Oral Laws

[jdauper]

Replying to DaveW..

Well there are laws not just in the United States, but in various countries worldwide.  They vary in their specifications but nevertheless make oral and anal against the laws of the land? 

And this:
Christians are still to obey those laws in those countries or risk losing their souls. 

Now you allege that the federal courts have overturned some laws or "decriminalized" them.  But what about the Christians that were engaging in these acts before they were decriminalized, assuming decriminalizing makes it okay to disobey the laws of the land? 

And I see that you are for the federal courts superseding and overpowering the states.  I am not.  I am a conservative and believe in limited government. 

Oral  is against the laws of the land (in some US states and many other countries) and Christians are to set an example for other and shun the very appearance of evil. 

[jdauper]

By the way, it took me some 3 dozen tries to get my post to go through.  It kept saying error 404 (or something like that).  Said the page has been deleted or moved.  Then I decided to eliminate the word that sounds like SECS and then my post went through....

[chosenone]

I am very surprised that oral sex is against the law. Not sure if it is in the UK but would be suprised if it was. 

[DaveW]

By the way, it took me some 3 dozen tries to get my post to go through.  It kept saying error 404 (or something like that).  Said the page has been deleted or moved.  Then I decided to eliminate the word that sounds like SECS and then my post went through....

This is the first "second on the page" post I have seen in days.  Apparently you were posting while the problem was being fixed.  That would be why you had problems. 

[DaveW]

Well there are laws not just in the United States, but in various countries worldwide.  They vary in their specifications but nevertheless make oral and anal against the laws of the land? 

And this:
Christians are still to obey those laws in those countries or risk losing their souls. 

Obey the laws - yes.  Lose your soul?  IDK about that. 

To my understanding the only way to lose salvation is to become covenantally unfaithful to the Lord - i.e. start worshiping another "god."

Now you allege that the federal courts have overturned some laws or "decriminalized" them.  But what about the Christians that were engaging in these acts before they were decriminalized, assuming decriminalizing makes it okay to disobey the laws of the land?

The courts overturning laws or ordering states to not enforce them CHANGES the Law of the land.  It may not work that way everywhere but that is the US system we have.

And I see that you are for the federal courts superseding and overpowering the states.  I am not.  I am a conservative and believe in limited government. 

Just the federal gov't is limited?  Or limit states' governments as well?  You would have the states saying what is ok and not ok in the marriage bed?  And your idea of a "too big federal gov't" is one who tells them they can not do that?  To me that federal decision is one FOR limited gov't on all levels.

Besides, can you give me even ONE example in the bible where a province or district had laws that trumped the laws of the king or emperor? (i.e. federal level)

Oral  is against the laws of the land (in some US states and many other countries) and Christians are to set an example for other and shun the very appearance of evil.

So if it is legal in the entire US but outlawed on some remote island somewhere we must abstain? That is ridiculous.

Besides, on THIS issue we have bible.  In the Song of Solomon there are at least 4 references to oral sex (all positive); 3 for him giving it to her and one the other way.

So exactly where is this "appearance of evil?"

[jdauper]

So to cut through all the verbiage, are Christians sinning that now engage or have engaged (when or where it was against the laws of the land) in oral and/or anal?

[DaveW]

So to cut through all the verbiage, are Christians sinning that now engage or have engaged (when or where it was against the laws of the land) in oral and/or anal?

Anal is a whole other issue.  Many believe that "sodomy" in the bible refers to anal, but that is not proven.  Suffice it to say that it is against all medical advice (bad source of injury and infection) and leave it alone.

As to sin, whatever is not of faith is sin so if you believe it to be sin (or are not fully convinced it is OK with God) then to do it is a sin regardless of the laws of state.

If you are knowingly breaking a law, and it is not an issue of conflict between law of the land and biblical command, then yes it would be a sin. That is for any activity.

[jdauper]

Thank you.  It is a sin for Christian husbands and wives to engage in oral or anal if it is against the law. 

[DaveW]

JD - is there a point to what you are asking and saying?

You did not answer my question about "appearance of evil." (one of the badly misunderstood phrases in the NT)

You also did not answer my question about limited government.

Do you live in a state where there is still a law on the books against oral?

[jdauper]

JD - is there a point to what you are asking and saying?

Are you saying my questions are pointless?

You did not answer my question about "appearance of evil." (one of the badly misunderstood phrases in the NT)

I don't know what you're asking?  Please be more specific.

You also did not answer my question about limited government.

Do you believe in limited government or big government?  And how does that square with what you are teaching?  And by the way, I don't think you're being very clear.  You don't give any straightforward "yes" or "no".

Do you live in a state where there is still a law on the books against oral?

Why would that be important to this discussion?  There are and have been Christians down through the ages and in various countries where anal and oral have been against the laws of the land.  They were sinning by disobeying these laws when engaging in these activities, right? 

[DaveW]

JD - is there a point to what you are asking and saying?

Are you saying my questions are pointless?

Not at all.  I am just trying to determine what your point IS.

You did not answer my question about "appearance of evil." (one of the badly misunderstood phrases in the NT)

I don't know what you're asking?  Please be more specific.

You say to avoid the appearance of evil. Aside from the misinterpretation which says if it looks bad don't do it (which Our Lord broke many times btw) I am trying to determine if you are saying to not do this where people can see you. 

That phrase actually means to avoid evil everywhere it shows up. (real evil - not just something that looks bad)

You also did not answer my question about limited government.

Do you believe in limited government or big government?  And how does that square with what you are teaching?  And by the way, I don't think you're being very clear.  You don't give any straightforward "yes" or "no".

I am not for over bloated government nor am I for too little government.  Rulers are called God's gift and lack of proper leadership and rule is called a curse in the bible.

My question was about your statement of the federal government trampling over state rule.  Can you square that with scripture?  Where did a district or province in the bible ever have autonomy over the king or emperor?

And since the federal court ruling was for LESS governance, how that squares with bigger government.

Do you live in a state where there is still a law on the books against oral?

Why would that be important to this discussion?  There are and have been Christians down through the ages and in various countries where anal and oral have been against the laws of the land.

Because it sounds like you are trying to make a case that it is sinful even if it is legal here and now because somewhere at some time it was illegal.

They were sinning by disobeying these laws when engaging in these activities, right?

It is neither my or your place to judge someone else's sin.

[DaveW]

This is what I found as the list of states where OS is illegal:

Alabama,
Arizona,
Arkansas
Florida,
Idaho,
Kansas,
Louisiana,
Massachusetts,
Minnesota,
Mississippi,
Georgia,
North and South Carolina,
Oklahoma,
Oregon,
Rhode Island,
Utah,
Virginia
Washington D.C.

However these were all declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 2003 in  Lawrence v. Texas.

[FireSword]

I am very surprised that oral sex is against the law. Not sure if it is in the UK but would be suprised if it was.

I'ts usually prostitutes who do this type of thing. The laws are against prostitution.

[chosenone]

I am very surprised that oral sex is against the law. Not sure if it is in the UK but would be suprised if it was.

I'ts usually prostitutes who do this type of thing. The laws are against prostitution.

OK. Of course it is a law that would be impossible to implement anyway, unless there was a policeman in every bedroom.

[jdauper]

DaveW, aren't you and Choosen into the whole "America is a Christian Nation", the Noble Lie, Obey the Laws of the Land mantra, ad nauseum?   It's a simple yes or no question. 

(By the way, for those of you that don't know what the concept of the Noble Lie is, look it up on Wikipedia.  It is something that the US has been involved in many times over.  One might make the argument that it is national policy.)

Having said that, married Christians, according to Choosen and DaveW have been sinning all around the world at various times when certain sex acts were against the law.   Thus they believe that the laws of God on marriage are superseded my man's government.  That is big government, Federalism at its full fruition. 

If we were to get into a discussion on marriages licenses, then these two posters would also most likely say that married couples are sinning if they choose not to get a license, but instead just say their vows before God and God alone. 

Now I'm going to hit the submit button and hopefully I don't get the 404 error message the first time I hit "post".  First I'll copy and paste my comments onto a notepad so that it is saved and if I have to try one thousand time, I will get my comments posted on here.  Your censorship blocks won't work on me.  It only motivates me more. 


Peace out and you two have a wonderful day.  (^_^)

[DaveW]

DaveW, aren't you and Choosen into the whole "America is a Christian Nation", the Noble Lie, Obey the Laws of the Land mantra, ad nauseum?   It's a simple yes or no question.

No it is not a simple yes or no question because there are many parts you have in there.

First, Chosen is not from the US, she is from England which renders her opinion on whether the us is Christian or not irrelevant.  As to her opinion on the other issues I will let her answer that.

Second, "America" is not a country it is a pair of continents.  I live in the US which is on the North American continent.

Third, I do not believe there has EVER been a "Christian nation" including the US.  The only country ever established by God as a biblical nation was ancient Israel.

I had to look up your "noble lie" idea and it sounds a lot like Jefferson's "the masses are asses" quote which led to such strange institutions in the US as the electoral college.  No I do not ascribe to that mentality.

On obeying the laws of the land, I see the bible as clear on that.  It was promoted by Jesus Peter and Paul. "Render unto Caesar" [Matthew 22:21] firmly establishes IN SCRIPTURE the right of a government to expect its citizens to pay taxes.  "Obey the governing authorities" [Romans 13:1] was written when Nero was in power.   The whole "we should obey God rather than men" [Acts 5:29] ONLY comes into play when the "men" are telling you to do something that directly violates scripture.

If we were to get into a discussion on marriages licenses, then these two posters would also most likely say that married couples are sinning if they choose not to get a license, but instead just say their vows before God and God alone.

I cannot speak for Chosenone but you got that right about me.  Having a valid marriage license IS the law here in the US. Therefore any sexual relationship here NOT covered by a valid marriage license is sin. PERIOD.  That in no way violates ANY command of scripture.  Fornication is strictly forbidden in scripture for everyone.

Ya know, I cannot figure you out.  You make out that thousands of properly married christians are sinning by doing a  sex act forbidden by the state but then you turn around and seem to be promoting that to "get married" without the state is NOT sin.  You are not being consistant.

[apostle]

I am very surprised that oral sex is against the law. Not sure if it is in the UK but would be suprised if it was.

I'ts usually prostitutes who do this type of thing.

What?  I either misread this or I time-slipped back into the 1890's...

[chosenone]

DaveW, aren't you and Choosen into the whole "America is a Christian Nation", the Noble Lie, Obey the Laws of the Land mantra, ad nauseum?   It's a simple yes or no question. 

(By the way, for those of you that don't know what the concept of the Noble Lie is, look it up on Wikipedia.  It is something that the US has been involved in many times over.  One might make the argument that it is national policy.)

Having said that, married Christians, according to Choosen and DaveW have been sinning all around the world at various times when certain sex acts were against the law.   Thus they believe that the laws of God on marriage are superseded my man's government.  That is big government, Federalism at its full fruition. 

If we were to get into a discussion on marriages licenses, then these two posters would also most likely say that married couples are sinning if they choose not to get a license, but instead just say their vows before God and God alone. 

Now I'm going to hit the submit button and hopefully I don't get the 404 error message the first time I hit "post".  First I'll copy and paste my comments onto a notepad so that it is saved and if I have to try one thousand time, I will get my comments posted on here.  Your censorship blocks won't work on me.  It only motivates me more. 


Peace out and you two have a wonderful day.  (^_^)

Ifyou arent legally married according to the laws of the country you live in, you arent married. Its really not hard, just get married legally then you are married. Simple.

As Dave said I am not American.

God says nothing against oral sex, in fact The Song of Songs has clear references to it.

[chosenone]

I am very surprised that oral sex is against the law. Not sure if it is in the UK but would be suprised if it was.

I'ts usually prostitutes who do this type of thing. The laws are against prostitution.

Is it? I am sure they do but I am also sure that many others who arent prostitiutes do it as well.
Have you read Song of Songs? Its very erotic, and includes references to oral sex.

[DaveW]

I'ts usually prostitutes who do this type of thing. The laws are against prostitution.

And they do regular intercourse as well.  Your point?

Interesting side note on this:

The idea of lipstick came about from ancient mideast prostitutes who "specialized" in giving oral and wanted to make their lips look more like "down there" as advertizing.

[chosenone]

I'ts usually prostitutes who do this type of thing. The laws are against prostitution.

And they do regular intercourse as well.  Your point?

Interesting side note on this:

The idea of lipstick came about from ancient mideast prostitutes who "specialized" in giving oral and wanted to make their lips look more like "down there" as advertizing.

  Wow thats interesting Dave. Maybe thats why I stay away from make up, it does sexualise the face.

[Mog19]

I have no idea if the lipstick thing is true or not. However I CAN say is that no amount of lipstick could make a face look like "down there". 

I don't know what to make of the whole, bible law verses the law of the land.
The bible says OS is fine, but in some parts of the world it's not.
The bible says homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't be done, but the law of some lands now say that it's fine.
Personally, I stick with what GOD says.  The world is a corrupt place. I will not take instruction from corruption. I will take instruction from our father in heaven who gave us proper laws.

[RoninJedi]

I have no idea if the lipstick thing is true or not. However I CAN say is that no amount of lipstick could make a face look like "down there". 

I don't know what to make of the whole, bible law verses the law of the land.
The bible says OS is fine, but in some parts of the world it's not.
The bible says homosexuality is wrong and shouldn't be done, but the law of some lands now say that it's fine.
Personally, I stick with what GOD says.  The world is a corrupt place. I will not take instruction from corruption. I will take instruction from our father in heaven who gave us proper laws.

I agree.  A man and a woman (within the context of marriage) are free to do whatever they want in the bedroom as long as

1. - It is only the two of them.
2. - Both are willing.  That means no one's guilted into doing something they don't want to do.  "If you love me, you'll do it," is not a phrase that flies in a Christian household.

It's that simple.  Be it soft, slow, wild, crazy, whatever.  Sex was God's gift to a married couple as an expression of their affection.  As long as the above criteria are met, have fun and enjoy yourselves.