The Fallible Assumption of Mary

[Selene]

There is also no "particular plan" for Mary in the plan of salvation. Nowhere in the Bible is she given a position in that plan.
Absolutely nowhere is she even slightly mentioned as being such.
So there, assumption as well.

Really? And if she had said no to being the Mother of Jesus?

Ridiculous. Are you really suggesting that God's plan of redemption depended on Mary's willingness to accept the offer?
Like when the angel appeared to Mary, all other angels were crossing their fingers wishing: "please let her say yes"...

But now the INTERESTING part of your statement.
You imply that it would have been possible for Mary to have said "no".
If that is indeed the case, then God would not have been certain of Mary's choice...hence Mary could have never been without sin.
If Mary's decision was uncertain beforehand, then her birth without original sin would also have been uncertain.

Yes, God's plan of salvation depended on Mary saying "yes" because God does not FORCE anyone to say "yes."  Nevertheless, God already knew Mary's choice because He knows everything. 

[AVZ]

There is also no "particular plan" for Mary in the plan of salvation. Nowhere in the Bible is she given a position in that plan.
Absolutely nowhere is she even slightly mentioned as being such.
So there, assumption as well.

Really? And if she had said no to being the Mother of Jesus?

Ridiculous. Are you really suggesting that God's plan of redemption depended on Mary's willingness to accept the offer?
Like when the angel appeared to Mary, all other angels were crossing their fingers wishing: "please let her say yes"...

But now the INTERESTING part of your statement.
You imply that it would have been possible for Mary to have said "no".
If that is indeed the case, then God would not have been certain of Mary's choice...hence Mary could have never been without sin.
If Mary's decision was uncertain beforehand, then her birth without original sin would also have been uncertain.

Yes, God's plan of salvation depended on Mary saying "yes" because God does not FORCE anyone to say "yes."  Nevertheless, God already knew Mary's choice because He knows everything. 

Are you serious?
God has forced a lot of people to do His will.

I admit that in Mary's case there was no force used, but you now really have a problem.

If Mary was without original sin and had to reamin without sin, then God purposely made her differently from other people at her birth.
If Mary was created differently and purposely without sin, then Mary could never had said "no" because saying "no" would have been a sin.
Hence, you could say that due to her "special creation" and inability to reject, Mary was forced into the position of being Jesus' mother.

So, the question if Mary could have said "no" is moot.

Now, if Mary could not sin, then Mary was not fully human, because even Adam and Eve were created with at least the possibility to sin.
If Jesus was born from Mary, then He never could have inherited His humanity from her.

On a second note: If Mary was created without original sin, and she never sinned in her life...obviously she would not need a redeemer.

[Hehealedme]

1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

[Hehealedme]

Mary and Joseph offered up a sin offering when they presented Jesus to the temple. Luke 2:22-24
So why would Mary need to offer up a sin offering if she was sinless?
Wouldn't the act of making a sin offering when there is no sin mock God?

[Hehealedme]

We are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, Mary said herself that her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

[Mazzii]

It will greatly bless you. These will all uplift your spirit.


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[Selene]

Mary and Joseph offered up a sin offering when they presented Jesus to the temple. Luke 2:22-24
So why would Mary need to offer up a sin offering if she was sinless?
Wouldn't the act of making a sin offering when there is no sin mock God?

Mary was following Jewish law, which states that after giving birth to a male, the woman must give up a sin offering for purification.  Luke is saying that Mary followed Jewish law.  It does not say that she sinned.....unless you think that giving birth is a sin?? 

[AVZ]

Mary and Joseph offered up a sin offering when they presented Jesus to the temple. Luke 2:22-24
So why would Mary need to offer up a sin offering if she was sinless?
Wouldn't the act of making a sin offering when there is no sin mock God?

Mary was following Jewish law, which states that after giving birth to a male, the woman must give up a sin offering for purification.  Luke is saying that Mary followed Jewish law.  It does not say that she sinned.....unless you think that giving birth is a sin?? 

Luke doesnt say anything about the motivations of Mary to bring the offering. He is simply making an observation.

Now, if the offering has the purpose of being purified, you could ask the question how it is that a sin-less "vessel" who gave birth to Jesus could possibly have become impure.
Also, if indeed Mary was sin-less, this law would have never implied.

The law says "Thou shall not kill", but when God commands the Isrealites to kill the natives in Canaan...that was not sin.
Then when the yearly sin offering was made, the killings by Gods command obviously did not need to be asked forgiveness for.

Its really unbelievable how many theoligical tricks have to be performed to turn something simple into complicated Catholic doctrine.
Do you really think that Luke, if Mary would have gone for any higher reason, would not have told us so?

[neophyte]

 AVZ,Christ's death on the cross was an eternal event; as such, its graces could reach back in time, as well as forward. This means that the grace that Christ would win on Calvary could be applied to Mary in anticipation of Calvary. This was how she was saved from any stain of sin, both original and actual. Medieval theologians created the analogy of two people approaching a pit. If the first falls in and is rescued from the pit, and the second is prevented from falling into the pit, both are saved, and it even could be said that the one whose fall was prevented is saved far more completely than the one who was raised from the pit. 

[winsome]

Mary and Joseph offered up a sin offering when they presented Jesus to the temple. Luke 2:22-24
So why would Mary need to offer up a sin offering if she was sinless?
Wouldn't the act of making a sin offering when there is no sin mock God?

Mary was following Jewish law, which states that after giving birth to a male, the woman must give up a sin offering for purification.  Luke is saying that Mary followed Jewish law.  It does not say that she sinned.....unless you think that giving birth is a sin?? 

Luke doesnt say anything about the motivations of Mary to bring the offering. He is simply making an observation.

Yes he does
And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses (Lv 12:2-8), they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord")  and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons." (Ex 13:-12, 13)

They were simply doing what the Law prescribed and it was NOT a sin offering.

Now, if the offering has the purpose of being purified, you could ask the question how it is that a sin-less "vessel" who gave birth to Jesus could possibly have become impure.
Also, if indeed Mary was sin-less, this law would have never implied.

It's ritual impurity not sinfulness

The law says "Thou shall not kill", but when God commands the Isrealites to kill the natives in Canaan...that was not sin.
Then when the yearly sin offering was made, the killings by Gods command obviously did not need to be asked forgiveness for.

How is this relevant?

Its really unbelievable how many theoligical tricks have to be performed to turn something simple into complicated Catholic doctrine.
Do you really think that Luke, if Mary would have gone for any higher reason, would not have told us so?

He did tell us the reason.

[/quote]

[Alan]

Actually, Alan, the Bible itself says the church is the pillar and foundation of the church (1 Tim 3:15)

If that is true there would be no denominational conflict in existence today, therefore the Church itself is indeed worthy of scrutiny by it's congregation. None of us want to be lead astray.

Not denying scripture but the "Church" of today differs from the Church of yore.

[trifecta]

Firstly, greetings Alan we haven't meet.

If that is true there would be no denominational conflict in existence today, therefore the Church itself is indeed worthy of scrutiny by it's congregation.

There has always been conflict within the church; we read about it in the New Testament.  We have the witness of the Church to decide issues, not a vote of the congregation.  See the 7 ecumenical councils.

None of us want to be lead astray.

That's why we have the church!  as the scripture quote says.

Not denying scripture but the "Church" of today differs from the Church of yore.

But Jesus also said the gates of hell would not prevail against that church.

Which church is that?  It has to be one from the beginning.  That leaves the RCC, Orthodox, and Coptic.

[AVZ]

Firstly, greetings Alan we haven't meet.

If that is true there would be no denominational conflict in existence today, therefore the Church itself is indeed worthy of scrutiny by it's congregation.

There has always been conflict within the church; we read about it in the New Testament.  We have the witness of the Church to decide issues, not a vote of the congregation.  See the 7 ecumenical councils.

None of us want to be lead astray.

That's why we have the church!  as the scripture quote says.

Not denying scripture but the "Church" of today differs from the Church of yore.

But Jesus also said the gates of hell would not prevail against that church.

Which church is that?  It has to be one from the beginning.  That leaves the RCC, Orthodox, and Coptic.

Sll churches are from the beginning. All of us have the same roots.

[mclees8]

 The church is not just the organized order or priestly system.  The church is first established in the hearts of the believers  and the rock of truth we all stand on is Jesus. None can take us from His hand. What is in the heart no one can take, and the gates of hell wil not prevail against. The establishmen can and will be destroyed, but those who truly love Christ are his church and will stand forever in eternity

[neophyte]

Jesus established a church so as to make sure that everybody "would be on the same page"when it came to the understanding and applying His Teachings correctly. So how did Jesus accomplish this? Jesus accomplished this by selecting twelve apostles and Teaching them everything necessary for entering heaven if one chooses to enter a blissfull eternity with our Savior Jesus and His heavenly family.
Jesus established only "One"Church as per bible;  "Upon this rock I will build "MY CHURCH" [ Matt.16:18 ]" There shall be "ONE FOLD " and one shepherd " [ John 10: 16 ]

The apostles were Christ's nucleus for His earthly church as per bible, and why wouldn't they be, afterall Jesus taught them "everything" " Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" [ Matt.28:20 ]. and ''As the  Father has sent me, I also send you " [ John 20:21 ]

"On behalf of Christ, therefore, we are acting as ambassadors, God, as it were, appealing through us" [ 2nd Cor.5:20 ]

There is only One Church that has these qualities of teaching the Apostolic Teaching Method as per Jesus. Jesus was emphatic when He told His Apostles this, " He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me" [ Luke 10:16 ]

So where do you find this "church" and what was it called by early Christians ?
Because His church is for all people of all nations and all times and teaches all the doctrines of Jesus via His teaching apostles together with the Holy Bible with it's one true interpretation His church is Catholic ,[ Greek meanig Universal ] embracing all universal people.
We can still find and recognize His Church in modern times, because it must be the only Church that can trace itself back with a direct line to the Apostles in its history and authority; it being universal and holy [ because it's from Jesus ] and it has unity in doctrinal teaching, it cannot teach moral or doctrinal error and can never be destroyed. [ Matt.16;15-19 ]

" Yet not for these only do I pray, but for those also who through their word are to believe in me , that all may be one, even as thou, Father, in me and I in thee; that they also may be one in us [ John 17:20-21 ]

"Preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace: one body and one Spirit, even as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all' [ Eph. 4;3-6 ]

"Everyhigh priest takes from among men is appointed for men in the things pertaining to God, and that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins" [ Hebrews 5:1 ].

Only a Apostle or one of their future bishops can ordain and keep the succession going forward-
" For this reason I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst appoint prespyters in every city, as I myself directed thee to do " [ Titus 1; 5 ]

On calling no church clergy 'father',
" I write these things not to put you to shame, but to admonish you as my children. For although you have ten thousand tuturs in Christ, yet you have not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, though the gospel, did I beget you" [ 1 Cor. 4:14 ] Abraham was called father as per OT.

" The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed" [ Daniel 2:44 ]
" And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them [ Ezechiel 34: 23 ]
" Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Feed my lambs... feed my sheep... feed my sheep" [ John 21: 15-17 ].

In the year 110 A.D. the name Catholic was first discovered in writing and recorded for Jesus' Church by St. Ignatius of Antioch.

[trifecta]

Interesting replies, brothers.     I think I understand where you are coming from, because I was once a Protestant.

It's not all that complicated, but you all are making it so to justify your understanding of the church.

Firstly, no AVZ - only 3 major churches were from the beginning.  You can argue, I guess, that Protestant churches (at least some of them) had the same spirit as the early church--but there are other churches that clearly do not -- JW, Mormons, even the Jewish (do we not share the same roots?).   Therefore, you must prove that your churches that do not physically go back to the beginning are like the original church, having the same spiritual roots as the early church.  Reformationalist thinking is not how people in a Semitic society thought; so, good luck with that. (See next paragraph).

Mcclees, no, the church is  not first established in the individual's heart.  Again, this is not how semitic people think --they are a group-oriented culture, something hard for westerners to understand.  Church, by definition, is a gathering--not an "inner feeling" or even individual belief system.  This may be the beginning of a conversion process, but it is not church.

A main of the purpose of the church is to establish the truth - just as Paul says in 1 Tim 3:15.  And the gates of hell shall not prevail against that-- it has nothing to do with an individual's heart.  That is not what the scripture is saying.

You all seem to be replacing the church with scripture but first, the NT doesn't say you can do that anywhere (but indeed says the church is the one that gives the truth--after all, they gave us the NT).   Secondly, your line of reasoning shows why we need some body to interpret the scriptures.   Your interpretations have taken the teeth out of 1 Tim 3:15, and your interpretation of word "church" goes against the meaning of the word itself (a gathering).  You yourself are placing a framework around how we are to interpret scripture.  Don't feel bad, we all do that--but someone has to be right.  The church is the body that provides that framework  for us - otherwise, we'd have thousands of interpretations of the NT (oh yeah, like we do now).

Don't feel too bad--the Protestant fathers had a doosy of a time trying to justify how a break-off faction of the historic church (RCC) can still claim to be that church that Jesus established.  The best they could come up with is sola scriptura, an idea that scripture itself doesn't attest to.

Gentlemen, once you read more about church history, you will see my point more clearly.

Neophyte, look at your QA about the early church, keeping in mind that the actual early church had no compiled
NT to guide them.  That wouldn't happen for 400 plus years.

Thanks for reading.

[mclees8]

The problem here is the institutonalizing of the church. You my not see it like that but clearly there is a distorted idea of the churchtoday as an order of hierarchy and priests. You make the church a thing not a people. Leadership is just a part of church.

I say to you strongly No sir! Salvation first comes by personal confession to take Jesus as our Lord. The Holy Spirit is established in our hearts and no pope will stand with us on judgment day.  You are very wrong that the church is not first established in the heart.

[trifecta]

Dear Mclees,

You are equating church with salvation, although the church leads to salvation.   The church, at minimum, is a gathering of people.  A belief in the heart is a gathering of nothing. I am not saying it isn't important.  I am saying it is not church. 

You are indeed correct in that membership in the church does not mean you will get saved.  This is what the parable of the wheat and tares is about.  We are all accountable for our individual actions. 

[AVZ]

Trifecta,

One way or another, all Christian churches have the same physical origin. And they all end with Jesus.
It is similar to the fact that all human beings have their origin in Adam and Eve.

Jesus placed the task to spread the Gospel in the hands of the disciples and apostles, and they subsequently placed that responsibility in the hands of others.
It's only the RCC that claims to have soul "ownership" of this expansion.
Imagine some day I will be able to name my full lineage back to Adam, and since I can I therefore claim that the whole of humanity has to listen to me because I can name my roots.

Now, lineage is something completely different than "being in line with".
Yes, sure the RCC finds her origin in Jesus and the apostles...but that doesn't mean the teachings of the RCC are in line with Jesus and the apostles.
If you open the New Testament you can read how many churches which have a first generation lineage to the apostles are being flamed for not being in line with the Gospel?

Interestingly you mention that only 3 major churches were from the beginning, however if you read Revelation you see that there were at least 7.
And all of them are called churches, even though they all differ:

(1) Ephesus (Revelation 2:1-7) - the church that had forsaken its first love (2:4).
(2) Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11) - the church that would suffer persecution (2:10).
(3) Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-17) - the church that needed to repent (2:16).
(4) Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29) - the church that had a false prophetess (2:20).
(5) Sardis (Revelation 3:1-6) - the church that had fallen asleep (3:2).
(6) Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13) - the church that had endured patiently (3:10).
(7) Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) - the church with the lukewarm faith (3:16).

That being said, you also expect me to prove that churches have the same spiritual roots as the "original" churches.
With all due respect, but even the RCC doesn't do that.
The RCC claims authority through papal inheritance, which is a physical event. Claiming that spiritual inheritance comes with physical inheritance definitely is a no-brainer as there were many popes that were definitely not spiritually guided, yet they are counted in the physical lineage.

As I said before, the RCC makes everything so unbelievably complicated. No wonder you need one person to dictate to everybody else what to believe.

[mclees8]

Dear Mclees,

You are equating church with salvation, although the church leads to salvation.   The church, at minimum, is a gathering of people.  A belief in the heart is a gathering of nothing. I am not saying it isn't important.  I am saying it is not church. 

You are indeed correct in that membership in the church does not mean you will get saved.  This is what the parable of the wheat and tares is about.  We are all accountable for our individual actions. 

Not quite. it is the gospel message that leads to salvation, and salvation makes us of the family of God. In other words brings us into the church. I did not say a gathering in the heart, but the holy spirit is established in the heart, without which you would not be truly His bride. Not all in the church are His bride. We are first the church by our confession of Christ and then the church congregationally.

Paul states three times " know you not ye are the Temple and the spirit of God dwells with in you "

This makes each believer a church walking. You have ignored the institutionlizing of the church which the papacy made  it a hierarchy of bishops and priests doing ritual, and a building with stained glass windows and chiors with robes. We say today I am going to church which is down the street, but I say we are the church and the place we go is where we gather

What Jesus has put in our hearts makes us HIs church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. No not even death. Your church of buildings and hierarchies will be destroyed but he bride will live with Christ forever

[Stucky]

Trifecta,

One way or another, all Christian churches have the same physical origin. And they all end with Jesus.
It is similar to the fact that all human beings have their origin in Adam and Eve.

Jesus placed the task to spread the Gospel in the hands of the disciples and apostles, and they subsequently placed that responsibility in the hands of others.
It's only the RCC that claims to have soul "ownership" of this expansion.
Imagine some day I will be able to name my full lineage back to Adam, and since I can I therefore claim that the whole of humanity has to listen to me because I can name my roots.

Now, lineage is something completely different than "being in line with".
Yes, sure the RCC finds her origin in Jesus and the apostles...but that doesn't mean the teachings of the RCC are in line with Jesus and the apostles.
If you open the New Testament you can read how many churches which have a first generation lineage to the apostles are being flamed for not being in line with the Gospel?

Interestingly you mention that only 3 major churches were from the beginning, however if you read Revelation you see that there were at least 7.
And all of them are called churches, even though they all differ:

(1) Ephesus (Revelation 2:1-7) - the church that had forsaken its first love (2:4).
(2) Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11) - the church that would suffer persecution (2:10).
(3) Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-17) - the church that needed to repent (2:16).
(4) Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29) - the church that had a false prophetess (2:20).
(5) Sardis (Revelation 3:1-6) - the church that had fallen asleep (3:2).
(6) Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13) - the church that had endured patiently (3:10).
(7) Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) - the church with the lukewarm faith (3:16).

That being said, you also expect me to prove that churches have the same spiritual roots as the "original" churches.
With all due respect, but even the RCC doesn't do that.
The RCC claims authority through papal inheritance, which is a physical event. Claiming that spiritual inheritance comes with physical inheritance definitely is a no-brainer as there were many popes that were definitely not spiritually guided, yet they are counted in the physical lineage.

As I said before, the RCC makes everything so unbelievably complicated. No wonder you need one person to dictate to everybody else what to believe.

       

[Hehealedme]

If they shut down the churches
Where would you go
If they melted all the stain glass windows
Replaced every sanctuary with a condo
Where would you go
Where would you go

We are a cathedral made of people
In a Kingdom that the eye can't see
We're a house, we are the bride
Where God's Spirit lives inside
and nothing ever can stand against her

If they burned all the bibles what would you know
If they tore your marked-up pages how would you grow
And declared your devotion to be criminal
What would you know?
What would you know?

We are a cathedral made of people
In a Kingdom that the eye can't see
We're a house, we are the bride
Where God's Spirit lives inside
and nothing ever can stand against her

We are a cathedral made of people
In a Kingdom that the eye can't see
We're a house, we are the bride
Where God's Spirit lives inside
and nothing ever can stand against her

If they throw you in prison what will you do?
When they hate you for the things
that you know are true
they can tare down this temple
But they can't touch you

We are a cathedral made of people
In a Kingdom that the eye can't see
We're a house, we are the bride
Where God's Spirit lives inside

We are a cathedral made of people
In a Kingdom that the eye can't see
We're a house, we are the bride
Where God's Spirit lives inside
and nothing ever can stand against her

Nothing ever can stand against her
Nothing ever can stand against her
Nothing ever can stand against her
Nothing ever can stand against her


Cathedral Made Of People   by Downhere

[Stucky]

Rivard,

Are you and Imelda promoting videos on here to sell them?

[Catholica]

If they shut down the churches
Where would you go
If they melted all the stain glass windows
Replaced every sanctuary with a condo
Where would you go
Where would you go

In countries where the government has tried to put a stop to the Catholic mass, the Church continues underground, and priests would be around.  The Catholic mass can be held anywhere.

We are a cathedral made of people
In a Kingdom that the eye can't see
We're a house, we are the bride
Where God's Spirit lives inside
and nothing ever can stand against her

Only partially true.  We are a kingdom that is both visible and invisible.  We are a Church made up of all the people of God WITH a visible hierarchy as well.  But that's not how Protestants view it.  The lyrics of a Protestant song are unlikely to convince any faithful Catholic otherwise.

If they burned all the bibles what would you know
If they tore your marked-up pages how would you grow
And declared your devotion to be criminal
What would you know?
What would you know?

That would be a difficult situation.  I'm not quite sure what is being suggested here.  I'm guessing that the song is saying that the Holy Spirit is privately inspiring everyone from the inside.  It's fairly naive.  Look at all the confusion even with the Bible to help you.

If they throw you in prison what will you do?
When they hate you for the things
that you know are true
they can tare down this temple
But they can't touch you

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

[FireSword]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

[Ladonia]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

[AVZ]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

Correction: Jesus followed rituals as they were commanded in the Old Testament.
But He however did strongly agitate against rituals and regulations added by religious authorities.

[Ladonia]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

Correction: Jesus followed rituals as they were commanded in the Old Testament.
But He however did strongly agitate against rituals and regulations added by religious authorities.

A ritual is a ritual. It's either good or bad. There are New Testament rituals as well. I bet you follow rituals. Do you pray every day?  Before meals? Go to services every week perhaps? And in those services, follow the same form every week?

Look, any ritual or regulation added by the proper religious authorities (the Church) who were given said power by Jesus himself, is , well, kosher. If certain rituals were good enough for Our Lord, then certain rituals are good enough for us and in no way violate anything.

[AVZ]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

Correction: Jesus followed rituals as they were commanded in the Old Testament.
But He however did strongly agitate against rituals and regulations added by religious authorities.

A ritual is a ritual. It's either good or bad. There are New Testament rituals as well. I bet you follow rituals. Do you pray every day?  Before meals? Go to services every week perhaps? And in those services, follow the same form every week?

Look, any ritual or regulation added by the proper religious authorities (the Church) who were given said power by Jesus himself, is , well, kosher. If certain rituals were good enough for Our Lord, then certain rituals are good enough for us and in no way violate anything.

And how do you determine is a ritual is good or bad?

[neophyte]

AVZ, Christian Catholicism is the completion of Judaism and the rituals used by Jesus taught to His apostles are from God to His Church [ Jewish apostles, authorative see Luke 10;16,= Apostolic Church ] so The Old Testament is full of references to ritual washing. Of particular note are Elisha's instructions to Naaman in 2 Kings 5 to ritually wash himself in the Jordan as a cure for leprosy, a biblical symbol of sinfulness. It is also a noteworthy part of Jewish tradition that the Jewish people from ancient times to the present have had ritual baths known as mikvahs. In fact, ancient mikvah sites have been found by archaeologists in the Holy Land. The mikvah was commanded under Jewish law to cleanse a person of ritual impurity (e.g., a woman would go to a mikvah after her period of ritual impurity during and after menstruation). So it is likely that the people to whom John the Baptist preached had a good idea of what he was referring to when he instructed them to be cleansed of their sins in the Jordan, which, because it is a natural body of water, could itself have possibly been used as a mikvah.

[Ladonia]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

Correction: Jesus followed rituals as they were commanded in the Old Testament.
But He however did strongly agitate against rituals and regulations added by religious authorities.

A ritual is a ritual. It's either good or bad. There are New Testament rituals as well. I bet you follow rituals. Do you pray every day?  Before meals? Go to services every week perhaps? And in those services, follow the same form every week?

Look, any ritual or regulation added by the proper religious authorities (the Church) who were given said power by Jesus himself, is , well, kosher. If certain rituals were good enough for Our Lord, then certain rituals are good enough for us and in no way violate anything.

And how do you determine is a ritual is good or bad?

I leave the determination to God's Holy Church and as a faithful adherant accept the two thousand years of study it has done on all the relevant issues in a spirit of humility. I have full confidence that the Holy Spirit is indeed the guiding force behind it all.

[FireSword]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

I am simply explaining the cover. The saying is , never judge a book by it's cover, but  people do anyway.

The cover of catholicism is basically a lot of old men wearing strange outfits, in big buildings, walking up and down at a pedestrian pace, uttering gibberish ,or Latin, then laying off smoke - incense, this process takes up most of the Catholic church service, then 2 mins speech about the great example Jesus is.
For a Catholic he must go outside the church to learn about Jesus and bible teachings, in their spare time.

A protestant church however dedicates most of the time on teaching the word of God and praising Jesus. Anyone can see instantly that this church loves Jesus and is dedicated to teaching the flock, the life of Jesus. A protestant can learn about Jesus in Church and gives them the tools to be empowered as a Holy Ghost filled world changer.

The world thinks the RCC is just a big ceremony, no different than the ceremony of the Olympics. It has no reason to hate it, they might think it's boring or colorful

But the world sees the protestant church, loving Jesus and doing miracles, they think wow, Jesus could actually be real, this threatens their world view.

[AVZ]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

Correction: Jesus followed rituals as they were commanded in the Old Testament.
But He however did strongly agitate against rituals and regulations added by religious authorities.

A ritual is a ritual. It's either good or bad. There are New Testament rituals as well. I bet you follow rituals. Do you pray every day?  Before meals? Go to services every week perhaps? And in those services, follow the same form every week?

Look, any ritual or regulation added by the proper religious authorities (the Church) who were given said power by Jesus himself, is , well, kosher. If certain rituals were good enough for Our Lord, then certain rituals are good enough for us and in no way violate anything.

And how do you determine is a ritual is good or bad?

I leave the determination to God's Holy Church and as a faithful adherant accept the two thousand years of study it has done on all the relevant issues in a spirit of humility. I have full confidence that the Holy Spirit is indeed the guiding force behind it all.

Exactly my point.
You are confident that the church will provide you "kosher" information, and you must, if that church basically tells you not to argue over what they teach.
The Israelites were told the same thing by the Pharisees...don't argue over what we tell you to do.
The Bible tells us that they were wrong...they ignored scripture and ended up nailing the foundation of their belief to the cross.

So if you are part of an organisation where your hold the belief (either by choice or by force) that whatever this organisation proclaims is true, then it will be very difficult for you to determine what is good and what is bad.

[winsome]

I am simply explaining the cover. The saying is , never judge a book by it's cover, but  people do anyway.

The cover of catholicism is basically a lot of old men wearing strange outfits, in big buildings, walking up and down at a pedestrian pace, uttering gibberish ,or Latin, then laying off smoke - incense, this process takes up most of the Catholic church service, then 2 mins speech about the great example Jesus is.

What a travesty of the truth

The priest does not utter gibberish and to suggest he does is an insult.

There is no Latin in the Church I attend.

There are four readings from scripture on Sundays. Over the 3 yr (Sunday) cycle we hear readings from all the books of the Bible, including the genealogy from Matthew 1 – and get preaching on it.

How many Protestant pastors preach on the genealogy from Matthew 1?

The Sermon takes about 10 minutes.

For a Catholic he must go outside the church to learn about Jesus and bible teachings, in their spare time.

More nonensense. I go to Mass every day and get a sermon at each one on the word of God.

Apart from the readings from scripture the Mass is full of scripture

In our parish this Lent we have Scripture study on Tuesday mornings, A course called Life To The Full - Opening The Word of God on Friday mornings. There is also a Charismatic prayer group with teaching and Life in the Spirit Seminars.

A protestant church however dedicates most of the time on teaching the word of God and praising Jesus. Anyone can see instantly that this church loves Jesus and is dedicated to teaching the flock, the life of Jesus. A protestant can learn about Jesus in Church and gives them the tools to be empowered as a Holy Ghost filled world changer.

And so does the Catholic Church

The world thinks the RCC is just a big ceremony, no different than the ceremony of the Olympics. It has no reason to hate it, they might think it's boring or colourful

You may think that but it is far from the truth

[Selene]

If they throw me in prison, then I will still worship God.  Where the Catholic faith has been banned, people have still smuggled the Eucharist to those in prison.  The world already hates us for the things we know are true.  Heck even people who call them things Christian hate us for the things we know are true.

I don't think they hate the RCC, they just see it as another religion, similar to Buddhism or Islam, with all the cups and ornaments and rituals.

The world hates born again Christians because we claim that only Jesus can save them and only he defeated death.

I think the biggest haters of RCC are those that desire more power and the RcC is a hindrance to drug networks, or criminal activity and is competition to other religions like Islam.

Jesus  followed rituals - the Jewish rituals. And the Roman Rite of Christianity also teaches that Jesus saves us and he defeated death. So where exactly do you get your information on Jesus and the Catholic Church?

Correction: Jesus followed rituals as they were commanded in the Old Testament.
But He however did strongly agitate against rituals and regulations added by religious authorities.

A ritual is a ritual. It's either good or bad. There are New Testament rituals as well. I bet you follow rituals. Do you pray every day?  Before meals? Go to services every week perhaps? And in those services, follow the same form every week?

Look, any ritual or regulation added by the proper religious authorities (the Church) who were given said power by Jesus himself, is , well, kosher. If certain rituals were good enough for Our Lord, then certain rituals are good enough for us and in no way violate anything.

And how do you determine is a ritual is good or bad?

I leave the determination to God's Holy Church and as a faithful adherant accept the two thousand years of study it has done on all the relevant issues in a spirit of humility. I have full confidence that the Holy Spirit is indeed the guiding force behind it all.

Exactly my point.
You are confident that the church will provide you "kosher" information, and you must, if that church basically tells you not to argue over what they teach.
The Israelites were told the same thing by the Pharisees...don't argue over what we tell you to do.
The Bible tells us that they were wrong...they ignored scripture and ended up nailing the foundation of their belief to the cross.

So if you are part of an organisation where your hold the belief (either by choice or by force) that whatever this organisation proclaims is true, then it will be very difficult for you to determine what is good and what is bad.

It was Christ who said that He is the Head of the Church and will lead His Church into all truths.  This is why the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth because Truth (who is Christ) is her Head and who leads her into all truth.  So, if you cannot believe what the Holy Bible says about the Church or even believe in Christ's promise to lead the Church into all truth......what then do you have left??