiday for all employees in Russia. The other weekly holiday (in a 5-day week) can be set locally in the internal working rules or collective agreement. Both holidays should, as a rule, be granted in a row one after the other (Art 111 Labor Code). The working schedule will have to foresee a weekly break of a minimum uninterrupted duration of 42 hours (Art 110 Labor Code).................................................

Work on Sundays, national holidays and other regular days off is prohibited according to the general rule. In exceptional cases, the employer is entitled to require the employee to work on weekends and public holidays without his consent (for example, to prevent a disaster), or with his consent in the case of having to perform unforeseen work where the future normal operation of the organization depends on its urgent implementation (Art 113 Labor Code).

[Amo]

http://europeansundayalliance.eu/site/home/article/233.html?SWS=971c8282f97457cca29e81e637a916b5

Ahead of EU elections: what is next for work-free Sunday?
Brussels, 18 February 2019

 In view of the EU elections, the European Sunday Alliance discussed with Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) and electoral candidates the importance of common work-free time and decent working hours. In a time of digitalisation and a rapidly changing world of work, participants agreed that Sunday is of unique value for the social cohesion of our society and the well-being of the citizens.

After an internal workshop session in the morning, the members and supporters of the European Sunday Alliance presented key challenges of their work, and then incurred into a debate with MEPs and EU elections candidates on possible actions for the next five-year mandate of the European Parliament and the EU Commission.
 
Markus Blümel, coordinator of the Austrian Sunday Alliance, reported that current changes in national legislation were undermining the network's objective of improving the work-life balance of Austrian citizens. He showed that the new law would allow for a maximum working time of 12 hours and presented how the Austrian Sunday Alliance, together with its member organisations and other like-minded actors, organised demonstrations and public actions to oppose the legal revision.
 
Representing the Croatian Sunday Alliance, Fr. Boze Vuleta ofm outlined how a network of different civil society organisations and social partners  have joined forces in the youngest EU Member State and set up the alliance in 2018.

In the following discussion with MEPs Thomas Mann (EPP), Evelyn Regner (S&D), Marijana Petir (EPP) and the EP elections candidate Gabriele Bischoff (S&D), the participants exchanged on the outcomes of the negotiations of the recently agreed EU work-life balance directive and examined next steps towards EU policies that help citizens to find common rest time for recreation and life in society and family.

[Amo]

http://europeansundayalliance.eu/site/home

Legal victory for the protection of a work-free Sunday
Frankfurt sales forbidden by courts

The German alliance for a Free Sunday (which includes the ver.di trade union and the Catholic Employees Movement, KAB) has sued the city of Frankfurt, which had approved three Sunday sales. The courts confirmed the view of those in favour of a work-free Sunday and the sales were forbidden.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSNKm6kwikI

The above European commercial about protecting Sunday, is about Sundays laws concerning the same. Did Jesus command the politicians of this world to protect the first day of the week through civil legislation? Did any of the Apostles teach such?

[beam]

Matthew 18:18 New International Version (NIV)
18 "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Where there is no law there is no sin.  There is no law in the new covenant about keeping days.  If a country wants to have a day of rest and they vote and choose one it certainly doesn't have to have anything to do with religion.   Most Europeans do not attend any church.

SDA Sabbath dogma is built on a false supposition.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Beam: #509
Where there is no law there is no sin.

There's nowhere there's no law and there's nowhere there's no sin. Not even in the bubble you live in.

[Amo]

Matthew 18:18 New International Version (NIV)
18 "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Where there is no law there is no sin.  There is no law in the new covenant about keeping days.  If a country wants to have a day of rest and they vote and choose one it certainly doesn't have to have anything to do with religion.   Most Europeans do not attend any church.

SDA Sabbath dogma is built on a false supposition.

If so, why do Sunday keepers keep trying to ram their own laws down everyone's throats through civil legislation? It appears a great many Sunday keepers do not agree with your theology.

[current occupant2]

If so, why do Sunday keepers keep trying to ram their own laws down everyone's throats through civil legislation? It appears a great many Sunday keepers do not agree with your theology.

NOTHING in any of the 'sunday law' references mandates any religious/spiritual coercion for compliance. 

Your assertions are just as stupid as ellen's Assertions on which you base your stupid assumptions. 

[Amo]

NOTHING in any of the 'sunday law' references mandates any religious/spiritual coercion for compliance. 

Your assertions are just as stupid as ellen's Assertions on which you base your stupid assumptions.

A truly ignorant statement. So why pray tell, are spiritual institutions, investing so much time and energy concerning the implementation of totally non spiritual and therefore temporal matters? Why are they trying to force such upon all through legislation? Shall I inundate you with endless quotes regarding the spiritual nature of Sunday rest?

[beam]

A truly ignorant statement. So why pray tell, are spiritual institutions, investing so much time and energy concerning the implementation of totally non spiritual and therefore temporal matters? Why are they trying to force such upon all through legislation? Shall I inundate you with endless quotes regarding the spiritual nature of Sunday rest?

Show us where any of that "legislation" has caused Sabbath observers privileges to be taken away.  Are you protesting the fact that you too would have legislation that would allow you to have another recreation day?   Is the legislation in Europe demanding people attend church and keep the day holy?   Of course not and it doesn't stop anyone from worshipping on any day they choose.  That is a far cry from what the SDA church has taught for 150 years.   Ellen wrote that when the Sunday laws come SDAs would have to flee to the mountains.  Where are there any mountains that are not already inhabited?   I have been in Germany and it seems like they use every piece of ground for something.  Ellen supposedly got all she wrote from God.  Is God nearsighted not to be able to see that there isn't any place SDAs can run?   Was Ellen duping her adherents into believing a blatant lie in order to get them to join the fold?   Kinda looks that way now doesn't it?  What she wrote didn't happen when the mountains were still uninhabited and now it cannot.   It just proves we should not put our eggs in her basket.  Depending on her advice is the last thing anyone should do.

How can you prove that the Sabbath given at Sinai is the same day you claim to be the Sabbath?

[Amo]

Show us where any of that "legislation" has caused Sabbath observers privileges to be taken away.  Are you protesting the fact that you too would have legislation that would allow you to have another recreation day?   Is the legislation in Europe demanding people attend church and keep the day holy?   Of course not and it doesn't stop anyone from worshipping on any day they choose.  That is a far cry from what the SDA church has taught for 150 years.   Ellen wrote that when the Sunday laws come SDAs would have to flee to the mountains.  Where are there any mountains that are not already inhabited?   I have been in Germany and it seems like they use every piece of ground for something.  Ellen supposedly got all she wrote from God.  Is God nearsighted not to be able to see that there isn't any place SDAs can run?   Was Ellen duping her adherents into believing a blatant lie in order to get them to join the fold?   Kinda looks that way now doesn't it?  What she wrote didn't happen when the mountains were still uninhabited and now it cannot.   It just proves we should not put our eggs in her basket.  Depending on her advice is the last thing anyone should do.

How can you prove that the Sabbath given at Sinai is the same day you claim to be the Sabbath?

Non stop twisted garbage. There are plenty of places sparsely populated where God's people should go when the signs are manifested. The purpose of such is to be separated from the masses and be as self sufficient as possible, as it will be the larger cities and populations that have willfully surrendered their independence to their governing authorities, which said government will have to put most of their time and efforts into. This apart from the fact, that cities and heavily populated areas are no good place to be when disaster strikes as it most definitely will in direct judgment from God. SDA's are certainly not the only one's around today that see the obvious wisdom of being prepared for such with a place, provisions, and knowledge pertaining to living and surviving away from the masses.

No true Christian would want any government forcing there their beliefs concerning their personal relationship with God upon non believers, thereby creating a state of dead legalism. Your lack of knowledge concerning this perspective and many others I take for granted among the SDA's I have known, cause me at times to doubt your claim that you actually were an SDA for forty years. I'm not sure you really know or ever knew what the SDA church really teaches or taught. You should know that EGW and others said no one would be forced to attend Sunday services or abandon their beliefs regarding the seventh day when a national Sunday is first passed. This will come with time as the judgments of God are poured out upon humanity for exalting their own day of worship above God's by law. Perhaps you never really did properly understand what SDA's believe. Of course today, and ever increasingly, SDA's as all others are becoming increasingly splintered.

Your warped views and opinions of what was said and what is going to happen are just that. You are now in denial of what is presently happening right in front of your face. Go to, defend your own, defend Sunday sacredness and its establishment by civil legislation. While denying it will happen at the same time. You too, are making your decisions necessary for then end to come. 

Joel 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

[beam]

Instead of giving answers to my posts you have chosen the lowest road, that of trying to defame me.  Anyone who is reading these posts surely cannot miss this fact Amo.  It isn't becoming of you to stoop to that low level and proves you have no defense.

How can you prove that the Sabbath given at Sinai is the same day you claim to be the Sabbath?   Sure cannot look to the Jews for guidance.  They have kowtowed so many times throughout history that they would be a non-dependable source.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Beam:
« Reply #516 on: Sun May 05, 2019 -
How can you prove that the Sabbath given at Sinai is the same day you claim to be the Sabbath?

1)  The LORD GOD whose Sabbath _DAY_ the Sabbath ALWAYS has been, is the Sabbath : Seventh Day of the week's LORD STILL.

2)  And the Jews, whose Sabbath the Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD NEVER has been but claimed it their Sabbath Day, claim the Sabbath Day their Sabbath STILL.

3:  And the Lord of the Sabbath Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and forever the same, is Lord of the Sabbath Day Seventh Day of the week, STILL,

4)  and to this very Sixth Day of the week "the Preparation Day which is the Fore-Sabbath" God "GAVE" the children of Israel in the wilderness already, is Lord of "the Lord's Day" -- "Sabbath of the LORD GOD", STILL.

5)  And the CHURCH the Lord Jesus was "given to as Head", made of this very "Seventh Day God thus concerning spake by the Son IN THESE LAST DAYS" the very day and NAME of the day IN THIS WORLD WIDE NEW AND CHRISTIAN ERA, "day-of-the WEEK"!

So where are you coming out from, chappy, from over outer spaces, from foreign stellar constellations? You don't know even the colloquial of your own world and age?

6)  But the supreme PROOF of which Day of the week the Sabbath of the LORD has ALWAYS been the Seventh Day, IS CHRIST WHO ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE ROSE ON "THE THIRD DAY .. IN SABBATH'S FULLNESS being in the very daylight before the First Day of the week"!

7)  Now you want to pretend you don't know which day of the week the First Day of the week is!? Foolishness!!

Wise in your own eyes superman....

[Amo]

Instead of giving answers to my posts you have chosen the lowest road, that of trying to defame me.  Anyone who is reading these posts surely cannot miss this fact Amo.  It isn't becoming of you to stoop to that low level and proves you have no defense.

How can you prove that the Sabbath given at Sinai is the same day you claim to be the Sabbath?   Sure cannot look to the Jews for guidance.  They have kowtowed so many times throughout history that they would be a non-dependable source.

This thread is not about proving which day is actually the Sabbath. It is about the legalism or not of either what all Christians and Jews today believe to be God's appointed day of rest, Saturday or Sunday. Please direct your drivel to another thread concerning that topic, or create one for the same.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8D_mOdIqJA

The above video compiles a lot of info regarding what has been and is going on regarding Sunday legislation which so many deny, or refuse to admit could ever lead a national Sunday law. One of the reverse psychologies employed is of course, that a Sunday law forcing all to rest on that day, actually equals freedom for all concerning said day. They try to portray the idea that unless a law is made, no one has a real choice about resting or not on that day. I suppose people who will not choose to worship their own God on a day they believe He appointed for such by faith, certainly will need the rule of human laws to motivate them. This though is dead legalism. It will not only not save them, but to the contrary, will end up condemning them with immediate and eternal consequences.

[beam]

Non stop twisted garbage.

Yep, that is what the SDA church and you have been putting out since it all started in 1845.

There are plenty of places sparsely populated where God's people should go when the signs are manifested. The purpose of such is to be separated from the masses and be as self sufficient as possible,

Pure nonsense.  Name us some places here in the USA that is not now populated that could sustain life.

This apart from the fact, that cities and heavily populated areas are no good place to be when disaster strikes as it most definitely will in direct judgment from God. SDA's are certainly not the only one's around today that see the obvious wisdom of being prepared for such with a place, provisions, and knowledge pertaining to living and surviving away from the masses.

If you would put your trust in Jesus instead of Ellen White these things you are so concerned about would vanish and you could enjoy what time you have on this Earth.  You think you have all the answers, but what if you don't and have proclaimed a falsehood?  All this that you write was supposed to happen a hundred and fifty years ago according to the prophet.

No true Christian would want any government forcing there their beliefs concerning their personal relationship with God upon non believers, thereby creating a state of dead legalism. Your lack of knowledge concerning this perspective and many others I take for granted among the SDA's I have known, cause me at times to doubt your claim that you actually were an SDA for forty years.

Oh I was there alright and drank the koolaid.  What makes you able to think you know so much about me?  Just because I refute SDA dogma doesn't mean I don't understand it.  Of course, before the Lord comes people will cause strife, wars and more persecution will happen.  I believe you and SDAs are putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable.   It will be the Muslims that will continue to cause Christians and Jews to rise up and fight for freedom.  The only way it will stop is when Jesus returns and ends it all.

I'm not sure you really know or ever knew what the SDA church really teaches or taught. You should know that EGW and others said no one would be forced to attend Sunday services or abandon their beliefs regarding the seventh day when a national Sunday is first passed. This will come with time as the judgments of God are poured out upon humanity for exalting their own day of worship above God's by law.

And you believe her nonsense???    Where is it she said that Adventists would not be forced to attend Sunday services or abandon........?

Perhaps you never really did properly understand what SDA's believe. Of course today, and ever increasingly, SDA's as all others are becoming increasingly splintered.

I knew enough to realize, after many years, that the whole system was based on falsehood.  All the stuff you write is just parroting unsubstantiated garbage.

Your warped views and opinions of what was said and what is going to happen are just that.

Pot calling the kettle black, I do believe.

You are now in denial of what is presently happening right in front of your face.

I deny the garbage you are writing on this forum Amo.

Go to, defend your own, defend Sunday sacredness and its establishment by civil legislation. While denying it will happen at the same time. You too, are making your decisions necessary for then end to come. 

Now you are getting on my nerves, Amo.  There is no such agenda by me to make or defend Sunday sacredness.  No day is sacred.  Again, no day is sacred.  I do not ever defend Sunday as any different than any other day.   Stop the nonsense.

[Amo]

Yep, that is what the SDA church and you have been putting out since it all started in 1845.

Pure nonsense.  Name us some places here in the USA that is not now populated that could sustain life.
If you would put your trust in Jesus instead of Ellen White these things you are so concerned about would vanish and you could enjoy what time you have on this Earth.  You think you have all the answers, but what if you don't and have proclaimed a falsehood?  All this that you write was supposed to happen a hundred and fifty years ago according to the prophet.

Oh I was there alright and drank the koolaid.  What makes you able to think you know so much about me?  Just because I refute SDA dogma doesn't mean I don't understand it.  Of course, before the Lord comes people will cause strife, wars and more persecution will happen.  I believe you and SDAs are putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable.   It will be the Muslims that will continue to cause Christians and Jews to rise up and fight for freedom.  The only way it will stop is when Jesus returns and ends it all.

 
And you believe her nonsense???    Where is it she said that Adventists would not be forced to attend Sunday services or abandon........?
I knew enough to realize, after many years, that the whole system was based on falsehood.  All the stuff you write is just parroting unsubstantiated garbage.


Pot calling the kettle black, I do believe.

I deny the garbage you are writing on this forum Amo.
Now you are getting on my nerves, Amo.  There is no such agenda by me to make or defend Sunday sacredness.  No day is sacred.  Again, no day is sacred.  I do not ever defend Sunday as any different than any other day.   Stop the nonsense.

If you want anymore replies on topics off topic of this thread, start another thread concerning the same.

[beam]

If you want anymore replies on topics off topic of this thread, start another thread concerning the same.

Cop-out!  You will do anything to keep from answering questions related to your posts.  I am sure the lurkers will find your excuses reason to believe you cannot give an honest answer,  You degrade yourself by using insult, and all the other excuses, too bad.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Beam:
Cop-out!  You will do anything to keep from answering questions related to your posts.  I am sure the lurkers will find your excuses reason to believe you cannot give an honest answer,  You degrade yourself by using insult, and all the other excuses, too bad.

Beam about himself.

[Amo]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-02/italy-populists-seek-no-shopping-sundays-to-boost-family-values

Italy's Populists Want to Close Stores on Sundays

The idea is to give workers time to spend with their kids and go to church..............................................