Catholics are Christian

[HRoberson]

Well you say there are a number of Churches that Claim Apostolic succession
they can claim it all they want
in the 1 2 3 4 5th... centuries there were no seventh day adventists, Baptists, assembly of God's, presbytyrians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Trinitarians....etc

Them trying to prove apostolic sucession is like me trying to Historically prove that Napolean existed before Alexander the great

No evidence, just a claim

Well, not really. It largely depends on what version of AS we want to use. Historically, there are various interpretations including that of Tertullian who allows that churches who "teach the same stuff" can claim AS, without the need for the mechanical laying on of hands from Bishop to Bishop. The EO constellation does not see AS the same as you either.

Our Episcopal ordination can trace itself back to the first century as well as the Papacy

Well, actually, the existence of the Papacy as senior juridical head of the church cannot.

[Lily76]

IMHO, Catholicism is not even a denomination. It really is an entire religion unto itself.

I agree.

But The Pope and whoever in that position is not Christian.

I can't believe people study the bible for years and insist on teaching the same lies again.

[Texas Lady]

Did I wander into an anti-Catholic web site?

[kensington]

Did I wander into an anti-Catholic web site?

No, you found the discussion forum. Here posts are open for discussion, rebuttal and debate. It gets intense to say the least.

If you are looking for a place where the Catholics can speak to their beliefs an dogma without any disagreement... you want the Safe House. It's in the Catholic Forum, at the top. Click that.

[wayseer]

No, you found the discussion forum.

There is no discussion here - only personal opinion masquerading 'debate'.

The only thing that this thread demonstrates is that most Christians have little idea about that of which the profess so much.

[winsome]

Nobody has defined the basis on which anyone can be called a christian - i.e. how you become one.

Surely that must be discussed before you can say who is a christian and who is not.

[Lively Stone]

Nobody has defined the basis on which anyone can be called a christian - i.e. how you become one.

Surely that must be discussed before you can say who is a christian and who is not.

Go ahead and try.

[winsome]

Nobody has defined the basis on which anyone can be called a christian - i.e. how you become one.

Surely that must be discussed before you can say who is a christian and who is not.

Go ahead and try.

Acts 11:26 "...it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians

[kensington]

No, you found the discussion forum.

There is no discussion here - only personal opinion masquerading 'debate'.
 
The only thing that this thread demonstrates is that most Christians have little idea about that of which the profess so much.

Do you mean "Christians"?  Christian/Catholics"?  "Catholic/Christians"?  or "Catholics"?

Because there seems to be some discussion on these matters also. So, when you say "Most Christians"... which sect do you imply?

[kensington]

I'm a saved by grace, blood bought, Bible taught, Holy spirit filled, tongue talking, baptized in water, child of the Living God.

Being a child of Jesus Christ... I'm a Christian. 

[Lively Stone]

I'm a saved by grace, blood bought, Bible taught, Holy spirit filled, tongue talking, baptized in water, child of the Living God.

Being a child of Jesus Christ... I'm a Christian. 

Sister!!!

[matt1]

AVZ
I was raised by my Mom and she had a set of world book encyclopedias
I am currently at St. Gregory's retreat in Bayard Iowa
I have no access to the world book encyclopedia right now
I know without a doubt that the set of WBE's that my mom had had a list of every Pope from Peter, Linus, Cletus, Clement to John Paul 2

However I tried to google it and only a bunch of wikepedia and Catholic encyclopedia stuff came up
I would encourage you to find a world book encyclopedia and look up the word Pope
That is where I originally found the account of all the Popes, their names, the dates when they were the Pope

1.St. Peter (32-67)
2.St. Linus (67-76)
3.St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4.St. Clement I (88-97)
5.St. Evaristus (97-105)
6.St. Alexander I (105-115)
7.St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
8.St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9.St. Hyginus (136-140)
10.St. Pius I (140-155)
11.St. Anicetus (155-166)
12.St. Soter (166-175)
13.St. Eleutherius (175-189)
14.St. Victor I (189-199)
15.St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
16.St. Callistus I (217-22)
17.St. Urban I (222-30)
18.St. Pontain (230-35)
19.St. Anterus (235-36)
20.St. Fabian (236-50)
21.St. Cornelius (251-53)
22.St. Lucius I (253-54)
23.St. Stephen I (254-257)
24.St. Sixtus II (257-258)
25.St. Dionysius (260-268)
26.St. Felix I (269-274)
27.St. Eutychian (275-283)
28.St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
29.St. Marcellinus (296-304)
30.St. Marcellus I (308-309)
31.St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
32.St. Miltiades (311-14)
33.St. Sylvester I (314-35)
34.St. Marcus (336)
35.St. Julius I (337-52)
36.Liberius (352-66)
37.St. Damasus I (366-83)
38.St. Siricius (384-99)
39.St. Anastasius I (399-401)
40.St. Innocent I (401-17)
41.St. Zosimus (417-18)
42.St. Boniface I (418-22) 
43.St. Celestine I (422-32)
44.St. Sixtus III (432-40)
45.St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
46.St. Hilarius (461-68)
47.St. Simplicius (468-83)
48.St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
49.St. Gelasius I (492-96)
50.Anastasius II (496-98)
51.St. Symmachus (498-514)
52.St. Hormisdas (514-23)
53.St. John I (523-26)
54.St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
55.Boniface II (530-32)
56.John II (533-35)
57.St. Agapetus I (535-36) Also called Agapitus I
58.St. Silverius (536-37)
59.Vigilius (537-55)
60.Pelagius I (556-61)
61.John III (561-74)
62.Benedict I (575-79)
63.Pelagius II (579-90)
64.St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
65.Sabinian (604-606)
66.Boniface III (607)
67.St. Boniface IV (608-15)
68.St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
69.Boniface V (619-25)
70.Honorius I (625-38)
71.Severinus (640)
72.John IV (640-42)
73.Theodore I (642-49)
74.St. Martin I (649-55)
75.St. Eugene I (655-57)
76.St. Vitalian (657-72)
77.Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
78.Donus (676-78)
79.St. Agatho (678-81)
80.St. Leo II (682-83)
81.St. Benedict II (684-85)
82.John V (685-86)
83.Conon (686-87)
84.St. Sergius I (687-701)
85.John VI (701-05)
86.John VII (705-07)
87.Sisinnius (708)
88.Constantine (708-15)
89.St. Gregory II (715-31)
90.St. Gregory III (731-41)
91.St. Zachary (741-52)
92.Stephen II (752) he died before being consecrated
93.Stephen III (752-57)
94.St. Paul I (757-67)
95.Stephen IV (767-72)
96.Adrian I (772-95)
97.St. Leo III (795-816)
98.Stephen V (816-17)
99.St. Paschal I (817-24)
100.Eugene II (824-27)
101.Valentine (827)
102.Gregory IV (827-44)
103.Sergius II (844-47)
104.St. Leo IV (847-55)
105.Benedict III (855-58)
106.St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
107.Adrian II (867-72)
108.John VIII (872-82)
109.Marinus I (882-84)
110.St. Adrian III (884-85)
111.Stephen VI (885-91)
112.Formosus (891-96)
113.Boniface VI (896)
114.Stephen VII (896-97)
115.Romanus (897)
116.Theodore II (897)
117.John IX (898-900)
118.Benedict IV (900-03)
119.Leo V (903)
120.Sergius III (904-11)
121.Anastasius III (911-13)
122.Lando (913-14)
123.John X (914-28)
124.Leo VI (928)
125.Stephen VIII (929-31)
126.John XI (931-35)
127.Leo VII (936-39)
128.Stephen IX (939-42)
129.Marinus II (942-46)
130.Agapetus II (946-55)
131.John XII (955-63)
132.Leo VIII (963-64)
133.Benedict V (964)
134.John XIII (965-72)
135.Benedict VI (973-74)
136.Benedict VII (974-83)
137.John XIV (983-84)
138.John XV (985-96)
139.Gregory V (996-99)
140.Sylvester II (999-1003)
141.John XVII (1003)
142.John XVIII (1003-09)
143.Sergius IV (1009-12)
144.Benedict VIII (1012-24)
145.John XIX (1024-32)
146.Benedict IX (1032-45)
147.Sylvester III (1045) 
148.Benedict IX (1045)
149.Gregory VI (1045-46)
150.Clement II (1046-47)
151.Benedict IX (1047-48)
152.Damasus II (1048)
153.St. Leo IX (1049-54)
154.Victor II (1055-57)
155.Stephen X (1057-58)
156.Nicholas II (1058-61)
157.Alexander II (1061-73)
158.St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
159.Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
160.Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
161.Paschal II (1099-1118)
162.Gelasius II (1118-19)
163.Callistus II (1119-24)
164.Honorius II (1124-30)
165.Innocent II (1130-43)
166.Celestine II (1143-44)
167.Lucius II (1144-45)
168.Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
169.Anastasius IV (1153-54)
170.Adrian IV (1154-59)
171.Alexander III (1159-81)
172.Lucius III (1181-85)
173.Urban III (1185-87)
174.Gregory VIII (1187)
175.Clement III (1187-91)
176.Celestine III (1191-98)
177.Innocent III (1198-1216)
178.Honorius III (1216-27)
179.Gregory IX (1227-41)
180.Celestine IV (1241)
181.Innocent IV (1243-54)
182.Alexander IV (1254-61)
183.Urban IV (1261-64)
184.Clement IV (1265-68)
185.Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
186.Blessed Innocent V (1276)
187.Adrian V (1276)
188.John XXI (1276-77)
189.Nicholas III (1277-80)
190.Martin IV (1281-85)
191.Honorius IV (1285-87)
192.Nicholas IV (1288-92)
193.St. Celestine V (1294)
194.Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
195.Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
196.Clement V (1305-14)
197.John XXII (1316-34)
198.Benedict XII (1334-42)
199.Clement VI (1342-52)
200.Innocent VI (1352-62)
201.Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
202.Gregory XI (1370-78)
203.Urban VI (1378-89)
204.Boniface IX (1389-1404)
205.Innocent VII (1404-06)
206.Gregory XII (1406-15)
207.Martin V (1417-31)
208.Eugene IV (1431-47)
209.Nicholas V (1447-55)
210.Callistus III (1455-58)
211.Pius II (1458-64)
212.Paul II (1464-71)
213.Sixtus IV (1471-84)
214.Innocent VIII (1484-92)
215.Alexander VI (1492-1503)
216.Pius III (1503)
217.Julius II (1503-13)
218.Leo X (1513-21)
219.Adrian VI (1522-23)
220.Clement VII (1523-34)
221.Paul III (1534-49)
222.Julius III (1550-55)
223.Marcellus II (1555)
224.Paul IV (1555-59)
225.Pius IV (1559-65)
226.St. Pius V (1566-72)
227.Gregory XIII (1572-85)
228.Sixtus V (1585-90)
229.Urban VII (1590)
230.Gregory XIV (1590-91)
231.Innocent IX (1591)
232.Clement VIII (1592-1605)
233.Leo XI (1605)
234.Paul V (1605-21)
235.Gregory XV (1621-23)
236.Urban VIII (1623-44)
237.Innocent X (1644-55)
238.Alexander VII (1655-67)
239.Clement IX (1667-69)
240.Clement X (1670-76)
241.Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
242.Alexander VIII (1689-91)
243.Innocent XII (1691-1700)
244.Clement XI (1700-21)
245.Innocent XIII (1721-24)
246.Benedict XIII (1724-30)
247.Clement XII (1730-40)
248.Benedict XIV (1740-58)
249.Clement XIII (1758-69)
250.Clement XIV (1769-74)
251.Pius VI (1775-99)
252.Pius VII (1800-23)
253.Leo XII (1823-29)
254.Pius VIII (1829-30)
255.Gregory XVI (1831-46)
256.Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
257.Leo XIII (1878-1903)
258.St. Pius X (1903-14)

259.Benedict XV (1914-22)
260.Pius XI (1922-39)
261.Pius XII (1939-58)
262.Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
263.Paul VI (1963-78)
264.John Paul I (1978)
265.John Paul II (1978-2005)
266.Benedict XVI (2005—)

[winsome]

I'm a saved by grace, blood bought, Bible taught, Holy spirit filled, tongue talking, baptized in water, child of the Living God.

Being a child of Jesus Christ... I'm a Christian. 

Child of Jesus?

[Lively Stone]

I'm a saved by grace, blood bought, Bible taught, Holy spirit filled, tongue talking, baptized in water, child of the Living God.

Being a child of Jesus Christ... I'm a Christian. 

Child of Jesus?

Don't be nit-picky...

John 13:33
Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, 'Where I am going, you cannot come,' so now I say to you.

John 21:5
Then Jesus said to them, "Children, have you any food?

[winsome]

I'm a saved by grace, blood bought, Bible taught, Holy spirit filled, tongue talking, baptized in water, child of the Living God.

Being a child of Jesus Christ... I'm a Christian.  

Child of Jesus?

Don't be nit-picky...

John 13:33
Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, 'Where I am going, you cannot come,' so now I say to you.

John 21:5
Then Jesus said to them, "Children, have you any food?

[LightHammer]

On the contrary if they are proud and faithful Catholics they know that Catholic Christianity is the only true Christianity with all others Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Armenian and Protestant all being off shoots that can't compare.

Are you kidding me LH?  History proves the Catholics (alegience to Rome) broke from the Orthodox and not the other way around.

I can make just as good a case for Orthodoxy breaking off from Messianic Judaism and MJ being the true original New Covenant faith.

Are you serious?

Look Dave try not to waste my time. That's not true. The East pulled away from the West. We can go forty rounds in a new thread right now and I'll show you.

[LightHammer]

IMHO, Catholicism is not even a denomination. It really is an entire religion unto itself.

I would agree in part.

[FireSword]

I'm a saved by grace, blood bought, Bible taught, Holy spirit filled, tongue talking, baptized in water, child of the Living God.

Being a child of Jesus Christ... I'm a Christian.  

Child of Jesus?

Don't be nit-picky...

John 13:33
Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, 'Where I am going, you cannot come,' so now I say to you.

John 21:5
Then Jesus said to them, "Children, have you any food?

[Star of David]

If the Bible was easy to interpret, we would not have 30,000 denominations.

The Bible fortunately is easy to interpret. The onus is upto you to prove that if Reformation would not have happened the total number of people accepting Christ would have been larger than the total number of people consolidated in the Catholic Church and the 30,000 denominations together.

The Bible is easy to interpret?!! I suppose that we should all just listen to your own personal interpretation---and your own personal interpretation, alone---to have the correct interpretation of the Bible, AVZ.

If, as you say, AVZ, the Bible is easy to interpret, then why do we have so many wildly different interpretations on how the End Times will unfold?

[mclees8]

Catholics to this day are nearly one fifth of the world's population.

That one single denomination outnumbers all 30,000 protestant denominations combined

For two thousand years Pagans, Muslims, som Jews, Communists, and as we in some cases even Protestants, the media, Modernists, atheists, other Heresies, and even Catholic themselves (including and especially the Hierarchy) have tried to Destroy the Church
Many of our Popes were martyred and there were times where the Catholic Church was persecuted in every country in the world at the same time.

Any other institution would have been defeated long ago, however, Christ did promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church.
Catholicism is not only a colossal success, it is a miracle, and it is also a colossal enigma.
The most hated institution in the world.

When the Pope Condemend Contraception he didnt do so to win the popular vote.  many Catholics, including rebellious priests, despise this teaching.
A large percentage of Catholics do not agree with it or obey it.
However, the Pope has the keys of St. Peter, and the Holy spirit guides him when he speaks ex-cathedra, and so he spoke the truth knowing that people would make fun of him, hate him, and that many would leave the Church over it.
He did it any way. 

Same thing with Women priests,  Same thing with abortion, divorce and plenty other issues. 

We can count on the Catholic Church to speak the truth regardless of how many worldy people or even Catholics will object and throw a fit.
As you can see, we cant always count on this from the non-Catholic denominatons who changed thier stance on contraception, women priests (pastors), some on abortion, some on homosexuality.

It can be proven that the Church dates back to the time of Christ. 
There is more proof of that than there is proof that Alexander the Great existed.
It can be proved that the Apostles had Successors.
Anticatholics say, "where does Scripture say the Apostles had Successors?"
Well, there wouldnt be much talk of that because only one Apostle died in the Scripture.
That Apostle had a successor, Matthias

If you want to read History or even the world book encyclopedia (non Catholic sources) you will find it not even a matter to refute that the Apostles ordained successors


There are Protestant Pastors who decided, "I want my services to look more like the services that the 1st and 2nd century Christians had
They do the research from what the early Christians wrote about their services, and try it out.  Then they get complains, "reverend this looks too much like a Catholic Mass".

I know one of these people who tried that out, he is now a Catholic Deacon.

Protestants claim to be Solo Scriptura, but they reject our Lord's and St. Paul's clear teaching that it is the Body and blood of Christ

They say, it cant be Christ, it looks and tastes like bread and wine.
Well, the Bible just looks and feels like a book.  With Faith you believe it is the word of God, as I do.

We dont see God or touch him, at least most of us dont.
We have faith.  When you're in an empty room you look around, it just looks, feels, sounds, and smells like a vacant room. 
However you know God is there.

The Eucharist doesnt need to look or taste like something different than bread or wine for us to have Faith that God has made himself present body blood soul and divinity

in the Consecrated Host.
In fact those who have faith in what Jesus said, believe this.

Those who reject what Jesus said follow their own logic instead of the word of God as these people did:  John 6:52-54, 67

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Mati your church claims a population that it really has no claiim to. such as all the beleivers back to Pentecost. The religious political pseudo authority known as the Roman catholci church underpopes was not the church Jesus founded but Rouge bishops who were of their own ambitions changing the whole concept of the church Every beleiver before the fith century you can subtract.

Secondly after the fifth century there was no real saving faith by persoall choice. The popes channeled salvation through adherance to the relgious authority. These you can also minis from you count.

As for the current population today that is because as the rulling relgious authority with temproal powers  conquest of other countries and continents. Your whole thinking about  being the largest christian chuch is based on false assumtions.

[AVZ]

If the Bible was easy to interpret, we would not have 30,000 denominations.

The Bible fortunately is easy to interpret. The onus is upto you to prove that if Reformation would not have happened the total number of people accepting Christ would have been larger than the total number of people consolidated in the Catholic Church and the 30,000 denominations together.

The Bible is easy to interpret?!! I suppose that we should all just listen to your own personal interpretation---and your own personal interpretation, alone---to have the correct interpretation of the Bible, AVZ.

If, as you say, AVZ, the Bible is easy to interpret, then why do we have so many wildly different interpretations on how the End Times will unfold?

The Bible is very easy to interpret. All these different denominations do not exist because the Bible is difficult to comprehend, no, they exist because people are difficult and want to give their own swing to what the Bible says.

[DaveW]

If, as you say, AVZ, the Bible is easy to interpret, then why do we have so many wildly different interpretations on how the End Times will unfold?

The Bible is very easy to interpret. All these different denominations do not exist because the Bible is difficult to comprehend, no, they exist because people are difficult and want to give their own swing to what the Bible says.

All these denominations exist because the gentile church excluded the Jewish believers back in the 2nd-4th centuries.  And according to Romans 3 it is the Jews who were entrusted with the job of preserving and intrepreting the oracles of God. If you lose the people God gave that job to, how can you do the job correctly? 

Rom 3.1  Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Because first of all, they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

I would submit that it is a job that CANNOT be done by the gentile church.  So division reigns supreme until that is recognized.

[mclees8]

If, as you say, AVZ, the Bible is easy to interpret, then why do we have so many wildly different interpretations on how the End Times will unfold?

The Bible is very easy to interpret. All these different denominations do not exist because the Bible is difficult to comprehend, no, they exist because people are difficult and want to give their own swing to what the Bible says.

All these denominations exist because the gentile church excluded the Jewish believers back in the 2nd-4th centuries.  And according to Romans 3 it is the Jews who were entrusted with the job of preserving and intrepreting the oracles of God. If you lose the people God gave that job to, how can you do the job correctly? 

Rom 3.1  Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Because first of all, they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

I would submit that it is a job that CANNOT be done by the gentile church.  So division reigns supreme until that is recognized.

I believe this means the Jews were responsible for preserving Gods laws given to Moses. Doesn't your church authority claim to be the only infallible interpreters. Do they go to the jews for their interpritation?

[AVZ]

If, as you say, AVZ, the Bible is easy to interpret, then why do we have so many wildly different interpretations on how the End Times will unfold?

The Bible is very easy to interpret. All these different denominations do not exist because the Bible is difficult to comprehend, no, they exist because people are difficult and want to give their own swing to what the Bible says.

All these denominations exist because the gentile church excluded the Jewish believers back in the 2nd-4th centuries.  And according to Romans 3 it is the Jews who were entrusted with the job of preserving and intrepreting the oracles of God. If you lose the people God gave that job to, how can you do the job correctly? 

Rom 3.1  Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Because first of all, they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

I would submit that it is a job that CANNOT be done by the gentile church.  So division reigns supreme until that is recognized.

I believe this means that it were the Jews first who were called as God's chosen people, they had a history with God and every Jew was brought up in that tradition. That was the advantage the Jew had over the Gentile.
I would read it as:

Rom 3.1  Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Because first of all, they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

[Star of David]

The Bible is very easy to interpret. All these different denominations do not exist because the Bible is difficult to comprehend, no, they exist because people are difficult and want to give their own swing to what the Bible says.

Yes, AVZ, I do agree with you that certain people are difficult and want to give their own swing to what the Bible says.

[DaveW]

I believe this means the Jews were responsible for preserving Gods laws given to Moses. Doesn't your church authority claim to be the only infallible interpreters. Do they go to the jews for their interpritation?

My church authority?  Messianic Judaism?  We ARE the Jews.

And yes it started with the Torah revealed on Mt Sinai; but since the gifts and callings (including being entrusted with the oracles of God) are irrevocable, that now includes Genesis thru Revelation.

We are a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGG way off from being able to do that effectively. (be the intrepreters)
I do believe we will get there eventually.

[AVZ]

I believe this means the Jews were responsible for preserving Gods laws given to Moses. Doesn't your church authority claim to be the only infallible interpreters. Do they go to the jews for their interpritation?

My church authority?  Messianic Judaism?  We ARE the Jews.

And yes it started with the Torah revealed on Mt Sinai; but since the gifts and callings (including being entrusted with the oracles of God) are irrevocable, that now includes Genesis thru Revelation.

We are a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGG way off from being able to do that effectively. (be the intrepreters)
I do believe we will get there eventually.

Well, the Bible says you will eventually get there.

[mclees8]

I believe this means the Jews were responsible for preserving Gods laws given to Moses. Doesn't your church authority claim to be the only infallible interpreters. Do they go to the jews for their interpritation?

My church authority?  Messianic Judaism?  We ARE the Jews.

And yes it started with the Torah revealed on Mt Sinai; but since the gifts and callings (including being entrusted with the oracles of God) are irrevocable, that now includes Genesis thru Revelation.

We are a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGG way off from being able to do that effectively. (be the intrepreters)
I do believe we will get there eventually.

Excuse me Dave W are you A practicing Jew or are you of the Catholic church. I guess if you want to keep your head back in the Torah that is fine and i take nothing away from the Old Testamen, but i see Christ as the one who fulfilled all the Law and has given us a better promise than the Old Covnant. Those of us who are of the better promise have fulfilled the law throught Christ when we keep the two greatest commandments. Love the Lord thy God with all your heart mind and soul. and love your neightbor as yourself.

[jmldn2]

 
Are we to judge an individual's heart?  I do not believe every member of my United Methodist church is a Christian.  However, whether someone is a Christian because they attend any church is not always true.  I personally do not agree with the form of worship of the RC but I would not say their members are not Christians. 

[DaveW]

Excuse me Dave W are you A practicing Jew or are you of the Catholic church.

Neither.  I am a gentile adherent to Messianic Judaism.

I guess if you want to keep your head back in the Torah that is fine and i take nothing away from the Old Testament, but i see Christ as the one who fulfilled all the Law and has given us a better promise than the Old Covenant.

Messianic Judaism is NEW COVENANT Judaism.

Those of us who are of the better promise

A bit condescending if you ask me ...

have fulfilled the law through Christ when we keep the two greatest commandments. Love the Lord thy God with all your heart mind and soul. and love your neighbor as yourself.

Are you saying that I and we are NOT doing that?  On what basis?

[mclees8]

Excuse me Dave W are you A practicing Jew or are you of the Catholic church.

Neither.  I am a gentile adherent to Messianic Judaism.

I guess if you want to keep your head back in the Torah that is fine and i take nothing away from the Old Testament, but i see Christ as the one who fulfilled all the Law and has given us a better promise than the Old Covenant.

Messianic Judaism is NEW COVENANT Judaism.

Those of us who are of the better promise

A bit condescending if you ask me ...

have fulfilled the law through Christ when we keep the two greatest commandments. Love the Lord thy God with all your heart mind and soul. and love your neighbor as yourself.

Are you saying that I and we are NOT doing that?  On what basis?

Sorry it sounded condesending. Perhaps i am not familier with Messianic Judaism. I will google it. Do you mix the Old Covnant with the New. Does it mean mean Jews who beleive in Christ?

OK Dave I did Google. wicki says you are fairly a recent movement yet you are Jews who beleive in Christ and the New Testement. I did not go indepth and so at that you are a brother in Christ. I do not no if I could agree with your faith on all points with out reseach. I will say you are modern day Jewish Christians. Welcome and what brings you here.

[DaveW]

Modern?  Yes and no.

The 'modern' movement was started in the late 1800s by a few orthodox rabbis (Lichtenstien, Rabinowitz, et al) in eastern Europe who came to faith in Messiah.

Since then there has been research into the early New Covenant Jewish communities in the 2nd and 3rd centuries which were based on the Jerusalem congregation under James (as shown in Acts). We have tried to emulate them as much as is practical.

So you could say we are a modern movement but with ancient roots.

Like any movement there are various segments and like all Jews, we have a variety of opinions on almost everything. If you want to continue your research on the particular branch I am affiliated with, go here:

www.tikkunministries.org

[LightHammer]

Modern?  Yes and no.

The 'modern' movement was started in the late 1800s by a few orthodox rabbis (Lichtenstien, Rabinowitz, et al) in eastern Europe who came to faith in Messiah.

Since then there has been research into the early New Covenant Jewish communities in the 2nd and 3rd centuries which were based on the Jerusalem congregation under James (as shown in Acts). We have tried to emulate them as much as is practical.

So you could say we are a modern movement but with ancient roots.

Like any movement there are various segments and like all Jews, we have a variety of opinions on almost everything. If you want to continue your research on the particular branch I am affiliated with, go here:

www.tikkunministries.org

Studying the Catholic Church in Jerusalem and then trying to recreate what you think is accurate about her does not make that Church your roots.

It makes it something you admire and want to be like but your movement grew out of Judaism not Christianity. If we actually follow the branch of your original Abrahamic fath (Judaism) back to its first century roots in Jerusalem more than likely it would be vehemently opposed to the Church in Jerusalem if not violently perecuting her.

Its cool with me if you wish to retain the elements of 19th century Judaism in your liturgy. I do however think its dishonest to call the Church in Jerusalem your "roots".

When the Roman Catholic Church says that its roots lie in the 1st century church its because it literally does. The Roman Church is ancient with a book in the Bible from St. Paul and St. Peter and St. Paul establishing the priesthood therein. St. Peter and St. Paul traveled from the Church's birthplace in Jerusalem so Rome can historically, biblically and traditionally claim its roots in Jerusalem.

The Egyptian Church in Alexandria was founded by St. Mark who authored a Gospel (or someone using his name did). St. Mark was with the Church in Jerusalem so the Alexandrian Church can claim its roots in Jerusalem's 1st century community.

To call something your roots does not mean you were spawned at a later time and then latched to a heritage that is ancient. It means you are a continuation of the heritage.

Messianic Judaism is not.

[betsy]

Matt
If you went to daily mass you would hear the entire Bible from Genesis to revelation read out loud over and over again. 
After each reading we say "the word of the Lord, thanks be to God"  "The Gospel of the Lord, praise to you Lord Jesus Christ"

Did you pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and enlightenment BEFORE you read the Bible?

[FireSword]

I have great hope for messianic Jews being the fulfillment of promises made by God. Hopefully God bring a new church and unite all faith in Christ and remove self proclaimed churches from their fraud and thievery. The scriptures say if a thief be found it must restore 7 times.