Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[The Barbarian]

Jesus affirmed that the lawyer had answered correctly. However, we must not fail to note that Jesus referred him to the Law and so too was His affirmation, is referenced to the Law thereby in effect cautioning the lawyer that he needed wholehearted compliance with the Law to gain eternal life—which is impossible.

Theology won't save you.    What is in your heart and what it leads you to do will determine your eternal home.

Matthew 25 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

So how does what you do matter?    It depends on your heart.   If you love God and love your neighbor, you will be charitable toward your neighbor.   If you do not, you will not be charitable toward him, and you will spend eternity with Satan and his angels.

Notice that Jesus says that there will be some who do not understand why they were saved.    And He has to explain to them.   As He said of the Good Samaritan, it was better to have love in your heart and be a heretical Samaritan, than to be a Levite without love for his fellow man.

It's not in having the right theology, or saying the right words, or anything like that.   It's merely having love in your heart.   And doing that, you will act as God requires of you to be saved.   

Faith vs. Acts is a human error.   If you have one, the other will be there.   And you can't fake it.   As Paul says, if you do all the right things, and lack love, it won't do you any good at all.

As James says, it's good to have faith, but demons believe and tremble, and are not saved.   A living faith is required of us, and faith without active love is dead.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
But electricity is still a fact, just like evolution.

Spoken like one truly deceived.

It's directly observed.   If you doubt this, you are truly deceived.

You belief may seem right to you, but...
Pr 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Let God be God and let Him manage creation as He will.   He wants other things of you.
Love Him, and love your neighbor.   That is where salvation lies.

[Michael2012]

yeah, the single cell and cluster of cells are still the same thing. cells.

we dont observe them evolving into a different kind.

With regards single-celled microbes, also called unicellular organism, do they have a brain?

Apparently, the scientists on this board seems to be silent on this. Well it seems to appear that scientists agree that the unicellular organism is brainless. It can't think. To me this makes of the organism, if at all, considered to have life, is simply one that reacts unintelligently to its environment. It has no awareness of its surroundings nor can think to react differently in the many different things that comes in contact with it in its environment. It seems to me that it is just like any atomic particle of matter that reacts to its environment in the same sense. How they react and where they are used as part of a whole is a matter that can only be ascribed to be set by that which/who created them and made use of them.

To me then, they don't get to evolve, but were created and get to be used to be part of a whole that the creator so make out of them together with different other created parts of the whole. They are building blocks, so to speak, of the many many and various created things that the Creator made.       

[Michael2012]

Michael...

Jesus affirmed that the lawyer had answered correctly. However, we must not fail to note that Jesus referred him to the Law and so too was His affirmation, is referenced to the Law thereby in effect cautioning the lawyer that he needed wholehearted compliance with the Law to gain eternal life—which is impossible.

Theology won't save you.    What is in your heart and what it leads you to do will determine your eternal home.

Matthew 25 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

So how does what you do matter?    It depends on your heart.   If you love God and love your neighbor, you will be charitable toward your neighbor.   If you do not, you will not be charitable toward him, and you will spend eternity with Satan and his angels.

Notice that Jesus says that there will be some who do not understand why they were saved.    And He has to explain to them.   As He said of the Good Samaritan, it was better to have love in your heart and be a heretical Samaritan, than to be a Levite without love for his fellow man.

It's not in having the right theology, or saying the right words, or anything like that.   It's merely having love in your heart.   And doing that, you will act as God requires of you to be saved.   

Faith vs. Acts is a human error.   If you have one, the other will be there.   And you can't fake it.   As Paul says, if you do all the right things, and lack love, it won't do you any good at all.

As James says, it's good to have faith, but demons believe and tremble, and are not saved.   A living faith is required of us, and faith without active love is dead.

Yes, theology will not save, as nothing will, except God, through Christ.

Acts 4:8-12
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

[Open Heart]

Just because a single celled organism isn't conscious doesn't mean it doesn't react to its environment.  They do things like swim around objects, eat, procreate, react to heat/cold, react to light, etc.   Just like we have reflexes where we react that aren't conscious, such as when we get goosebumps, or how our heart beats by itself, or how our eye pupils dilate if the room gets darker, or how our knee jerks when the doctor hits it with his hammer.

[Open Heart]

So the mormon, JW, muslim also has faith in their God.

Which God is real?

There is only one God, and He is real.  Therefore it doesn't really matter what name you call Him by, Allah or Jehovah or Jesus or Brahma or Tao or Eloheinu.  He will hear all who earnestly call out to Him.  Now, is there confusion in what people think they know about Him?  Certainly.  The competing claims about God are contradictory -- they cannot all be correct.  But God isn't going to pout and refuse to talk to an earnest heart simply because a person is confused.

[KiwiChristian]

There is only one God, and He is real.  Therefore it doesn't really matter what name you call Him by, Allah or Jehovah or Jesus or Brahma or Tao or Eloheinu.  He will hear all who earnestly call out to Him.  Now, is there confusion in what people think they know about Him?  Certainly.  The competing claims about God are contradictory -- they cannot all be correct.  But God isn't going to pout and refuse to talk to an earnest heart simply because a person is confused.

Wow, you really do believe that, dont you?

Its like if i know someone called bob and you know someone else called bob and us having a conversation about bob without first defining WHO we are talking about.

Same with God.

Have you STUDIED the history of allah?

My guess is no.

WHO taught you allah and God are the same?

You sound very new age.

[The Barbarian]

WHO taught you allah and God are the same?

Christians who speak Arabic call Him "Allah."    There's only one God,  (and no one in Israel ever called him "God.')    Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Samaritans (and probably others) all worship the God who spoke to Abraham.

Even if one's theology is not perfect, one can be saved.

[Jaime]

Yes anyone can be saved, but only by accepting that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not just a good prophet. I know some converted Muslims. They are now Christians and denounce Islam and Allah. They denounce the false god of Allah, not that the supreme being was understood by them.

And Allah as a name and allah as a description are not the same thing. We call Allah A god, (a false one) but he is not Jehovah, the one true God. And of course his name isn't God.

A study of the origin of Allah IS eye opening.

[Amo]

Barbarian observes:
But electricity is still a fact, just like evolution.

It's directly observed.   If you doubt this, you are truly deceived.

You belief may seem right to you, but...
Pr 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Let God be God and let Him manage creation as He will.   He wants other things of you.
Love Him, and love your neighbor.   That is where salvation lies.

What you say is directly observed is not the same as the theory of evolution. Your calling all change evolution, then claiming this is how all existing life came about. The latter is not directly observed, never has been, and never will be. It absolutely is not a fact.

I do let God be God, and His word tells me how He created life in this world. I'm not the one who rejects that testimony you are. Apparently, our problems stem from worshipping different God's. I worship the God of the bible, taking the bible as his trust worthy word. Your worship a God that shares some attributes of that of scripture, some of your own ideas or those of others, and the same God as that of many other religions as you have apparently expressed in other posts.

Salvation does not lie solely in simply what you choose to believe from scripture and or ignore from the same. Loving God first and foremost, and loving your neighbor include telling them the truth. All who believe and preach lies do not love either. They do not submit to the word of God as the truth, and they spread their lies concerning the same to others. This is not love. God is love, not a liar. His words are truth. Those who contradict His word are liars. They do to love god or their neighbors, they cannot. Choosing to be outside of God's truth is choosing to be outside of true love, for God is love.

The bible absolutely does not teach I'm OK, your OK. No one is OK. We are all sinners in desperate need of God's guidance and salvation. The bible is that guidance, and those who reject its testimony place themselves outside of His guidance, and thereby endanger their salvation. Many, even who profess Christ, and think they have done wonderful works in His name, will be cast out into darkness. Let alone those who willfully reject the guiding testimony of His word for us.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Amo]

Christians who speak Arabic call Him "Allah."    There's only one God,  (and no one in Israel ever called him "God.')    Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Samaritans (and probably others) all worship the God who spoke to Abraham.

Even if one's theology is not perfect, one can be saved.

Their God's are not the same. They each have testimony from different sources claiming to be from their God. Which sources often contradict each other. Only in abject ignorance will any of the false religions be saved. All who have had opportunity to hear the truth and rejected it, will be lost. Including professed Christians. The majority of the Jews in Christ's day rejected their Messiah, killed Him and then went after His followers. All who died unrepentant of the same are lost souls. As well as all who have had opportunity to accept Him again and have chosen not to.

"Christians" throughout history who have rejected the plain testimony of scripture in order to follow their own way, are lost souls. As well as the many professed "Christians" who forced their will upon other through persecution and murder.

Muslims who have had opportunity to hear the truth and rejected the same are lost as well. Certainly also are all Muslims who persecute and kill in their God's name. It is the same with Samaritans and all other professing any faith. Death came to humanity through a lie, and all who choose to believe and sustain any lie, will die for doing so. By doing so, they prove themselves the children of the evil one, rather than the children of God.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

[Amo]

There is only one God, and He is real.  Therefore it doesn't really matter what name you call Him by, Allah or Jehovah or Jesus or Brahma or Tao or Eloheinu.  He will hear all who earnestly call out to Him.  Now, is there confusion in what people think they know about Him?  Certainly.  The competing claims about God are contradictory -- they cannot all be correct.  But God isn't going to pout and refuse to talk to an earnest heart simply because a person is confused.

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Peter disagrees with you. I'm inclined to believe his testimony over yours.

[KiwiChristian]

Christians who speak Arabic call Him "Allah."    There's only one God,  (and no one in Israel ever called him "God.')    Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Samaritans (and probably others) all worship the God who spoke to Abraham.

Even if one's theology is not perfect, one can be saved.

LOL.

Yes, the NAME allah means "God", but it is a DIFFERENT GOD.

ANYONE can use the name "God". Doesnt mean we are talking about the same entity.

Do you mean that those in the Bible worshipping "false Gods" are indeed worshipping the TRUE God?

[4WD]

Yes, the NAME allah means "God", but it is a DIFFERENT GOD.

The Muslim will tell you Allah is the Allah of Abraham and that Ishmael, not Jacob, is the legitimate heir of Isaac.

[Michael2012]

Just because a single celled organism isn't conscious doesn't mean it doesn't react to its environment.  They do things like swim around objects, eat, procreate, react to heat/cold, react to light, etc.   Just like we have reflexes where we react that aren't conscious, such as when we get goosebumps, or how our heart beats by itself, or how our eye pupils dilate if the room gets darker, or how our knee jerks when the doctor hits it with his hammer.

I did not say that single-celled organisms doesn't react to its environment. In fact, this is what I said:

Well it seems to appear that scientists agree that the unicellular organism is brainless. It can't think. To me this makes of the organism, if at all, considered to have life, is simply one that reacts unintelligently to its environment. It has no awareness of its surroundings nor can think to react differently in the many different things that comes in contact with it in its environment. It seems to me that it is just like any atomic particle of matter that reacts to its environment in the same sense. How they react and where they are used as part of a whole is a matter that can only be ascribed to be set by that which/who created them and made use of them.

To me then, they don't get to evolve, but were created and get to be used to be part of a whole that the creator so make out of them together with different other created parts of the whole. They are building blocks, so to speak, of the many many and various created things that the Creator made.

"

[Jaime]

4WD, you were close, Muslims AND the Koran claim that Ishmael not Isaac is the son of promise of Abraham. Jacob was Isaac's son. Subtle but important difference. Same with any counterfeit.

[Michael2012]

There is only one God, and He is real.  Therefore it doesn't really matter what name you call Him by, Allah or Jehovah or Jesus or Brahma or Tao or Eloheinu.  He will hear all who earnestly call out to Him.  Now, is there confusion in what people think they know about Him?  Certainly.  The competing claims about God are contradictory -- they cannot all be correct.  But God isn't going to pout and refuse to talk to an earnest heart simply because a person is confused.

I agree, there is only one true/real God. Now, there are many other gods that people worship, which obviously are false gods. People gave them names according to what they make and believe of it as the god of something and ascribe to them whatever power they think believe it possess. And there are people who believe there is not one true god but many. And so, the name is very important.

But who is the one true God? What is His name?

He is the God revealed in the Holy Scriptures, the God who created everything and the first man and woman. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

Exodus 3:13-15 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
13 Moshe said to God, "Look, when I appear before the people of Isra'el and say to them, 'The God of your ancestors has sent me to you'; and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what am I to tell them?" 14 God said to Moshe, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be]," and added, "Here is what to say to the people of Isra'el: 'Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.'" 15 God said further to Moshe, "Say this to the people of Isra'el: 'Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [Adonai], the God of your fathers, the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz'chak and the God of Ya'akov, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever; this is how I am to be remembered generation after generation.

Romans 10:12-13 (NKJV)
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Philippians 2:10-11 (NKJV)
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 14:10-11 (NKJV)
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

"As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God."

Acts 4:10-12 (NKJV)
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

The name does matter. The name by which man is saved is not Allah or Brahma or Tao.

[The Barbarian]

What you say is directly observed is not the same as the theory of evolution.

Let's test your belief.    Tell me which of Darwin's four points have not be observed and confirmed.     

Your calling all change evolution,

No, that's YE creationists, who want to make it about the origin of life, and the Big Bang, and who knows what else.   Your argument with them, not with science.   Be sure to tell me which of Darwin's four point haven't been observed.

then claiming this is how all existing life came about.

No.   Evolutionary theory isn't about how life came to be.   Darwin, for example suggested that God just created the first living things.

The latter is not directly observed, never has been, and never will be. It absolutely is not a fact.

I don't see how you can have living things and not have an origin for them.   Nothing is eternal but God.   

I do let God be God, and His word tells me how He created life in this world.

See above.   You've been misled about what evolution is about.   Why not find out, and then tell us which of Darwin's four points haven't been directly observed.

I'm not the one who rejects that testimony you are. Apparently, our problems stem from worshipping different God's.

I worship the God Who spoke to Abraham.   He's the only God there is.   

You worship a God that shares some attributes of that of scripture, some of your own ideas or those of others, and the same God as that of many other religions as you have apparently expressed in other posts.

If you think so, you're badly confused about what it is that Christians believe.    You don't need all the modern revisions of YE creationism.    Just take him as He is.   

Salvation does not lie solely in simply what you choose to believe from scripture and or ignore from the same.

That's a remarkably mature and sensible observation.    Theology never saves you.   

Loving God first and foremost, and loving your neighbor include telling them the truth. All who believe and preach lies do not love either.

I notice that there are YE creationists who love God, and love their neighbor, demonstrate this.   So being wrong about Genesis obviously doesn't hurt them.   Likewise, Christians who don't accept the new doctrine of YE creationism, are most often those who love God and love their fellow man.   So being wrong about how God did creation clearly is not a bar to salvation.    Yes, if YE creationists were aware that they were wrong, that would be something that could endanger their salvation, but I don't think there are very many of them like that.

The bible absolutely does not teach I'm OK, your OK. No one is OK.

Jesus said that the way was to love God and your neighbor, and this would entail showing love and charity for the unfortunate.    He also said that it was better for you to be a heretic and have love for your neighbor, than to be theologically correct, and lack love.   St. Paul reinforces that.   

Let Him be God, and this will trouble you no more.   

Meantime, let us know about Darwin's four points, and which of them have not been observed.

[KiwiChristian]

There is only one God, and He is real.  Therefore it doesn't really matter what name you call Him by, Allah or Jehovah or Jesus or Brahma or Tao or Eloheinu.

Wow, Moses asked God what His name was.

How did God reply?

Did He reply "Oh, it doesn't matter what you call me" ?

You sound very ignorant of WHO God is, my friend.

[The Barbarian]

Wow, Moses asked God what His name was.

How did God reply?

Did He reply "Oh, it doesn't matter what you call me" ?

You and I, for example, call Him "God", when He never told anyone that was His name.   We use the Anglo-Saxon word for a deity, but that's not what the Israelites called him.    He knows when English speakers call Him "God" and when Arabic-speaking Christians call him "Allah" and so on, that they mean Him.

You need to remember this.

[AVZ]

You and I, for example, call Him "God", when He never told anyone that was His name.   We use the Anglo-Saxon word for a deity, but that's not what the Israelites called him.    He knows when English speakers call Him "God" and when Arabic-speaking Christians call him "Allah" and so on, that they mean Him.

You need to remember this.

Why not go to a Muslim, throw your arm around him and say: "We are brothers you and I, we are so lucky to believe in the exact same God".
See what kind of response you get.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
You and I, for example, call Him "God", when He never told anyone that was His name.   We use the Anglo-Saxon word for a deity, but that's not what the Israelites called him.    He knows when English speakers call Him "God" and when Arabic-speaking Christians call him "Allah" and so on, that they mean Him.

You need to remember this.

Why not go to a Muslim, throw your arm around him and say: "We are brothers you and I, we are so lucky to believe in the exact same God".
See what kind of response you get.

My assistant coach when I had a club team, was Muslim.    The orthodox Muslim will tell you that Jews, and Christians, and some others are "people of the book", who all worship the same God as Muslims.

[AVZ]

Barbarian observes:
You and I, for example, call Him "God", when He never told anyone that was His name.   We use the Anglo-Saxon word for a deity, but that's not what the Israelites called him.    He knows when English speakers call Him "God" and when Arabic-speaking Christians call him "Allah" and so on, that they mean Him.

You need to remember this.

My assistant coach when I had a club team, was Muslim.    The orthodox Muslim will tell you that Jews, and Christians, and some others are "people of the book", who all worship the same God as Muslims.

Utter nonsense and rubbish.

[The Barbarian]

Utter nonsense and rubbish.

It's just a fact.  No point in denying it.

In the Quran the term "people of the book" refers to Jews, Christians, and Sabians.[8] The scriptures referred to in the Quran are the Torah (al-tawrat), the Psalms (al-zabur) and the Gospel (al-injil).[8]

The Quran emphasizes the community of faith between possessors of monotheistic scriptures, and occasionally pays tribute to the religious and moral virtues of communities that have received earlier revelations, calling on Muhammad to ask them for information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book

[AVZ]

The orthodox Muslim will tell you that Jews, and Christians, and some others are "people of the book", who all worship the same God as Muslims.

Is that so?

Imagine two people say they know Barbarian.

One says: The Barbarian I know has a son.
The other says: The Barbarian I know has no son.

So you think they are talking about the same Barbarian?

[4WD]

Is that so?

Imagine two people say they know Barbarian.

One says: The Barbarian I know has a son.
The other says: The Barbarian I know has no son.

So you think they are talking about the same Barbarian?

Certainly possible.  One of them just doesn't know Barbarian well enough to know whether or not he has a son.

[Alan]

Certainly possible.  One of them just doesn't know Barbarian well enough to know whether or not he has a son.

+1

[Michael2012]

Quote from: AVZ on Today at 05:44:18

Is that so?

Imagine two people say they know Barbarian.

One says: The Barbarian I know has a son.
The other says: The Barbarian I know has no son.

So you think they are talking about the same Barbarian?

Certainly possible.  One of them just doesn't know Barbarian well enough to know whether or not he has a son.

Are you suggesting that the Muslims only misinterpreted their Quran which tells them that Allah has no son? Or that the Christian is mistaken in his understanding of the Holy Bible that God has a Son? That one of them just doesn't know enough whether God has a son or not?

[4WD]

Are you suggesting that the Muslims only misinterpreted their Quran which tells them that Allah has no son? Or that the Christian is mistaken in his understanding of the Holy Bible that God has a Son? That one of them just doesn't know enough whether God has a son or not?

No

[AVZ]

Certainly possible.  One of them just doesn't know Barbarian well enough to know whether or not he has a son.

1 John 2:22 "Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son."
1 John 2:23 "No one who denies the Son has the Father"
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
1 John 4:3 "but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

[AVZ]

It's just a fact.  No point in denying it.

In the Quran the term "people of the book" refers to Jews, Christians, and Sabians.[8] The scriptures referred to in the Quran are the Torah (al-tawrat), the Psalms (al-zabur) and the Gospel (al-injil).[8]

The Quran emphasizes the community of faith between possessors of monotheistic scriptures, and occasionally pays tribute to the religious and moral virtues of communities that have received earlier revelations, calling on Muhammad to ask them for information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book

This is what Quoran 3:64 teaches:

Say: "O people of the Book (Christians and Jews)!  Come to a word that is just between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords beside God."

Clearly the Muslims take it that Christians and Jews are worshiping another lord besides God.
So, not the same God after all.

[4WD]

AVZ,
The Muslims claim they worship the God of Abraham.  Is that a different Abraham?  A different God? Or are they just wrong in what they believe about God?

[Jaime]

It's to give false credence to the legitimacy of Allah, Muhammed and the Koran. They are so sure of who they worship, but they missed a very important detail in the story of Isaac and Ishmael. As in all counterfeits, there is some degree of truth. Abraham had a son of the promise and it wasn't Ishmael as the Koran states.

[Michael2012]

No.   Evolutionary theory isn't about how life came to be.   Darwin, for example suggested that God just created the first living things.

Why did Darwin suggested that? And what first living things was Darwin referring to, do you know?

Jesus said that the way was to love God and your neighbor, and this would entail showing love and charity for the unfortunate.    He also said that it was better for you to be a heretic and have love for your neighbor, than to be theologically correct, and lack love.   St. Paul reinforces that.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

And Jesus never said anything to the effect that "it was better for you to be a heretic and have love for your neighbor, than to be theologically correct, and lack love." And Paul of course did not reinforce that.

[AVZ]

AVZ,
The Muslims claim they worship the God of Abraham.  Is that a different Abraham?  A different God? Or are they just wrong in what they believe about God?

Muslims claim a lot of things. They claim Muhammad is the greatest prophet and they also claim Jesus is not the Son of God.
If you were to ask Abraham, do you think he would agree with you Muslims honor the same God he did?
How about on Judgment Day, do you think God will be their God?