Concerned with Book found in daughters Back Pack

[Willie T]

Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

Detachment is good for us personally, but towards our children it can be bad.    My mom thinks she did a pretty good job in raising me also, and she also didn't stress over "every little thing".  Or any "big thing" for that matter.  She took a very hands off approach.  And I fell into traps of sin.  God made up for her mistakes, but He also gives us parents to impart wisdom.  I wouldn't consider this a "little thing".

God is caring for our children, and the name of that care for this child is "LovesBNAmom".

As is often the case, a bit of over reaction seems to have crept into the response to the intent of a post.

I think we all know ChosenOne too well to think that a "Ho Hum" attitude was ever suggested.

I'm only going by her words: "Its just a book. Pray for her, trust God and move on."

I know you were.  But just like the participants in this author's little book, shouldn't we be simply asking others on here.... "Is this really what you meant?"

[Catholica]

Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

Detachment is good for us personally, but towards our children it can be bad.    My mom thinks she did a pretty good job in raising me also, and she also didn't stress over "every little thing".  Or any "big thing" for that matter.  She took a very hands off approach.  And I fell into traps of sin.  God made up for her mistakes, but He also gives us parents to impart wisdom.  I wouldn't consider this a "little thing".

God is caring for our children, and the name of that care for this child is "LovesBNAmom".

As is often the case, a bit of over reaction seems to have crept into the response to the intent of a post.

I think we all know ChosenOne too well to think that a "Ho Hum" attitude was ever suggested.

I'm only going by her words: "Its just a book. Pray for her, trust God and move on."

I know you were.  But just like the adults in this little book's author, shouldn't we be simply asking others on here.... "Is this really what you meant?"

Perhaps.  Did you?

[Willie T]

Perhaps.  Did you?

I found nothing objectionable in her post to address.

[Catholica]

ChosenOne, do you believe that she should be involved and talk to her child about the book, or that she should be hands off and let God handle the issue instead of addressing it?

[chosenone]

Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

Detachment is good for us personally, but towards our children it can be bad.    My mom thinks she did a pretty good job in raising me also, and she also didn't stress over "every little thing".  Or any "big thing" for that matter.  She took a very hands off approach.  And I fell into traps of sin.  God made up for her mistakes, but He also gives us parents to impart wisdom.  I wouldn't consider this a "little thing".

God is caring for our children, and the name of that care for this child is "LovesBNAmom".

As is often the case, a bit of over reaction seems to have crept into the response to the intent of a post.

I think we all know ChosenOne too well to think that a "Ho Hum" attitude was ever suggested.

No its wasn't Willie you are so right. I bought my kids up in a firm, consistent but loving way. I was pretty strict when they were young with things like routine, bedtimes, behaviour and what tv they could watch etc. However, as they grow into their teens, we do need to let go a bit and to give them more freedom to learn and explore and read and research other things in life than merely what we have taught them. We shouldn't be afraid of that but keep praying and trust them into Gods care. As they mature we must withdraw more to allow them to be independent young people with their own minds and thoughts and ideas and faith.

I know too many young people who have been so controlled and smothered by their parents, that as adults they cannot make a decision, leave home or cope with anything life throws at them. Its tragic. 

[chosenone]

ChosenOne, do you believe that she should be involved and talk to her child about the book, or that she should be hands off and let God handle the issue instead of addressing it?

IF the book was in her bag I wouldn't have touched it out of respect for her privacy.  If it was in her room on show, I would probably have spoken to her and asked her what she thought of it and what it was about, in a non accusing friendly way. Then I would have taken it from there.
I would hope to have listened to my husband and what he felt the right thing to do. In this case he said he felt it was curiosity(and I agree) and didn't want to take it any further.
I wouldnt make her feel bad for wanting to read it, or tell her not to, because that would merely make it more appealing. When we have teenagers we are treading a fine line, and we do need to pick our battles and respect their opinions and decisions to a large extent.
If we rush in and make a fuss about something that isn't that serious, they will never come to us with worries or fears or questions, but will hide things more and be more secretive.

[LovesBNAmom]

Okay I was really trying to hold off on commenting before I finished this garbage.   But as seeing that Willie and I are the only ones reading it.  I feel I need to address it.  First Willie is correct this is a poorly  written self published unedited trash.   The book comes off innocent enough recounting awkward church stories, but you get the sense that is just the author's attempt to lure you in and to get you laughing about  the absurd way we worship.   Then speaking of chapters.  Here are some gems for you .  "Lets get Stoned" or "The Atheist Stripper".   This book belittles faith.  It isn't cute it isn't funny.    I will finish it only because I have to.  But me and my friends concerns are increasing with every page turned.  How did this book come out of no where and find its way into a 14 year olds pack back?    Have we as Christians forgotten that the devil is real and he seeks to attack  our children subtly?     

[MeMyself]

  Have we as Christians forgotten that the devil is real and he seeks to attack  our children subtly?     

No. Talk to your daughter about your concerns, *listen* to her about hers. If the book resonates with her, there must be a reason, teens are *highly* sensitive to what they perceive as hypocrisy.  Help her process, don't shame her, she is searching and trying to make this faith she has grown up with her own.

Try to keep it between you, your dh and her, LEAVE your friend and her opinions out of it. It is not her business. 

[Willie T]

Okay I was really trying to hold off on commenting before I finished this garbage.   But as seeing that Willie and I are the only ones reading it.  I feel I need to address it.  First Willie is correct this is a poorly  written self published unedited trash.   The book comes off innocent enough recounting awkward church stories, but you get the sense that is just the author's attempt to lure you in and to get you laughing about  the absurd way we worship.   Then speaking of chapters.  Here are some gems for you .  "Lets get Stoned" or "The Atheist Stripper".   This book belittles faith.  It isn't cute it isn't funny.    I will finish it only because I have to.  But me and my friends concerns are increasing with every page turned.  How did this book come out of no where and find its way into a 14 year olds pack back?    Have we as Christians forgotten that the devil is real and he seeks to attack  our children subtly?   

I am only up to chapter 10, but most of the stuff up to that point is just loaded with beautiful, God-given opportunities to really get into understanding the "how and why" of the attitudes this kid started trying to formulate.

Please don't dismiss all the good dialogue this little book could help you instigate if skillfully managed to your advantage, just because it is not a literary pearl.  It is truly a diamond in the rough, IF you know how to make it reflect the properly selected and polished facets of developmental thinking in a teenager.

[Catholica]

There is no such thing as "simple curiosity" when it comes to media, is there?  I'm so glad that you did get yourself involved, LovesBNAmom.

Some people might consider my wife and I extreme, but so be it.  We guard all media in our home jealously.  People in today's age would think that our kids would be miserable.  But rather our kids are filled with joy that is extremely uncommon.  And we get them involved in positive things, and gradually introduce them to new things as they are ready for them, which my wife and I judge by their maturing and their need, out of zealous love for their souls.

This is no small issue and you were absolutely right to look into it.  To me that shows that you are a mom who loves your children more than many today.

From someone who hasn't forgotten about Satan.  :-)

[Willie T]

Remember.............................. The fastest way to drive your daughter into the arms of that stupid, long-haired freak you saw her with at the mall is to tell her what a fool you think he looks like.  Forget this small, basic part of parenting a teen girl, and you KNOW what will happen.

Please..... Don't, don't, don't fall into that trap.

[chosenone]

There is no such thing as "simple curiosity" when it comes to media, is there?  I'm so glad that you did get yourself involved, LovesBNAmom.

Some people might consider my wife and I extreme, but so be it.  We guard all media in our home jealously.  People in today's age would think that our kids would be miserable.  But rather our kids are filled with joy that is extremely uncommon.  And we get them involved in positive things, and gradually introduce them to new things as they are ready for them, which my wife and I judge by their maturing and their need, out of zealous love for their souls.

This is no small issue and you were absolutely right to look into it.  To me that shows that you are a mom who loves your children more than many today.

From someone who hasn't forgotten about Satan.  :-)

You can do than when they are young and you can control what they do and see and hear in your home(as I did), but as they grow and mature and go to secondary school and to friends houses and mix in the real world, and leave home, and go to university, you cant do that. Then you will need to trust them and trust God to look after them and find their own way and their own faith in their own time.
Stamping down on every little thing that we may not ourselves approve of wont help. They will still do it, but in secret. They will stop communicating and sharing and being able to ask questions.
Sometimes we can do more harm than good if we over react on such things.   

By the way loving doesn't mean controlling and over protecting and not allowing a teenager to grow up. Gradually letting go at the right time is something that so many parents struggle with today, I see it all the time. Inept dysfunctional young adults who cant cope with life because of it.  Its far more of a problem than those who understand that teenagers need to investigate matters and question things for themselves instead of just telling them that they must do things the parents way or else.   

[chosenone]

Remember.............................. The fastest way to drive your daughter into the arms of that stupid, long-haired freak you saw her with at the mall is to tell her what a fool you think he looks like.  Forget this small, basic part of parenting a teen girl, and you KNOW what will happen.

Please..... Don't, don't, don't fall into that trap.

Oh Willie that's so true. I have two daughters and a son, all well into adulthood now(my son now has his own son), and they have taught me such a lot about what is important and what isn't, in life and in parenting.   

[Catholica]

The best situation we can be in is not just saying "no" to things, but rather to be teaching the why in the positive as well.  Helping kids to know their inherent dignity.  Showing them the beauty of the truth.  Imparting true wisdom.  These tools have given to parents to impart in their children.  Through these things kids will be not simply following rules when they go off on their own, but will be adhering principles with virtue.

In this situation, it appears to be too late for that however.  The daughter has already listened to the bad media.  We think that it doesn't matter what enters our heads, but Eve in the garden of Eden listened to the serpent and it polluted her mind. 

So now you are doing the right thing, LovesBNAmom.

[AVZ]

About a week ago I found the book "A Waste of Time Called Church" in my 14 year old daughter's pack back.   I have always prided myself in giving her a reasonable amount of freedom,  and have held back on confronting her about it.  Her father has chalked it up to just curiosity.  She maintains good grades, volunteers, and is active in  youth group.  I don't know if my concerns are only because she is typically so open with me or because I am genuinely concerned about this books content.  I spoke to my pastor's wife and she asked for me to give it time before addressing.  I have reached out to this forum for both advice and maybe a place to vent some.  Thank you   

When my kids read something I feel may effect their emotional well-being, I always ask them if I can read it when they are done.
Their response always is more telling to me than the content of the book.

[Willie T]

About a week ago I found the book "A Waste of Time Called Church" in my 14 year old daughter's pack back.   I have always prided myself in giving her a reasonable amount of freedom,  and have held back on confronting her about it.  Her father has chalked it up to just curiosity.  She maintains good grades, volunteers, and is active in  youth group.  I don't know if my concerns are only because she is typically so open with me or because I am genuinely concerned about this books content.  I spoke to my pastor's wife and she asked for me to give it time before addressing.  I have reached out to this forum for both advice and maybe a place to vent some.  Thank you   

When my kids read something I feel may effect their emotional well-being, I always ask them if I can read it when they are done.
Their response always is more telling to me than the content of the book.

Yep.  We are working with "perceptions"... both theirs, and ours.

[LovesBNAmom]

I have finished this book.  I can see its allure and both my friend and I view it as  "Dangerous!".    It comes across with this innocent "have you ever  thought about it like this " attitude .   Or a "don't you find this kind of silly".  But if you pay attention here is what you will find.  The author... author that's comical actually.  This person with a  computer that posted this disguises their message in this everyday person that has this epiphany to quit going to church.  Instead they will help people on Sundays.  He and his friends posts their desire to lend a hand to strangers on craiglist and Voila! Everyone jumps on board and they mow elder people's lawns,  help people move, clean up parks,  make swing set.   Very warm and fuzzy and admirable. 

The characters attack The Gospel dissecting it and even rewriting it to fit there own agenda.  (They compare it to a flat world map)
They manipulate Royal law
They dismiss Hell as a joke
They walk out of churches during the invitation
They characterized Christians specifically as a group of  simple minded prisoners held captive by the pulpit
They characterize religion as means of control.
They do drugs and it is no big deal
Those that defend true faith are mocked and made to look crazy, mean, and stupid.

Here are some quotes: "Don't mistake your relationship with the church of even your religion for your relationship with God.  God is bigger than that and so are you."
The Bible:   "It's a way for religious zealots to one up one another.  The higher they can raise the Bible the closer they can say they are to God."
They say whoever wrote Revelation was "stoned".

My daughter returns from her father's tonight.   I am trying to maintain some perspective and remain calm.  I do appreciate everyone's participation in this forum, but please understand this book represent in "My belief"  a dangerous influence on my daughter.  It will not be ignored.  And while many have suggested I should let it go or allow a natural dialogue to happen that is not  an option.   Her reading this worries me sincerely  for both its content and how it arrived in her back pack.   My friend is   is going to try and prompt a discussion on "Good Works" in youth group  to see if that opens up a conversation.   Her attitude is to focus on that and that alone, then expose only the points they raise.   I am not sure I will be able wait until after church to address it. 

[Willie T]

Don't you see what you are being led into?  Consistently, you have made a big deal of "Where did this book come from, to end up in her back pack?".  So what, WHERE it came from?  It came from the same place all the rest of the books and pictures and philosophies that she is now finding, on a weekly basis, will be coming from............ the world she is now entering into.

Truly, I am trying to warn you, in love, that you are harboring and radically expanding an attitude that could easily blow this thing all out of proportion if you even attempt to address any of this in your present, upset and irrational state of mind.  Surely, you cannot be so naïve as to think you can treat a teenager the same as you were able to steamroller a child with, "because I say so", tactics a few years ago, are you?

This is a time for cooler heads to prevail.  And you are not exhibiting one at this point.

And this is a time to QUICKLY begin to relate to this new YOUNG WOMAN in your household as the "adult" she thinks she is.  If you do not, things will look rosy to you for a little while... and you will think you did your job........................... ONLY to find that you will have done nothing more than driven all this awakening curiosity (THAT MUST BE ADDRESSED) underground where you will possibly never again hear of it until it explodes in your face a year, or so, from now.

Smarten up.  This is a chance, and God will help..... but not in the way that it looks like you're insisting on taking it.

Playing Ostrich won't work with teens.  (And that thought in the back of your mind of turning the blame to her father?  Get rid of that evil,  right now....... It's about HER, not you guys.)

[LovesBNAmom]

Where do we draw the line.   What if I discovered grotesque pictures or sexually explicit material in her pack back?   What if I discovered Drugs?   I understand how it appears to you Willie especially considering  you had defended this book in your previous posts.  But can you at least extend me the courtesy of understanding what  this represent to me.  Its  spiritual pornography.   Is there anything that would cause you to be worried and concerned about your child that you felt was both delicate but needed to be dealt with immediately.    So I don't care if appears I am irrational when I honestly see this as way to desensitize her to sinful influences.   And I will expose this book to her for what it is.

[Willie T]

Where do we draw the line.   What if I discovered grotesque pictures or sexually explicit material in her pack back?   What if I discovered Drugs?   I understand how it appears to you Willie especially considering  you had defended this book in your previous posts.  But can you at least extend me the courtesy of understanding what  this represent to me.  Its  spiritual pornography.   Is there anything that would cause you to be worried and concerned about your child that you felt was both delicate but needed to be dealt with immediately.    So I don't care if appears I am irrational when I honestly see this as way to desensitize her to sinful influences.   And I will expose this book to her for what it is.

The breakdown in your entire approach is expressed in your own words.

We "expose" nothing to teens.  (Why do you think it never worked with any of us?)  We lead them to think for themselves, and let them do their own "exposing".

[chosenone]

I have finished this book.  I can see its allure and both my friend and I view it as  "Dangerous!".    It comes across with this innocent "have you ever  thought about it like this " attitude .   Or a "don't you find this kind of silly".  But if you pay attention here is what you will find.  The author... author that's comical actually.  This person with a  computer that posted this disguises their message in this everyday person that has this epiphany to quit going to church.  Instead they will help people on Sundays.  He and his friends posts their desire to lend a hand to strangers on craiglist and Voila! Everyone jumps on board and they mow elder people's lawns,  help people move, clean up parks,  make swing set.   Very warm and fuzzy and admirable. 

The characters attack The Gospel dissecting it and even rewriting it to fit there own agenda.  (They compare it to a flat world map)
They manipulate Royal law
They dismiss Hell as a joke
They walk out of churches during the invitation
They characterized Christians specifically as a group of  simple minded prisoners held captive by the pulpit
They characterize religion as means of control.
They do drugs and it is no big deal
Those that defend true faith are mocked and made to look crazy, mean, and stupid.

Here are some quotes: "Don't mistake your relationship with the church of even your religion for your relationship with God.  God is bigger than that and so are you."
The Bible:   "It's a way for religious zealots to one up one another.  The higher they can raise the Bible the closer they can say they are to God."
They say whoever wrote Revelation was "stoned".

My daughter returns from her father's tonight.   I am trying to maintain some perspective and remain calm.  I do appreciate everyone's participation in this forum, but please understand this book represent in "My belief"  a dangerous influence on my daughter.  It will not be ignored.  And while many have suggested I should let it go or allow a natural dialogue to happen that is not  an option.   Her reading this worries me sincerely  for both its content and how it arrived in her back pack.   My friend is   is going to try and prompt a discussion on "Good Works" in youth group  to see if that opens up a conversation.   Her attitude is to focus on that and that alone, then expose only the points they raise.   I am not sure I will be able wait until after church to address it. 

....and what are you going to do when she is 16 or 18 or 20 and does something you don't like? I agree with Willie here. If you stamp down hard on this she will only leave any future books at school or hide it better next time. You seem to think that communication wont help. OF course it will help, far more than you over reacting and laying down the law and not allowing her to ever find things out for herself. Honestly you will probably have far far worse than this to deal with, save your anger and battles for those times.
The more parents make a fuss about something, the more teenagers will react against that and hide things. Its all part of growing up.    Teenagers need to find their own way and their own faith in their own time. One book isn't going to make them turn against God, and if you had said nothing she may well just have read it and forgotten it in a few weeks. Your reaction may well make it all so much worse. In fact it almost certainly will. 

[MeMyself]

My daughter returns from her father's tonight.   I am trying to maintain some perspective and remain calm.  I do appreciate everyone's participation in this forum, but please understand this book represent in "My belief"  a dangerous influence on my daughter.  It will not be ignored.  And while many have suggested I should let it go or allow a natural dialogue to happen that is not  an option.   Her reading this worries me sincerely  for both its content and how it arrived in her back pack.   My friend is   is going to try and prompt a discussion on "Good Works" in youth group  to see if that opens up a conversation.   Her attitude is to focus on that and that alone, then expose only the points they raise.   I am not sure I will be able wait until after church to address it. 

You *shouldn't* wait! This is NOT your friend's job to address with her, its yours!  I think you made a HUGE mistake by dragging this friend into it, and now she (your daughter) is going to feel cornered and embarrassed when she (your friend) "happens" to bring this subject up to everyone...

But...nothing can be done about that now.

As for the natural dialog not being an option, why not?  What is stopping you from saying, "I read the book, I have some thoughts, but before I share them, I'd like to hear yours." ?

[LovesBNAmom]

I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

[MeMyself]

I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

Did you let her share her thoughts at.all? Did you listen to her, or give her a chance to just tell you where she is coming from?  Children are people too.  They have a right to their own thoughts and feelings on things and should be allowed to share them in a place that is accepting, safe and where they are loved.

My kids and I don't always see eye to eye, but I *always* give them a voice, I *always* listen to their thoughts so I know where their heart is...and I validate how they are feeling and thinking too.

When I have to say "I hear you and I respect your sharing your thoughts with me, but here is where dad and I are coming from, and we just don't feel good about this, so the answer is no." they are more likely to feel we are on the same team, will work with us, not harden their hearts against us and rebel or sneak and will comply. We are called as parents not to provoke our children. IMO from when I was a child and as I raise my own, not allowing kids to be separate people with their own voice and not respecting their way of thinking is the quickest way to provoke them.

Did you ask her WHY she was so upset at the thought you were disposing of the book?  I have a strong feeling that this is not over for her, by a long shot.

[chosenone]

I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

Wow

[Catholica]

Way to go, LovesBNAmom.   That was very brave.

[k-pappy]

I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

Good for you.  My oldest boy is coming to an age where I have had to initiate some uncomfortable conversations, so I can understand what you are going through.  Getting advice can be a two-edged sword, so kudos to you for doing what you felt was right and sticking to your guns, so to speak.

[chosenone]

Good communication is the key, but there are ways and means of doing it. If we handle things the wrong way, and act far too heavy handed, the children will no longer talk to us about things that they are troubled about or concerned about, because they don't want that same 'do what I say, believe what I believe or else' approach.  We must allow them some freedom to think for themselves and explore for themselves as they get into their teenage years.
I doubt this young lady will let her mum find any future books or anything else that may cause a similar reaction. They will be well hidden from now on.

There will probably be far more serious issues that will come up in the next 3 or 4 years, so do we want our kids to be able to come to us or not?  Out of all my friends, the ones with the very strict parents were the worst in their behaviour and actions. They were the ones who drank, had sex, took drugs and of course their parents knew nothing of this.  Pick your battles is good advise when it come to teenagers. Otherwise you will be at war constantly over every little thing. 

There is always a balance with teenagers, and some parents go too far one way and some go too far the other.
I am troubled that the girls Fathers opinions were ignored completely.

[LovesBNAmom]

I want to address two issues raised first my daughter's points.  She was indeed infatuated with this book and I gave her  time over lunch and even later on to express her points.   They were difficult to digest but I did.  For examples- "Don't you think the Koz (The main character)  was a good person and that Jesus really only cares about how we treat each other over everything else."  Two other quotes she gravitated to were.   "Who more loves the father the son that sits in his house showering him with praise or the one that willingly tends to his flock outside." The other  being "Any person that has wiped sweat from their brow helping another human being is as baptized as they will ever need to be."   The most difficult part was her defense of their manipulation of Royal law.   But for each of these points I countered respectively.   I really got the sense she wanted me to acknowledge some sort of truth in this garbage and I would NOT.     

As far as her father being ignored.  I kept him informed at the same pace I have updated this thread.   He too became concerned once I explained this book to him.  While he may have approached it slightly differently he was on board with me approaching her.

[Catholica]

I want to address two issues raised first my daughter's points.  She was indeed infatuated with this book and I gave her  time over lunch and even later on to express her points.   They were difficult to digest but I did.  For examples- "Don't you think the Koz (The main character)  was a good person and that Jesus really only cares about how we treat each other over everything else."  Two other quotes she gravitated to were.   "Who more loves the father the son that sits in his house showering him with praise or the one that willingly tends to his flock outside." The other  being "Any person that has wiped sweat from their brow helping another human being is as baptized as they will ever need to be."   The most difficult part was her defense of their manipulation of Royal law.   But for each of these points I countered respectively.   I really got the sense she wanted me to acknowledge some sort of truth in this garbage and I would NOT.   

Interesting.  How did you answer?  Did you relate the Mary and Martha story? 

As far as her father being ignored.  I kept him informed at the same pace I have updated this thread.   He too became concerned once I explained this book to him.  While he may have approached it slightly differently he was on board with me approaching her.

Glad to hear it.  It would be nice if he could address her concerning the topic of worshiping God as well, if that is possible.

[LovesBNAmom]

The main course I took was  "Thou shalt not take the Lords name in vain".   I believe many Christians have mistaken this commandment.   I explained.   It is arrogant and sinful to assume we can understand God's motives.   We as his children can not begin to fathom his grace.   We have been blessed with his word and in it the answers.   

[MeMyself]

I want to address two issues raised first my daughter's points.  She was indeed infatuated with this book and I gave her  time over lunch and even later on to express her points.   They were difficult to digest but I did.  For examples- "Don't you think the Koz (The main character)  was a good person and that Jesus really only cares about how we treat each other over everything else."  Two other quotes she gravitated to were.   "Who more loves the father the son that sits in his house showering him with praise or the one that willingly tends to his flock outside." The other  being "Any person that has wiped sweat from their brow helping another human being is as baptized as they will ever need to be."   The most difficult part was her defense of their manipulation of Royal law.   But for each of these points I countered respectively.   I really got the sense she wanted me to acknowledge some sort of truth in this garbage and I would NOT.     

I am VERY glad to hear you allowed her a time to share with you! That is great!  Good job! 

Did you call her points and points of agreement with the book garbage?

Tending the flock is biblical. Peter was told to feed His sheep and Jesus says this as well:

Matthew 25: 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

It sounds as if she has a heart for missions and acts of service which are NOT garbage!

God is also clear that it is VERY important to Him how we treat others, that we don't show favoritism, or put people down.  He calls us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.

The baptism bit is troubling though and should be addressed.  NOT disrespected and put down, but addressed with dignity and respect. Remember that you have Truth on your side and there is no reason to call an opposing view point garbage. You want her to hear you and she will not do that if your words are careless and put her on the defensive.

[Willie T]

I guess you can be proud of yourself.  You got what you set out to get.  (But, sadly, nowhere near what both of you COULD have had.)

[LovesBNAmom]

Willie-  I respect the fact that you read this book though I believe like me you discovered it to be a blatant manipulations since you have ceased to defend it.  I don't understand this idea of dialogue and this idea that children get to participate as adults.  They are not adults they are not prepared to be adults.  Why must we suppress our core beliefs because we are afraid to hurt our children's feelings.    I approached her directly I didn't sugar coat it and I am proud of that.   This idea you have to tip toe and get to the cause and understand before acting like a parent isn't being a parent. 

[MeMyself]

I don't understand this idea of dialogue and this idea that children get to participate as adults. They are not adults they are not prepared to be adults. 

No one said anything about that. Of course they aren't adults, but they ARE people and deserve to be treated with respect and dignity!

Why must we suppress our core beliefs because we are afraid to hurt our children's feelings.

It is important to God that we not provoke our children to anger. Behaving like a bull in a china shop "because I SAID SO!" is doing just that.

I approached her directly I didn't sugar coat it and I am proud of that.

So you did call her feelings and beliefs about the book garbage then?

This idea you have to tip toe and get to the cause and understand before acting like a parent isn't being a parent. 

Neither is the attitude, "its my way or the highway"...that's being a bully.