A question about fornication

[ObeyTheGospel]

I am curious to know how many "Christians" think it's okay to have sex outside of marriage. Even though the Bible condemns sex outside of marriage, I keep hearing of people who profess to be a Christian yet still have sex before marriage.

What's your opinion on this?

[chosenone]

Its a sad fact, but yes, many believers think its OK to disobey God on this. Maybe because it has become totally acceptable in the world to live together and have sex before marriage, it has affected the church, but Gods is clear that it is a serious sin and sadly it does have bad consequenses for those who do this while apparently knowing they shouldnt. 

[larry2]

Acts 15:29  That ye abstain . . . from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
 
1 Corinthians 6:18  Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. We can blame shift many things we do, but one has to take the entire blane for this.
 
1 Corinthians 10:8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. There is consequence. Some have no idea what living with a so-called social disease might limit their lives. Can Christians be caught into this? Just like all other sin.

Is it right and should we consider those openly manifesting that lifestyle? In I Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul has one thrown out of the meeting for fornication, and admonishes the assembly for tolerating it. Later in 2 Corinthians 2:1-13 after suffering destruction of the flesh,  Paul told the church there to allow him back; I would assume his involvement in fornication had ceased. Evidently tolerance of sin is not the answer to helping someone. As for the world that is their nature, and we retain our old man or carnal nature and many submit to it, but we're to follow not after the flesh, but after the Spirit according to Romans 8:4.

[DaveW]

Sex outside marriage is clearly unbiblical.

While it is a "fence" around that commandment, IMO doing anything that increases sexual desire or is intended to relieve it together is also sinful.

[JohnDB]

I've never heard of a Christian promoting sex outside of marriage.

Huh. Who woulda thunk that?

[chosenone]

I've never heard of a Christian promoting sex outside of marriage.

Huh. Who woulda thunk that?

Havent actually heard any promoting it, but know plenty doing it or who have done it and who cant seem to see that is wrong. Their churches dont seem bothered either and dont challenge them.

[JohnDB]

Not where I attend church.

A young couple wanted to join the church & were refused membership till they got married.

They then got married.

They didn't know it was a "thingy for us". LOL.

They still attend and are a fine family.

[FollowHisGrace]

I don't think it is so much promoted as defended.  I've heard some go as far as to refer back to Biblical times, before the time of wedding ceremonies.  Families just sort of decided that the man and woman were going to be husband and wife and a marriage agreement was struck.  There was no actual ceremony (of course there was much more to it than that, but I won't bore everyone).  I've actually heard young couples rationalize it in this way:

"Well, we're engaged.  Back "then" the marriage started when an agreement was reached.  We're agreeing that we're getting married. . . "

[OldDad]

Not sure what is meant by people being "challenged" in regard to the Bible's truth..

If you mean the Bible truth is being preached in love, and in an environment of grace - then yes.

If you mean berating, or shaming, or condemnation - then no.

We have several cohabitating couples who are regular attenders at our church - they hear the truth of God's word and if they're listening, they have no problem telling you that a sexual relationship outside of marriage is out of bounds with God. We believe that the truth will sooner or later penetrate their hearts and minds and they will be changed. But in the meantime, we believe there is no better place for them to be than involved in out church.

BTW, for what it's worth  - fornication is no different than lying, gossiping, or stirring up strife in the church - it's all sinful and out of bounds.

[FollowHisGrace]

BTW, for what it's worth  - fornication is no different than lying, gossiping, or stirring up strife in the church - it's all sinful and out of bounds.

[DaveW]

BTW, for what it's worth  - fornication is no different than lying, gossiping, or stirring up strife in the church - it's all sinful and out of bounds.

That is NOT what Paul taught.

1 Cor 6.18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

Yes all sins are "out of bounds," but sexual sin is even worse.

[IamStefanie]

I've done it but I don't believe it's right. I would not promote it or tell my friends that it's ok. But everyone lives their lives. I tell people, sex is what it is, but people get caught up, so marriage is the best place to save it for. I believe in that.

[OldDad]

Yes all sins are "out of bounds," but sexual sin is even worse.

Wrong. In 1 Corinthians 6:18, Paul uses rhetorical license to emphasize his point. Any of us could think of any number of sins that are "against one's own body..."

Sin is sin, one is not worse or less severe than another. Paul made that abundantly clear in his "lists of sins" that are found all over the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God."

Galatians 5:19-21 "19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God."

Colossians 3:5-11 "5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don't be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. 6 Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming. 7 You used to do these things when your life was still part of this world. 8 But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language. 9 Don't lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old sinful nature and all its wicked deeds. 10 Put on your new nature, and be renewed as you learn to know your Creator and become like him. 11 In this new life, it doesn't matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbaric, uncivilized, slave, or free. Christ is all that matters, and he lives in all of us."

1 Timothy 1:9-11 "9 For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. 10 The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching 11 that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God."


No indication in any of that that one sin is somehow "worse" than another.

[DaveW]

Ayayayayay!  Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do!

Another one who thinks that all sins are equal. 

That is so unbiblical.

"He who betrayed me is guilty of the greater sin"

"All sins shall be forgiven except blaspheming the Holy Spirit"

"There is a sin unto death" 

All these and other passages speak of some sins being worse than others.

[FollowHisGrace]

I was always under the impression that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirt.  Aside from that, a sin, is a sin, is a sin, no matter how you look at it.  As long as there is repentance from that sin, it is forgivable through the Blood.  Looking at the bigger picture, as Christians we should be trying to do God's work and refrain from sin. . . of any sort. . . should it discredit our witness.

[JohnDB]

Actually there is a line of reasoning that forgivable sins are worse than others.

But it is the typing of sins that is usually incorrectly repeated.

Sins of ignorance
Sins of negligence
Planned sins
Sin of not forgiving others/judgmentalism
(Listed in progressive order)

So usually things like lying or fornication fall into the third category with browbeating or shaming people involved in such matters being worse)

And of course the unforgiveable of saying the Gospel is no good or that evil is good are still unforgivable 

[FollowHisGrace]

Believe it or not, I agree with and understand all of that.

I suppose where I am getting lost is this:

As Christians, we can mostly agree that fornication or sexual immorality is a sin, plain and simple.  So, why the debate?  All sins, save one are forgivable.  Instead of debating, reach out in love to those committing the sin so that they will hopefully see the error and change their ways.

Maybe I look at it too simply!

[IamStefanie]

As Christians, we can mostly agree that fornication or sexual immorality is a sin, plain and simple.  So, why the debate?  All sins, save one are forgivable.  Instead of debating, reach out in love to those committing the sin so that they will hopefully see the error and change their ways.

Well said, out of LOVE!

[chosenone]

Believe it or not, I agree with and understand all of that.

I suppose where I am getting lost is this:

As Christians, we can mostly agree that fornication or sexual immorality is a sin, plain and simple.  So, why the debate?  All sins, save one are forgivable.  Instead of debating, reach out in love to those committing the sin so that they will hopefully see the error and change their ways.

Maybe I look at it too simply!

Pray for the couple to see that what they are doing is wrong. Pray that they will feel convicted.I have done this in the past with 2 couples and both are no longer together because one felt convicted by God that it was wrong.
However the church they attend, if they do, has a responsibility to challenge them in a loving but firm way, as Paul says, if there is sexual sin.

[DaveW]

I was always under the impression that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirt.  Aside from that, a sin, is a sin, is a sin, no matter how you look at it.  As long as there is repentance from that sin, it is forgivable through the Blood.  Looking at the bigger picture, as Christians we should be trying to do God's work and refrain from sin. . . of any sort. . . should it discredit our witness.

Yes, the only unforgivable sin is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit (BHS).  Now in John's letters there is mention of a "sin unto death," which to my study is undefined in scripture. Is it the same as BHS? Perhaps; but that is only a guess.

Now aside from that, the basic definition of sin is that which misses the mark. (the words used were archery terms meaning to aim and miss).  Trying to do the right thing and failing is sin. That clearly is less severe a sin than intentional disobedience.

Also, anything not coming from biblical faith (hearing the voice of God and responding positively) is sin.

[Love15]

I could never understand that either. I have even known Christian women who are being pressured by men who seem to be Christian in every other way. It's odd when people have Christian beliefs, go to church every Sunday, and have sex outside of marriage regularly, even when they admit that it's a sin....Great question

[DaveW]

But it is the typing of sins that is usually incorrectly repeated.

Yeah - I make a lot of sins when typing. (aiming at the right key and mizzing)

[Episkopos]

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Ephesians 5:3
Fornication is sexual intercourse before marriage. The equivalent of fornication in marriage is adultery, that is, when you have sex with anyone who is not your marriage partner. God's standard for the Christian life is that no believer should ever be involved in fornication. Christians should not have a history of regularly committing fornication. Neither should they ever be involved in it. Not even once!
...fornication...not be once named...
Ephesians 5:3
But unfortunately, even in charismatic circles, fornication is commonly found amongst born again Christians. This "cancer

[DaveW]

Fornication is sexual intercourse before marriage.

That may be what the english word means but premarital sex is a poor translation for "pornia" that is used in the greek. It is much wider in meaning that that.

As far as I can tell, pornia was used by the Greek speaking diaspora Jewish community to describe ANYTHING that violated Torah sexual regulations.  Of course that included premarital sex; but it also included beastiality, homosexuality, rape, incest, adultery, and married sex during menses.

And yes - according to Acts 15 it is strictly forbidden for gentile christians.

[Deborah4God]

I think some sins have worse consequences than others-- the effects are more long lasting, cause more problems, more problems of a serious nature, and I think that is why sexual sin tends to get emphasized more than say gossip. Having sex outside of marriage can say, produce a child. Gossiping is a sin and has negative consequences, but those aren't as big. Sin is sin in that it all separates us from God, is bad to do, but surely murder has more grave consequences than than speaking out in anger that one time!

Anyways, I think sex outside of marriage is wrong. I *have* run into groups that question that precept, I've known them, and sadly I was influenced by them  I think this is a serious issue.

[Lavender]

I was always under the impression that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirt.  Aside from that, a sin, is a sin, is a sin, no matter how you look at it.  As long as there is repentance from that sin, it is forgivable through the Blood.  Looking at the bigger picture, as Christians we should be trying to do God's work and refrain from sin. . . of any sort. . . should it discredit our witness.

Yes, the only unforgivable sin is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit (BHS).  Now in John's letters there is mention of a "sin unto death," which to my study is undefined in scripture. Is it the same as BHS? Perhaps; but that is only a guess.

Now aside from that, the basic definition of sin is that which misses the mark. (the words used were archery terms meaning to aim and miss).  Trying to do the right thing and failing is sin. That clearly is less severe a sin than intentional disobedience.

Also, anything not coming from biblical faith (hearing the voice of God and responding positively) is sin.

Hello Dave

I'm curious about your statement:   "Trying to do the right thing and failing is sin.  That clearly is less severe a sin than intentional disobedience."  Could you please clarify that with maybe some examples?  Thanks.

[DaveW]

I'm curious about your statement:   "Trying to do the right thing and failing is sin.  That clearly is less severe a sin than intentional disobedience."  Could you please clarify that with maybe some examples?  Thanks.

The words used in the original texts (and even the word 'sin' in elizabethan english) are archery terms meaning to aim at a target and miss.  That meaning comes thru even a bit in Romans 3.23: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

In the Hebrew scriptures there were sins (aiming and missing) transgressions (intentional disobedience) and iniquities (transgenerational effects of sins and transgressions).  It is obvious from the way the sacrifices are described that transgressions were much more difficult to remedy than sins.

If you are a parent and you tell your child to clean up his room before dinner; and you come to check on his progress, which is worse? Him trying to clean up but not succeeding or him refusing to even try?

[Lavender]

I'm curious about your statement:   "Trying to do the right thing and failing is sin.  That clearly is less severe a sin than intentional disobedience."  Could you please clarify that with maybe some examples?  Thanks.

The words used in the original texts (and even the word 'sin' in elizabethan english) are archery terms meaning to aim at a target and miss.  That meaning comes thru even a bit in Romans 3.23: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

In the Hebrew scriptures there were sins (aiming and missing) transgressions (intentional disobedience) and iniquities (transgenerational effects of sins and transgressions).  It is obvious from the way the sacrifices are described that transgressions were much more difficult to remedy than sins.

If you are a parent and you tell your child to clean up his room before dinner; and you come to check on his progress, which is worse? Him trying to clean up but not succeeding or him refusing to even try?

So, are you saying that if Yahweh tells me to STOP stealing and I only steal now and then, it's not as bad as if I steal every day?

It seems to me that missing the mark is still deliberate disobedience because we do have a choice and a will to do or not to do. 

[DaveW]

So, are you saying that if Yahweh tells me to STOP stealing and I only steal now and then, it's not as bad as if I steal every day?

It seems to me that missing the mark is still deliberate disobedience because we do have a choice and a will to do or not to do.  

Actually it is not deliberate.

We are told in Matt 5 that to look at a  (married) woman with lust was the same as commiting adultery with her.  

So God HAS told us to not lust.  But if someone has had a long history of lust sees someone attractive they often have no control over how that makes them feel even if they fight it as hard as they can.  That is totally missing the mark.

We are told to believe God.  But we often have a difficult time with that as well. TO not have faith is missing the mark and unpleasing to God.

We are told that whatever not done if faith is sin.  That can lead to a spiritual connundrum, a kind of "sin if you do and sin if you don't" situation.  On the marriage folder, there is a guy who is married to a woman who believes having sex with her husband is wrong.  So for her to have sex is sin because she cannot do it in faith.  However to refuse him sex is a direct violation of a biblical command (in 1 Cor 7 and other places) so that is sinful as well.

Which sin do you consider "deliberate disobedience?"

[psalm22]

Not where I attend church.

A young couple wanted to join the church & were refused membership till they got married.

They then got married.

They didn't know it was a "thingy for us". LOL.

They still attend and are a fine family.

If you do not mind me asking, what church is this?  I do know that the Catholic Church prohibits full participation in the sacrements to those who live in a persistant sinful state but I was unaware that any (Christian) Church would deny membership to anyone who made a profession of faith.  I have always seen all of Christianity as a welcome place for all who seek the Lord.  I have always seen our mission as attracting the sinners to seek Christ and let him work on their spirit.  Why would anyone need to get cleaned up to take a bath?

[psalm22]

I don't think it is so much promoted as defended.  I've heard some go as far as to refer back to Biblical times, before the time of wedding ceremonies.  Families just sort of decided that the man and woman were going to be husband and wife and a marriage agreement was struck.  There was no actual ceremony (of course there was much more to it than that, but I won't bore everyone).  I've actually heard young couples rationalize it in this way:

"Well, we're engaged.  Back "then" the marriage started when an agreement was reached.  We're agreeing that we're getting married. . . "

Interesting point.  Many instances indicate intent is equal to action.  God tells us that to lust after a woman is the same as acting on that lust.  Covetousness is the same as theft etc.  While I am not familiar with all the denominational stances on things I do know that even the Catholic Church recognizes Baptism in three separate forms.  Baptism by water is the traditional ceremony.  Baptism by fire when someone, even at the last minute or under extreme conditions cries out to Christ for Salvation.  Finnally, Baptism by desire where there is true intent without the opportunity for or necessity of a formal ritual or simply the intent.

That being said, if a couple were to consider themselves husband and wife and held the honor and obligation of that role within what the bible teaches, I would be inclined to say that intent was enough.  Why someone would willingly and seriously enter into a spiritually binding relationship by shy away from a legally binding one does not seem to make sense.  But the theory seems sound.

Lastly,  after all of that.... Yes, fornication is a sin.

[BlackSheep]

Old dad - would you please define "legalism". Either from biblical text or your own definition. Thank you, BlackSheep

[chosenone]

Not where I attend church.

A young couple wanted to join the church & were refused membership till they got married.

They then got married.

They didn't know it was a "thingy for us". LOL.

They still attend and are a fine family.

If you do not mind me asking, what church is this?  I do know that the Catholic Church prohibits full participation in the sacrements to those who live in a persistant sinful state but I was unaware that any (Christian) Church would deny membership to anyone who made a profession of faith.  I have always seen all of Christianity as a welcome place for all who seek the Lord.  I have always seen our mission as attracting the sinners to seek Christ and let him work on their spirit.  Why would anyone need to get cleaned up to take a bath?

In my church they would be welcome to attend as new people and/or seekers if they werent married, but they wouldnt be allowed to become members. At some point if they decided to come regularly and become believers, I am sure that the pastor would speak to them and challenge them on marriage and what God says about it.

[BlackSheep]

If one sin is no different than any other, then please explain away this admonition to expell those who are fornicators.

1Co 5:1  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6  Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7  Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8  Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9  I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10  Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13  But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

[JohnDB]

Even today sleeping with your stepmother is considered whacko not to mention a shameful thing. Not something to be proud of as this guy was. OK?