Catholics are Christian

[FaithWithoutWorksIsDead]

I have great hope for messianic Jews being the fulfillment of promises made by God. Hopefully God bring a new church and unite all faith in Christ and remove self proclaimed churches from their fraud and thievery. The scriptures say if a thief be found it must restore 7 times.

http://drbo.org/church2.htm 

[FireSword]

Better keep them coffers flowing, coz their gonna need it to pay Gods people.

[neophyte]

FaithwithoutWorksis Dead, thank you for that most interesting site, really explains clearly about the Protestant movement along with it's many man-made conflicting churches.

[FireSword]

FaithwithoutWorksis Dead, thank you for that most interesting site, really explains clearly about the Protestant movement along with it's many man-made conflicting churches.

All churches are man made, just that some men are holier than others, or wiser  or both.

[neophyte]

 The apostles being more holier than Luther, Calvin, Knox, King Henry the Eighth or any 16th to 21st Century man or woman.

[JohnDB]

I just seen the title of this thread.

This sort of thing is unacceptable conduct.

1.1 You may discuss another individual's beliefs or religious organization but you will not harass, insult, belittle, threaten, defame or flame the individual (member or nonmember) as this is considered personal attacks in posts, PMs and any other communication within this site. This includes, but is not limited to:
a. Directly calling another member "cultist," "heretic" or "bigot" as these are personal attacks and are not conducive to civil discussion.
b. Calling famous individuals derogatory names (unless it is a well known nickname) as this may be considered defamation.
1.2 You will not directly call another member or his or her religious organization a "cult", "heretic," "demonic" or "satanic" if it holds beliefs consistent with orthodox Christianity as set forth in Rule 6. You may discuss doctrines, teachings, practices or writings of other religious organizations as long as evidence (including Scripture) is provided.

[winsome]

FaithwithoutWorksis Dead, thank you for that most interesting site, really explains clearly about the Protestant movement along with it's many man-made conflicting churches.

All churches are man made, just that some men are holier than others, or wiser  or both.

Except the Catholic Church which was founded by Christ on the apostles and prophets.

[Catholica]

I just seen the title of this thread.

This sort of thing is unacceptable conduct.

1.1 You may discuss another individual's beliefs or religious organization but you will not harass, insult, belittle, threaten, defame or flame the individual (member or nonmember) as this is considered personal attacks in posts, PMs and any other communication within this site. This includes, but is not limited to:
a. Directly calling another member "cultist," "heretic" or "bigot" as these are personal attacks and are not conducive to civil discussion.
b. Calling famous individuals derogatory names (unless it is a well known nickname) as this may be considered defamation.
1.2 You will not directly call another member or his or her religious organization a "cult", "heretic," "demonic" or "satanic" if it holds beliefs consistent with orthodox Christianity as set forth in Rule 6. You may discuss doctrines, teachings, practices or writings of other religious organizations as long as evidence (including Scripture) is provided.

We didn't complain because there were implicit quotes around the original title: "Catholics are not Christian".  It was started by a Catholic to combat the idea that Catholics are not Christian.

[JohnDB]

I'm sorry. I now understand the situation. With all the Catholic bashing of late I thought it to be something else.

[Catholica]

I'm sorry. I now understand the situation. With all the Catholic bashing of late I thought it to be something else.

No need to be sorry, I hate that sort of talk as much as the next guy, and good intentions are not the topic title was inflammatory. It's better now IMO.

[FireSword]

FaithwithoutWorksis Dead, thank you for that most interesting site, really explains clearly about the Protestant movement along with it's many man-made conflicting churches.

All churches are man made, just that some men are holier than others, or wiser  or both.

Except the Catholic Church which was founded by Christ on the apostles and prophets.

No it was pope Leo and constantine.

The RCC is similitude protestant movement that began out of the ECF. Except the protestants reformation was concerned with the authority of scripture. But the firs RCC rebels wanted to start their own church and rebel against the Church of God and the teachings of the apostles as laid down in scripture. Paul said after my departure wolves wil enter the flock, making merchandize of yo.(indulgences). A good excuse they often say is that there was no bile back then. Yet the scriptures teach of parchments, and manuscripts and Pauls letters. Jesus said have you not read the scriptures.

[neophyte]

FireSword, did Jesus leave us a Holy Bible or a Church ? Why not surprise me and give the verse or passage where Jesus said He would leave us His Holy Bible instead of a church [ "my church" ] as found in Matt.16:18. Notice singular church and that Church can also be found in Matt. 18: 15-18 in that verse we can see that it is the church not the Holy Bible Alone alone, but also the Church together.

[FireSword]

FireSword, did Jesus leave us a Holy Bible or a Church ? Why not surprise me and give the verse or passage where Jesus said He would leave us His Holy Bible instead of a church [ "my church" ] as found in Matt.16:18. Notice singular church and that Church can also be found in Matt. 18: 15-18 in that verse we can see that it is the church not the Holy Bible Alone alone, but also the Church together.

Paul said he gave some apostles, teachers, prophets for edifying of the church. Throughout time God has always had His people, the church. The denomination of the RCC was not being led by the spirit of God, so he had to send reformers, but the RCC rejected their wisdom, I don't think they even bothered to read their words. The split was inevitable. Jesus said follow me, let the dead bury their dead. Instead of wasting time challenging the corrupt leaders in the RCC Luther started his own church. He was not perfect, not like apostle Paul, but he paved the way for Christians to be set free from the rudiments of the world and tradition of men and too worship God in spirit and truth. Which resulted in many of Gods people following suite and to leave the RCC, for salvation is of the Jews and Jesus Christ, not the RCC.

[neophyte]

FireSword, I'd be careful if I was you about denying that Jesus gave His promise that he would always "protect" the "doctrinal Apostolic Traditional Teachings Luke 10:16, Matt.28:18-20, 1Tim. 3:14, John 10:16,  found only in His One True Universal Apostolic Church of Matt. 16: 15-19.
Historical records tells us that Jesus Christ established a Church—not a book—to be the foundation of the Christian faith (Matt. 16:15-18; 18:15-18; Eph. 2:20; 3:10, 20-21; 4:11-15; 1 Tim. 3:15; Heb. 13:7, 17). Christ said of his Church, "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).
The many books that comprise the Bible never tell us that they are inspired, nor do they answer many other essential questions about their canonicity. Who can or cannot be the human authors of the texts? Who wrote them in the first place? But Scripture does tell us—remarkably clearly—that Jesus established a kingdom on earth, the Church, with a hierarchy and the authority to speak for him (Luke 20:29-32; Matt. 10:40; 28:18-20). If we did not have Scripture, we would still have the Church. But without the Church, there would be no New Testament Scripture. It was members of this kingdom, the Church, who wrote Scripture, preserved its many texts, and eventually canonized it. Scripture alone could not do any of this.
The bottom line is that the truth of the Catholic Church is rooted from the foundation of Jesus and His apostles/successors. Jesus Christ is a historical person who gave his authority to his Church to teach, govern, and sanctify in his place. His Church gave us the New Testament with the authority of Christ. Reason rejects 'solar scriptura' as a self-refuting principle.
Now will you show me Biblical proof of your church/ Start by showing me where Jesus gave His Authority to a common, mere man or woman to invent a future church different from His apostolic Church as explained in Eph.2:19-20.

[mclees8]

Just a word about the origional question possed for this thread, " are Catholics Chiristian ?"

Would that be like (are Protestants Christian?). What is the criteria here for who is a Christian? What was the criteria when the church was born on the day of Pentecost? The issue here is not belonging to a certain faith group but is a question of believing In Christ and the salvation of the cross.

Today the word Christian is shrouded in confussion. It is attached to just being a good person who does good deeds. One pastor said of it like asking a person if he was a Christian, and the man answers of course Im a Christian, Im an American. When the word christian was first used it was to refer to those who believe and follow Jesus. Today we ask is a protestant or a catholic Christian? The word Christian today is some watered down word that few even know what it really means. It might be better to say I am not a Christian but a follower of Christ.

[hammer123]

If a Catholic puts their faith in Jesus instead of the Catholic Church then they are Christian.

[FireSword]

FireSword, I'd be careful if I was you about denying that Jesus gave His promise that he would always "protect" the "doctrinal Apostolic Traditional Teachings Luke 10:16, Matt.28:18-20, 1Tim. 3:14, John 10:16,  found only in His One True Universal Apostolic Church of Matt. 16: 15-19.
Historical records tells us that Jesus Christ established a Church—not a book—to be the foundation of the Christian faith (Matt. 16:15-18; 18:15-18; Eph. 2:20; 3:10, 20-21; 4:11-15; 1 Tim. 3:15; Heb. 13:7, 17). Christ said of his Church, "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).
The many books that comprise the Bible never tell us that they are inspired, nor do they answer many other essential questions about their canonicity. Who can or cannot be the human authors of the texts? Who wrote them in the first place? But Scripture does tell us—remarkably clearly—that Jesus established a kingdom on earth, the Church, with a hierarchy and the authority to speak for him (Luke 20:29-32; Matt. 10:40; 28:18-20). If we did not have Scripture, we would still have the Church. But without the Church, there would be no New Testament Scripture. It was members of this kingdom, the Church, who wrote Scripture, preserved its many texts, and eventually canonized it. Scripture alone could not do any of this.
The bottom line is that the truth of the Catholic Church is rooted from the foundation of Jesus and His apostles/successors. Jesus Christ is a historical person who gave his authority to his Church to teach, govern, and sanctify in his place. His Church gave us the New Testament with the authority of Christ. Reason rejects 'solar scriptura' as a self-refuting principle.
Now will you show me Biblical proof of your church/ Start by showing me where Jesus gave His Authority to a common, mere man or woman to invent a future church different from His apostolic Church as explained in Eph.2:19-20.

He did protect the teachings, using various denominations, including the RCC. The RCC served a purpose in those days. The teachings were protected right under the noses of the enemies, allowing this knowledge to be preserved for the reformers to act upon and expose the errors of the RCC. The protestants are purists and eager learners of the bible, while the RCC practicers stood still and missed Gods visitation, just like the Jews missed their messiah.

[neophyte]

FireSword, please show me a list of those denominations. You wrote: "He did protect the teachings, using various denominations".From the year that Jesus broke His promise, as you are trying to insinuate, to when your 'various denominations' supposedly exposed His 'true teachings, was how many years?               
Please give the year that Jesus broke His promise of protecting His Apostolic Church as found in [ proof of apostolic as in- Matt.16: 15-19. Eph. 2:19-20, Luke 10:16]. Because surely for such an historic event would have been recorded, just as the Reformation was recorded in the annals of Christian history. Documentation please ?

[FireSword]

FireSword, please show me a list of those denominations. You wrote: "He did protect the teachings, using various denominations".From the year that Jesus broke His promise, as you are trying to insinuate, to when your 'various denominations' supposedly exposed His 'true teachings, was how many years?               
Please give the year that Jesus broke His promise of protecting His Apostolic Church as found in [ proof of apostolic as in- Matt.16: 15-19. Eph. 2:19-20, Luke 10:16]. Because surely for such an historic event would have been recorded, just as the Reformation was recorded in the annals of Christian history. Documentation please ?

I don't see a braking off like you Catholics describe the protestants. Just that the RCC did not adhere to the teachings of the bible. Maybe the Coptic, eastern Orthodox, oriental orthodox, Nestorian and Assyrian church can be describes as a braking off.
Besides I do not believe in apostolic transfer. I believe God can raise up modern day apostles without needing a lineage or transfer, just like the apostle Paul.

[Lively Stone]

FireSword, please show me a list of those denominations. You wrote: "He did protect the teachings, using various denominations".From the year that Jesus broke His promise, as you are trying to insinuate, to when your 'various denominations' supposedly exposed His 'true teachings, was how many years?               
Please give the year that Jesus broke His promise of protecting His Apostolic Church as found in [ proof of apostolic as in- Matt.16: 15-19. Eph. 2:19-20, Luke 10:16]. Because surely for such an historic event would have been recorded, just as the Reformation was recorded in the annals of Christian history. Documentation please ?

I don't see a braking off like you Catholics describe the protestants. Just that the RCC did not adhere to the teachings of the bible. Maybe the Coptic, eastern Orthodox, oriental orthodox, Nestorian and Assyrian church can be describes as a braking off.
Besides I do not believe in apostolic transfer. I believe God can raise up modern day apostles without needing a lineage or transfer, just like the apostle Paul.

[neophyte]

Lively Stone, the Catholic Church never split as you say , the EOC still believes with the same doctrine as the Catholic Church.
Protestantism leans too much on mere 'traditions of men' every denomination stems from one founder's vision. As soon as two or more of these contradict each other, error is necessarily present].
Catholicism retains "apostolic recession", necessary to know what is true Christian apostalic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians.
Protestantism, due to lack of real authority and dogmatic structure, is tragically prone to accommodation to the "spirit of age and faddism.''

[winsome]

If a Catholic puts their faith in Jesus instead of the Catholic Church then they are Christian.

It's because Catholics do have faith in Jesus that they confidence in His Church.

[Lively Stone]

Lively Stone, the Catholic Church never split as you say ,

Did I say?

Catholicism retains "apostolic recession", necessary to know what is true Christian apostalic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians.
Protestantism, due to lack of real authority and dogmatic structure, is tragically prone to accommodation to the "spirit of age and faddism.''

Good thing we Christians don't have to worry about any of that religious nonsense.

[Lively Stone]

If a Catholic puts their faith in Jesus instead of the Catholic Church then they are Christian.

It's because Catholics do have faith in Jesus that they confidence in His Church.

Seeing as the Church is His people, we know that we don't put our confidence in ourselves, but only in Jesus Christ our head. He did not come to establish a religion.

[FireSword]

Lively Stone, the Catholic Church never split as you say , the EOC still believes with the same doctrine as the Catholic Church.
Protestantism leans too much on mere 'traditions of men' every denomination stems from one founder's vision. As soon as two or more of these contradict each other, error is necessarily present].
Catholicism retains "apostolic recession", necessary to know what is true Christian apostalic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians.
Protestantism, due to lack of real authority and dogmatic structure, is tragically prone to accommodation to the "spirit of age and faddism.''

When you consider the history of the protestants they have done very well indeed. I'd much rather trust protestant than a catholic. Protestant churches have created a legacy of peace and brotherly kindness, which still guides our western culture today, keeping it sane from the various evils and teachings that happen today. Catholics however have a legacy of violence, control, politics, that tells me there is something wrong at the root of Catholicsm. Their denial of milleniusm and Jews as Gods chosen people does not help their case very much.

To me the lack of structure in protestantism is both a good and bad thing. It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never. This means Catholics are stuck teaching the same old doctrines and cannot change it even if they know it is wrong and against scripture. Such a church is stuck in legalism and is in bondage.

[neophyte]

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

[Lively Stone]

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

The Catholic religion, which did not exist until many long years after Pentecost, imposes man-made doctrines on its followers, who do not have the wherewithal to discover the errors because they are not encouraged to read the word and study for themselves what the truth is. If more did, you would see more leaving. Holy Spirit enlivens and teaches what is true, and points out what is false, whereas religion lulls to sleep.

[mclees8]

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

Confusion exists in this thing we call Christianity and it was the Bishops of Rome after 325 AD who first jumped in with both feet. confusion started with the RCC. You said that the catholic church was filled with the Holy Spirit art Pentecost. The church you know as being the Catholic church did not exist at Pentecost. Why would you exclude your church as the only Ones who know Christ. Confusion started unknowingly then in 110 AD when Ignatius use it in one of his adresses. It  is just a term he chose to use and it caught on to become a term for the church. The RCC even after it fell headlong into the apostasy of worldly religion and a power of men and politics still used it and identified themselves with it, thus making the church an order of authority figures and not a people that follow Christ as it was when the church began.  Ignatius further unwittingly gave fuel to the confusion when he exspressed that the bishops were an absolute authority of the church. Igantious was not one of the twelve, but the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire. These bishops were not men of The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, but were men of their own ambitions and lust for power. They wanted to be exalted and lifted up waring royal robes and surrounded with with granduer which is the vatican. Popes sitting on thrones and men kissing their ring. They wanted to be as God upon the earth

Did confusion still follow the church after the  reformation. This is yes and no. As Fire Sword said. You must understand just as the Bishops of Rome became men not truly led of the Spirit so it is also in protestism. It is not the Protestants that gave birth to confusion but the RCC was the Mother of it. The true chuch is not an authority system of men or denominations with manifold doctrines  They are a people who are filled with the Holy Spirit who walk not after the flesh but in the Spirit of Chist who lives in them. Jesus knows them and he will have his bride just as he said the tares shall grow up with the wheat but at the harvest he will seperate them.

Do not look to denominations or religious authority systems as your salvation for it is Christ who is your salvation. Do not be in a delusion that the holy spirit follows after the intitutions but you must be born again of the spirit. Salvation is first one that is born in the heart of the one who truly loves and believes in Christ. First personally then congregationally.

Is there confusion in christianity today? Yes! It is satans great pride to confuse the church. This is why Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom

[winsome]

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

Confusion exists in this thing we call Christianity and it was the Bishops of Rome after 325 AD who first jumped in with both feet. confusion started with the RCC. You said that the catholic church was filled with the Holy Spirit art Pentecost. The church you know as being the Catholic church did not exist at Pentecost. Why would you exclude your church as the only Ones who know Christ. Confusion started unknowingly then in 110 AD when Ignatius use it in one of his adresses. It  is just a term he chose to use and it caught on to become a term for the church. The RCC even after it fell headlong into the apostasy of worldly religion and a power of men and politics still used it and identified themselves with it, thus making the church an order of authority figures and not a people that follow Christ as it was when the church began.  Ignatius further unwittingly gave fuel to the confusion when he exspressed that the bishops were an absolute authority of the church. Igantious was not one of the twelve, but the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire. These bishops were not men of The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, but were men of their own ambitions and lust for power. They wanted to be exalted and lifted up waring royal robes and surrounded with with granduer which is the vatican. Popes sitting on thrones and men kissing their ring. They wanted to be as God upon the earth

Did confusion still follow the church after the  reformation. This is yes and no. As Fire Sword said. You must understand just as the Bishops of Rome became men not truly led of the Spirit so it is also in protestism. It is not the Protestants that gave birth to confusion but the RCC was the Mother of it. The true chuch is not an authority system of men or denominations with manifold doctrines  They are a people who are filled with the Holy Spirit who walk not after the flesh but in the Spirit of Chist who lives in them. Jesus knows them and he will have his bride just as he said the tares shall grow up with the wheat but at the harvest he will seperate them.

Do not look to denominations or religious authority systems as your salvation for it is Christ who is your salvation. Do not be in a delusion that the holy spirit follows after the intitutions but you must be born again of the spirit. Salvation is first one that is born in the heart of the one who truly loves and believes in Christ. First personally then congregationally.

Is there confusion in christianity today? Yes! It is satans great pride to confuse the church. This is why Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom

Lots of opinions there mclees but no facts to back them up..

The only checkable claim you make is that ".......the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire" You got that wrong.

The Catholic Church did not become the State church until the Emperors Theodosius in the East and Gratian in the West in about 380.

[mclees8]

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

Confusion exists in this thing we call Christianity and it was the Bishops of Rome after 325 AD who first jumped in with both feet. confusion started with the RCC. You said that the catholic church was filled with the Holy Spirit art Pentecost. The church you know as being the Catholic church did not exist at Pentecost. Why would you exclude your church as the only Ones who know Christ. Confusion started unknowingly then in 110 AD when Ignatius use it in one of his adresses. It  is just a term he chose to use and it caught on to become a term for the church. The RCC even after it fell headlong into the apostasy of worldly religion and a power of men and politics still used it and identified themselves with it, thus making the church an order of authority figures and not a people that follow Christ as it was when the church began.  Ignatius further unwittingly gave fuel to the confusion when he exspressed that the bishops were an absolute authority of the church. Igantious was not one of the twelve, but the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire. These bishops were not men of The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, but were men of their own ambitions and lust for power. They wanted to be exalted and lifted up waring royal robes and surrounded with with granduer which is the vatican. Popes sitting on thrones and men kissing their ring. They wanted to be as God upon the earth

Did confusion still follow the church after the  reformation. This is yes and no. As Fire Sword said. You must understand just as the Bishops of Rome became men not truly led of the Spirit so it is also in protestism. It is not the Protestants that gave birth to confusion but the RCC was the Mother of it. The true chuch is not an authority system of men or denominations with manifold doctrines  They are a people who are filled with the Holy Spirit who walk not after the flesh but in the Spirit of Chist who lives in them. Jesus knows them and he will have his bride just as he said the tares shall grow up with the wheat but at the harvest he will seperate them.

Do not look to denominations or religious authority systems as your salvation for it is Christ who is your salvation. Do not be in a delusion that the holy spirit follows after the intitutions but you must be born again of the spirit. Salvation is first one that is born in the heart of the one who truly loves and believes in Christ. First personally then congregationally.

Is there confusion in christianity today? Yes! It is satans great pride to confuse the church. This is why Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom

Lots of opinions there mclees but no facts to back them up..

The only checkable claim you make is that ".......the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire" You got that wrong.

The Catholic Church did not become the State church until the Emperors Theodosius in the East and Gratian in the West in about 380.

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

Confusion exists in this thing we call Christianity and it was the Bishops of Rome after 325 AD who first jumped in with both feet. confusion started with the RCC. You said that the catholic church was filled with the Holy Spirit art Pentecost. The church you know as being the Catholic church did not exist at Pentecost. Why would you exclude your church as the only Ones who know Christ. Confusion started unknowingly then in 110 AD when Ignatius use it in one of his adresses. It  is just a term he chose to use and it caught on to become a term for the church. The RCC even after it fell headlong into the apostasy of worldly religion and a power of men and politics still used it and identified themselves with it, thus making the church an order of authority figures and not a people that follow Christ as it was when the church began.  Ignatius further unwittingly gave fuel to the confusion when he exspressed that the bishops were an absolute authority of the church. Igantious was not one of the twelve, but the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire. These bishops were not men of The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, but were men of their own ambitions and lust for power. They wanted to be exalted and lifted up waring royal robes and surrounded with with granduer which is the vatican. Popes sitting on thrones and men kissing their ring. They wanted to be as God upon the earth

Did confusion still follow the church after the  reformation. This is yes and no. As Fire Sword said. You must understand just as the Bishops of Rome became men not truly led of the Spirit so it is also in protestism. It is not the Protestants that gave birth to confusion but the RCC was the Mother of it. The true chuch is not an authority system of men or denominations with manifold doctrines  They are a people who are filled with the Holy Spirit who walk not after the flesh but in the Spirit of Chist who lives in them. Jesus knows them and he will have his bride just as he said the tares shall grow up with the wheat but at the harvest he will seperate them.

Do not look to denominations or religious authority systems as your salvation for it is Christ who is your salvation. Do not be in a delusion that the holy spirit follows after the intitutions but you must be born again of the spirit. Salvation is first one that is born in the heart of the one who truly loves and believes in Christ. First personally then congregationally.

Is there confusion in christianity today? Yes! It is satans great pride to confuse the church. This is why Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom

Lots of opinions there mclees but no facts to back them up..

The only checkable claim you make is that ".......the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire" You got that wrong.

The Catholic Church did not become the State church until the Emperors Theodosius in the East and Gratian in the West in about 380.

Darn i was 55 years off. and i was so sure too.  Hey ware are the funny Icons.

Since most tof the bible is spiritual in understanding that must mean the the Bibles is no evidence there fore it is wothless. Jesus said you must be born again of the spirit. Is there facts and evidences for this?


Did the Bible not say that the carnal mind cannot recieve the things of God because they a spiritually discerned. can the spiritual truths have facts and evidebces to back them up?.

[winsome]

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

Confusion exists in this thing we call Christianity and it was the Bishops of Rome after 325 AD who first jumped in with both feet. confusion started with the RCC. You said that the catholic church was filled with the Holy Spirit art Pentecost. The church you know as being the Catholic church did not exist at Pentecost. Why would you exclude your church as the only Ones who know Christ. Confusion started unknowingly then in 110 AD when Ignatius use it in one of his adresses. It  is just a term he chose to use and it caught on to become a term for the church. The RCC even after it fell headlong into the apostasy of worldly religion and a power of men and politics still used it and identified themselves with it, thus making the church an order of authority figures and not a people that follow Christ as it was when the church began.  Ignatius further unwittingly gave fuel to the confusion when he exspressed that the bishops were an absolute authority of the church. Igantious was not one of the twelve, but the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire. These bishops were not men of The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, but were men of their own ambitions and lust for power. They wanted to be exalted and lifted up waring royal robes and surrounded with with granduer which is the vatican. Popes sitting on thrones and men kissing their ring. They wanted to be as God upon the earth

Did confusion still follow the church after the  reformation. This is yes and no. As Fire Sword said. You must understand just as the Bishops of Rome became men not truly led of the Spirit so it is also in protestism. It is not the Protestants that gave birth to confusion but the RCC was the Mother of it. The true chuch is not an authority system of men or denominations with manifold doctrines  They are a people who are filled with the Holy Spirit who walk not after the flesh but in the Spirit of Chist who lives in them. Jesus knows them and he will have his bride just as he said the tares shall grow up with the wheat but at the harvest he will seperate them.

Do not look to denominations or religious authority systems as your salvation for it is Christ who is your salvation. Do not be in a delusion that the holy spirit follows after the intitutions but you must be born again of the spirit. Salvation is first one that is born in the heart of the one who truly loves and believes in Christ. First personally then congregationally.

Is there confusion in christianity today? Yes! It is satans great pride to confuse the church. This is why Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom

Lots of opinions there mclees but no facts to back them up..

The only checkable claim you make is that ".......the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire" You got that wrong.

The Catholic Church did not become the State church until the Emperors Theodosius in the East and Gratian in the West in about 380.

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

FireSword, you wrote this about your Protestantism: "It may sometimes produce man made teachings and heresies, but it also much more flexible to change and to be led by the spirit. I often hear protestants admit they had it wrong, but Catholics never."

You really mean that you have a confused "spirit " leading your Protestant man-made organization. The Catholic Church having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has never had to change a single doctrine in it's two- thousand years. You can not say that about Protestantism being that there is only dis-unity and confusion with it's ever changing doctrines and myriad of conflicting churches, numbering into the many thousands, along with all their attached off-spring cults. Talk about a confused mess, the Holy Spirit is not the inventor of confusion, the protesting spirit that is against God's Church is the 'spirit of confusion'.

Confusion exists in this thing we call Christianity and it was the Bishops of Rome after 325 AD who first jumped in with both feet. confusion started with the RCC. You said that the catholic church was filled with the Holy Spirit art Pentecost. The church you know as being the Catholic church did not exist at Pentecost. Why would you exclude your church as the only Ones who know Christ. Confusion started unknowingly then in 110 AD when Ignatius use it in one of his adresses. It  is just a term he chose to use and it caught on to become a term for the church. The RCC even after it fell headlong into the apostasy of worldly religion and a power of men and politics still used it and identified themselves with it, thus making the church an order of authority figures and not a people that follow Christ as it was when the church began.  Ignatius further unwittingly gave fuel to the confusion when he exspressed that the bishops were an absolute authority of the church. Igantious was not one of the twelve, but the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire. These bishops were not men of The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, but were men of their own ambitions and lust for power. They wanted to be exalted and lifted up waring royal robes and surrounded with with granduer which is the vatican. Popes sitting on thrones and men kissing their ring. They wanted to be as God upon the earth

Did confusion still follow the church after the  reformation. This is yes and no. As Fire Sword said. You must understand just as the Bishops of Rome became men not truly led of the Spirit so it is also in protestism. It is not the Protestants that gave birth to confusion but the RCC was the Mother of it. The true chuch is not an authority system of men or denominations with manifold doctrines  They are a people who are filled with the Holy Spirit who walk not after the flesh but in the Spirit of Chist who lives in them. Jesus knows them and he will have his bride just as he said the tares shall grow up with the wheat but at the harvest he will seperate them.

Do not look to denominations or religious authority systems as your salvation for it is Christ who is your salvation. Do not be in a delusion that the holy spirit follows after the intitutions but you must be born again of the spirit. Salvation is first one that is born in the heart of the one who truly loves and believes in Christ. First personally then congregationally.

Is there confusion in christianity today? Yes! It is satans great pride to confuse the church. This is why Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom

Lots of opinions there mclees but no facts to back them up..

The only checkable claim you make is that ".......the papacy was quick to take advantage of this when they gained favor with Constantitne to become the church of the Empire" You got that wrong.

The Catholic Church did not become the State church until the Emperors Theodosius in the East and Gratian in the West in about 380.

Darn i was 55 years off. and i was so sure too.  Hey ware are the funny Icons.

Since most tof the bible is spiritual in understanding that must mean the the Bibles is no evidence there fore it is wothless. Jesus said you must be born again of the spirit. Is there facts and evidences for this?


Did the Bible not say that the carnal mind cannot recieve the things of God because they a spiritually discerned. can the spiritual truths have facts and evidebces to back them up?.

Spiritual truths are one thing. Your personal opinions are another. Please don't confuse the two.