The Talmud

[notreligus]

In Judaism Talmud is considered to be on par with the Holy Bible.  Some Jews claim it to be even more authoritative.   

Christians should not oppose the Lord Jesus Christ.   Judaism is a man-made religion, even with the word "Messianic" in front of the term.   Those who are in Judaism, with perhaps the exception of the Karaites who follow the inspired WRITTEN Torah, believe the Talmud to be an authoritative book.   The Talmud has been sanitized over the years with these overtly anti-Christ and Christian comments and characterizations deleted over time.   

How many of us could think of the Holy Bible as of God if it once contained such comments about others?   Would it be OK if it once contained such statements about a Muslim?   The Holy Spirit would never inspire such things.   No one with any sense of morality would want to be associated with such a book or volumes of books.   

These are horrible but not the worst.   I have not put the worst here as it would be more pornographic than some of the statements listed here.   

This is compilation from "The Talmud Unmasked, The Secret Rabbinical Teachings Concerning Christians," which was written by Rev. I.B. Pranaitis.   I own a hard copy of this book.   I have also provided a link.


Sanhedrin, 67a -- Jesus referred to as the son of Pandira, a soldier

Kallah, 1b. (18b) -- Jesus illegitimate and conceived during menstruation.

Sanhedrin, 67a -- Hanged on the eve of Passover. Toldath Jeschu. Birth related in most shameful expressions

Abhodah Zarah II -- Jesus referred to as the son of Pandira, a Roman soldier.

Schabbath XIV. Again referred to as the son of Pandira, the Roman.

Sanhedrin, 43a -- On the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus.

Schabbath, 104b -- Called a fool and no one pays attention to fools.

Toldoth Jeschu.   Judas and Jesus engaged in quarrel with filth.

Sanhedrin, 103a. -- Suggested corrupts his morals and dishonors self.

Sanhedrin, 107b. -- Seduced, corrupted and destroyed Israel.

Zohar III, (282) -- Jesus died like a beast and buried in animal's dirt heap.

Hilkoth Melakhim -- Attempted to prove Christians err in worship of Jesus

Abhodah Zarah, 21a -- Reference to worship of Jesus in homes unwanted.

Orach Chaiim, 113 -- Avoid appearance of paying respect to Jesus.

Iore dea, 150,2 -- Do not appear to pay respect to Jesus by accident.

Abhodah Zarah (6a) -- False teachings to worship on first day of Sabbath

Hilkhoth Maakhaloth -- Christians are idolators, must not associate.

Abhodah Zarah (22a) -- Do not associate with gentiles, they shed blood.

Iore Dea (153, 2). -- Must not associate with Christians, shed blood.

Abhodah Zarah (25b). -- Beware of Christians when walking abroad with them.

Orach Chaiim (20, 2). -- Christians disguise themselves to kill Jews.

Abhodah Zarah (15b) -- Suggest Christians have sex relations with animals.

Abhodah Zarah (22a) -- Suspect Christians of intercourse with animals.

Schabbath (145b) -- Christians unclean because they eat accordingly

Abhodah Zarah (22b) -- Christians unclean because they not at Mount Sinai.

Iore Dea (198, 48). -- Clean female Jews contaminated meeting Christians.

Kerithuth (6b p. 78) -- Jews called men, Christians not called men.

Makkoth (7b) -- Innocent of murder if intent was to kill Christian.

Orach Chaiim(225, 10) -- Christians and animals grouped for comparisons.

Midrasch Talpioth 225 -- Christians created to minister to Jews always.

Orach Chaiim 57, 6a -- Christians to be pitied more than sick pigs.

Zohar II (64b) -- Christian idolators likened to cows and asses.

Kethuboth (110b). -- Psalmist compares Christians to unclean beasts.

Sanhedrin (74b). Tos. -- Sexual intercourse of Christian like that of beast.

Kethuboth (3b) -- The seed of Christian is valued as seed of beast.

Kidduschim (68a) -- Christians like the people of an ass.

Eben Haezar (44,8) -- Marriages between Christian and Jews null.

Zohar (II, 64b) -- Christian birth rate must be diminished materially.

Zohar (I, 28b) -- Christian idolators children of Eve's serpent.

Zohar (I, 131a) -- Idolatrous people (Christians) befoul the world.

Emek Haschanach(17a) -- Non-Jews' souls come from death and death's shadow.

Zohar (I, 46b, 47a) -- Souls of gentiles have unclean divine origins.

Rosch Haschanach(17a) -- Non-Jews souls go down to hell.

Iore Dea (337, 1). -- Replace dead Christians like lost cow or ass.

Iebhammoth (61a) -- Jews called men, but not Christians called men.

Abhodah Zarah (14b) T -- Forbidden to sell religious works to Christians

Abhodah Zarah (78) -- Christian churches are places of idolatry.

Iore Dea (142, 10) -- Must keep far away physically from churches.

Iore Dea (142, 15) -- Must not listen to church music or look at idols

Iore Dea (143, 1) -- Must not rebuild homes destroyed near churches.

Hilkoth Abh. Zar (10b) -- Jews must not resell broken chalices to Christians.

Chullin (91b) -- Jews possess dignity even an angel cannot share.

Sanhedrin, 58b -- To strike Israelite like slapping face of God.

Chagigah, 15b -- A Jew considered good in spite of sins he commits.

Gittin (62a) -- Jew stay away from Christian homes on holidays.

Choschen Ham. (26,1) -- Jew must not sue before a Christian judge or laws.

Choschen Ham (34,19) -- Christian or servant cannot become witnesses.

Iore Dea (112, 1). -- Avoid eating with Christians, breeds familiarity.

Abhodah Zarah (35b) -- Do not drink milk from a cow milked by Christian.

Iore dea (178, 1) -- Never imitate customs of Christians, even hair-comb.

Abhodah Zarah (72b) -- Wine touched by Christians must be thrown away.

Iore Dea (120, 1) -- Bought-dishes from Christians must be thrown away.

Abhodah Zarah (2a) -- For three days before Christian festivals, avoid all.

Abhodah Zarah (78c) -- Festivals of followers of Jesus regarded as idolatry.

Iore Dea (139, 1) -- Avoid things used by Christians in their worship.

Abhodah Zarah (14b) -- Forbidden to sell Christians articles for worship.

Iore Dea (151,1) H. -- Do not sell water to Christians articles for baptisms.

Abhodah Zarah (2a, 1) -- Do not trade with Christians on their feast days.

Abhodah Zarah (1,2) -- Now permitted to trade with Christians on such days.

Abhodah Zarah (2aT) -- Trade with Christians because they have money to pay.

Iore Dea (148, 5) -- If Christian is not devout, may send him gifts.

Hilkoth Akum (IX,2) -- Send gifts to Christians only if they are irreligious.

Iore Dea (81,7 Ha) -- Christian wet-nurses to be avoided because dangerous.

Iore Dea (153, 1 H) -- Christian nurse will lead children to heresy.

Iore Dea (155,1). -- Avoid Christian doctors not well known to neighbors.

Peaschim (25a) -- Avoid medical help from idolators, Christians meant.

Iore Dea (156,1) -- Avoid Christian barbers unless escorted by Jews.

Abhodah Zarah (26a). -- Avoid Christian midwives as dangerous when alone.

Zohar (1,25b) -- Those who do good to Christians never rise when dead.

Hilkoth Akum (X,6) -- Help needy Christians if it will promote peace.

Iore Dea (148, 12H) -- Hide hatred for Christians at their celebrations.

Abhodah Zarah (20a) -- Never praise Christians lest it be believed true.

Iore Dea (151,14) -- Not allowed to praise Christians to add to glory.

Hilkoth Akum (V, 12) -- Quote Scriptures to forbid mention of Christian god.

Iore Dea (146, 15) -- Refer to Christian religious articles with contempt.

Iore Dea (147,5) -- Deride Christian religious articles without wishes.

Hilkoth Akum (X,5) -- No gifts to Christians, gifts to converts.

Iore Dea (151,11) -- Gifts forbidden to Christians, encourages friendship.

Iore Dea (335,43) -- Exile for that Jew who sells farm to Christian.

Iore Dea (154,2) -- Forbidden to teach a trade to a Christian

Babha Bathra (54b) -- Christian property belongs to first person claiming.

Choschen Ham(183,7) -- Keep what Christian overpays in error.

Choschen Ham(226,1) -- Jew may keep lost property of Christian found by Jew.

Babha Kama (113b) -- It is permitted to deceive Christians.

Choschen Ham(183,7) -- Jews must divide what they overcharge Christians.

Choschen Ham(156,5) -- Jews must not take Christian customers from Jews.

Iore Dea (157,2) H -- May deceive Christians that believe Christian tenets.

Abhodah Zarah (54a) --Usury may be practiced upon Christians or apostates.

Iore Dea (159,1) -- Usury permitted now for any reason to Christians.

Babha Kama (113a) -- Jew may lie and perjure to condemn a Christian.

Babha Kama (113b) -- Name of God not profaned when lying to Christians.

Kallah (1b, p.18) -- Jew may perjure himself with a clear conscience.

Schabbouth Hag. (6d). -- Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording.

Zohar (1,160a). -- Jews must always try to deceive Christians.

Iore Dea (158,1) -- Do not cure Christians unless it makes enemies.

Orach Cahiim (330,2) -- Do not assist Christian's childbirth on Saturday.

Choschen Ham.(425,5) -- Unless believes in Torah do not prevent his death.

Iore Dea (158,1) -- Christians not enemies must not be saved either.

Hilkkoth Akum (X,1) -- Do not save Christians in danger of death.

Choschen Ham(386,10) -- A spy may be killed even before he confesses.

Abhodah Zorah (26b) -- Apostates to be thrown into well, not rescued.

Choschen Ham(388,15) -- Kill those who give Israelites' money to Christians

Sanhedrin (59a) -- `Prying into Jews' "Law" to get death penalty

Hilkhoth Akum(X,2) -- Baptized Jews are to be put to death

Iore Dea(158,2)Hag. -- Kill renegades who turn to Christian rituals.

Choschen Ham(425,5) -- Those who do not believe in Torah are to be killed.

Hilkhoth tesch.III,8 -- Christians and others deny the "Law" of the Torah.

Zohar (I,25a) -- Christians are to be destroyed as idolators.

Zohar (II,19a) -- Captivity of Jews end when Christian princes die.

Zohar (I,219b) -- Princes of Christians are idolators, must die.

Obadiam -- When Rome is destroyed, Israel will be redeemed.

Abhodah Zarah(26b) T. -- "Even the best of the Goim should be killed."

Sepher Or Israel 177b -- If Jew kills Christian commits no sin.

Ialkut Simoni (245c) -- Shedding blood of impious offers sacrifice to God.

Zohar (II, 43a) -- Extermination of Christians necessary sacrifice.

Zohar (L,28b,39a) -- High place in heaven for those who kill idolators.

Hilkhoth Akum(X,1) -- Make no agreements and show no mercy to Christians

Hilkhoth Akum (X,1) -- Either turn them away from their idols or kill.

Hilkhoth Akum (X,7) -- Allow no idolators to remain where Jews are strong.

Choschen Ham(388,16) -- All contribute to expense of killing traitor.

Pesachim (49b) -- No need of prayers while beheading on Sabbath.

Schabbath (118a). -- Prayers to save from punishment of coming Messiah.


http://www.iahushua.com/JQ/factsR4.html


Christ came to redeem the lost sheep of Israel along with all of the nations.   He should not be mocked but should be praised.   

[DaveW]

    

NR, how many times do I need to tell you the Messianics (at least most of us) do NOT consider the talmuds to be authoritative?  They are useful for historical information and descriptions of first century practice, but are NOT inspired nor are we under any obligation to follow their instructions.

Second - the Zohar is NOT talmud.  It is the mystical writings followed by the Chassidic Jews.
The Midrash writings are also NOT Talmud.

Your list includes both as part of Talmud.  Since that book's author seems to not know the difference, I would be very skeptical of anything written therein.

[notreligus]

   

NR, how many times do I need to tell you the Messianics (at least most of us) do NOT consider the talmuds to be authoritative?  They are useful for historical information and descriptions of first century practice, but are NOT inspired nor are we under any obligation to follow their instructions.

Second - the Zohar is NOT talmud.  It is the mystical writings followed by the Chassidic Jews.
The Midrash writings are also NOT Talmud.

Your list includes both as part of Talmud.  Since that book's author seems to not know the difference, I would be very skeptical of anything written therein.

This is not your personal forum, although you treat it as such.   You are not the only Messianic in the world.   There are many Messianics who consider the Talmud a holy book that they honor still today.   

I am not lying about anything but you keep implying that I am and I am very tired of it!   

This is a slight detour but I recall having to correct you about Dispensationalism.   You've stated things like, "Well, all of my life I've known Dispensationalism to teach this and that," and I have clearly shown here, multiple times, that there are many Dispensational views that you do not know about.   

Can you prove to me and everyone else that the inspired written Holy Bible with 66 Books is the one and only text that all Messianics in the world use as authoritative teachings?   I don't care if it's a Jewish Bible with a different order of Books.   You'll try to make something out of that if I don't bring it up now. 

I have learned a lot of things from a lot of people here.   You might learn something if you'll come down off your high horse.   

[notreligus]

http://ourrabbis.org/main/halakhah-mainmenu-26/introduction-mainmenu-27/sources-mainmenu-28

This a link to a web site concerning Halakchic authority and Messianic Rabbis.   This is the definition of the Halakhah:

Ha-la-khah

[hah-law-khuh; Sephardic Hebrew hah-lah-khah; Ashkenazic Hebrew hah-law-khaw]   

Word Origin 

noun, plural Halakhahs Hebrew, Halakhoth, Halakhot, Halakhos 

[Sephardic Hebrew hah-lah-khawt; Ashkenazic Hebrew hah-law-khohs]
 
1. the entire body of Jewish law and tradition comprising the laws of the Bible, the oral law as transcribed in the legal portion of the Talmud, and subsequent legal codes amending or modifying traditional precepts to conform to contemporary conditions.

2. a law or tradition established by the Halakhah.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Halakhah

[notreligus]

The oral teachings of the Talmud can be traced back to a beginning two thousand years ago.    It is argued that these teachings are not relevant today as the Jews had different sentiments then, and were part of a different culture, etc.   However rabbis encourage Jews to come up with new Mishnah even today.   

The reason I am trying to get Christians to consider and be aware of the Talmud is so they will recognize the deep-rooted racial sentiment expressed in the Talmud which is still present. Most of the Jews today claim a superior position with God and tie this to their ethnicity and a false connection to Abraham.   Christ is the offspring of Abraham and those who are in Christ are the people of God.   I am opposed to this racist position of the Jews and will remain opposed to it as long as I breathe a breath.   

Gal 3:1  O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2  Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3  Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4  Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5  Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
Gal 3:6  just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
Gal 3:7  Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8  And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
Gal 3:9  So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Gal 3:10  For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
Gal 3:11  Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
Gal 3:12  But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."
Gal 3:13  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"—
Gal 3:14  so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15  To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
Gal 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.
Gal 3:17  This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:18  For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Gal 3:19  Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Gal 3:20  Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21  Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
Gal 3:22  But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23  Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24  So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25  But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26  for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

[AVZ]

   

NR, how many times do I need to tell you the Messianics (at least most of us) do NOT consider the talmuds to be authoritative?  They are useful for historical information and descriptions of first century practice, but are NOT inspired nor are we under any obligation to follow their instructions.

Hi Dave,

This is something I did not know.
Are you saying that there are Messianics who hold the Talmuds to be authoritative?
Do these Messianics have their own denomination, or are they people for example from within your own community?
And what do you other Messianics consider them to be Christians or Jews?

It seems to me that following both the Bible and the Talmuds is highly contradictory.

[DaveW]

Hi AVZ.  Good questions.

Yes, there are some Messianics who hold the Talmuds to be authoritative.  Mostly they come from either the more radically oriented Haredi orthodox groups, the Chassidic ultraorthodox or gentiles that try to be what Dan Juster calls "Super Jews."  It has been condemned in both the UMJC and MJAA as idolitry. None of the major groupings or "denominations" of MJ hold the talmuds to be authoritative or on par with scripture.

Mostly those messianics who do hold the talmuds as authoritative are in small sects that are either independant (much like an independant non denom church) or a few people in larger congregations here and there.

How are they considered?  Extreme.  Dan Juster (one of the founders of the UMJC) calls them "Super Jews" in his book "Growing to Maturity" and considers them to hold Rabbinic Jewish orthodoxy as an idol.

As to whether the Talmuds and the Bible are contradictory, NR surely would have you come away with that opinion.  But realize he has pulled a few lines here and a few lines there to prove his point when each of the talmuds are about the size of a complete set of encyclopedia. They hold differing opinions, often opposing views, right next to each other.

So there are many things in the Talmuds that oppose the bible.  There is also a lot that supports the bible.  It is a mixed bag.

BTW - there are 2 different talmuds (or 3 if you count the Mishnah as a separate work) which are the Babylonian Talmud, published circa 500 ad; and the Jerusalem or Palestinian Talmud, published around 400 ad.  The Mishnah was published around 200 ad and was used as an outline for the other 2 talmuds.

The Mishnah is often published in one volume. (without commentary)
The Babylonian Talmud is published by Artscroll in Hebrew and English in 73 volumes.
The Jerusalem (Palestinian) Talmud is published by Artscroll in Hebrew and English with 29 volumes in print (and with several more to go)

[AVZ]

Thanks Dave

[Shimshon]

Thanks Dave

Yes, it was a very good informative response. 

Mostly those messianics who do hold the talmuds as authoritative are in small sects that are either independant (much like an independant non denom church) or a few people in larger congregations here and there.

How are they considered?  Extreme.  Dan Juster (one of the founders of the UMJC) calls them "Super Jews" in his book "Growing to Maturity" and considers them to hold Rabbinic Jewish orthodoxy as an idol.

Having been part of Messianic Judaism since the Hebrew Christian days I fully concur. 

[notreligus]

http://ourrabbis.org/main/halakhah-mainmenu-26/introduction-mainmenu-27/sources-mainmenu-28

This a link to a web site concerning Halakchic authority and Messianic Rabbis.   This is the definition of the Halakhah:

Ha-la-khah

[hah-law-khuh; Sephardic Hebrew hah-lah-khah; Ashkenazic Hebrew hah-law-khaw]   

Word Origin 

noun, plural Halakhahs Hebrew, Halakhoth, Halakhot, Halakhos 

[Sephardic Hebrew hah-lah-khawt; Ashkenazic Hebrew hah-law-khohs]
 
1. the entire body of Jewish law and tradition comprising the laws of the Bible, the oral law as transcribed in the legal portion of the Talmud, and subsequent legal codes amending or modifying traditional precepts to conform to contemporary conditions.

2. a law or tradition established by the Halakhah.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Halakhah

There are indeed Messianics who teach the Talmud as an authoritative body.   One or two here claiming it is not so does not make it true for all involved with Messianic Judaism.   

[DaveW]

NR - we KNOW what Halacha is. 

If you knew what it was,you would see it in Our Lord's words all thru the gospels and in Paul's words thru the epistles.

[Shimshon]

Judaism is a man-made religion, even with the word "Messianic" in front of the term.   Those who are in Judaism, with perhaps the exception of the Karaites who follow the inspired WRITTEN Torah, believe the Talmud to be an authoritative book.

One or two here claiming it ......so does not make it true for all involved with Messianic Judaism.

Care to take your own advice? You attempt to paint a broad brush using generalities, then you act like you know all about Judaism because of your 'friend'.  I'd say you have a huge anti-semetic chip on your shoulder.  I could level the same type of arguments against the church fathers.  The anti-semetic drivel you spout is on par with theirs.  But I do not make it my point to call all Christians anti-semetic because Luther and the Reformists were overtly so.  Your tactic's are akin to the counter missionary.  And is why all that can be done is show your ignorance in the matter.

Like the fact that you ignore two long-standing Messianics who've been in the movement for decades, who might I add, represent the full spectrum of the movement.  Jew and Gentile believing as one, in Messiah.  Who CAN speak for the organized established Messianic community because we are actively participating in it still today.  You prove your not looking for anything but to counter the existence and validity of Judaism, Messianic or not.  And I find that tactic and attitude disqusting.  Why do I find this most prevelant within Reformist and Eastern orthodoxy?  Oh yes, because they believe they replace Israel as THE church of God..... hmmmm??  Supersessionism at it's core.  Rotten as it is.

Though, unlike you I would never attempt to level all Christians on the same threshing floor and disrespect not only them and Christianity, but God himself.  Which is what this attempt to discredit Judaism is.  Disrespect. If someone is SO right about something they should live it out themselves instead of rail at others for not doing so.  Log in your own eye and all.... No respect received, no respect given.  No forgiveness given, no forgiveness received.  Those who know Messiah know forgiveness and mercy, not judgment and condmenation. 

[notreligus]

NR - we KNOW what Halacha is. 

If you knew what it was,you would see it in Our Lord's words all thru the gospels and in Paul's words thru the epistles.

I have been espousing the fact that Christ is found all through the Scriptures, beginning in Genesis, all the time I've been at this forum.   But I don't see Him as a Jew.

How can you be so hypocritical?   You are trying to divert attention away from that godless body of teaching (that is ever-increasing, by the way) and divert attention to me.   It won't work. 

[notreligus]

Judaism is a man-made religion, even with the word "Messianic" in front of the term.   Those who are in Judaism, with perhaps the exception of the Karaites who follow the inspired WRITTEN Torah, believe the Talmud to be an authoritative book.

One or two here claiming it ......so does not make it true for all involved with Messianic Judaism.

Care to take your own advice? You attempt to paint a broad brush using generalities, then you act like you know all about Judaism because of your 'friend'.  I'd say you have a huge anti-semetic chip on your shoulder.  I could level the same type of arguments against the church fathers.  The anti-semetic drivel you spout is on par with theirs.  But I do not make it my point to call all Christians anti-semetic because Luther and the Reformists were overtly so.  Your tactic's are akin to the counter missionary.  And is why all that can be done is show your ignorance in the matter.

Like the fact that you ignore two long-standing Messianics who've been in the movement for decades, who might I add, represent the full spectrum of the movement.  Jew and Gentile believing as one, in Messiah.  Who CAN speak for the organized established Messianic community because we are actively participating in it still today.  You prove your not looking for anything but to counter the existence and validity of Judaism, Messianic or not.  And I find that tactic and attitude disqusting.  Why do I find this most prevelant within Reformist and Eastern orthodoxy?  Oh yes, because they believe they replace Israel as THE church of God..... hmmmm??  Supersessionism at it's core.  Rotten as it is.

Though, unlike you I would never attempt to level all Christians on the same threshing floor and disrespect not only them and Christianity, but God himself.  Which is what this attempt to discredit Judaism is.  Disrespect. If someone is SO right about something they should live it out themselves instead of rail at others for not doing so.  Log in your own eye and all.... No respect received, no respect given.  No forgiveness given, no forgiveness received.  Those who know Messiah know forgiveness and mercy, not judgment and condmenation.

A Karaite Jew would call you out on this and reveal what you've said as not being true.  Judaism is a religion that is based on the oral teachings of rabbis who hated Christ and Christians.   That's a fact and your denial does not change it.   I nearly posted Judaism's position on a Jewish man having intercourse with a three-year-old girl.   I erased it because it is so evil.   You folk here are trying to pretend that the Talmud is an old body of teaching that is no longer followed and that's not true.   I know that Jews are encouraged by rabbis today to increase the Mishnah by writing new ones each year for their personal guidance.   This is not an ancient practice.   

His name is Jesus Christ.   He is the Savior of the world and not exclusive to the Jews.   Judaism, any version of it, promotes the ethnic superiority of Jews over Gentiles.   That is not of God.   The Apostle Paul said that we are all one in Christ, no group having the superior position.   

You are holding to an obsolete position that is like what you call supercessionism but in reverse.   You want to take away what Christ accomplished on the cross which reconciled ALL of mankind to God Almighty.   When Christ intercedes He does not say, "Father this is a Jew, and the other is a Gentile. Please accept this lowly Gentile as righteous."   

Herbert W. Armstrong and his Worldwide Church of God once claimed that they were more Jewish than the Jews.   They are gone.   Herbert died, the others repented of their false teaching, and they disbanded the group.   Messianics ought to stop separating themselves - that rebuilds the wall of separation that Christ removed - and stop claiming a superior position with God.  That's not of God.  That's of man.   There are many who have come out of Messianic Judaism.   

What should an Arab Muslim do who has become a follower of Christ?   He is of a Semite ethnicity.   Should he say he is a Messianic Islamic? 

This is Scripture, not opinion:

Hebrews 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he [Christ] makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Teach the symbolism and show us how many things in the Old Testament pre-figured Christ and what He would do.   Now that He has done them don't act as though He's done them only for one small ethnic group.    Before the foundation of the world God envisioned the Church!   Become part of the Church and stop claiming that one side of the wall is better.   That's what you're wrongly accusing me of doing.   I claim that the wall should be kept as Christ left it, torn down.   I'm not the wall-builder; that would be you.   

[notreligus]

Romans 2:29  But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Matt 3:9  And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
Matt 3:10  Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

John 8:39  They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did,
John 8:40  but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.

Romans 10:12  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Galatians 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11  Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.


Religious double-talk does not change the truth.

[DaveW]

But I don't see Him as a Jew.

And there lies the problem

[notreligus]

But I don't see Him as a Jew.

And there lies the problem

Yes, it is your problem.

DaveW, you've mentioned all these groups you've been part of.   Maybe you are insecure and need to be part of a group to feel fulfilled.   The only fraternity I care to be part of is the one that makes me a joint heir with Christ, that is the one I'm in by faith.    I am not at all insecure because I am reconciled to God by the finished work of Christ, not because of my ethnicity.  When I go to Gatlinburg the Cherokees recognize me as a Cherokee (I look more Native Indian than most Indians) but I don't need that to feel fulfilled.   

[notreligus]

www.yeshuahamashiach.org/talmud.htm


Messianic Judaism 101 - Talmud

Talmud

In addition to the written scriptures, in Judaism, there is the  "Oral Torah," a tradition explaining what the scriptures mean and how to interpret and apply them.. Orthodox Jews believe G-d taught the Oral Torah to Moses, and it was passed down to the present day. The Talmud was maintained in oral form only until about the 2d century C.E., when the oral law was compiled and written down in a document called the Mishnah.

Over the next few centuries, additional commentaries elaborating on the Mishnah were written down in Jerusalem and Babylon. These additional commentaries are known as the Gemara. The Gemara and the Mishnah together are known as the Talmud. This was completed in the 5th century C.E.

There are two Talmuds: the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. The Babylonian is more comprehensive, and is the one most people mean when they refer to The Talmud. There have been additional commentaries on the Talmud by such noted Jewish scholars as Rashi and Rambam. 

The Mishnah is divided into six sections called orders (sedarim). Each order contains one or more divisions called tractates (masekhtot). There are 63 tractates in the Mishnah. Approximately half of these have been addressed in the Talmud. Although these divisions seem to indicate subject matter  widely diverse subjects may be discussed in a order or tractates. Below is the division of the Mishnah into orders:
Zera'im (Seeds), dealing with agricultural laws
Mo'ed (Festival), dealing with shabbat and festivals
Nashim (Women), dealing with marriage, divorce and contracts
Nezikin (Damages), dealing with tort laws and other financial laws
Kodashim (Holy Things), dealing with sacrifices and the Temple
Toharot (Purities), dealing with laws of ritual purity and impurity

This is from a web site dedicated to Messianic Judaism.   

[DaveW]

This is from a web site dedicated to Messianic Judaism.   

OK - I do not see it as anything more than educational/informational. Nowhere in there does it say anything about it being binding on Messianics.

[notreligus]

This is from a web site dedicated to Messianic Judaism.   

OK - I do not see it as anything more than educational/informational. Nowhere in there does it say anything about it being binding on Messianics.

You're answers are, as always, very predictable.

If the intent were to be purely educational/informational, then they would have put a disclaimer on the web site that they do not follow the teachings of this ungodly collection of rabbinical teachings that is believed to override the Holy Scriptures by those who practice Judaism. 

[Buster D Body Crab]

Is someone here implying Messianic Judaism is what could only be the real Christianity? Or faith in the Hebrew text predicted Messiah Jesus?

[notreligus]

Is someone here implying Messianic Judaism is what could only be the real Christianity? Or faith in the Hebrew text predicted Messiah Jesus?

You just identified the opposing views represented in this forum and throughout this discussion board.   Read an assortment of posts and it won't take you too long to understand who supports which view.   

[Buster D Body Crab]

Is someone here implying Messianic Judaism is what could only be the real Christianity? Or faith in the Hebrew text predicted Messiah Jesus?

You just identified the opposing views represented in this forum and throughout this discussion board.   Read an assortment of posts and it won't take you too long to understand who supports which view.

I have a feeling that would take awhile.
I can understand why Messianic Judaism would exist. Jesus was a Jew after all. He was all that was prophesied in the old testament as the coming savior or Messiah. Sounds to me like MJ links Christ with what would remain of those Hebrew traditions that would stay in place after the Messiah arrived.
I've not looked into any of that yet. I'm still trying to navigate my way into Christianity.