An agnostic atheist on a Christian forum, is the world ending?

[A man with questions]

So, as you might figure out from the message above, I am in a place where most people of my belief would not go, onto a Christian forum. To me, religion is confusing and strange. I am not here to convert to a false magic man in the sky, but rather ask questions about this so that I can understand this cultural phenomenon on a personal and intellectual level. I will treat you guys equally provided that I don't get treated like I have on every single other Christian forum I've been to, hate, bigotry and ultimately, being banned. I hope that I will be able to sit down and just understand a worldview that I've never been able to comprehend. Thanks for being understanding and I look forward to many intelligent discussions In the future (I hope anyway).

[chosenone]

Hi
If you have come to understand Christianity and are open to understanding what we believe and why then you are welcome. If you have come to attack, make fun of or otherwise demean our Amazing Father and our faith, then no. Remember this is a Christian forum for Christians. Genuine seekers are welcome but you will need to come here with an open mind.
So if you DO have an open mind and a willingness to learn (and be changed) then that's OK.   

By the way, Christianity isn't a cultural phenomenon, and you will never understand Christianity on an intellectual level. Its all about faith and belief.

[A man with questions]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are one of those narrow minded Christian people who sees any intellectual challenge to any sort of something they believe in as an attack I stead of an exchanging of ideas. Such narrow minded people like you who have no problem "attacking" other religions yet gets angry when someone asks a controversial question about your religion. I hope that the rest of this website is not full of people like you. If I seem to understand you, you should likewise seek to understand my position.

[Carey]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are one of those narrow minded Christian people who sees any intellectual challenge to any sort of something they believe in as an attack I stead of an exchanging of ideas. Such narrow minded people like you who have no problem "attacking" other religions yet gets angry when someone asks a controversial question about your religion. I hope that the rest of this website is not full of people like you. If I seem to understand you, you should likewise seek to understand my position.

You got all that from chosenone's post?  That seems like a lot of unwarranted assuming....but maybe that's just me.

[A man with questions]

Well yes, because if you break what he/she said down into small bits, it's easier to understand the rational behind them. He/she states that "if you come to attack, make fun of, or otherwise demean our amazing father and our faith, then no." Right off of the bat, he/she says not to attack, which means not to challenge in any way or capacity. So for some reason, he/she thinks that his religion should be above my scrutiny. And later he/she says that I must be wanting to learn "and be changed" and again, he/she is assuming that his/her religion is above my own because I cannot challenge his/her doctrines but mine have to change. It's amazing how much can be learned from a book about psychology. Knowledge is power, use it well. And here, I've taken knowledge and turned it into a scalpel and peeled away this argument and revealed it for what it is, an arrogant person who thinks that his/her beliefs should be put above all others. It is a very shallow argument.

[A man with questions]

Oh, and he/she contradicts himself/herself when he/she says that it is an open religion and then discreetly says later in the sentence that it isn't.

[MyFathersGirl]

G

[Cally]

you should likewise seek to understand my position.

Why?

[Cally]

an arrogant person who thinks that his/her beliefs should be put above all others. It is a very shallow argument.

Oh dear, an atheist agnostic, you say? You're already talking in paradoxes consistent with agnosticism, stating things as absolute truth that amount to declaring that there is no absolute truth.

It's not possible not to think that your beliefs are "above all others" or else everything you say WILL be a paradox. What I quoted you saying above--do you believe that belief of yours is above all others such that everyone ought to accept it? Sure sounds like to me. Again, instant paradox.

[chosenone]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are one of those narrow minded Christian people who sees any intellectual challenge to any sort of something they believe in as an attack I stead of an exchanging of ideas. Such narrow minded people like you who have no problem "attacking" other religions yet gets angry when someone asks a controversial question about your religion. I hope that the rest of this website is not full of people like you. If I seem to understand you, you should likewise seek to understand my position.

Good grief, you have got an attitude haven't you.  I was merely pointing out that we wont allow attacks on God or Christianity here! You may be very young, but if you want to come here and ask questions with an open mind, then do so, other wise if you are merely here to attack us(as you have already done to me with no reason whatsoever) then you wont be allowed to stay.
WE don't attack other faiths, we but we all know that Jesus is the only way to God, and we want all people to come to know the one who gives life. Other faiths or none don't save people.

[chosenone]

Well yes, because if you break what he/she said down into small bits, it's easier to understand the rational behind them. He/she states that "if you come to attack, make fun of, or otherwise demean our amazing father and our faith, then no." Right off of the bat, he/she says not to attack, which means not to challenge in any way or capacity. So for some reason, he/she thinks that his religion should be above my scrutiny. And later he/she says that I must be wanting to learn "and be changed" and again, he/she is assuming that his/her religion is above my own because I cannot challenge his/her doctrines but mine have to change. It's amazing how much can be learned from a book about psychology. Knowledge is power, use it well. And here, I've taken knowledge and turned it into a scalpel and peeled away this argument and revealed it for what it is, an arrogant person who thinks that his/her beliefs should be put above all others. It is a very shallow argument.

Christianity is above all others because it is the only one that saves and gives eternal life. Why should we respect any other faith when it sends millions to hell?
I know that Jesus is the only way to God and if that is arrogant then so be it. I love Jesus and what he has done for us.
It really doesn't worry me what you think, because I have lived my faith since I was 15, barely older than you.

I can see why you have been banned from other forums if you have had this attitude there. IF you have come here to merely to attack us, then why come?
If you are here to respectfully ask questions, then stay, if not then you are free to leave. Your choice.

[chosenone]

Oh, and he/she contradicts himself/herself when he/she says that it is an open religion and then discreetly says later in the sentence that it isn't.

I didn't say we are an 'open' religion. Those were your words. However, anyone can become a believer if they accept Jesus as their Lord. Their choice. You are angry with God so you have chosen not to at this time.

[chosenone]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are one of those narrow minded Christian people who sees any intellectual challenge to any sort of something they believe in as an attack I stead of an exchanging of ideas. Such narrow minded people like you who have no problem "attacking" other religions yet gets angry when someone asks a controversial question about your religion. I hope that the rest of this website is not full of people like you. If I seem to understand you, you should likewise seek to understand my position.

You already stated that you had been banned from other forums so that's why I mentioned here what you needed to do to be allowed to stay. Even that you have taken entirely the wrong away.
We are Christians therefore we wont understand anyone who has rejected the most amazing Father ever, so no, we don't have to understand your position. You have rejected the very thing that leads to real lasting life in all its fullness. However we long that every person in the world would find what we have, so we are open to respectful questions.

[JohnDB]

Rule 6 violation.

What does he have in common with us?

[chosenone]

John I am all for giving people a chance to find God. He is 14 years old and thinks he knows it all. Give him a chance.

[JohnDB]

I moreso.

But with tempered reason.

[Victor08]

So, as you might figure out from the message above, I am in a place where most people of my belief would not go, onto a Christian forum. To me, religion is confusing and strange. I am not here to convert to a false magic man in the sky, but rather ask questions about this so that I can understand this cultural phenomenon on a personal and intellectual level. I will treat you guys equally provided that I don't get treated like I have on every single other Christian forum I've been to, hate, bigotry and ultimately, being banned. I hope that I will be able to sit down and just understand a worldview that I've never been able to comprehend. Thanks for being understanding and I look forward to many intelligent discussions In the future (I hope anyway).

Well, A man with questions, it seems you started off on the wrong foot.
The "false magic man in the sky" comment is not a good way to start off.

I too am an "agnostic" even though I was once a Christian(Catholic if that counts)
I doubt that God exists but I would never make fun of Him - I could be wrong.

By the way chosenone is a she, like others here; she is unwavering in her faith.

[A man with questions]

Wow, this forum really just expanded when I went to sleep. First of all, I would like to offee a rebuttal to you guys stating that my statement was full of attitude. Does using psychology on a statement and examining it in depth for its true meaning does not mean that I am ful of "attitude"

[Catholica]

Welcome to the forum!  If some parts of the forum you find troublesome, come on over to the Catholic forum. I always love answering questions about my religion, Catholic beliefs and practices. I grew up a Non-Theist. I found the Catholic faith, and only since them have I discovered the rest of divided Christianity. I think the Catholic faith will make the most coherent sense to you. And know that it is a different worldview from much of the rest of Christianity. You almost have to learn it separately.

André

[JohnDB]

Let's look at just a few things.

Agnostic is a tittle meaning without knowlege. Meaning that he doesn't know if there is a God or not.

Then he claims that he is an Atheist.
Atheists are against God. (Literal meaning of designation)

On top of this most atheists have real issues with true humility or respect for other's beliefs in God. (As already demonstrated).

Victor is our resident pseudoAgnostic but Victor is also truely humble & respectful. (Demonstrated on numerous occasions)

So time will tell if this guy is here to teach us all about what fools we are for our personal, one on one relationship with God or if he has actual questions he wishes answers to.

[A man with questions]

I'd like to reply to you but I am being censored, unless of course, this somehow gets through.

[Catholica]

JohnDB, it has come to my understanding that the word "atheist" is now sometimes used to describe a whole class of people, of which an "agnostic" would fall under.  Like an umbrella.  It's kind of like the word "Christian" in that sense.  To certain people I would refer to myself as a "Catholic Christian" rather than simply a "Catholic".

[chosenone]

Welcome to the forum!  If some parts of the forum you find troublesome, come on over to the Catholic forum. I always love answering questions about my religion, Catholic beliefs and practices. I grew up a Non-Theist. I found the Catholic faith, and only since them have I discovered the rest of divided Christianity. I think the Catholic faith will make the most coherent sense to you. And know that it is a different worldview from much of the rest of Christianity. You almost have to learn it separately.

André

He has had nothing but tolerance here so far, so has no need to avoid any parts of the forum.

[Catholica]

Welcome to the forum!  If some parts of the forum you find troublesome, come on over to the Catholic forum. I always love answering questions about my religion, Catholic beliefs and practices. I grew up a Non-Theist. I found the Catholic faith, and only since them have I discovered the rest of divided Christianity. I think the Catholic faith will make the most coherent sense to you. And know that it is a different worldview from much of the rest of Christianity. You almost have to learn it separately.

André

He has had nothing but tolerance here so far, so has no need to avoid any parts of the forum.

Nor have I told him to avoid any parts of the forum.

[DaveW]

JohnDB, it has come to my understanding that the word "atheist" is now sometimes used to describe a whole class of people, of which an "agnostic" would fall under.  Like an umbrella. 

Hmmmm.  It seems a LOT of people these days try to redefine words to whatever they feel like rather than using what is actually meant by those words.

Agnostic = without knowledge = I don't KNOW if there is a god or not.
Atheist = without god = there is no deity nor can there exist such a being.

[Catholica]

Wow, this forum really just expanded when I went to sleep. First of all, I would like to offee a rebuttal to you guys stating that my statement was full of attitude. Does using psychology on a statement and examining it in depth for its true meaning does not mean that I am ful of "attitude"

I have found that it is easy to wrongly attribute things to what people say.  Our experiences, positive or negative, can bias us too.  However there is some truth in what you said, that people who are afraid of questions can perceive questions as attacks.  But chosenone may in fact be expecting you to actually uncharitably attack beliefs based upon her own experiences.  So there is a greater dynamic going on here. 

[FireSword]

Well yes, because if you break what he/she said down into small bits, it's easier to understand the rational behind them. He/she states that "if you come to attack, make fun of, or otherwise demean our amazing father and our faith, then no." Right off of the bat, he/she says not to attack, which means not to challenge in any way or capacity. So for some reason, he/she thinks that his religion should be above my scrutiny. And later he/she says that I must be wanting to learn "and be changed" and again, he/she is assuming that his/her religion is above my own because I cannot challenge his/her doctrines but mine have to change. It's amazing how much can be learned from a book about psychology. Knowledge is power, use it well. And here, I've taken knowledge and turned it into a scalpel and peeled away this argument and revealed it for what it is, an arrogant person who thinks that his/her beliefs should be put above all others. It is a very shallow argument.

This forum is full of challenges every day, it is the spirit of malice that we are against, not the challenge.
Interesting analogy about psychology knowledge being employed as a scalpel. The word of God which was written thousands of years before that book says ' The word of God is like a two edged sword, that divides between the bone and marrow and is a discerner of hearts'

[Catholica]

JohnDB, it has come to my understanding that the word "atheist" is now sometimes used to describe a whole class of people, of which an "agnostic" would fall under.  Like an umbrella. 

Hmmmm.  It seems a LOT of people these days try to redefine words to whatever they feel like rather than using what is actually meant by those words.

Agnostic = without knowledge = I don't KNOW if there is a god or not.
Atheist = without god = there is no deity nor can there exist such a being.

When I google "agnostic atheist" I found the following definition:

An agnostic atheist is defined as one who does not know for sure if any gods exist or not but who also does not believe in any gods. This definition makes it clear that being an agnostic and being an atheist are not mutually exclusive. Knowledge and belief are related but separate issues: not knowing if something is true or not doesn't exclude believing or disbelieving it.

[DaveW]

I guess that the way I understood it was true atheists were few and far between  - those so hardened in their stance that no deity exists that they are very militant about it.  They are not 'agnostic' because they KNOW beyond any doubt that God does not exist.

[A man with questions]

I cannot disprove god's existence for sure because you cannot disprove of a universal negative. If a being is defined as invisible, but always there, I cannot simply deny its existence. And since my bio other message was taken down by this sites censor net, I should probably tell you guys a little about myself. I am not a grown man, instead, I am 14 years old. I live in newtown Connecticut. I happened to be in the school when "it" happened. I was there reading to first graders on the basis of getting community service to look good on my college application. My sisters friend lost her life that day. On that day, I went from agnostic to an agnostic atheist. If there was ever a time for god to reveal himself to me and save my sister's friend, he didn't.

[chosenone]

I cannot disprove god's existence for sure because you cannot disprove of a universal negative. If a being is defined as invisible, but always there, I cannot simply deny its existence. And since my bio other message was taken down by this sites censor net, I should probably tell you guys a little about myself. I am not a grown man, instead, I am 14 years old. I live in newtown Connecticut. I happened to be in the school when "it" happened. I was there reading to first graders on the basis of getting community service to look good on my college application. My sisters friend lost her life that day. On that day, I went from agnostic to an agnostic atheist. If there was ever a time for god to reveal himself to me and save my sister's friend, he didn't.

What would you suggest that God had done, being that he has given us all free will to act badly if we choose?

[chosenone]

Wow, this forum really just expanded when I went to sleep. First of all, I would like to offee a rebuttal to you guys stating that my statement was full of attitude. Does using psychology on a statement and examining it in depth for its true meaning does not mean that I am ful of "attitude"

I have found that it is easy to wrongly attribute things to what people say.  Our experiences, positive or negative, can bias us too.  However there is some truth in what you said, that people who are afraid of questions can perceive questions as attacks.  But chosenone may in fact be expecting you to actually uncharitably attack beliefs based upon her own experiences.  So there is a greater dynamic going on here. 

I think if anyone reads his initial post, my reply was fair, being that athiests are not actually allowed here. His first posts were quiet rude and fairly aggressive, but I wanted to give him a chance. Time will tell if I was right to do so or not.

[Catholica]

I cannot disprove god's existence for sure because you cannot disprove of a universal negative. If a being is defined as invisible, but always there, I cannot simply deny its existence. And since my bio other message was taken down by this sites censor net, I should probably tell you guys a little about myself. I am not a grown man, instead, I am 14 years old. I live in newtown Connecticut. I happened to be in the school when "it" happened. I was there reading to first graders on the basis of getting community service to look good on my college application. My sisters friend lost her life that day. On that day, I went from agnostic to an agnostic atheist. If there was ever a time for god to reveal himself to me and save my sister's friend, he didn't.

That is a tragic story, and I can begin to understand why you have come to where you are.

The real question here that you are grappling/have grappled with, I believe, is if God is real, how can he allow evil to happen?  Is this far off the mark?  Perhaps you are exploring Christianity not so much as a cultural phenomenon but rather for what it has to say about this?  That would be a worthwhile question.

If you were to ask me about God and Newtown, I would be of the mind that this falls under the mystery of evil.  It is not a case of God not existing, just a case of our expectations of "what God would do" not being met.  Perhaps the real God is different than you expect him to be, that you expect him to be somewhat more like yourself?  I'm not saying that as a dig, I'm just saying that because it is a common misunderstanding.

If you have the time, there is a podcast that you might benefit from listening to.  It may not be an answer to your question (assuming the question you asked concerns the problem of evil) but it may give you a better idea of Christianity's understanding regarding that question (as well as the belief in brief of other world religions).

http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-Radio/Sermons/2008/Sermon-402---25th-Sunday-in-Ordinary-Time----As-Hi.aspx

[Catholica]

Wow, this forum really just expanded when I went to sleep. First of all, I would like to offee a rebuttal to you guys stating that my statement was full of attitude. Does using psychology on a statement and examining it in depth for its true meaning does not mean that I am ful of "attitude"

I have found that it is easy to wrongly attribute things to what people say.  Our experiences, positive or negative, can bias us too.  However there is some truth in what you said, that people who are afraid of questions can perceive questions as attacks.  But chosenone may in fact be expecting you to actually uncharitably attack beliefs based upon her own experiences.  So there is a greater dynamic going on here. 

I think if anyone reads his initial post, my reply was fair, being that athiests are not actually allowed here. His first posts were quiet rude and fairly aggressive, but I wanted to give him a chance. Time will tell if I was right to do so or not.

I perceived your initial response to his post as fair.  But I think from "A man with questions" point of view and his experience of being "tossed out" for what he believed was "just asking questions" has made him sensitive to this very real phenomenon among some people who call themselves Christians: a fear of tough questions, an inability to answer them, which more often than should be goes along with a complete lack of charity toward another human person.  I'm not saying that you were doing that in this case, I'm saying that there are many with that attitude out there, unfortunately.

Knowing what we know now, we can know that the words he used, which appeared harsh and uncharitable, are stemming from real pain.   I think every human person has felt the same way as he has at one point or another.

[A man with questions]

There are other, more well thought out reasons for not believing in god than simply losing a friend in a tragedy. If there is a higher being, a god or gods, I need something tangible to believe that it is the Christian god. For all I know, Allah is the true god (and if he is, he is the biggest hypocritical god I've ever seen in religion). But I don't believe in god for other reasons. He is defined as perfect,'something that cannot be added or detracted from. And he is said to be always perfect. So if nothing could be added or detracted from his existence, how can he create earth and humans and the universe with all in it. It's like having 5 sides on a square. So how is god possibly a perfect being?