Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

The final straw is this - the Jews actually defeated the Romans and became an independent state in 132/133.  Could a nation that no longer exists defeat the Roman empire?

Thanks for the suggestions

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Can you scripturally support that the discourse on the Mount of Olives was referring  to the quote.

Which quote?

I'm interested to see how scriptures concerning these events was the intent of  prophecy.  I agree there was much that happened to the Jewish Nation post AD 70, however did the sacrifices as related in the OT continue without a temple. Daniel 12:11

As nearly as I can tell, Daniel refers to the Maccabean revolt, and Antiochus Epiphanes defilement of the temple. 

To answer the question directly, there is little evidence to suggest that they did in the interim between revolts.  There is some evidence to suggest that Bar Kochba, at the time of the revolt, either rebuilt or at least attempted to rebuild the temple.  Specifically, he went out of his way to make Jerusalem a target, and he minted coinage with a picture of the temple on the front.  It is probable that he would have offered sacrifice at the site, if for no other reason, than that there was precedent.

Perhaps I'm answering a question you did not imply, if so what is the gist of it. And how does it scripturally contradicts those posting on this thread.
There is no question Israel is alive and well; however the only message I'm getting is they stand before God no different than any other Nation. I believe the shattering was not annihilation but a turning point from the OT to the NT. The destuction of the temple was a sign of that truth IMHO.

Larry

My view is that physical Israel of that day was a composite entity made up of (a) real Israelites, and (b) those who were (perhaps unknowingly) not Israelites at all.  The NT doctrine is explicitly that people's deeds will reveal their true paternity - whether true Israel or not.  Those who are the seed of Abraham do what Abraham did.  The tribulation period, which I argue lasted some 70 years and encompassed both rebellions, was a period of threshing and reaping.  It separated the real Israelites from the false.  At least, that's what John and Jesus preached.

Jarrod

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Though it is possible that preterism is real I think that the scriptures point to futurism. I'll leave it at that because I have no desire to argue about it. I don't consider it a super important thing to try to get preterists to change their view. The Christian churches throughout the world have enough problems fending off Satan's attacks than to deal with this internal issue now, I think.

The events were still in the writers' future.  It would be that way even if the preterists are right.

[beforetime]

My view is that physical Israel of that day was a composite entity made up of (a) real Israelites, and (b) those who were (perhaps unknowingly) not Israelites at all.  The NT doctrine is explicitly that people's deeds will reveal their true paternity - whether true Israel or not.  Those who are the seed of Abraham do what Abraham did.  The tribulation period, which I argue lasted some 70 years and encompassed both rebellions, was a period of threshing and reaping.  It separated the real Israelites from the false.  At least, that's what John and Jesus preached.

The real Israel and the false Israel was defined long ago, prior to or post AD 70. It goes back to the ancient faithful., 

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

[fish153]

But it IS extremely important, geneh.  Since Satan WAS crushed under the feet of those very Romans (and their fellow believers) of THAT day, we do not justifiably blame Satan for the wickedness of the world.  Man's heart is inherently wicked.  He himself is responsible for the evil in this world.

Furthermore, most preterists would agree that preterism and its biblical approach goes far beyond the issue of last things.  IF Christ has not yet come, our salvation is not complete (we cannot go to heaven)--see Luke 21 and Romans 13.  IF Christ has not yet come and there is yet to be a Great Tribulation, Christians are prone to accept some idea that the world MUST get worse and that evil MUST flourish and expand.  This has great impact on the influence the Church has on the world around Her.  IF Christ has not yet come and we have not been raised so that physical death has no power over us, we have hope that has been deferred and it is making us sick.  IF Christ has not yet returned, He is not yet with us and we are not with Him. 

But we are already victorious.  We are citizens now of that heavenly country Abraham longed for (Heb. 11).  Death has been conquered in every significant way.  We HAVE eternal life so that we die and yet LIVE, and live and NEVER die.  That is the blessed hope--realized.  And it makes all the difference in how we view ourselves and the world around us.  We are more than conquerors NOW. 

I have been fully resurrected already, so that when the life of my physical seed-body ends, it, like all seeds, dies and that which is unlike that which is planted emerges--a spiritual yet actual and real body fitted for that realm that flesh and blood cannot inherit  (1 Cor. 15).  Again, THAT is the blessed hope realized. 

It is fine if you do not want to debate preterists and I appreciate that you have come here and not thrown the H-word around.  But I believe as time continues to pass that futurism will continue to decline as it continues to add more years to "soon" and "near" and continues to advocate a pessimistic worldview that portrays a defeated Church looking for escape instead of a Church victorious in the realized presence of Her Lord!

Yes, man's heart is very wicked.  But I think one must go back and see that Satan is behind many attacks on Israel. Here is one instance:

"Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel". (2 Samuel 1:21)

David's heart was wicked, but Satan "incited" him to number Israel.  Now, if Satan can incite a man of God, the very King of Israel to move against God's will, how much more easily for him to move the ungodly to "move against Israel"?

In the 1940's Satan incited the Nazi's to murder Jews. 6 million of them were murdered. This was a Satanic act--and anti-semitism continues to be a satanic incitement to this very day. As I have pointed out before, the timing of this murderous act was no coincidence. It occurred as the movement began to restore Israel to it's own land.  Satan made a valiant, yet insane attempt to remove the Jews from earth---but he failed.

3 Years later what he fought against happened----the Jews returned to their own land.  In 1948 Israel became a nation again. Yes, Satan was crushed when Jesus defeated him on the cross.  But it was a defeat that would show itself through time.  Satan is still running free on this earth.  And as time passes, he is further and further cornered----and He becomes increasingly more angry!  He knows his time is short!

We are coming very close to the climax of prophetic events.  And part of that climax is the appearance of naysayers who claim Christ has ALREADY RETURNED, and who mock at those who "wait" for the appearing of Jesus Christ a second time to earth. Preterism is a fulfillment of prophecy.  And those who embrace it are fulfilling the very words of the Bible.  How amazing!

[raggthyme13]

We are coming very close to the climax of prophetic events.  And part of that climax is the appearance of naysayers who claim Christ has ALREADY RETURNED, and who mock at those who "wait" for the appearing of Jesus Christ a second time to earth. Preterism is a fulfillment of prophecy.  And those who embrace it are fulfilling the very words of the Bible.  How amazing!

Hi fish,

I assume you refer to 2 Peter 3:3. This has been addressed many times.. preterists are saying Jesus has returned. But the scoffers in Peter's day were mocking the promise of Christ's coming in judgment, since it hadn't yet happened. See:


Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


Peter goes on to say that these men were willfully ignorant of the fact that God had judged the world that then was with a flood. It is a CRAZY stretch to say that preterists believe or teach anything of the sort.

If I'm incorrect in my assumption, please tell me which verse you do refer to.

[fish153]

We are coming very close to the climax of prophetic events.  And part of that climax is the appearance of naysayers who claim Christ has ALREADY RETURNED, and who mock at those who "wait" for the appearing of Jesus Christ a second time to earth. Preterism is a fulfillment of prophecy.  And those who embrace it are fulfilling the very words of the Bible.  How amazing!

Hi fish,

I assume you refer to 2 Peter 3:3. This has been addressed many times.. preterists are saying Jesus has returned. But the scoffers in Peter's day were mocking the promise of Christ's coming in judgment, since it hadn't yet happened. See:


Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


Peter goes on to say that these men were willfully ignorant of the fact that God had judged the world that then was with a flood. It is a CRAZY stretch to say that preterists believe or teach anything of the sort.

If I'm incorrect in my assumption, please tell me which verse you do refer to.

raggthyme---

Peter is not talking about scoffers then----he is referring to scoffers now.  I must point out that 2 Peter 3 says that the flood destroyed the world that then was, and BY THE SAME WORD fire has been reserved to destroy the earth in the future. This means that BOTH events are LITERAL.

There was literally a flood in the days of Noah and the world was destroyed.  By that SAME WORD (same command of God) there will literally be a destruction of the world by fire.

Those who teach Christ has already returned, have a tendency to mock futurists who are waiting for the return of Christ.  They are just as much mockers as the unbelievers who state Christ is never coming back.  They stumble brethren in the faith by destroying hope in the return of Jesus to the earth. They mock God by stating that prophecy is all fulfilled, when God clearly points to his future coming to this earth.

[raggthyme13]

We are coming very close to the climax of prophetic events.  And part of that climax is the appearance of naysayers who claim Christ has ALREADY RETURNED, and who mock at those who "wait" for the appearing of Jesus Christ a second time to earth. Preterism is a fulfillment of prophecy.  And those who embrace it are fulfilling the very words of the Bible.  How amazing!

Hi fish,

I assume you refer to 2 Peter 3:3. This has been addressed many times.. preterists are saying Jesus has returned. But the scoffers in Peter's day were mocking the promise of Christ's coming in judgment, since it hadn't yet happened. See:


Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


Peter goes on to say that these men were willfully ignorant of the fact that God had judged the world that then was with a flood. It is a CRAZY stretch to say that preterists believe or teach anything of the sort.

If I'm incorrect in my assumption, please tell me which verse you do refer to.

raggthyme---

Peter is not talking about scoffers then----he is referring to scoffers now.  I must point out that 2 Peter 3 says that the flood destroyed the world that then was, and BY THE SAME WORD fire has been reserved to destroy the earth in the future. This means that BOTH events are LITERAL.

There was literally a flood in the days of Noah and the world was destroyed.  By that SAME WORD (same command of God) there will literally be a destruction of the world by fire.

Those who teach Christ has already returned, have a tendency to mock futurists who are waiting for the return of Christ.  They are just as much mockers as the unbelievers who state Christ is never coming back.  They stumble brethren in the faith by destroying hope in the return of Jesus to the earth. They mock God by stating that prophecy is all fulfilled, when God clearly points to his future coming to this earth.

Hi fish,

I would refer you to a man named John Owen who was not a full preterist, who wrote a commentary of 2Peter's Heavens and Earth. You can read it here: http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/russ-ap2o.html

I would ask you, can you quote any preterist saying anything like, "For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation"? Or even asking, "Where is the promise of His coming?" No, you will not find it because preterists do not question the coming of the Lord in judgment as these men did, they believe He indeed came when (and to whom) He said He would.

Peter, along with the other apostles, believed he was living in the "last days" (John even writes the "last hour" had come and it was evident by the many antichrists that were among them) so it is sensible to understand him as referring to scoffers in his day... reminding the brethren that in those days they would surely come walking after their own lusts and mocking the coming of the Lord. Remember, Jerusalem still stood as he wrote those words, Jesus' prophecy about her destruction had not yet come to pass. The unbelievers seemed to have reason to mock, it had been over 30 years and no desolation. But only a few short years later those who scoffed would see that Day of the Lord Peter spoke in detail about. They wouldn't be mocking for long...

[Rev20]

Nonetheless, I think the first-fruits Jews were the Hebrew Christian Mother church; the 144k spoken of in Revelation 7. 

I would like to go back to some thoughts on a future expectation of the Lord's coming, the pro's and con's from both camps. As of now I'm kind of sitting on a fence looking on both sides of it.

I am a new poster, so please bear with me.  My eschatology is partial-preterism. 

I too believe that the "foundation" of the Church is all Israel; that they were the elect of the first resurrection (Daniel 12:1-2 mentions a resurrection that is all Israel;) and that it occurred around AD70.

I believe our resurrection will occur after Satan is defeated, hopefully soon, because it appears he is loose, now.

Rev

[Rev20]

Peter is not talking about scoffers then----he is referring to scoffers now.  I must point out that 2 Peter 3 says that the flood destroyed the world that then was, and BY THE SAME WORD fire has been reserved to destroy the earth in the future. This means that BOTH events are LITERAL.

There was literally a flood in the days of Noah and the world was destroyed.  By that SAME WORD (same command of God) there will literally be a destruction of the world by fire.

Those who teach Christ has already returned, have a tendency to mock futurists who are waiting for the return of Christ.  They are just as much mockers as the unbelievers who state Christ is never coming back.  They stumble brethren in the faith by destroying hope in the return of Jesus to the earth. They mock God by stating that prophecy is all fulfilled, when God clearly points to his future coming to this earth.

Jesus baptized with fire (Lk 3:16;) fire came out of the mouths of the two witnesses in Jerusalem (Rev 11:5;) and Jesus rules the world with a sword that proceeds out of his mouth (Rev 19:15.)  It is quite a stretch to take anything Peter said literally.

In the second part, the context of Peter's statement was "last days" (2Pet 3:3.)  Jesus gave us his ministry in the last days (Heb 1:1-2,) and the day of Pentecost occurred in the last days (Acts 2:17.)  Additionally, Paul was speaking in the present tense when he stated the "last days" were perilous times (2Tim 3:1-9, particularly verse 9;) plus James was speaking in the present tense in James 5:3.

I am one who believes the earth lasts forever because of Eccl 1:4; Ps 104:5; Isa 45:18; Jn 3:17, 12:47; Eph 3:21; Rev 11:15, 11:18, 21:24, and 22:2.  Those last four verses, from the Revelation, reveal that Jesus reigns forever on the earth (11:15;) God will not destroy the earth, but rather will destroy those who destroy the earth (11:18;) and there will still be kings and nations in the "new heaven and new earth" (21:24, 22:2.)  Revelation 22:2 reveals that not only are there still nations, but they require healing from the leaves of the tree of life.  How could Rev 22:2 be referring to anything but nations on the good old "mother" earth?

Rev

[beforetime]

I am a new poster, so please bear with me.  My eschatology is partial-preterism. 

I too believe that the "foundation" of the Church is all Israel; that they were the elect of the first resurrection (Daniel 12:1-2 mentions a resurrection that is all Israel;) and that it occurred around AD70.

I believe our resurrection will occur after Satan is defeated, hopefully soon, because it appears he is loose, now.

Rev

The all Israel mentioned I believe were the first fruits as mentioned, however not all Israel is Israel.  It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Romans 9:6 The all Israel saved is spiritual Israel, true believers.

There are different scenario's as I understand it concerning the millennium and the nature of it. That is past, present and future. Past Satan was bound through the transition from the crucifixion to the destruction of the temple in AD 70,OC to NC. Post AD 70 Satan was destroyed! "FP view" Then there is the take he was bound following the cross. That is he is limited from stopping the building of the spiritual temple. "Calvin" The there is the other that Christ will reign for a thousand years bring an end to sin.

Getting back to Daniel 12 There is a time indicator concerning the time of the resurrection in that chapter according to the full preterist view.

Daniel 12:7 "when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."

Who are the holy people and when were they shattered seems to be the time of the resurrection. Daniel 12:1,2

Larry

[LetGodBeTrue]

This puzzled me.  Why do believers, who recognized the despicable depravity of the fallen human heart and its propensity to commit all atrocities, feel that such an entity as Satan must be behind the horrendous evils in the world.  The heart IS deceitful and desperately wicked is it not!  The evil in the world is easily, justifiably, and logically laid firmly and appropriately at the feet of man and not some fallen angel!

Furthermore, Paul clearly told those of his day that Satan was to SOON be CRUSHED under THEIR feet.  Where in the Bible does it ever state that Satan is the cause behind the world's evil and wickedness?

[Rev20]

The all Israel mentioned I believe were the first fruits as mentioned, however not all Israel is Israel.  It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Romans 9:6 The all Israel saved is spiritual Israel, true believers.

There are different scenario's as I understand it concerning the millennium and the nature of it. That is past, present and future. Past Satan was bound through the transition from the crucifixion to the destruction of the temple in AD 70,OC to NC. Post AD 70 Satan was destroyed! "FP view" Then there is the take he was bound following the cross. That is he is limited from stopping the building of the spiritual temple. "Calvin" The there is the other that Christ will reign for a thousand years bring an end to sin.

Getting back to Daniel 12 There is a time indicator concerning the time of the resurrection in that chapter according to the full preterist view.

Daniel 12:7 "when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."

Who are the holy people and when were they shattered seems to be the time of the resurrection. Daniel 12:1,2

Larry

Larry, I see it much the same way.  I do however believe that when Paul was writing about "all Israel" (Rom 11:25-26), he was referring only to those of Israel, and not to the Gentiles.  Paul went to great lengths to distinguish between the Gentiles and the Jews in his discussion of natural vs wild branches.  But I also believe that "all Israel" included only those who the Lord called to serve him--the remnant (Rom 11:4-5,) plus those who called upon the name of the Lord.  Joel explains their deliverance this way:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." -- Joel 2:32

I believe Satan was bound soon after the destruction of Jerusalem, after he lost many of his children in the destruction of Jerusalem. Compare these two passages:

In the first, the Lord tells us that Jerusalem deceived all nations:

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." -- Rev 18:23

In the second, the Lord binds Satan so he can no longer deceive the nations, until released after a long time:

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." --   Rev 20:1-3

I believe Satan has been released in the past 50-100 years, and is going after the church, world-wide.

Rev

[Rev20]

Furthermore, Paul clearly told those of his day that Satan was to SOON be CRUSHED under THEIR feet.  Where in the Bible does it ever state that Satan is the cause behind the world's evil and wickedness?

My version, the King James, words it slightly different:

"And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen." -- Rom 16:20

That is in line with Young's Literal Translation

"and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen"

The original Greek word, suntribo, has a wide range of meanings, from "bruise" to "crush completey." I am unsure how the translators determine which is which.  But, in the two translations I quoted, Paul's statement is not too far removed from the original curse against the serpent:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." -- Gen 3:15

Whatever the case, Satan was bruised, but he is by no means through.

Rev

[LetGodBeTrue]

It is clear that the bruising or crushing of Satan was to happen in that time frame involving those living Romans (and by extension other believers) of Paul's world.  This bruising/crushing was to take place SHORTLY. 

This is fulfilled in the events of the book of Revelation--events which were to happen SHORTLY because the time for their fulfillment was NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).  The final downfall of Satan was in that pre-AD 70 time frame which was then AT HAND!  In Chapter 12, John saw Satan fall from heaven.  Satan knew that his time was short (12:12).  His end was AT HAND.  In chapter 20, he is finally defeated and cast into the lake of fire.  All of these events fall between the time indicators given in both the first and last chapters of the book.  Again, John was shown those things which were in his day to shortly take place because the time for their fulfillment was THEN near (chapter 1 and chapter 22).  Satan is defeated and has no more reign over men.

[fish153]

This puzzled me.  Why do believers, who recognized the despicable depravity of the fallen human heart and its propensity to commit all atrocities, feel that such an entity as Satan must be behind the horrendous evils in the world.  The heart IS deceitful and desperately wicked is it not!  The evil in the world is easily, justifiably, and logically laid firmly and appropriately at the feet of man and not some fallen angel!

Furthermore, Paul clearly told those of his day that Satan was to SOON be CRUSHED under THEIR feet.  Where in the Bible does it ever state that Satan is the cause behind the world's evil and wickedness?

Once again, I will paste what I put in a post below:

Yes, man's heart is very wicked.  But I think one must go back and see that Satan is behind many attacks on Israel. Here is one instance:

"Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel". (2 Samuel 1:21)

David's heart was wicked, but Satan "incited" him to number Israel.  Now, if Satan can incite a man of God, the very King of Israel to move against God's will, how much more easily for him to move the ungodly to "move against Israel"?

In the 1940's Satan incited the Nazi's to murder Jews. 6 million of them were murdered. This was a Satanic act--and anti-semitism continues to be a satanic incitement to this very day. As I have pointed out before, the timing of this murderous act was no coincidence. It occurred as the movement began to restore Israel to it's own land.  Satan made a valiant, yet insane attempt to remove the Jews from earth---but he failed.

[3 Resurrections]

This post has been on my mind for several years now to add a comment.  The original poster gave an honest request for scriptural proof of a final third coming of Christ, and I believe scripture does supply us with that proof.   

All the saints from creation forward were ultimately promised an equal inheritance after death.  That inheritance is a physically-resurrected body changed into an incorruptible state like that of "Christ the First-fruits" and the "Firstborn from among the dead".  It would not make sense for there to be a resurrection in AD 70 giving that inheritance to the resurrected saints back then, and exclude any saints dying after that date from receiving a like inheritance. 

The "FIRST Resurrection" of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised bodily with Him in AD 33 had to be followed by AT LEAST a SECOND resurrection event.  All these of the "First Resurrection" were undeniably raised in physical forms that could be seen and touched.

As Preterists, we understand that the SECOND resurrection took place in AD 70.  But that leaves all the rest of the saints dying after that AD 70 date with the expectation of a like inheritance that requires the same kind of fulfillment.  Is it possible to prove from scripture that a third bodily resurrection in the future will take place?  I believe it is.

To spare myself the effort of copying the textual proof I have already written elsewhere, here is the link to where those verses were already covered:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/your-hero-nero/   (reply # 23)

I would also like to address some of Jarrod's comment #6 earlier on this post.  To quote his statement, "I do allow for the possibility of a future event, though I'm not sure I'd call it an 'advent'."  Jarrod then quoted I Cor. 15:24 that described the orderly progression of events when those "in Christ" would be "made alive". 

"But every man in his own order: Christ the First-fruits;" (the "First Resurrection") "AFTERWARD they that are Christ's at his coming" (which would be the second resurrection).  "THEN COMETH THE END, WHEN HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." 

That end of "all rule and all authority and power" would be when the members of the appointed high priesthood rulers of the Jews and the remnants of that operating Levitical priesthood were destroyed, and the tribal records proving their priestly lineage were burned up. 

That end of power also included when the angelic divine council was disbanded for the duration of the New Covenant Age (Heb. 2:5).  Satan also, the "prince of the power of the air", and his hold over the kingdoms of the world were destroyed when he and his angels were burned to ashes in Jerusalem's AD 70 Lake of Fire in the city (Rev. 11:15, 28:2, and  Is. 24:21-23, 27:1, and Ezekiel 28:18-19).

What Jarrod highlighted from this I Cor. 15:23 verse was the phrase "when He shall have DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER;".  As Jarrod said in reply #6, "Other verses seem to indicate that the Lord's reign from heaven will last forever.  I'm not sure what 'delivering up the kingdom' looks like.  Maybe it doesn't look much different from what comes before it."

Some comments on this uncertainty: "Delivering up the kingdom to God, even the Father" is NOT talking about a transfer of kingdom AUTHORITY from Christ over to His Father at that point of the end.  It is a picture of Christ presenting all the RESURRECTED CHILDREN of the kingdom to His Father on that resurrection day in AD 70. 

As Paul phrased it by quoting the OT: "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM THOU HAST GIVEN ME."  This was the entire group of resurrected saints in AD 70 being proudly delivered up to God the Father by a triumphant Christ presenting them to God, even the Father.  To actually "Behold" these children of God would have required a visible, tangible, incorruptibly-changed resurrected body like Christ's that could have been seen.

The Jude 24 verse also mentions the occasion of Christ delivering up the kingdom with all its resurrected children of God to the Father.  "Now to Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to PRESENT YOU FAULTLESS BEFORE THE PRESENCE OF HIS GLORY WITH EXCEEDING JOY, to the only wise God our Savior be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever.  Amen."

And as I have stated before, none of this accomplished work of a resurrection of the saints in AD 70 eliminates A THIRD COMING with a final resurrection for the saints in our future.  Anybody attempting to prove from scripture that a third resurrection event is not possible will labor in vain to find verses proving that point.

[robycop3]

  No, Jesus was only resurrected ONCE, as He only died once.  And He hasn't physically returned since He rose to heaven in fronta the disciples.

He did NOT return in 70AD. That's nowhere in Scripture. His ONLY physical return is still future, & it'll be seen by everyone & be permanent. (However, He IS spiritually present, as He said, whenever/wherever two or more are gathered in His name.)

[3 Resurrections]

Good afternoon, my vigilant anti-Preterist friend,

What in the world are you talking about?  Did I ever hint that Christ was resurrected or died more than once?  Huh?

The second resurrection was when Christ fulfilled Zechariah 15:4-5 and came from heaven with all His holy ones, the angels, (as in the imminent coming that Jude 14 promised), and stood on the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem to gather His resurrected elect from all points of the compass.   The evidence of Zechariah's prophesied earthquake in Zech. 14:4-5 is lying today on the slopes of the Mount of Olives.  TWO layers of earthquake rubble landslide, from the one in King Uzziah's days, and the top layer of rubble filling up the valley which was deposited in the AD 70 time period, by archaeological estimation.  You have to read the correct rendering of Zech. 14:4-5 in the LXX to catch the correct fulfillment of the prophecy.

That rubble field lying on the slopes of the Mount of Olives today from that first-century earthquake shaking the mountain is Christ's "calling card", so to speak, from His second coming.  If you literally can't see that, then that's your problem, not mine.

The rapture of the newly-resurrected saints and those who had already been raised to life from the dead earlier, but who had "remained" on the earth (as in I Thess. 4) were all gathered together by Christ in AD 70 and brought with Him back to heaven.  It was at that time that Christ proudly "presented them faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy".  This was when He "delivered up" the children of the kingdom to the Father.

As I said above - none of this excludes a physical resurrection for the bodies of the saints in our future.  Though the vast  majority of Preterists, both partial and full categories, do not acknowledge three resurrections events taking place over the span of human history, this does not change the facts as laid out in scripture.

[robycop3]

Good afternoon, my vigilant anti-Preterist friend,

What in the world are you talking about?  Did I ever hint that Christ was resurrected or died more than once?  Huh?

  Why, it's in your very handle ! And right below, you speak of a 2ND RESURRECTION !

The second resurrection was when Christ fulfilled Zechariah 15:4-5 and came from heaven with all His holy ones, the angels, (as in the imminent coming that Jude 14 promised), and stood on the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem to gather His resurrected elect from all points of the compass.   The evidence of Zechariah's prophesied earthquake in Zech. 14:4-5 is lying today on the slopes of the Mount of Olives.  TWO layers of earthquake rubble landslide, from the one in King Uzxiah's days, and the top layer of rubble filling up the valley which was deposited in the AD 70 time period, by archaeological estimation.  You have to read the correct rendering of Zech. 14:4-5 in the LXX to catch the correct fulfillment of the prophecy.

  THAT EVENT hasn't yet occurred. Jesus has NOT yet returned, & Scripture says there'll be a great valley made when the MOL splits. it won't happen til Jesus returns physically, SEEN BY ALL.

That rubble field lying on the slopes of the Mount of Olives today from that first-century earthquake shaking the mountain is Christ's "calling card", do you speak, from His second coming.  If you literally can't see that, then that's your problem, not mine.

  There's NO great valley between the halves of the mt. as Scripture says there'll be. But there's a large fault underneath the mt. which'll bust when Jesus "touches down" atop the mt.

The rapture of the newly-resurrected saints and those who had already been raised to life from the dead earlier, but who had "remained" on the earth (as in I Thess. 4) were all gathered together by Christ in AD 70 and brought with Him back to heaven.  It was at that time that Christ proudly "presented them faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy".  This was when He "delivered up" the children of the kingdom to the Father.

Hasn't yet happened, except in prets' imagination. !

As I said above- none of this excludes a physical resurrection for the bodies of the saints in our future.  Though the vast  majority of Preterists, both partial and full categories, do not acknowledge three resurrections events taking place over the span of human history, this does not change the facts as laid out in scripture.

  These facts simply haven't yet happened.

Zech. 14:4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

  No very large valley there now, nor has there been, in history ! So much for more wrong pret guesswork !

[3 Resurrections]

No, robycop3, I have never said Christ was raised from the dead multiple times.  I have said that there are THREE resurrection events, of which Christ was the "First Resurrection" event taking place during Passover week of AD 33. 

The second resurrection took place in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day, when Christ bodily returned to the Mount of Olives.  Every resurrected eye saw Him, including a few of those living at that time who were present at the Jerusalem location to witness this, as Christ promised that some listening to Him would not die until they saw Him return in glory with His angels, and with rewards for the saints.

The third resurrection in our future I believe scripture patterns show us will occur in AD 3033 at the time of year when the Feast of Tabernacles used to take place.

Every one of these three resurrections involve physical bodies of the saints rising out of the grave, to be changed into an incorruptible state, fit for being presented faultless before God's presence.

You have stated before that you find the KJV to be inferior, I believe, even though you still use it for some study work.  I, too, find the KJV rendering of Zechariah 14:4-5 inferior to the LXX rendering, which says "And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave asunder, half of it toward the east and the west, a very great division; and half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south.  AND THE VALLEY OF MY MOUNTAINS SHALL BE *CLOSED UP*, and the valley of my mountains shall be joined on to Azal, and shall be BLOCKED UP, as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Him."  That is TWO earthquakes that Zechariah mentions, which is exactly the two dated layers of rubble that archaeologists have found filling up the Kidron Valley today.

Jerusalem sits on a seismic fault line running up the Kidron Valley.  There was an AD 70 earthquake that caused the mountain to produce a landslide of rubble leaning in all directions just as Zechariah predicted, filling up the Kidron Valley as far as Azal, (called the "Wadi Yasul" in Arabic today if you are looking for it on a map) which is just south of Jerusalem.    You can deny it all day long if you wish, but that landslide of rubble lying on the slopes of the Mount of Olives isn't going anywhere.  It's proof that Jesus returned WHERE and WHEN He said He would bodily return for His saints.

Others posts have written about this Azal location and the earthquake.  On this forum, you might try looking up the post "Ye shall NOT flee to Azal" written back in 2012, and also "The prophet which the Preterist hates", with the comments made by the poster called "HeRoseFromTheDead" about these Zech. 14:4-5 verses.

[robycop3]

  Nice try, Chief, but still wrong.  Jesus didn't RETURN TP EARTH on that day; He hadn't left it yet. He returned to HEAVEN. And He did NOT return in 70 AD. That event occurred 40 days after His resurrection. And the "first pentecost" occurred long before 70 AD, as Peter was obviously still alive & preaching.

  And there was no split with a valley on the Mt. of Olives in historical times. That area has been continuously inhabited for millenia, & such an event would not have gone unnoticed. You're simply guessing again.

  I pointed out some LITERAL fulfillment of prophecy going on now that proves preterism wrong bit by bit, especially Isaiah 19 & the several prophecies that Judah & Israel will be restored. The restoration of Judah is happening right now, but not completed, as over half the Jews still live outside Israel. But they have plans to build a new temple in Jerusalem, already have the building materials ready, & are breeding the animals to be used in temple rites. (They bred red heifers a few years ago.)

  Egypt's punishment is easing up some also. While Egypt is still quite-poor, work is picking up, and they've made peace with Israel, & just last week, signed a contract with Israel to buy a large quantity of natural gas from Israel.  And the literal fulfullment of the rest of Isaiah 19 will occur before too long, as well as the latter verses of Ezekiel 28.

  I am age 71, & in my time I've seen Israel become the "pound-for-pound" military champ of all time, & now their wealth & might is increasing almost daily. Some of their pilots train in our Top Gun school, & their military has cutting-edge electronix & weapons. They're beginning to exploit the mineral wealth of the Dead Sea, & will profit handsomely from their gas sales to Egypt.

  I know that the Jews still reject Jesus, but God made a promise which He will unconditionally keep, and some day, He will purge unbelief from the Jews, as well as the resta Israel when their national identity among the nations becomes known. You SHOULD be able to see God's hand at work in Israel today!

  Now, who do you suppose the rest of Israel to be? While I'm not at all a "British Israelite", the fact is, the US & Britain have been the Jews' greatest friends for the last 150 years.Britain was instrumental in the founding of modern Israel, while the US was responsible for arming her with modern weapons, & providing financial aid, as well as making a defense agreement with her. And Trump's moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem is very-telling.

I'll take FACTS over opinion & guesswork any day !

[lea]

robycop3,
Not even close!
The only time God made provisions for Judah in the N.T. was with the remnant of Israel - before 70Ad.

God of Israel always secured a faithful remnant from Israel. And one third would come through "the fire" (Zech 13 ) in the Roman /Jewish war.  We know that they are part of the "true Israel." Born again Gentiles are the other. In Isa. 65-66, God planned to make a new covenant with house of Israel.
That new covenant was Christ. Jews were no longer God's chosen after 70 AD.

As far as Isa.19, with Judah, Egypt and Assyria- This projection of forgiveness for them also lies in God's gospel graces. They are promised a highway for forgiveness in Christ. Israel was sent to both countries in their diasporas, but there would be a highway for the forgiveness of sins.

  44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48"You are witnesses of these things. 49"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high." (Luke 24) emph. mine.

You will never get anywhere saying Jesus will physically return when He himself said "My kingdom is not of this world."

So no millennium, btw!

And no third coming.  Believers go to Him when they die. 

[robycop3]

  Jesus has come only once so far, but He will return, as He said. he plainly said so in Matt. 24:29-30 & in Rev. 19. You may disregard those Scriptures if you choose, but I believe them.

[lea]

  Jesus has come only once so far, but He will return, as He said. he plainly said so in Matt. 24:29-30 & in Rev. 19. You may disregard those Scriptures if you choose, but I believe them.

Matt.24:25-28,  25 Behold, I have told it to you beforehand. 26 So if they say to you, 'He is in the desert,' do not go out there; if they say, 'He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.[a] 27 For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

[robycop3]

Matt.24:25-28,  25 Behold, I have told it to you beforehand. 26 So if they say to you, 'He is in the desert,' do not go out there; if they say, 'He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.[a] 27 For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

  Yes, EVERYONE will see His return. It won't be secret ! But, it's not happened yet.

[3 Resurrections]

That Rev. 1:7 verse reads, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and EVERY EYE will see him, EVEN" (which means "SPECIFICALLY" or "NAMELY") "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so.  Amen."

This was not going to be every person on the globe being given a simultaneous view of the returning Christ.  It was SPECIFICALLY every eye of THE GENERATION OF ISRAEL'S TRIBES THAT PIERCED CHRIST.   No other generation except that of the tribes in that first-century was guilty of physically piercing the Savior, just as the martyr Stephen accused his generation of being "the betrayers and murderers" of the Just One. 

Zechariah 12:10-14 even names examples of  specific families from the tribes of Levi and Judah who would be doing this wailing and mourning.  Those who were going weep and gnash their teeth at being thrust out of the kingdom were going to be those who claimed "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets."  (Luke 13:26).  This claim could ONLY be true of ONE GENERATION who PERSONALLY had Christ walk among them.  That ONE GENERATION of the first century tribes of Israel was the one that did the mourning and "wailing" when they saw Christ return.

If this reference to "tribes of the earth" truly meant the citizens of the entire globe's nations, then believers among all those nations would have no reason whatever to "wail" and mourn when they saw their Savior in the resurrection.  This would be an occasion of great rejoicing for them - not mourning.

It all hinges on the definition of the little Greek word "kai" in Rev1:7.   "...EVEN" (kai, meaning "namely" or "specifically") "those who pierced him...".   The word "kai" can either be used as we would use the conjunction "and" (meaning "also" or "in addition to"), or the word "kai" can be used alternatively in an EXPLANATORY sense, such as in Rev. 1:6.  "And made us a kingdom, priests to his God AND (kai, meaning "namely") Father...".   

As for some additional evidence that Christ already physically returned and stood on the Mount of Olives back in AD 70, causing an earthquake with the mountain's rocks sliding downhill to "block up" the valley as far as Azal, here is a quote from an article from bible study tools.com on the Kidron Valley.

"Recent excavations have brought to light the fact that the old bed of the Kidron is about 40 feet lower than its present bed, and about 70 feet nearer the sanctuary wall."

Other sources date the deposit of this top layer to the AD 70 era.  That means there is already around 40 feet of earthquake landslide rubble that has BLOCKED UP THE KIDRON VALLEY, exactly as Zechariah 15:4-5 in the LXX prophesied for Christ's bodily return.

For robycop3, your comments in reply #55 are as militaristic as that of any first-century Zealot.  They, too, were mainly interested in building up their nation of Israel militarily, in order to conquer their Roman oppressors and to establish an independent nation that would have ruled the nations around them.  Such was never God's ultimate plan for His kingdom's expansion.  Indeed, when Christ knew that the eager men of Israel who had just seen the miracle of the loaves and fishes were going to take Him by force and make Him a king over them, He went and hid Himself from them to thwart their plans (John 6:15).

If Christ were standing in front of you today, He would tell you the same thing regarding the vanity of your militaristic expectations for the modern nation of Israel.  This is NOT the method God uses to build His kingdom in the hearts of men.  "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the  methods of our warfare are NOT CARNAL, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong-holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." - II Cor. 10:3-5.

[robycop3]

That Rev. 1:7 verse reads, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and EVERY EYE will see him, EVEN" (which means "SPECIFICALLY" or "NAMELY") "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so.  Amen."

This was not going to be every person on the globe being given a simultaneous view of the returning Christ.  It was SPECIFICALLY every eye of THE GENERATION OF ISRAEL'S TRIBES THAT PIERCED CHRIST.   No other generation except that of the tribes in that first-century was guilty of physically piercing the Savior, just as the martyr Stephen accused his generation of being "the betrayers and murderers" of the Just One.

  Well, all those who pierced Him are now dead, & He hasn't yet returned, so your notion goes "POOF!"

Zechariah 12:10-14 even names examples of  specific families from the tribes of Levi and Judah who would be doing this wailing and mourning.  Those who were going weep and gnash their teeth at being thrust out of the kingdom were going to be those who claimed "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets."  (Luke 13:26).  This claim could ONLY be true of ONE GENERATION who PERSONALLY had Christ walk among them.  That ONE GENERATION of the first century tribes of Israel was the one that did the mourning and "wailing" when they saw Christ return.

  But they haven't seen Christ return cuz HE HASN'T YET RETURNED! Get over it & accept the FACTS !

If this reference to "tribes of the earth" truly meant the citizens of the entire globe's nations, then believers among all those nations would have no reason whatever to "wail" and mourn when they saw their Savior in the resurrection.  This would be an occasion of great rejoicing for them - not mourning.

  But UNbelievers would have EVERY reasom to wail & mourn, as they'll realize they're now lost forever.

It all hinges on the definition of the little Greek word "kai" in Rev1:7.   "...EVEN" (kai, meaning "namely" or "specifically") "those who pierced him...".   The word "kai" can either be used as we would use the conjunction "and" (meaning "also" or "in addition to"), or the word "kai" can be used alternatively in an EXPLANATORY sense, such as in Rev. 1:6.  "And made us a kingdom, priests to his God AND (kai, meaning "namely") Father...".

  Those who pierced Him are now dead, & He hasn't yet returned. But they'll see His return from hades, as will the righteous. 

As for some additional evidence that Christ already physically returned and stood on the Mount of Olives back in AD 70, causing an earthquake with the mountain's rocks sliding downhill to "block up" the valley as far as Azal, here is a quote from an article from bible study tools.com on the Kidron Valley.

"Recent excavations have brought to light the fact that the old bed of the Kidron is about 40 feet lower than its present bed, and about 70 feet nearer the sanctuary wall."

Other sources date the deposit of this top layer to the AD 70 era.  That means there is already around 40 feet of earthquake landslide rubble that has BLOCKED UP THE KIDRON VALLEY, exactly as Zechariah 15:4-5 in the LXX prophesied for Christ's bodily return.

  But Scripture does not say that'll be a temporary valley, & the MOO has NOT been split so its halves moved in opposite directions.

For robycop3, your comments in reply #55 are as militaristic as that of any first-century Zealot.  They, too, were mainly interested in building up their nation of Israel militarily, in order to conquer their Roman oppressors and to establish an independent nation that would have ruled the nations around them.  Such was never God's ultimate plan for His kingdom's expansion.  Indeed, when Christ knew that the eager men of Israel who had just seen the miracle of the loaves and fishes were going to take Him by force and make Him a king over them, He went and hid Himself from them to thwart their plans (John 6:15).

  You cannot deny Israel's military might for such a small nation with any common sense. Their might isn't to conquer, but to make sure they're not conquered again. And it seemstabee working, as most of the diaper-heads are hesitant to provoke Israel now.

If Christ were standing in front of you today, He would tell you the same thing regarding the vanity of your militaristic expectations for the modern nation of Israel.  This is NOT the method God uses to build His kingdom in the hearts of men.  "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the  methods of our warfare are NOT CARNAL, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong-holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." - II Cor. 10:3-5.

  And you jolly-well know Israel is NOT a Christian nation, altho they tolerate the vast numbers of Christians that come to visit the Christian shrines in Jerusalem & Bethlehem. (As well as the vast number of Moslems that come to the Dome & Al-Aqsa mosque.)

  And Israel has a "Don't-tread-on-me" policy insteada a conquering one. But they won't occupy the WHOLE "Promised Land" til the rest of Israel, the "lost ten tribes", becomes known.

[lea]

robycop3,

You have no concept of time statements in the Bible. You lack any parallels in scripture to help you construct even a semi-believable opinion!

The 12 tribes of Israel were all found by God. Rev.21( He never lost them even in the diaspora). And all was to happen "soon" in John's days.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: emph. by lea

The Jerusalem above became a reality. The old Jerusalem was in bondage with her children- and the power of the "holy people" (unbelieving Israel) was obviously shattered in AD70.

Matt.24:  29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[robycop3]

MMRRPP  !  WRONG !

  Those events simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED. The same Jerusalem that was rebuilt after 70 AD is still there, right now. It's NOT made of gold, nor is it 1500 miles high. And God isn't living in it now!

  The New J won't come til the millenium is over.

I SUGGEST YOU STUDY AND BELIEVE SCRIPTURE MORE ! Your pret junk is 'way off kilter !

  You may keep hollering "at hand", soon" til you turn green, but the simple, obvious TRUTH is, THOSE THINGS HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED ! You simply CAN'T prove otherwise !

[lea]

MMRRPP  !  WRONG !

  Those events simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED. The same Jerusalem that was rebuilt after 70 AD is still there, right now. It's NOT made of gold, nor is it 1500 miles high. And God isn't living in it now!

  The New J won't come til the millenium is over.

I SUGGEST YOU STUDY AND BELIEVE SCRIPTURE MORE ! Your pret junk is 'way off kilter !

  You may keep hollering "at hand", soon" til you turn green, but the simple, obvious TRUTH is, THOSE THINGS HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED ! You simply CAN'T prove otherwise !

Maybe you should look at the Bible again. It's not me who kept saying the things were "at hand" 

[robycop3]

Maybe you should look at the Bible again. It's not me who kept saying the things were "at hand" 

Again, they simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED! Let's see ya prove otherwise !

[lea]

Again, they simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED! Let's see ya prove otherwise !

Again, you contradict Scripture by not accepting the literal meaning of "at hand."

[robycop3]

Again, you contradict Scripture by not accepting the literal meaning of "at hand."

  In other words, YOU CAN'T PROVE OTHERWISE.

[lea]

  In other words, YOU CAN'T PROVE OTHERWISE.

Thanks for proving my point!

You don't even know what "at hand" means in the Bible!

[robycop3]

Thanks for proving my point!

You don't even know what "at hand" means in the Bible!

Once again, please provide **PROOF** those prophecies were already fulfilled ! And I mean REAL PROOF/EVIDENCE, not the usual pret imagination/guesswork.