Do modern men have a feeling like "love" is a girlie thing?

[Cally]

I've known some of my peers/friends who've said they loved me and nothing seemed unmasculine about it. I remember one say "I'd give you a hug."

One time he also said, when I was distressed with some roommates, that he'd come out and make me happy and stuff everyone else's clothes in their toilets. 

Anyway, how do you guys feel about that? Do you ever get a feeling that speaking affection to other men just feels like crossing into female (or even sissy) territory? There are so many stereotypes that I've heard men speak about men having trouble expressing their feelings and I don't feel like I have a problem with that.

[bemark]

Well I get weird if I give a brother a hug and he hangs on for longer than 20sec.normally its the 3 second rule and the count goes like this

1 I'm 2 not 3 gay with 3 pats on the back above the belt line and below the neck.

unless you wrestle and then that's OK.

[DaveW]

Not so much these days but any talk like that years ago got you branded as "queer."

[WILDJC]

Not so much these days but any talk like that years ago got you branded as "queer."

We should greet our brothers in Christ with a Holy kiss. Nothing "girlie" about that. I can't wait to embrace my Lord and rest my head on His bosom! For He will give me rest. Amen.

John

[okiebornheavenbound]

King David didn't have any problem with that either...

How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. How are the mighty fallen, and the weapons of war perished!
(2 Samuel 1:25-27)

His friendship with Jonathan, the son of the man who was trying to kill him was embarrasing to men.

A good friend like that is rare and most men never have that kind of friendship but it is not weird, just not normal.

[Cally]

King David didn't have any problem with that either...

How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. How are the mighty fallen, and the weapons of war perished!
(2 Samuel 1:25-27)

His friendship with Jonathan, the son of the man who was trying to kill him was embarrasing to men.

A good friend like that is rare and most men never have that kind of friendship but it is not weird, just not normal.

Indeed, in general David is a great example to shatter male stereotypes. He played beautiful music and was ferocious in combat--sensitive and strong.

[Carey]

Not so much these days but any talk like that years ago got you branded as "queer."

We should greet our brothers in Christ with a Holy kiss. Nothing "girlie" about that. I can't wait to embrace my Lord and rest my head on His bosom! For He will give me rest. Amen.

John

I married into an Italian family, takes some getting used to the kissing between men, usually only have to endure it during holidays and when relatives from the old country visit.

Cally, it is very masculine to be secure in that masculinity.

[DaveW]

King David didn't have any problem with that either...

How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. How are the mighty fallen, and the weapons of war perished!
(2 Samuel 1:25-27)

"...passing the love of women..."  That phrase is used by some to "prove" that David and Johnathan had a homosexual relationship and that David was "... a man after God's own heart..."  they then go on to say this proves that God is ok with same gender sexual relatioships.

There is a sizable and growing group of congregtions that claim to be both gay and christian.

[Jon-Marc]

My dad constantly told me a lot of things like "You're useless", "You can't do anything right", and "You have nothing to say that's worth hearing." He also drilled into my head that men never say "I love you" to anyone, because it means he's weak. He also told me that men who show emotions are weak. He was a first-rate hypocrite and constantly said, "Don't do as I do; do as I say." He should have been a politician, because he was a pathological liar. The only time he treated me good was on Friday night when he was drunk. The only thing I felt when he died was relief.

[Cally]

My dad constantly told me a lot of things like "You're useless", "You can't do anything right", and "You have nothing to say that's worth hearing." He also drilled into my head that men never say "I love you" to anyone, because it means he's weak. He also told me that men who show emotions are weak. He was a first-rate hypocrite and constantly said, "Don't do as I do; do as I say." He should have been a politician, because he was a pathological liar. The only time he treated me good was on Friday night when he was drunk. The only thing I felt when he died was relief.

That's too bad Jon-Marc I'm sorry to hear that. 

My dad isn't quite a macho type guy, but I've found that all the macho types are like that; those of the Clint Eastwood fallacy school of thought that you should show no weakness because nothing should ever hurt you are inevitably like that, I've found. Indeed, I've found in the end their weakness is profound, and their inability to face the fact is their greatest weakness of all.

It's like Jesus said, we must humble ourselves like children. Children take no shame in their weakness and understand their dependency on their Father. Then the Father makes them strong! 

[DaveW]

My dad constantly told me a lot of things like "You're useless", "You can't do anything right", and "You have nothing to say that's worth hearing." He also drilled into my head that men never say "I love you" to anyone, because it means he's weak. He also told me that men who show emotions are weak.

A lot of us grew up with that.

My dad said men do not cry, so as a kid when I did something wrong (seemed everything I did was wrong to him) that I got beat with his belt.  If I cryed from the punishment, I got another beating and another beating until I could get thru the process without crying.

That was 50 years ago and I still cannot cry.

[Cally]

My dad constantly told me a lot of things like "You're useless", "You can't do anything right", and "You have nothing to say that's worth hearing." He also drilled into my head that men never say "I love you" to anyone, because it means he's weak. He also told me that men who show emotions are weak.

A lot of us grew up with that.

My dad said men do not cry, so as a kid when I did something wrong (seemed everything I did was wrong to him) that I got beat with his belt.  If I cryed from the punishment, I got another beating and another beating until I could get thru the process without crying.

That was 50 years ago and I still cannot cry.

Wouldn't that be a great legacy to put to an end?

I can think of men of God like David and Joseph who I can recall weeping. I also remember 2 Corinthians Paul spoke of trials that were simply too much for him--would it be far-fetched to suggest that he cried?

I see an oft-identified inversion of that, where men get a little too drippy and emotional (and downright effeminate). I think it's all part of the same mistake of associating detachment of emotions (and even his humanity) as being a "manly" state. I find the male biblical figures real easy to understand, I guess. I keep thinking of David being a hard thing for this culture to comprehend: a ferocious warrior who could also play beautiful and soothing music.

[DaveW]

Those are entirely cultural pre-conceptions.  There has never been a stigma in Jewish culture of men being emotional.

[Cally]

Those are entirely cultural pre-conceptions.  There has never been a stigma in Jewish culture of men being emotional.

What are you talking about, exactly? 

[DaveW]

What I am saying is that the idea of a man crying or expressing emotions (other than anger), and especially tender emotions being unmanly, gay, wimpy, weak or whatever is a product of the modern western culture (both Europe and the Americas). Most other cultures do not have that.

It certainly did not exist in the cultural backdrop of the bible authors.

[Cally]

What I am saying is that the idea of a man crying or expressing emotions (other than anger), and especially tender emotions being unmanly, gay, wimpy, weak or whatever is a product of the modern western culture (both Europe and the Americas). Most other cultures do not have that.

It certainly did not exist in the cultural backdrop of the bible authors.

Ah yes, I agree completely.

PS--Maybe I was unclear about something I said before. I wonder if, with some men who are trying to shake off that very western tradition, in so doing mistakenly take other traits along with allowing emotion that they may "accidentally" take on some "wimp" behavior, to put it one way. Sort of an overcompensation (hence the stigma regarding church men). My thoughts. I truly mean no disrespect.

[Aahil]

This thread looks like people trying to make the case that Christian men should act effeminately.  But, God's word says:

1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

How the western church has sunken when such things are no longer self-evident.

[Cally]

This thread looks like people trying to make the case that Christian men should act effeminately.  But, God's word says:

1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

How the western church has sunken when such things are no longer self-evident.

Not at all. I was trying to make the case that love and vulnerability in men is NOT effeminate behavior. In some cases, as Christian men are well-known for, does embracing traits like love, compassion, vulnerability bring along with them effeminate behavior?

[Aahil]

Not at all. I was trying to make the case that love and vulnerability in men is NOT effeminate behavior. In some cases, as Christian men are well-known for, does embracing traits like love, compassion, vulnerability bring along with them effeminate behavior?

I'm not too concerned with any one post, but with the general theme of this thread.  If you're a man and something feels "girlie" then don't do it.  Don't numb yourself out to feeling that guide you to do the right thing.

From the Red Cross website: Vulnerability in this context can be defined as the diminished capacity of an individual or group to anticipate, cope with, resist and recover from the impact of a natural or man-made hazard.   You think that's a virtue?  It's a man's job to be strong, especially for his family.

One verse says "Jesus wept", but a dear friend had died.  And, still, he probably didn't weep over the loss of the friend as much as out of a show of empathy for the death-related sorrow of Mary and other friends.   There's something poetic about that being the shortest verse in the Bible.  Jesus quickly moved on, and showed strength.

[Cally]

Not at all. I was trying to make the case that love and vulnerability in men is NOT effeminate behavior. In some cases, as Christian men are well-known for, does embracing traits like love, compassion, vulnerability bring along with them effeminate behavior?

I'm not too concerned with any one post, but with the general theme of this thread.  If you're a man and something feels "girlie" then don't do it.  Don't numb yourself out to feeling that guide you to do the right thing.

From the Red Cross website: Vulnerability in this context can be defined as the diminished capacity of an individual or group to anticipate, cope with, resist and recover from the impact of a natural or man-made hazard.   You think that's a virtue?  It's a man's job to be strong, especially for his family.

One verse says "Jesus wept", but a dear friend had died.  And, still, he probably didn't weep over the loss of the friend as much as out of a show of empathy for the death-related sorrow of Mary and other friends.   There's something poetic about that being the shortest verse in the Bible.  Jesus quickly moved on, and showed strength.

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about the troubles we experienced in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself.Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead.

[DaveW]

This thread looks like people trying to make the case that Christian men should act effeminately. 

It depends on what you mean by effeminate.  If it is anything OTHER than acting like the HULK (the green violent monster of Marvel comics) then yeah.

But, God's word says:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Legacy bad translation.  Dr Derek Prince who back before WW2 taught a post graduate class in the Greek philosophers IN GREEK at Cambridge (England) said the words for effeminate and homosexual meant to us basicly the same thing.  The one rendered 'effeminate' meant the passive partner in a homosexual relationship and the other was the more aggressive partner.

[Alan]

My father was much the same, he preached strength through the suppression of emotions and had little tolerance for tears. When in a situation where a bro-hug was required I'd simply do the one armed shoulder to shoulder thing which was cool by me....."don't want to start any bro-mance here".

Feeling vulnerable is something many Christians feel when we step out of our comfort zone. In school we do street evangelism, open prayer, and are called to speak about topics covered in class, all things that terrified me at one time.

Feeling vulnerable is just another "fear" that I have personally learned to embrace. I was and still am to some degree the last person you'd ever find approaching strangers on the street, or standing behind a pulpit.

That said if I feel a genuine need to hug a fellow classmate, or my Father-in-Law, I do it with a genuine heart rather than acting out a tradition.

The Lord has certainly softened my heart in all the right places, while also giving me courage to stand strong in those places of vulnerability and persevere.

I often tear up during worship, especially when in awe of God's awesome love.

[peterdjames]

I definitely feel that awkwardness with guy friends when there's any sort of sharing of how we feel about each other. My dad didn't portray the macho man thing but he almost never said "I love you" or anything like that.

I think it definitely effects my relationship with God. Sometimes it's awkward for me when I'm praying to him to express how I feel about him or to accept that he feels deeply emotionally for me.

[musician_for_God]

In a world increasingly filled with open homosexuals, many straight men feel it's important to be clear about their own status, in order to avoid major confusion in others.  Men have a way of relating which, when done right, can be perfectly clear to other men, while also not sounding "mushy".  It has to do, I think, with being more about deeds than words.  A man will often show kindness for another man by helping him out in some substantially way, rather than by verbalizing that kindness.  I think that's just as effective, and I don't see any deficits in such a method.  Of course, if a particular man literally CANNOT express his love for his male friends verbally whatsoever, I think he should work on that.  We should all be capable of saying what we mean, even if we normally prefer not to say it in words, but rather in actions.  I think if a man's friend clearly gets the point that he cares about him, that's what matters.  If he doesn't get that point, though, it needs to be expressed more clearly.