I recently asked a question about a man's intelligence vs a woman's intelligence and somehow it turned into a debate about the treatment of women. Here is a recent comment that was posted by a Christian guy:
"I'm sorry, but we all need to man up and respect women no matter what, myself included."
According to this guy, men need to man up and respect women no matter what. Now, when I was growing up I would often have it rammed down my throat that women should be respected. I was never told that men should be respected, only women. And I now see this feminist mentality inside the church.
Why not say that both men and women need to be respected no matter what? Why only say women need to be respected? When it comes to the treatment of men and women in the West, is there a certain part of peoples brain that completely melts down? Why does the West have this mentality that women should be respected no matter what, but not men? Could it be related to decades of brainwashing by the feminists? After all, feminism is most popular in the West, so it stands to reason that the West would have this big double standard: "Respect women no matter what, but don't do it for men."
I once heard a male pastor complaining that men in America are afraid of commitment. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Why would men NOT be afraid of getting married? The feminists have their claws in the legal system--a system that is hell bent on taking away a father's rights and helping the wife empty the man's bank account.
I hope I don't come across as sexist. But this is a grim reality that cannot be denied. Once upon a time most women were loving, beautiful creatures. They were a man's strength. They were the women you would die for. But feminism has poisoned everything. We need to abolish this double standard that women should be respected no matter what. I say that BOTH men and women should be respected.
If you disagree, feel free to leave your comments :)
I came across an interesting article: Why every man needs a pre-nup.
http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/133_dating_advice.html
With the bias against husbands, a man has to be out of his mind to get married without a pre-nup. I've heard horror stories about this from several coworkers.
I remember reading an article about how to protect yourself from false accusations of rape, such as recording a phone call in which you casually talk light conversation about the time sleeping together (pardon the euphamism) to present as evidence . . . just in case. That can happen in marriages too.
The problem is that, for some men, a woman has to be an axe-murderer before they snap out of white knight syndrome. A good woman is so precious and should be protected . . . but yikes, some of the dangerous ones have the world on their side now. It's not tradition to praise a man for saving his own neck, but it's us guys that need the saving these days. ::eek::
I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldnt marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 06:32:34
I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldnt marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.
Yeah..I agree the bit about "his money" has me feeling a little ::uhh::. A woman who has dedicated her life to staying at home and tending her children, but has no income, should be protected and allowed to have part of what the household income is. I am NOT advocating for divorce, or anything like that, just saying that in the most dire situations when a woman MUST leave due to safety issues and she has not been the main bread winner, she should get her share.
I 100% agree that BOTH the sexes need to be shown respect and treated as God's children, precious and priceless. It is simply ridiculous to only show respect to ONE gender and not the other!
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 06:32:34
I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldnt marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.
Might I suggest reading the link to the article I gave? Women marrying men, divorcing them for virtually any reason they want and absolutely ruining his life . . . it happens all the time.
I knew a man whose wife divorced him and he was required to pay $90,000 a year for child support, which for him was completely impossible.
Sorry, but being against a man protecting himself . . . ::frown::
: Cally Sat May 26, 2012 - 10:28:00
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 06:32:34
I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldn't marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.
Might I suggest reading the link to the article I gave? Women marrying men, divorcing them for virtually any reason they want and absolutely ruining his life . . . it happens all the time.
I knew a man whose wife divorced him and he was required to pay $90,000 a year for child support, which for him was completely impossible.
Sorry, but being against a man protecting himself . . . ::frown::
Sorry but to me, prenups are totally and absolutely against the Biblical idea of marriage for life. They are preparing for divorce before the marriage has even taken place. When I married my second husband, I was the one with the house, while he had let his ex have their house(that's the sort of guy he is). My solicitor said, slightly in jest, "I am doing good rates for pre-nups" No thanks I said, not for me. 'My' house is now 'our' house.
In the UK the judge can overrule prenups anyway, because other criteria are more important, such as the children's needs for a home and living costs.
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 11:17:34
: Cally Sat May 26, 2012 - 10:28:00
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 06:32:34
I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldn't marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.
Might I suggest reading the link to the article I gave? Women marrying men, divorcing them for virtually any reason they want and absolutely ruining his life . . . it happens all the time.
I knew a man whose wife divorced him and he was required to pay $90,000 a year for child support, which for him was completely impossible.
Sorry, but being against a man protecting himself . . . ::frown::
Sorry but to me, prenups are totally and absolutely against the Biblical idea of marriage for life. They are preparing for divorce before the marriage has even taken place. When I married my second husband, I was the one with the house, while he had let his ex have their house(that's the sort of guy he is). My solicitor said, slightly in jest, "I am doing good rates for pre-nups" No thanks I said, not for me. 'My' house is now 'our' house.
In the UK the judge can overrule prenups anyway, because other criteria are more important, such as the children's needs for a home and living costs.
It's not "preparing for divorce," or else why would they even get married after making a pre-nup?
Like I said, I recommend the article, here's the attitude:
if you choose to leave the marriage, then you resume where you left off.That is, a woman cannot completely--and I mean completely--ruin a man's life absolutely on a whim as happens over and over and over again because of an incredibly obvious bias against husbands.
: MeMyself Sat May 26, 2012 - 09:43:15
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 06:32:34
I am totally against prenups however, and if a man asked me for one, I wouldnt marry him. As far as I am concerned, when you marry, everything that either of you has is now 'ours', and not 'mine' or 'yours'. Having said that I do agree with many of the other points.
Yeah..I agree the bit about "his money" has me feeling a little ::uhh::. A woman who has dedicated her life to staying at home and tending her children, but has no income, should be protected and allowed to have part of what the household income is. I am NOT advocating for divorce, or anything like that, just saying that in the most dire situations when a woman MUST leave due to safety issues and she has not been the main bread winner, she should get her share.
James says that people should take care of widows, and I think a woman unjustly divorced is in the same category.
If a man ditches his wife and children with nowhere to turn, we would call that a sob story all right and rightly so.
Is it not possible for you to recognize the tragedy of this scenario also: a woman divorces her husband (70% of divorces are initiated by the wife), takes away the children, he has to pay her so much that he loses everything he has and then some?
So get a pre-nup that the two can agree upon that strikes a middle ground. Sure, if the husband wants to take off for no reason after the wife put some real energy into supporting him as a housewife, there might be provisions for a settlement.
ObeyTheGospel, just to clarify, I NEVER said men shouldn't be respected. To put it simply...
It is OUR Christian duty to love one another. Jesus didn't say, "Love one another, unless they are trying to domesticate/dominant you". If by chance you have read that in the Bible, I would love to see which version you read. Manning up is following Jesus and trusting that He will provide a way for all your problems, this one included.
Do I think some men need to be respected more? Of course. But saying that it isn't right to respect another gender because you feel as if they aren't respecting your gender from what you saw is childish. If Jesus had that mindset, he would have struck the Pharisees down and not died on the cross for our sins. Would you want that to happen? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Repaying wrong for wrong leads to nowhere and can worsen the situation.
Again, if we judged a whole gender by the nature of a select few, then don't you think that gender would judge us in the same manner? I'm not saying that's right because it is not, but it probably would happen, as you are doing with the female gender right now. So if females judged the whole male population by a select few of us "men", they could say that we are selfish, cheating perverts. That wouldn't be right, would it?
If you don't like the way a female is treating a male, don't have any contact with her at all. It's that simple. Find some of the better, more respectful females. I can guarantee you that they are out there.
To recap, in a sense I am not disagreeing with you and Cally in the fact that some women do domesticate/dominant some males. However, we must love one another, as Jesus said. Absolutely NO excuses or contradictory footnotes with that verse. What good will it do to point fingers and make accusations and judgments? Doing so will lead to nowhere and we would be abandoning OUR Christian duty in doing such.
ObeyTheGospel, I feel as if this is deeper than the pointless joke the speaker made in your previous topic. Is there a problem you have had to deal with pertaining to this topic? If so, I would gladly pray for you.
I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.
: wolflet7 Sat May 26, 2012 - 12:55:05
ObeyTheGospel, just to clarify, I NEVER said men shouldn't be respected. To put it simply...
It is OUR Christian duty to love one another. Jesus didn't say, "Love one another, unless they are trying to domesticate/dominant you". If by chance you have read that in the Bible, I would love to see which version you read. Manning up is following Jesus and trusting that He will provide a way for all your problems, this one included.
Do I think some men need to be respected more? Of course. But saying that it isn't right to respect another gender because you feel as if they aren't respecting your gender from what you saw is childish. If Jesus had that mindset, he would have struck the Pharisees down and not died on the cross for our sins. Would you want that to happen? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Repaying wrong for wrong leads to nowhere and can worsen the situation.
Again, if we judged a whole gender by the nature of a select few, then don't you think that gender would judge us in the same manner? I'm not saying that's right because it is not, but it probably would happen, as you are doing with the female gender right now. So if females judged the whole male population by a select few of us "men", they could say that we are selfish, cheating perverts. That wouldn't be right, would it?
If you don't like the way a female is treating a male, don't have any contact with her at all. It's that simple. Find some of the better, more respectful females. I can guarantee you that they are out there.
To recap, in a sense I am not disagreeing with you and Cally in the fact that some women do domesticate/dominant some males. However, we must love one another, as Jesus said. Absolutely NO excuses or contradictory footnotes with that verse. What good will it do to point fingers and make accusations and judgments? Doing so will lead to nowhere and we would be abandoning OUR Christian duty in doing such.
ObeyTheGospel, I feel as if this is deeper than the pointless joke the speaker made in your previous topic. Is there a problem you have had to deal with pertaining to this topic? If so, I would gladly pray for you.
You didn't ask me, wolflet, but the issue is that those pastor's are crowd-pleasers. Unfortunately, men are so quiet about their needs while the women are vocal about their grievances that the pastor is only going to gripe at men showing no concern for their interests.
Are men afraid of getting married? Good heavens, they have every reason to be!
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 13:09:45
I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.
I see husbands lacking the masculinity of a single man many, many times. It's not especially the wife's fault, either, but a man throwing out his dreams, hobbies, higher goals because of his marriage, it happens a lot.
I fear that lots of men love their wives more than they love Jesus.
Trying to do the right thing is what it's all about. Christians are blessed with guidance here. There is as much guidance as there is a willingness and a patience to accept it. For myself, I'd say it has been God who has been the patient one.
Cally, I think there are valid concerns. We have focused so much on providing equal regard for women in society that we have shoved men's own changing needs in the process.
There are now father's groups to help fathers fight what is actually prejudicial thought within the courts.
Divorce itself has become an easy solution, against the marriage necessity of gaining a greater level of maturity; for too many men and women alike. There was a court show on television awhile back.. where the judge had a hard time making the ex-wife understand that her ex-husband need not provide financial support as she was making more money than him!
The wheels are churning toward the right direction. But society responds slowly..
I don't like the idea of pre-nups either. I don't know much on the legalities.. but I found this...
"Generally speaking, all property acquired by either spouse before the marriage is considered non-marital property." Is this another sign of the wheels churning?
There are indeed gold diggers out there. Don't marry one! There are women of low character out there, as well as men of low character. We must be discerning.
I think the further away society (Church included) has moved from making women "second class citizens" we are becoming able to see that men too can be made "second class citizens."
Injustice is injustice.
: Kindle Sat May 26, 2012 - 13:56:27
There was a court show on television awhile back.. where the judge had a hard time making the ex-wife understand that her ex-husband need not provide financial support as she was making more money than him!
Yeah, this is the kind of thing I want to point out: I feel like the only way you can be against a pre-nup in light of this culture is if you want a woman to have the ability to just absolutely destroy a man at her own whim, and at that not even because of her needs. Granted, in this case the judge seems to have done the right and reasonable thing, but there's just so little concern for men as human beings whenever it comes down to a man versus a woman.
: Cally Sat May 26, 2012 - 14:20:33
: Kindle Sat May 26, 2012 - 13:56:27
There was a court show on television awhile back.. where the judge had a hard time making the ex-wife understand that her ex-husband need not provide financial support as she was making more money than him!
Yeah, this is the kind of thing I want to point out: I feel like the only way you can be against a pre-nup in light of this culture is if you want a woman to have the ability to just absolutely destroy a man at her own whim, and at that not even because of her needs. Granted, in this case the judge seems to have done the right and reasonable thing, but there's just so little concern for men as human beings whenever it comes down to a man versus a woman.
Exactly. Men are human beings too. There has been a significant degree of vindication gone awry in our approach to achieve societal equality. But people, and so society alike, are prone to make many mistakes.
I agree with Chosen.. entering into a marriage via pre-nups doesn't say much for the couple's faith and willingness toward that marriage. ButI guess there are some situations, at least, where they can be seen as prudent. And, women can stipulate pre-nups as well as men. I guess it depends on the couple.. but a marriage should only be entered into if we believe it is meant to last.
: Kindle Sat May 26, 2012 - 14:56:33
: Cally Sat May 26, 2012 - 14:20:33
: Kindle Sat May 26, 2012 - 13:56:27
There was a court show on television awhile back.. where the judge had a hard time making the ex-wife understand that her ex-husband need not provide financial support as she was making more money than him!
Yeah, this is the kind of thing I want to point out: I feel like the only way you can be against a pre-nup in light of this culture is if you want a woman to have the ability to just absolutely destroy a man at her own whim, and at that not even because of her needs. Granted, in this case the judge seems to have done the right and reasonable thing, but there's just so little concern for men as human beings whenever it comes down to a man versus a woman.
Exactly. Men are human beings too. There has been a significant degree of vindication gone awry in our approach to achieve societal equality. But people, and so society alike, are prone to make many mistakes.
I agree with Chosen.. entering into a marriage via pre-nups doesn't say much for the couple's faith and willingness toward that marriage. ButI guess there are some situations, at least, where they can be seen as prudent. And, women can stipulate pre-nups as well as men. I guess it depends on the couple.. but a marriage should only be entered into if we believe it is meant to last.
Well some things are implicit. You probably won't say before marriage, "if you cheat on me, I'll divorce you." But if the spouse cheats and the other wants a divorce, the one that cheats might say "why is that reason to divorce."
It doesn't NEED to be said but it's IMPLIED. You would neither say, "I wouldn't divorce you for any reason" because that's not exactly true. It's a "what if" that exists before every marriage but it doesn't need to be expressed to show "lack of faith" or trust or what-have-you because it's universally implied. If the law or the community didn't acknowledge infidelity, you'd want a prenup for it.
The idea that you can't just say "I do," divorce for no reason, and take the kids and more money from a man than he could possibly make ought to be implied too, but it's not. Unromantic as these things are, they need to be brought up.
A prenup will only come into effect if the marriage ends. Therefore, anyone who gets a prenup is already thinking about who gets what if the marriage ends. A terrible way to start a marriage. There is no way that I would ever get a prenup.
I think that maybe these men that you speak of need to make sure that they marry decent, godly ladies who have integrity and honesty and fairness. I married a man like that, and that is why I wont ever need a prenup. He treated his first wife with integrity, despite her affair and divorce, so I know that he would do the same to me.
My first husband acted appallingly, but I still treated him with decency and fairness in the divorce, and we shared everything. God has already blessed me so much since then.
Also where is God in this? I honestly believe that God will restore far more to my husband than the house that he let his wife have.Thats what He does, He restores to us all that we have lost through no fault of our own. If we treat others with integrity and fairness, He will reward us. If we try to keep as much as we can for ourselves, and want to stop our spouse having anything, what does that say about us? What does that say to God when a man is going to make sure that his wife has nothing if they divorce? What will God think if he cares far more about his money and possessions than he does his wife? If he isnt prepared to say that promise "with all my worldly goods I thee endow," I wouldnt give that marriage much hope of lasting to be honest. We can see where his priority is.
Unfortunately, pastors almost have to be crowd-pleasers so as not to have his/her church separated. Is it fair to everybody? Not at all. Again, I'm not saying how some women treat their husbands is right. I'm simply reminding you of our Christian duty as men.
Men and women can point fingers at each other all day. Wouldn't really solve anything though. The solution? Approach this in a Christian manner with the select few females. Maybe if we did this, God will soften their hardened hearts.
When you think about, it there are some grotty men and grotty women around who will always be selfish and treat their spouses badly no matter what. Thats why we need to be so careful about who we marry and make sure they are Gods choice for us.
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 15:31:26
A prenup will only come into effect if the marriage ends. Therefore, anyone who gets a prenup is already thinking about who gets what if the marriage ends. A terrible way to start a marriage. There is no way that I would ever get a prenup.
I think that maybe these men that you speak of need to make sure that they marry decent, godly ladies who have integrity and honesty and fairness. I married a man like that, and that is why I wont ever need a prenup. He treated his first wife with integrity, despite her affair and divorce, so I know that he would do the same to me.
My first husband acted appallingly, but I still treated him with decency and fairness in the divorce, and we shared everything. God has already blessed me so much since then.
Also where is God in this? I honestly believe that God will restore far more to my husband than the house that he let his wife have.Thats what He does, He restores to us all that we have lost through no fault of our own. If we treat others with integrity and fairness, He will reward us. If we try to keep as much as we can for ourselves, and want to stop our spouse having anything, what does that say about us? What does that say to God when a man is going to make sure that his wife has nothing if they divorce? What will God think if he cares far more about his money and possessions than he does his wife? If he isnt prepared to say that promise "with all my worldly goods I thee endow," I wouldnt give that marriage much hope of lasting to be honest. We can see where his priority is.
Since you put your personal life out there, allow me to work from that.
See if you can use your imagination, in hopes that you might be able to sympathize with a man who falls victim to an unfair system. Let's talk about your first husband who you divorced after his infidelity: what if, after you divorced him, he was given total custody of your children and you owed him more money than you could possibly pay.
Would you think that it's your own fault for failing to marry a godly man in the first place, as you suggest it's the fault of men who fail to marry "godly ladies"? Didn't you make the same mistake that many men pay for dearly?
: wolflet7 Sat May 26, 2012 - 15:32:57
Unfortunately, pastors almost have to be crowd-pleasers so as not to have his/her church separated. Is it fair to everybody? Not at all. Again, I'm not saying how some women treat their husbands is right. I'm simply reminding you of our Christian duty as men.
Men and women can point fingers at each other all day. Wouldn't really solve anything though. The solution? Approach this in a Christian manner with the select few females. Maybe if we did this, God will soften their hardened hearts.
Wolflet, on rare occasion I can feel some old-school chivalry rising in me for a female. It's
exceptionally rare as the female who I'm convinced has no intentions of exploiting it, which is otherwise a huge danger. In general I want to be fair with people and sometimes that means taking a woman's side.
But we have a huge, huge problem on our hands of the gentlemenly treatment resulting in exploitation so severe that men are no longer the "stronger vessels" in effect, as long as you don't have plans how to single-handedly fight off a culture that will protect destructive women.
Otherwise, can you get more specific with your ideas wolflet?
What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.
: Lively Stone Sat May 26, 2012 - 15:56:01
What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.
Lively Stone, yes. And that is a good thought to bring into the discussion.
Me taking it further..
Why is chivalry considered to be only a one way street?
A good woman can extend those helpful things that are a particular strength in women (a generality) just as a good man can do from his own strengths. Physicality is not a man's own strength, to be sure. And, ya. No one wants to be exploited.
There is some pretty cool input here..
wolflet, ty. IMO, you are speaking truths universal for men and women alike.
On marriage and the implicit and explicit.. ah. that takes some adjustment. I remember hubby and I agreeing that housework was a 50-50 before we got married. (We were both in the Army at the time.) ::pondering:: It didn't quite work out that way..
But adultery... ah that's a biggie.
: Kindle Sat May 26, 2012 - 16:56:35
: Lively Stone Sat May 26, 2012 - 15:56:01
What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.
Lively Stone, yes. And that is a good thought to bring into the discussion.
Me taking it further..
Why is chivalry considered to be only a one way street?
A good woman can extend those helpful things that are a particular strength in women (a generality) just as a good man can do from his own strengths. Physicality is not a man's own strength, to be sure. And, ya. No one wants to be exploited.
There is some pretty cool input here..
wolflet, ty. IMO, you are speaking truths universal for men and women alike.
Indeed, Proverbs 31 woman "extends her arms to the needy".
That defies male machismo tradition, doesn't it? It's okay for a man to get rescued by a female.
: Cally Sat May 26, 2012 - 16:58:24
: Kindle Sat May 26, 2012 - 16:56:35
: Lively Stone Sat May 26, 2012 - 15:56:01
What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.
Lively Stone, yes. And that is a good thought to bring into the discussion.
Me taking it further..
Why is chivalry considered to be only a one way street?
A good woman can extend those helpful things that are a particular strength in women (a generality) just as a good man can do from his own strengths. Physicality is not a man's own strength, to be sure. And, ya. No one wants to be exploited.
There is some pretty cool input here..
wolflet, ty. IMO, you are speaking truths universal for men and women alike.
Indeed, Proverbs 31 woman "extends her arms to the needy".
That defies male machismo tradition, doesn't it? It's okay for a man to get rescued by a female.
Oops. I added to my previous post. But yeah! Husbands can be in need of comfort.. rescue even. When they push themselves, sometimes blindly, to the limit. A wife can step in and say.. "Stop! You are hurting yourself." Was rushing here.. She might need to spend a good deal of time and energy helping her husband to see what he is doing and express the whys behind it for his own well being. It is an example at least.
I feel as if I've been very specific in my previous posts. Let me explain it again in clearly terms...
1. Love one another as Jesus has loved us. No excuses.
2. Pointing fingers leads to nowhere. Each gender is at fault for something or another from the bad examples of individuals from said genders, giving each gender respectively a bad rap.
3. In addition to number 2, accusing and acting similar to the bad examples from another gender will not show how the other gender how to act as you would wish them to do.
4. Stay away from the bad examples of the other gender. Make smart relationship/marriage choices.
5. Just because I'm defending the gender as a whole doesn't exactly mean I agree with the bad examples from that gender.
6. You can still keep your testosterone/manhood even if you have to deal with a domesticating/dominating female. A real Man is found in his identity in Christ.
: wolflet7 Sat May 26, 2012 - 21:14:55
I feel as if I've been very specific in my previous posts. Let me explain it again in clearly terms...
1. Love one another as Jesus has loved us. No excuses.
2. Pointing fingers leads to nowhere. Each gender is at fault for something or another from the bad examples of individuals from said genders, giving each gender respectively a bad rap.
3. In addition to number 2, accusing and acting similar to the bad examples from another gender will not show how the other gender how to act as you would wish them to do.
4. Stay away from the bad examples of the other gender. Make smart relationship/marriage choices.
5. Just because I'm defending the gender as a whole doesn't exactly mean I agree with the bad examples from that gender.
6. You can still keep your testosterone/manhood even if you have to deal with a domesticating/dominating female. A real Man is found in his identity in Christ.
Okay wolflet. To the point you've explained yourself, I agree.
: wolflet7 Sat May 26, 2012 - 12:55:05
ObeyTheGospel, just to clarify, I NEVER said men shouldn't be respected. To put it simply...
It is OUR Christian duty to love one another. Jesus didn't say, "Love one another, unless they are trying to domesticate/dominant you". If by chance you have read that in the Bible, I would love to see which version you read. Manning up is following Jesus and trusting that He will provide a way for all your problems, this one included.
Do I think some men need to be respected more? Of course. But saying that it isn't right to respect another gender because you feel as if they aren't respecting your gender from what you saw is childish. If Jesus had that mindset, he would have struck the Pharisees down and not died on the cross for our sins. Would you want that to happen? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Repaying wrong for wrong leads to nowhere and can worsen the situation.
Again, if we judged a whole gender by the nature of a select few, then don't you think that gender would judge us in the same manner? I'm not saying that's right because it is not, but it probably would happen, as you are doing with the female gender right now. So if females judged the whole male population by a select few of us "men", they could say that we are selfish, cheating perverts. That wouldn't be right, would it?
If you don't like the way a female is treating a male, don't have any contact with her at all. It's that simple. Find some of the better, more respectful females. I can guarantee you that they are out there.
To recap, in a sense I am not disagreeing with you and Cally in the fact that some women do domesticate/dominant some males. However, we must love one another, as Jesus said. Absolutely NO excuses or contradictory footnotes with that verse. What good will it do to point fingers and make accusations and judgments? Doing so will lead to nowhere and we would be abandoning OUR Christian duty in doing such.
ObeyTheGospel, I feel as if this is deeper than the pointless joke the speaker made in your previous topic. Is there a problem you have had to deal with pertaining to this topic? If so, I would gladly pray for you.
"But saying that it isn't right to respect another gender because you feel as if they aren't respecting your gender from what you saw is childish."
Could you please tell me when I said this? I never said such a thing. You're jumping to conclusions brother. I was responding to what you said when you said that women need to be respected no matter what. As Christians we are to love and forgive everyone, but nowhere does the Bible say we need to respect people. For example, I could forgive a rapist, but I would never respect a rapist, unless he repented. I could forgive women who have abortions, but I couldn't respect a women who supported abortion. I could forgive an adulterer, but I could never respect an adulterer, unless they repented.
The word respect in the Oxford Dictionary means, "A feeling of admiration for someone because of their qualities or achievements."
Just because we are to love and forgive people doesn't mean we have to respect them. God loves everyone, but that doesn't mean He respects everyone. There is a difference. But that's beside the point. Why do you have the mentality that women should be respected no matter what? I would never say that men need to be respected no matter what, so why do you say this about women?
In recent decades, the West has become more and more intoxicated with feminism and sexism towards men. We constantly teach that women need to be respected, but not vice versa. I can speak to young, attractive women today, and all I have to do is disagree with them or say the wrong thing and they say things like, "**** off, or **** you!"
Believe me, I've had many young women spew foul, disgusting language at me for very little reason. They will talk to men as though they are scum. It is my opinion that this stems from the double standard of, "You must respect women no matter what" but not vice versa. This double standard has mesmerized women into thinking that they are allowed to disrespect men but men still have to respect them.
In my opinion, I believe both men and women should be respected, unless they are practicing evil. Remember, love and respect are not the same thing. I just think that you are wrong to say that women need to be respected no matter what. If you're going to say such a thing, you should at least say the same thing about men. Other than that I still love you as my brother in Christ.
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 13:09:45
I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.
How do you know this? Are you there with them each day? Or do you just take the wife's word for it? I ask because women are well known for complaining about their husbands, just so they can have a good nag or gossip. I don't mean this offensive, but it's true.
: ObeyTheGospel Sun May 27, 2012 - 16:43:37
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 13:09:45
I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.
How do you know this? Are you there with them each day? Or do you just take the wife's word for it? I ask because women are well known for complaining about their husbands, just so they can have a good nag or gossip. I don't mean this offensive, but it's true.
Yeah, there is that to generally consider. Us guys are only starting to learn how to complain in similar fashion (you know, as if we have feelings) and I think a lot of traditional-type men are gonna suck it up and "be a man" which is ultimately ironic.
I see your views on the difference between respect and love. And I agree with it. Thanks for clarifying this for me. However, one of the main things us men need to do is to show these bad examples of females how to act by acting in a manner in which we would like to be acted upon. In other words, we need them to play monkey see monkey do. Maybe this will show the bad examples of females how to grow up and see beyond their stuck up ways, to put it nicely ::smile::
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 17:58:44
I see your views on the difference between respect and love. And I agree with it. Thanks for clarifying this for me. However, one of the main things us men need to do is to show these bad examples of females how to act by acting in a manner in which we would like to be acted upon. In other words, we need them to play monkey see monkey do. Maybe this will show the bad examples of females how to grow up and see beyond their stuck up ways, to put it nicely ::smile::
Love as Christ loved us then? Longsuffering...patience...keeping no record of wrong...
We are called to do this...but, sadly...we give into the flesh, which will quench the Spirit...
However...if we give ourself up (the flesh)...the Spirit will heal all things.
Exactly my point. Thank you for putting it in a clearer post
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 18:07:35
Exactly my point. Thank you for putting it in a clearer post
You are welcome brother...
When we put God first in relationship; other relationships will result in peace. Trusting God first, His love, His faith, His hope...we find ourself living out a calm sanity; as God grips our heart (intimacy with Him)...He cleans out the junk that causes strife. We see others perfect in Christ, there will be no will to argue or complain...no will to be right, rather our will would be in agreement with God...love will follow, which heals and brings peace.
We should have no rights; only God's goodness...which results in humility, mercy, grace, peace and the big one...drum roll please...............................LOVE
What we need is for men to take leadership. I stand by what I say and make no apologies. The problem is that women have been mentally programmed to rebel against a man's authority. The feminists have made us believe that for thousands of years the majority of women have suffered at the hands of men and have been severely oppressed. Although many women have indeed suffered in the past from men, the feminists have made it out to be much worse than it actually was. Therefore, women have been made to fear and despise a man's leadership and authority because women naturally think that most men will abuse their power. In some cases this is true, but not to the extent that the feminists would have us believe.
Many women will look at men today and say, "Look how men are today. They are immature, lack responsibility, and use women for sex. How can we respect a man's leadership?"
I admit that I, too, am ashamed at the actions of many men today, especially young men. But let us dig below the surface and see why men have become shadows of their former selves:
I don't know about America, but in England where I'm from, women can have a baby and get a free house with all her bills paid for her. The mother and child don't need to be dependent on the father. In fact, many women in the UK are happy being single mums. They are well looked after by the government. This causes a lot of fathers to not take responsibility because the mother and child can rely on the government to financially support them. I'm not saying fathers should use this as an excuse not to take responsibility, but it certainly doesn't encourage them. In the past, a father had no choice but to take responsibility, unless he wanted his wife and child to starve to death or end up on the streets. Fathers are no longer motivated to take responsibility because the mother and child can rely on the government.
Another problem is that the legal system is very unfair to fathers. Again, a mother can rely on the government to support her. They don't need to rely on the father. The grim result has been millions of children growing up without a proper father figure. I've known of men to go through mental anguish because they hardly get to see their kids. And what makes me angry is this: Who are these people (those involved in politics) to interfere with the laws of nature? How dare they presume to think that they have the moral right to tell a father he can only see his child once a week or once a month. How dare they?
And then we have the good old media. Just look at all the TV shows that are allowed to make jokes about men, belittle them, slander them, make them out to be perverts, etc. Society knows that men are weak when it comes to sex, but yet society near-enough rams pornography down men's throats. Then society has the audacity to label men as weak perverts who are only interested in sex. I can honesty tell you as a man that before I started watching porn, before I was a Christian, I looked at women in a totally different light. It was pornography that poisoned my mind and made me look at women as sex objects. Until I was hooked on pornography, I looked at women differently.
My point is that society has made men shadows of their former selves. Society has caused men to lose much of their roles and responsibilities. I'm sure you're well aware of the reaction of people today when you quote verses from Paul where he says wives are to submit to and obey their husbands. Even Christians in the church often get offended at this. But let me tell you the truth of the whole matter:
If we are to get men to stand up and fulfill their duty as a good husband and father, we need to give them encouragement, not bring them down. It is ridiculous to take away a father's rights, take away a man's roles and responsibilities, think it's okay to slander and belittle men, and then tell them that they need to man up and take responsibility. Society needs to encourage men and give them back the respect of leadership. Of course, we have gone beyond any hope of that ever happening. But my point is that men need the respect to fulfill their roles, according to the laws of nature that God has given us, not according to the laws of feminists and politicians.
As a man I can tell you that a woman who is sweet, caring, and respectful is like a rose without a thorn. But when a woman is bossy, likes to gossip a lot, belittles her husband, despises his leadership, etc, these are the women that drain men. The way I feel is that the more a woman submits to me, the more it motivates me to love, honor, and protect her. Deep down, I believe that most men love the responsibility of looking after a sweet, submission woman. It's a shame that some men have abused this, but every good man will be honored to love and protect a submissive wife. However, when a wife wants to take on the roles of a husband, it is very off-putting. It goes against the laws of nature.
God bless
: ObeyTheGospel Sun May 27, 2012 - 18:51:31
What we need is for men to take leadership. I stand by what I say and make no apologies. The problem is that women have been mentally programmed to rebel against a man's authority. The feminists have made us believe that for thousands of years the majority of women have suffered at the hands of men and have been severely oppressed. Although many women have indeed suffered in the past from men, the feminists have made it out to be much worse than it actually was. Therefore, women have been made to fear and despise a man's leadership and authority because women naturally think that most men will abuse their power. In some cases this is true, but not to the extent that the feminists would have us believe.
Many women will look at men today and say, "Look how men are today. They are immature, lack responsibility, and use women for sex. How can we respect a man's leadership?"
I admit that I, too, am ashamed at the actions of many men today, especially young men. But let us dig below the surface and see why men have become shadows of their former selves:
I don't know about America, but in England where I'm from, women can have a baby and get a free house with all her bills paid for her. The mother and child don't need to be dependent on the father. In fact, many women in the UK are happy being single mums. They are well looked after by the government. This causes a lot of fathers to not take responsibility because the mother and child can rely on the government to financially support them. I'm not saying fathers should use this as an excuse not to take responsibility, but it certainly doesn't encourage them. In the past, a father had no choice but to take responsibility, unless he wanted his wife and child to starve to death or end up on the streets. Fathers are no longer motivated to take responsibility because the mother and child can rely on the government.
Another problem is that the legal system is very unfair to fathers. Again, a mother can rely on the government to support her. They don't need to rely on the father. The grim result has been millions of children growing up without a proper father figure. I've known of men to go through mental anguish because they hardly get to see their kids. And what makes me angry is this: Who are these people (those involved in politics) to interfere with the laws of nature? How dare they presume to think that they have the moral right to tell a father he can only see his child once a week or once a month. How dare they?
And then we have the good old media. Just look at all the TV shows that are allowed to make jokes about men, belittle them, slander them, make them out to be perverts, etc. Society knows that men are weak when it comes to sex, but yet society near-enough rams pornography down men's throats. Then society has the audacity to label men as weak perverts who are only interested in sex. I can honesty tell you as a man that before I started watching porn, before I was a Christian, I looked at women in a totally different light. It was pornography that poisoned my mind and made me look at women as sex objects. Until I was hooked on pornography, I looked at women differently.
My point is that society has made men shadows of their former selves. Society has caused men to lose much of their roles and responsibilities. I'm sure you're well aware of the reaction of people today when you quote verses from Paul where he says wives are to submit to and obey their husbands. Even Christians in the church often get offended at this. But let me tell you the truth of the whole matter:
If we are to get men to stand up and fulfill their duty as a good husband and father, we need to give them encouragement, not bring them down. It is ridiculous to take away a father's rights, take away a man's roles and responsibilities, think it's okay to slander and belittle men, and then tell them that they need to man up and take responsibility. Society needs to encourage men and give them back the respect of leadership. Of course, we have gone beyond any hope of that ever happening. But my point is that men need the respect to fulfill their roles, according to the laws of nature that God has given us, not according to the laws of feminists and politicians.
As a man I can tell you that a woman who is sweet, caring, and respectful is like a rose without a thorn. But when a woman is bossy, likes to gossip a lot, belittles her husband, despises his leadership, etc, these are the women that drain men. The way I feel is that the more a woman submits to me, the more it motivates me to love, honor, and protect her. Deep down, I believe that most men love the responsibility of looking after a sweet, submission woman. It's a shame that some men have abused this, but every good man will be honored to love and protect a submissive wife. However, when a wife wants to take on the roles of a husband, it is very off-putting. It goes against the laws of nature.
God bless
You remind me of someone ::frustrated::
If you want to be a real man; die to self.....live the Life in Christ!
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
: ObeyTheGospel Sun May 27, 2012 - 18:51:31
What we need is for men to take leadership. I stand by what I say and make no apologies. The problem is that women have been mentally programmed to rebel against a man's authority. The feminists have made us believe that for thousands of years the majority of women have suffered at the hands of men and have been severely oppressed. Although many women have indeed suffered in the past from men, the feminists have made it out to be much worse than it actually was. Therefore, women have been made to fear and despise a man's leadership and authority because women naturally think that most men will abuse their power. In some cases this is true, but not to the extent that the feminists would have us believe.
Many women will look at men today and say, "Look how men are today. They are immature, lack responsibility, and use women for sex. How can we respect a man's leadership?"
I admit that I, too, am ashamed at the actions of many men today, especially young men. But let us dig below the surface and see why men have become shadows of their former selves:
I don't know about America, but in England where I'm from, women can have a baby and get a free house with all her bills paid for her. The mother and child don't need to be dependent on the father. In fact, many women in the UK are happy being single mums. They are well looked after by the government. This causes a lot of fathers to not take responsibility because the mother and child can rely on the government to financially support them. I'm not saying fathers should use this as an excuse not to take responsibility, but it certainly doesn't encourage them. In the past, a father had no choice but to take responsibility, unless he wanted his wife and child to starve to death or end up on the streets. Fathers are no longer motivated to take responsibility because the mother and child can rely on the government.
Another problem is that the legal system is very unfair to fathers. Again, a mother can rely on the government to support her. They don't need to rely on the father. The grim result has been millions of children growing up without a proper father figure. I've known of men to go through mental anguish because they hardly get to see their kids. And what makes me angry is this: Who are these people (those involved in politics) to interfere with the laws of nature? How dare they presume to think that they have the moral right to tell a father he can only see his child once a week or once a month. How dare they?
And then we have the good old media. Just look at all the TV shows that are allowed to make jokes about men, belittle them, slander them, make them out to be perverts, etc. Society knows that men are weak when it comes to sex, but yet society near-enough rams pornography down men's throats. Then society has the audacity to label men as weak perverts who are only interested in sex. I can honesty tell you as a man that before I started watching porn, before I was a Christian, I looked at women in a totally different light. It was pornography that poisoned my mind and made me look at women as sex objects. Until I was hooked on pornography, I looked at women differently.
My point is that society has made men shadows of their former selves. Society has caused men to lose much of their roles and responsibilities. I'm sure you're well aware of the reaction of people today when you quote verses from Paul where he says wives are to submit to and obey their husbands. Even Christians in the church often get offended at this. But let me tell you the truth of the whole matter:
If we are to get men to stand up and fulfill their duty as a good husband and father, we need to give them encouragement, not bring them down. It is ridiculous to take away a father's rights, take away a man's roles and responsibilities, think it's okay to slander and belittle men, and then tell them that they need to man up and take responsibility. Society needs to encourage men and give them back the respect of leadership. Of course, we have gone beyond any hope of that ever happening. But my point is that men need the respect to fulfill their roles, according to the laws of nature that God has given us, not according to the laws of feminists and politicians.
As a man I can tell you that a woman who is sweet, caring, and respectful is like a rose without a thorn. But when a woman is bossy, likes to gossip a lot, belittles her husband, despises his leadership, etc, these are the women that drain men. The way I feel is that the more a woman submits to me, the more it motivates me to love, honor, and protect her. Deep down, I believe that most men love the responsibility of looking after a sweet, submission woman. It's a shame that some men have abused this, but every good man will be honored to love and protect a submissive wife. However, when a wife wants to take on the roles of a husband, it is very off-putting. It goes against the laws of nature.
God bless
Good post.
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
Yeah, this is the attitude that can be a problem.
A real man will let a feminist cut his guts out?
I think not.
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
This is right and good.
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:28:13
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
Yeah, this is the attitude that can be a problem.
A real man will let a feminist cut his guts out?
I think not.
A real man gut cannot be cut out because he has found his strength in Christ Jesus...
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:44:33
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:28:13
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
Yeah, this is the attitude that can be a problem.
A real man will let a feminist cut his guts out?
I think not.
A real man guts cannot be cut out because he has found his strength in Christ Jesus...
Unbelievable.
You're not recognizing the harm that comes from the fact that this is the attitude that has caused women not to even realize that men have needs and feelings too.
Where have you been while women have been blaming society and men for stuff like not being allowed to be leaders or their idea of "oppression" and so on?
Moreover--knowing how some people's brains tick--Godly women who could potentially care about what hurts a man won't know the difference because of your sort of machismo attitude.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him." Says Jesus. But a "real man" won't complain? Godless.
If you're truly convinced that you're dealing with an evil person, you turn the other cheek, but that not without your stance being clear.
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:50:57
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:44:33
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:28:13
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
Yeah, this is the attitude that can be a problem.
A real man will let a feminist cut his guts out?
I think not.
A real man guts cannot be cut out because he has found his strength in Christ Jesus...
Unbelievable.
You're not recognizing the harm that comes from the fact that this is the attitude that has caused women not to even realize that men have needs and feelings too.
Where have you been while women have been blaming society and men for stuff like not being allowed to be leaders or their idea of "oppression" and so on?
Moreover--knowing how some people's brains tick--Godly women who could potentially care about what hurts a man won't know the difference because of your sort of machismo attitude.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him." Says Jesus. But a "real man" won't complain? Godless.
If you're truly convinced that you're dealing with an evil person, you turn the other cheek, but that not without your stance being clear.
We live in a fallen world; you can look to the world and complain...or, you can look up and give thanks...
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:52:38
We live in a fallen world; you can look to the world and complain...or, you can look up and give thanks...
Why not do both?
I mean, not the hopeless sort of complaining. In my younger years I thought I was the only man on the planet who felt hurt by double-standards that spelled hatred for men, but hearing others complain makes me realize I'm not alone. Times have changed a lot just in the past few years with that.
Male machismo is exactly the flaw that feminism exploited: that "real men" never oppose a woman no matter how ill-meaning she is. And they've been allowed to ruin the culture because of that. Is that the benefit of your idea of Christian behavior? Have you considered the idea that it let the younger generation of men suffer (and in turn, everybody)?
: ObeyTheGospel Sun May 27, 2012 - 16:43:37
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 13:09:45
I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.
How do you know this? Are you there with them each day? Or do you just take the wife's word for it? I ask because women are well known for complaining about their husbands, just so they can have a good nag or gossip. I don't mean this offensive, but it's true.
"Just so they can have a good nag or gossip"
wow.
No, that's not offensive at all. ::frown::
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:58:17
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:52:38
We live in a fallen world; you can look to the world and complain...or, you can look up and give thanks...
Why not do both?
I mean, not the hopeless sort of complaining. In my younger years I thought I was the only man on the planet who felt hurt by double-standards that spelled hatred for men, but hearing others complain makes me realize I'm not alone. Times have changed a lot just in the past few years with that.
Male machismo is exactly the flaw that feminism exploited: that "real men" never oppose a woman no matter how ill-meaning she is. And they've been allowed to ruin the culture because of that. Is that the benefit of your idea of Christian behavior? Have you considered the idea that it let the younger generation of men suffer (and in turn, everybody)?
We cannot change the world; God looks at our heart...there is where the change will take place.
1Peter 2:22-25...He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth. 22When they hurled their insults at him he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Jesus trusted God first...Jesus trusted no man; but, He trusted absolutely what God's grace could do for any man. He bore our sins, by His wounds we have been healed. His grace freed us...not His blaming the men that insulted Him or caused Him to suffer. God's grace heals.......though blaming, complaining...pointing fingers; that will only causes more strife.
Trust God...trust His Grace, His love, His mercy; there...you will find healing for yourself and for those around you.
We cannot change the world...but, Jesus can change our hearts; that is where our healing begins...and the lives of others near us will be freed too...
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:13:13
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:58:17
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:52:38
We live in a fallen world; you can look to the world and complain...or, you can look up and give thanks...
Why not do both?
I mean, not the hopeless sort of complaining. In my younger years I thought I was the only man on the planet who felt hurt by double-standards that spelled hatred for men, but hearing others complain makes me realize I'm not alone. Times have changed a lot just in the past few years with that.
Male machismo is exactly the flaw that feminism exploited: that "real men" never oppose a woman no matter how ill-meaning she is. And they've been allowed to ruin the culture because of that. Is that the benefit of your idea of Christian behavior? Have you considered the idea that it let the younger generation of men suffer (and in turn, everybody)?
We cannot change the world; God looks at our heart...there is where the change will take place.
1Peter 2:22-25...He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth. 22When they hurled their insults at him he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Jesus trusted God first...Jesus trusted no man; but, He trusted absolutely what God's grace could do for any man. He bore our sins, by His wounds we have been healed. His grace freed us...not His blaming the men that insulted Him or caused Him to suffer. God's grace heals.......though blaming, complaining...pointing fingers; that will only causes more strife.
Trust God...trust His Grace, His love, His mercy; there...you will find healing for yourself and for those around you.
We cannot change the world...but, Jesus can change our hearts; that is where our healing starts...and the lives of others near us will be freed too...
I firmly believe that you're confusing concepts and the end result is a justification of cowardice.
John the Baptist rebuked Herod and got his head chopped off.
Don't you realize that Jesus CARING about the ways of his culture and speaking against them is the reason why he was crucified?
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:15:51
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:13:13
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:58:17
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:52:38
We live in a fallen world; you can look to the world and complain...or, you can look up and give thanks...
Why not do both?
I mean, not the hopeless sort of complaining. In my younger years I thought I was the only man on the planet who felt hurt by double-standards that spelled hatred for men, but hearing others complain makes me realize I'm not alone. Times have changed a lot just in the past few years with that.
Male machismo is exactly the flaw that feminism exploited: that "real men" never oppose a woman no matter how ill-meaning she is. And they've been allowed to ruin the culture because of that. Is that the benefit of your idea of Christian behavior? Have you considered the idea that it let the younger generation of men suffer (and in turn, everybody)?
We cannot change the world; God looks at our heart...there is where the change will take place.
1Peter 2:22-25...He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth. 22When they hurled their insults at him he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Jesus trusted God first...Jesus trusted no man; but, He trusted absolutely what God's grace could do for any man. He bore our sins, by His wounds we have been healed. His grace freed us...not His blaming the men that insulted Him or caused Him to suffer. God's grace heals.......though blaming, complaining...pointing fingers; that will only causes more strife.
Trust God...trust His Grace, His love, His mercy; there...you will find healing for yourself and for those around you.
We cannot change the world...but, Jesus can change our hearts; that is where our healing starts...and the lives of others near us will be freed too...
I firmly believe that you're confusing concepts and the end result is a justification of cowardice.
John the Baptist rebuked Herod and got his head chopped off.
Don't you realize that Jesus CARING about the ways of his culture and speaking against them is the reason why he was crucified?
There was only one reason He was crucified; God's perfect plan of reconciliation...
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:19:22
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:15:51
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:13:13
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:58:17
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:52:38
We live in a fallen world; you can look to the world and complain...or, you can look up and give thanks...
Why not do both?
I mean, not the hopeless sort of complaining. In my younger years I thought I was the only man on the planet who felt hurt by double-standards that spelled hatred for men, but hearing others complain makes me realize I'm not alone. Times have changed a lot just in the past few years with that.
Male machismo is exactly the flaw that feminism exploited: that "real men" never oppose a woman no matter how ill-meaning she is. And they've been allowed to ruin the culture because of that. Is that the benefit of your idea of Christian behavior? Have you considered the idea that it let the younger generation of men suffer (and in turn, everybody)?
We cannot change the world; God looks at our heart...there is where the change will take place.
1Peter 2:22-25...He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth. 22When they hurled their insults at him he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Jesus trusted God first...Jesus trusted no man; but, He trusted absolutely what God's grace could do for any man. He bore our sins, by His wounds we have been healed. His grace freed us...not His blaming the men that insulted Him or caused Him to suffer. God's grace heals.......though blaming, complaining...pointing fingers; that will only causes more strife.
Trust God...trust His Grace, His love, His mercy; there...you will find healing for yourself and for those around you.
We cannot change the world...but, Jesus can change our hearts; that is where our healing starts...and the lives of others near us will be freed too...
I firmly believe that you're confusing concepts and the end result is a justification of cowardice.
John the Baptist rebuked Herod and got his head chopped off.
Don't you realize that Jesus CARING about the ways of his culture and speaking against them is the reason why he was crucified?
There was only one reason He was crucified; God's perfect plan of reconciliation...
Um, let me put this another way and see if I can get some critical thinking rolling here.
Don't you realize that the reason
other people wanted to kill Jesus was because Jesus spoke out against their flawed and destructive attitudes in their culture.
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:21:18Don't you realize that the reason other people wanted to kill Jesus was because Jesus spoke out against their flawed and destructive attitudes in their culture.
Jesus, being God knew all things...He knew the hearts of all men, so He spoke from perfect truth; we on the other hand...are deceitful, prideful, liars, hypocrites...all of us.
So...healing begins and ends with God's grace and mercy; look how patient God has been with you...with me...
To blame the world for our suffering is not trusting God; simple as that...
We can be free from feminism or whatever other cause is out there that brings suffering; His name is Jesus...and we can do all things through Him Who gives us strength...
When we abandon, surrender, give ourself up for Him...a calm sanity is the result; and...no cause, no person, no insult can harm us...peace is the result. If every man that claims to be a Christian would give himself up for Christ in him...feminism would be a thing of the past; God's plan is perfect...His love is perfect...we would rest in that peace...and women would submit to His perfect Love is us...
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:36:43
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:21:18Don't you realize that the reason other people wanted to kill Jesus was because Jesus spoke out against their flawed and destructive attitudes in their culture.
Jesus, being God knew all things...He knew the hearts of all men, so He spoke from perfect truth; we on the other hand...are deceitful, prideful, liars, hypocrites...all of us.
So...healing begins and ends with God's grace and mercy; look how patient God has been with you...with me...
To blame the world for our suffering is not trusting God; simple as that...
We can be free from feminism or whatever other cause is out there that brings suffering; His name is Jesus...and we can do all things through Him Who gives us strength...
When we abandon, surrender, give ourself up for Him...a calm sanity is the result; and no cause, no person, no insult can harm us...peace is the result. If every man that claims to be a Christian would give himself up for Christ in Him...feminism would be a thing of the past; God's plan is perfect...His love is perfect...we would rest in that peace...and the women would submit to His perfect Love is us...
So unlike all of the writers of scripture and the prophets, your response to Jezebel is . . . nothing.
Your attitude is so cowardly that instead of spending your time on the lookout for right and wrong you choose to try and talk me out of caring the way Jesus did, as well as every saint who ever spoke in the scriptures.
That deception is rejected.
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
A real woman will not blame men...
A real woman will not blame society...
A real woman will not blame the government...
A real woman will not blame the media...
A real woman will not force the issue...
A real woman will not complain...
A real woman will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real woman will make a way...
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...
A real woman will humble herself...and trust God...
[/quote]
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:43:33
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:36:43
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:21:18Don't you realize that the reason other people wanted to kill Jesus was because Jesus spoke out against their flawed and destructive attitudes in their culture.
Jesus, being God knew all things...He knew the hearts of all men, so He spoke from perfect truth; we on the other hand...are deceitful, prideful, liars, hypocrites...all of us.
So...healing begins and ends with God's grace and mercy; look how patient God has been with you...with me...
To blame the world for our suffering is not trusting God; simple as that...
We can be free from feminism or whatever other cause is out there that brings suffering; His name is Jesus...and we can do all things through Him Who gives us strength...
When we abandon, surrender, give ourself up for Him...a calm sanity is the result; and no cause, no person, no insult can harm us...peace is the result. If every man that claims to be a Christian would give himself up for Christ in Him...feminism would be a thing of the past; God's plan is perfect...His love is perfect...we would rest in that peace...and the women would submit to His perfect Love is us...
So unlike all of the writers of scripture and the prophets, your response to Jezebel is . . . nothing.
Your attitude is so cowardly that instead of spending your time on the lookout for right and wrong you choose to try and talk me out of caring the way Jesus did, as well as every saint who ever spoke in the scriptures.
That deception is rejected.
God Bless...I rest in His peace...
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:44:54
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
A real woman will not blame men...
A real woman will not blame society...
A real woman will not blame the government...
A real woman will not blame the media...
A real woman will not force the issue...
A real woman will not complain...
A real woman will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real woman will make a way...
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...
A real woman will humble himself...and trust God...
[/quote]
Yep...
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:47:18
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:44:54
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
A real woman will not blame men...
A real woman will not blame society...
A real woman will not blame the government...
A real woman will not blame the media...
A real woman will not force the issue...
A real woman will not complain...
A real woman will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real woman will make a way...
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...
A real woman will humble himself...and trust God...
Yep...
[/quote]
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as I read the rewrite...
"A real woman will not blame men...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame society...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame the government...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame the media...(I don't)
A real woman will not force the issue...(I don't)
A real woman will not complain...(I try really really hard NOT to)
A real woman will not give way to self pity...(Again...try really really hard not to)
However...
A real woman will make a way...(Doing this)
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...(Try really really hard)
A real woman will humble himself (herself)...and trust God..." (every day I cry out to God for this)
hunh? ::shrug:: I must be a real woman! ::smile:: Hooray! ::clappingoverhead::
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:51:58
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:47:18
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:44:54
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
A real woman will not blame men...
A real woman will not blame society...
A real woman will not blame the government...
A real woman will not blame the media...
A real woman will not force the issue...
A real woman will not complain...
A real woman will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real woman will make a way...
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...
A real woman will humble himself...and trust God...
Yep...
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as I read the rewrite...
"A real woman will not blame men...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame society...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame the government...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame the media...(I don't)
A real woman will not force the issue...(I don't)
A real woman will not complain...(I try really really hard NOT to)
A real woman will not give way to self pity...(Again...try really really hard not to)
However...
A real woman will make a way...(Doing this)
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...(Try really really hard)
A real woman will humble himself (herself)...and trust God..." (every day I cry out to God for this)
hunh? ::shrug:: I must be a real woman! ::smile:: Hooray! ::clappingoverhead::
Um, just out of curiosity and for my information . . . what was the following? (I mean, are you sure it didn't fit under one of those categories?)
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:58:34
: ObeyTheGospel Sun May 27, 2012 - 16:43:37
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 13:09:45
I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.
How do you know this? Are you there with them each day? Or do you just take the wife's word for it? I ask because women are well known for complaining about their husbands, just so they can have a good nag or gossip. I don't mean this offensive, but it's true.
"Just so they can have a good nag or gossip"
wow.
No, that's not offensive at all. ::frown::
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:03:12
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:51:58
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:47:18
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:44:54
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
A real woman will not blame men...
A real woman will not blame society...
A real woman will not blame the government...
A real woman will not blame the media...
A real woman will not force the issue...
A real woman will not complain...
A real woman will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real woman will make a way...
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...
A real woman will humble himself...and trust God...
Yep...
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as I read the rewrite...
"A real woman will not blame men...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame society...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame the government...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame the media...(I don't)
A real woman will not force the issue...(I don't)
A real woman will not complain...(I try really really hard NOT to)
A real woman will not give way to self pity...(Again...try really really hard not to)
However...
A real woman will make a way...(Doing this)
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...(Try really really hard)
A real woman will humble himself (herself)...and trust God..." (every day I cry out to God for this)
hunh? ::shrug:: I must be a real woman! ::smile:: Hooray! ::clappingoverhead::
Um, just out of curiosity and for my information . . . what was the following? (I mean, are you sure it didn't fit under one of those categories?)
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:58:34
: ObeyTheGospel Sun May 27, 2012 - 16:43:37
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 13:09:45
I have to say, that thinking of all the marriages that I know, very few are ones where the woman is in anyway dominating the man. There are a few, but not the majority, and of course there are also those where the man dominates the woman in an ungodly way.
How do you know this? Are you there with them each day? Or do you just take the wife's word for it? I ask because women are well known for complaining about their husbands, just so they can have a good nag or gossip. I don't mean this offensive, but it's true.
"Just so they can have a good nag or gossip"
wow.
No, that's not offensive at all. ::frown::
If I am offended by the words of ONE man, I am blaming men, is that what you imply? ::headscratch::
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:05:26
If I am offended by the words of ONE man, I am blaming men, is that what you imply? ::headscratch::
Nope.
I was just looking over Thankfuldad's list and your response and just wondered how seriously I should take it. One of his criteria was "a real man will not complain."
That response looked like an implicit complaint. I happen to think complaining is fine, but like I said, I wondered how seriously I should have taken that latter response.
Just for my information. Thanks
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:07:48
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:05:26
If I am offended by the words of ONE man, I am blaming men, is that what you imply? ::headscratch::
Nope.
I was just looking over Thankfuldad's list and your response and just wondered how seriously I should take it. One of his criteria was "a real man will not complain."
That response looked like an implicit complaint. I happen to think complaining is fine, but like I said, I wondered how seriously I should have taken that latter response.
Just for my information. Thanks
It is not a complaint to say something someone says is offensive...so.... ::headscratch::
complaining is more behind the back stuff IMO, its not being grateful for the good you have but focusing on all you don't etc. IMO
AND, I said I wasn't perfect at it ::smile:: but I DO try. ::smile::
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:09:47
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:07:48
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:05:26
If I am offended by the words of ONE man, I am blaming men, is that what you imply? ::headscratch::
Nope.
I was just looking over Thankfuldad's list and your response and just wondered how seriously I should take it. One of his criteria was "a real man will not complain."
That response looked like an implicit complaint. I happen to think complaining is fine, but like I said, I wondered how seriously I should have taken that latter response.
Just for my information. Thanks
It is not a complaint to say something someone says is offensive...so.... ::headscratch::
complaining is more behind the back stuff IMO, its not being grateful for the good you have but focusing on all you don't etc. IMO
AND, I said I wasn't perfect at it ::smile:: but I DO try. ::smile::
I disagree with your logic but thanks for clarifying.
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:14:28
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:09:47
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:07:48
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:05:26
If I am offended by the words of ONE man, I am blaming men, is that what you imply? ::headscratch::
Nope.
I was just looking over Thankfuldad's list and your response and just wondered how seriously I should take it. One of his criteria was "a real man will not complain."
That response looked like an implicit complaint. I happen to think complaining is fine, but like I said, I wondered how seriously I should have taken that latter response.
Just for my information. Thanks
It is not a complaint to say something someone says is offensive...so.... ::headscratch::
complaining is more behind the back stuff IMO, its not being grateful for the good you have but focusing on all you don't etc. IMO
AND, I said I wasn't perfect at it ::smile:: but I DO try. ::smile::
I disagree with your logic but thanks for clarifying.
ok. ::smile::
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:51:58
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:47:18
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 11:44:54
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
A real woman will not blame men...
A real woman will not blame society...
A real woman will not blame the government...
A real woman will not blame the media...
A real woman will not force the issue...
A real woman will not complain...
A real woman will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real woman will make a way...
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...
A real woman will humble himself...and trust God...
Yep...
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as I read the rewrite...
"A real woman will not blame men...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame society...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame the government...(I don't)
A real woman will not blame the media...(I don't)
A real woman will not force the issue...(I don't)
A real woman will not complain...(I try really really hard NOT to)
A real woman will not give way to self pity...(Again...try really really hard not to)
However...
A real woman will make a way...(Doing this)
A real woman will love as Christ loved us...(Try really really hard)
A real woman will humble himself (herself)...and trust God..." (every day I cry out to God for this)
hunh? ::shrug:: I must be a real woman! ::smile:: Hooray! ::clappingoverhead::
[/quote]
Ah ha, but what do we do about the millions of feminists who hate men? And what do we do about the problem with feminism in the church? You're one woman. There are millions of women who are not like you.
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:18:27
Ah ha, but what do we do about the millions of feminists who hate men? And what do we do about the problem with feminism in the church? You're one woman. There are millions of women who are not like you.
Pray for them.
Matthew 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
There are millions of men who hate women too...what can be done?
It's natural for people to get offended at the truth. I have people all the time who get mad at me just for telling them the truth. When the Bible warns about lust, it is mostly aimed at the men. But when the Bible warns about gossip, it is mostly aimed at women. Wives are well known for gossiping about their husbands. This is evil slander. Women need to let men take the leadership and encourage him to take responsibility. A woman can be a feminist and not even know it.
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:50:57
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:44:33
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:28:13
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
Yeah, this is the attitude that can be a problem.
A real man will let a feminist cut his guts out?
I think not.
A real man guts cannot be cut out because he has found his strength in Christ Jesus...
Unbelievable.
You're not recognizing the harm that comes from the fact that this is the attitude that has caused women not to even realize that men have needs and feelings too.
Where have you been while women have been blaming society and men for stuff like not being allowed to be leaders or their idea of "oppression" and so on?
Moreover--knowing how some people's brains tick--Godly women who could potentially care about what hurts a man won't know the difference because of your sort of machismo attitude.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him." Says Jesus. But a "real man" won't complain? Godless.
If you're truly convinced that you're dealing with an evil person, you turn the other cheek, but that not without your stance being clear.
Cally, my husband was damaged emotionally by his father and the insane ideas he put into him about what a man is supposed to be. His father was NPD... just to give you an understanding of how much damage was done. NPD individuals are willing enough to sabotage their own children's entire lives if it allows them to remain in control. ::frown::
I went into the marriage a strong feminist (at least in contrast to the women in society where I was raised.) The culture here, especially at the time, and the extent to which my family lived the most negative aspects was truly
sick! My mother expressed to me several times that she whipped me often when I was little on the advice of my father's mother.. Her words.."so that I would not turn out to be a w***e. I won't go into further detail, but this is just indicative of what can be twisted; within both society and the family itself.
Another example: one of my paternal uncles was accused by a twelve year old girl for molesting her while on his job.. What happened was that he was fired. That was the end of it. The grandmother, true to course, did not deny that this had occurred. Instead she told us the girl "brought it upon herself." Was she a Christian lady?
This same paternal grandmother never voted once in her life.. because to do so was to "usurp a man's authority."
There is a reason for the feminists to have come forward, even within the Church. I've done a good bit of reading on this.. history has taken liberty to twist the Bible against women in some pretty extreme ways. The worst of what men have experienced in the last two generations is indeed a backlash. But Christ has taught us how to deal with injustice and disharmony. Consider the teaching about turning the other cheek. What is Christ really saying here?
Clark's commentary on this passage is: Do not repel one outrage by another." He that does so makes himself precisely what the other is, a wicked person. It is something to consider here, giving the context of this thread?
I don't believe a real man should not complain...exactly.. else wise I agree with ThankfulDad fully. Instead a real man stop complaining long enough to find out what it is inside himself that is hurting or vulnerable and seek out Christ's guidance in order that he be healed. Sometimes even a Godly wife needs His help for her husband in this area. This takes courage.. both to stop complaining and to address the real issue; one human being to another.
A lot has been posted since I started this. Yeah.. there are men hating feminists in our society. There are also a lot of women hating men; and not because they themselves have been hurt.. but simply due to their character. Dittoing MeMyself here. What can be done?
: Kindle Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:29:46
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:50:57
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:44:33
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:28:13
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 10:15:43
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 09:28:41
: wolflet7 Sun May 27, 2012 - 22:15:50
I agree with Thankfulldad. Real men put Christ above all and submit all power and authority to Him. You should listen to the album Man Up by 116. Very helpful and very true.
A real Christian man would also accept all what the Bible has to say instead of cherry picking. A real man would make a stand against feminism instead of being a weakling and allowing feminism to destroy things.
A real man will not blame women...
A real man will not blame society...
A real man will not blame the government...
A real man will not blame the media...
A real man will not force the issue...
A real man will not complain...
A real man will not give way to self pity...
However...
A real man will make a way...
A real man will love as Christ loved us...
A real man will humble himself...and trust God...
Yeah, this is the attitude that can be a problem.
A real man will let a feminist cut his guts out?
I think not.
A real man guts cannot be cut out because he has found his strength in Christ Jesus...
Unbelievable.
You're not recognizing the harm that comes from the fact that this is the attitude that has caused women not to even realize that men have needs and feelings too.
Where have you been while women have been blaming society and men for stuff like not being allowed to be leaders or their idea of "oppression" and so on?
Moreover--knowing how some people's brains tick--Godly women who could potentially care about what hurts a man won't know the difference because of your sort of machismo attitude.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him." Says Jesus. But a "real man" won't complain? Godless.
If you're truly convinced that you're dealing with an evil person, you turn the other cheek, but that not without your stance being clear.
Cally, my husband was damaged emotionally by his father and the insane ideas he put into him about what a man is supposed to be. His father was NPD... just to give you an understanding of how much damage was done. NPD individuals are willing enough to sabotage their own children's entire lives if it allows them to remain in control. ::frown::
I went into the marriage a strong feminist (at least in contrast to the women in society where I was raised.) The culture here, especially at the time, and the extent to which my family lived the most negative aspects was truly
sick! My mother expressed to me several times that she whipped me often when I was little on the advice of my father's mother.. Her words.."so that I would not turn out to be a w***e. I won't go into further detail, but this is just indicative of what can be twisted; within both society and the family itself.
Another example: one of my paternal uncles was accused by a twelve year old girl for molesting her while on his job.. What happened was that he was fired. That was the end of it. The grandmother, true to course, did not deny that this had occurred. Instead she told us the girl "brought it upon herself." Was she a Christian lady?
This same paternal grandmother never voted once in her life.. because to do so was to "usurp a man's authority."
There is a reason for the feminists to have come forward, even within the Church. I've done a good bit of reading on this.. history has taken liberty to twist the Bible against women in some pretty extreme ways. The worst of what men have experienced in the last two generations is indeed a backlash. But Christ has taught us how to deal with injustice and disharmony. Consider the teaching about turning the other cheek. What is Christ really saying here?
Clark's commentary on this passage is: Do not repel one outrage by another." He that does so makes himself precisely what the other is, a wicked person. It is something to consider here, giving the context of this thread?
I don't believe a real man should not complain...exactly.. else wise I agree with ThankfulDad fully. Instead a real man stop complaining long enough to find out what it is inside himself that is hurting or vulnerable and seek out Christ's guidance in order that he be healed. Sometimes even a Godly wife needs His help for her husband in this area. This takes courage.. both to stop complaining and to address the real issue; one human being to another.
A lot has been posted since I started this. Yeah.. there are men hating feminists in our society. There are also a lot of women hating men; and not because they themselves have been hurt.. but simply due to their character. Dittoing MeMyself here. What can be done?
The only answer is for both men and women to obey the gospel. I've heard that divorce is quite high within the church, so either Christians are committing lots if adultery or they are just not honoring their vows. If a Christian couple are getting married they need to agree to both obey their roles: The wife gives the husband the respect of being the head and the leader, and the husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church.
The problem is that many women in the church despise a man's leadership. They argue that the writings of Paul do not apply for today, or that the Bible doesn't teach that the husband is the head, even though it clearly does. And then there are men in the church who don't obey their roles either.
The only way to resolve this problem is simply to obey the New Testament. The problem is that the church is filled with people who call themselves Christians, but they pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe, and reject anything that makes them uncomfortable. Does not the Bible warn us that in the last days there is going to be a big falling away?
God bless
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:56:31
The problem is that many women in the church despise a man's leadership.
Its not *the* (as in only) problem...
LOTS of others out there...
always TWO sides to a coin. Just sayin...
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
: Kindle Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:29:46Yeah.. there are men hating feminists in our society. There are also a lot of women hating men; and not because they themselves have been hurt.. but simply due to their character. Dittoing MeMyself here. What can be done?
We can either get wrapped up in a cause; or, we can trust God and be of value...available to do His work, His purpose...which is to love one another...
Love does no harm, love heals all things, love drives out fear, love never fails...
The second we complain, or point fingers, or blame others, or look at our own whiteness...we fail; we all need Jesus...so we can take His love beyond ourself...
Abandon to God is of more value then personal holiness; personal holiness focuses the eye on our own whiteness. Abandon to God is never a question of being useful (am I of use? Nope) we need to get to the point of knowing we are not...then, we are getting close to the truth. However, when we abandon...there we become of great value to God. When once we are abandon...He works through us all the time; and His love never fails...
We can fight the world with our own personal holiness...and we will fail.
or
We can fight the world with God's Love as He works through us...there we have value...God will not fail.
Self always gets in the way of God's purpose...God must look at us and ask; why, when I have given My children the Holy Spirit...do they not call on me?
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
The only answer is for both men and women to obey the gospel. I've heard that divorce is quite high within the church, so either Christians are committing lots if adultery or they are just not honoring their vows. If a Christian couple are getting married they need to agree to both obey their roles: The wife gives the husband the respect of being the head and the leader, and the husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church.
The problem is that many women in the church despise a man's leadership. They argue that the writings of Paul do not apply for today, or that the Bible doesn't teach that the husband is the head, even though it clearly does. And then there are men in the church who don't obey their roles either.
The only way to resolve this problem is simply to obey the New Testament. The problem is that the church is filled with people who call themselves Christians, but they pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe, and reject anything that makes them uncomfortable. Does not the Bible warn us that in the last days there is going to be a big falling away?
God bless...OtG
Leadership does not equate to control. That is why submission to leadership qualities (and other virtues) among all Christians must be mutually appreciated, and brought together for the common good.
Yes, the husband is the head.. "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." My own accepted translation on "head", and ya.. it is a subject of debate.. is "source of life." It fits so beautifully into the teaching. And my understanding this given me an enormous amount of appreciation for my husband. He, in turn, appreciates my heart...which is the source of what?
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:21:52
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.
Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .
: Kindle Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:23:16
Leadership does not equate to control. That is why submission to leadership qualities (and other virtues) among all Christians must be mutually appreciated, and brought together for the common good.
Yes, the husband is the head.. "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." My own accepted translation on "head", and ya.. it is a subject of debate.. is "source of life." It fits so beautifully into the teaching. And my understanding this given me an enormous amount of appreciation for my husband. He, in turn, appreciates my heart...which is the source of what?
::clappingoverhead::
YAY!
We watch the show Man, Woman, Wild sometimes
Even though it is a secular show, it beautifully portrays IMO the biblical picture of God's "roles" in marriage.
He leads with grace, humility and strength
She follows in like manner
And then...
He blows it and gets snippy
She blows it and does the same
and yet, they BOTH are vital to their survival...they are equals.
Maybe because I am from the Uk, but I dont see feminism as being much of a a problem here.The men and women in the churches that I have been to seem to get on quite well and seem pretty balanced and respectful of each other, and the teaching has always seemed quite balanced.
My DH and I have been attending a marriage course at our church, and that is also very balanced in what it says and teaches.
Yes you do get the occasional husband or wife who is controlling or bossy or manipulative, but they are not that common.
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:26:22
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:21:52
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.
Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .
I agree women "vent" more through words,
but
men "vent" in other ways IMO.
A bitter root is not just about what is exposed and seen (or heard)...lots are tucked away nicely in the heart.
: Thankfulldad Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:17:45
: Kindle Mon May 28, 2012 - 12:29:46Yeah.. there are men hating feminists in our society. There are also a lot of women hating men; and not because they themselves have been hurt.. but simply due to their character. Dittoing MeMyself here. What can be done?
We can either get wrapped up in a cause; or, we can trust God and be of value...available to do His work, His purpose...which is to love one another...
Love does no harm, love heals all things, love drives out fear, love never fails...
The second we complain, or point fingers, or blame others, or look at our own whiteness...we fail; we all need Jesus...so we can take His love beyond ourself...
Abandon to God is of more value then personal holiness; personal holiness focuses the eye on our own whiteness. Abandon to God is never a question of being useful (am I of use? Nope) we need to get to the point of knowing we are not...then, we are getting close to the truth. However, when we abandon...there we become of great value to God. When once we are abandon...He works through us all the time; and His love never fails...
We can fight the world with our own personal holiness...and we will fail.
or
We can fight the world with God's Love as He works through us...there we have value...God will not fail.
Self always gets in the way of God's purpose...God must look at us and ask; why, when I have given My children the Holy Spirit...do they not call on me?
Awesome, Thankfulldad. ::nodding::
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:28:09
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:26:22
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:21:52
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.
Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .
I agree women "vent" more through words,
but
men "vent" in other ways IMO.
A bitter root is not just about what is exposed and seen (or heard)...lots are tucked away nicely in the heart.
You're missing the point.
I'm saying, if a woman says "he's abusing his role as a husband" I'm wondering two things: does she even BELIEVE that she is to be submissive as his wife--both you and kindle just showed that you follow the theology that wives don't really.
Secondly, I'd need to hear the man's side of the story.
THEN and only then could I make a fair judgment on that issue.
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:26:32
: Kindle Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:23:16
Leadership does not equate to control. That is why submission to leadership qualities (and other virtues) among all Christians must be mutually appreciated, and brought together for the common good.
Yes, the husband is the head.. "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." My own accepted translation on "head", and ya.. it is a subject of debate.. is "source of life." It fits so beautifully into the teaching. And my understanding this given me an enormous amount of appreciation for my husband. He, in turn, appreciates my heart...which is the source of what?
::clappingoverhead::
YAY!
We watch the show Man, Woman, Wild sometimes
Even though it is a secular show, it beautifully portrays IMO the biblical picture of God's "roles" in marriage.
He leads with grace, humility and strength
She follows in like manner
And then...
He blows it and gets snippy
She blows it and does the same
and yet, they BOTH are vital to their survival...they are equals.
::choir:: So true!
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:31:03
You're missing the point.
I'm saying, if a woman says "he's abusing his role as a husband" I'm wondering two things: does she even BELIEVE that she is to be submissive as his wife--both you and kindle just showed that you follow the theology that wives don't really.
Secondly, I'd need to hear the man's side of the story.
THEN and only then could I make a fair judgment on that issue.
Nah, Im not, just focused my post on what I thought was important.
And so, about this one...
When a man says "She wont let me lead", I have to admit, I wonder about his definition of leading...does he think she is to blindly obey his every whim? Does he talk down to her and pat her on the head like the cute empty headed bubble headed ninny that she is? Is he really having a problem with her speaking her mind instead of just blindly complying?
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:26:22
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:21:52
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.
Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .
Its sad that those women don't realise that submission is actually a very strong quality, and for a strong woman, it takes a lot of discipline and obedience to God to be able to do it(can you tell I speak from experience?. lol.)
I also agree that women talk more about their marriages and husbands etc, (and their their side of any story of anything that goes wrong) is known, while men in general will tend to keep quiet, which isn't always in their best interests.
My husband knows all about that from his first marriage.The thing is that he trusts God, and says that He will vindicate him, and therefore he didn't feel the need to do the same as her, and go round telling others bad/twisted things about her as she did.
We can build up or tear down our marriages with our words, so we do need to be very careful what we say.
I also think that the term 'abuse' is used far to readily and easily these days, for many things that simply arent abuse in the real sense.
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:31:03
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:28:09
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:26:22
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:21:52
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.
Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .
I agree women "vent" more through words,
but
men "vent" in other ways IMO.
A bitter root is not just about what is exposed and seen (or heard)...lots are tucked away nicely in the heart.
You're missing the point.
I'm saying, if a woman says "he's abusing his role as a husband" I'm wondering two things: does she even BELIEVE that she is to be submissive as his wife--both you and kindle just showed that you follow the theology that wives don't really.
Secondly, I'd need to hear the man's side of the story.
THEN and only then could I make a fair judgment on that issue.
Injustice is injustice, Cally. We all need to really
hear both sides of the story. Leadership in a marriage is not about control.
I gtg for now... hubby has commanded that I surrender up the PC. rofl
: chosenone Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:36:55
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:26:22
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:21:52
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.
Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .
Its sad that those women don't realise that submission is actually a very strong quality, and for a strong woman, it takes a lot of discipline and obedience to God to be able to do it(can you tell I speak from experience?. lol.)
I also agree that women talk more about their marriages and husbands etc, (and their their side of any story of anything that goes wrong) is known, while men in general will tend to keep quiet, which isn't always in their best interests.
My husband knows all about that from his first marriage.The thing is that he trusts God, and says that He will vindicate him, and therefore he didn't feel the need to do the same as her, and go round telling others bad/twisted things about her as she did.
We can build up or tear down our marriages with our words, so we do need to be very careful what we say.
I also think that the term 'abuse' is used far to readily and easily these days, for many things that simply arent abuse in the real sense.
It's not in anybody's best interests for men to keep quiet!
I mean right now . . . anti-feminist men's rights movements are exploding. Because women have been goaded into complaining about every last thing a human being can possibly complain about.
And some of us are saying, wait a second, why do men only sign up for the draft? Why are men suffering WAY more work-related deaths? Why is the overwhelming majority of the homeless men?
Because men's deficiency in the ability to complain has allowed an huge, incredible delusion to come upon many women that they're the only one who have "gender roles" that can be difficult, and men have it on easy street.
Seriously, when men start throwing up their hands and saying "women don't want to do a woman's job, why should I do a man's job." MAN are we in trouble when that happens, because men are providing our most basic needs like food and shelter.
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:36:08
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:31:03
You're missing the point.
I'm saying, if a woman says "he's abusing his role as a husband" I'm wondering two things: does she even BELIEVE that she is to be submissive as his wife--both you and kindle just showed that you follow the theology that wives don't really.
Secondly, I'd need to hear the man's side of the story.
THEN and only then could I make a fair judgment on that issue.
Nah, Im not, just focused my post on what I thought was important.
And so, about this one...
When a man says "She wont let me lead", I have to admit, I wonder about his definition of leading...does he think she is to blindly obey his every whim? Does he talk down to her and pat her on the head like the cute empty headed bubble headed ninny that she is? Is he really having a problem with her speaking her mind instead of just blindly complying?
Let me see if I can get the previous point across by responding to this. If the woman who is complaining about her husband believes as I think I've heard you say, focusing on that "mutual submission" theology as if men and women ought not to have been addressed separately, I would stop right there, because that's the first problem.
I have no doubt that men will and are making errors.
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Not my church. You need to change churches.
: chosenone Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:36:55
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:26:22
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:21:52
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.
Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .
Its sad that those women don't realise that submission is actually a very strong quality, and for a strong woman, it takes a lot of discipline and obedience to God to be able to do it(can you tell I speak from experience?. lol.)
I also agree that women talk more about their marriages and husbands etc, (and their their side of any story of anything that goes wrong) is known, while men in general will tend to keep quiet, which isn't always in their best interests.
My husband knows all about that from his first marriage.The thing is that he trusts God, and says that He will vindicate him, and therefore he didn't feel the need to do the same as her, and go round telling others bad/twisted things about her as she did.
We can build up or tear down our marriages with our words, so we do need to be very careful what we say.
I also think that the term 'abuse' is used far to readily and easily these days, for many things that simply arent abuse in the real sense.
May I ask, where abouts in the UK are you from?
Hey guys! Guess what? I'm going to reveal the solution to this problem for the 1,759,374th time on this topic! Drum roll please... ::band::
Why don't we all...grow up by not complaining and love one another as we SHOULD? It even says it in the Bible, do everything without complaining or arguing. Now let's look at the "turn the other cheek" verse. Somebody slaps you across the face. Which takes more of a man? Strike back...or turn the other cheek? Anybody can strike back. That's HUMAN nature. However, it takes a real MAN to turn the other cheek. Jesus was a real man, wasn't he? I mean, he's the striking image of our Heavenly Father and is sinless, as we should all strive to be. Let me recall what he did when he was on trial, on the road to crucifixion, etc. Oh, that's right. He turned the other cheek and didn't strike back. That took more of a man than to unleash his power by striking them down with lightning.
You see, Jesus put all of His Faith and efforts and actions into His Father's Hands. The four Gospels, and the whole New Testament for that matter, was all apart of God's all perfect Plan. GOD'S! Not ours, God's. Who are we to think that we know all about this and how to fix it? How sad, really. All of our human efforts with FAIL without the Father's help. FAIL!!!!!!!!! I wish I could have put that word in 72 font. Even that wouldn't begin to emphasize it enough.
Who are we to think we are men for what WE do? Man, how pathetic! We are nothing without God. A fairly bold statement, but I stand firm on it; it would be hard for me to believe that a person is an actual Christian if they do not depend on God for ALL things, this included. We need to put our dignity aside and TRUST IN GOD AND HIS ALMIGHTY POWER! Gosh. There, I said it. Pray about this problem and the thousands of others going on in this sinful world.
Now that we know the solution, let's celebrate with a par-tay!!! ::noworries::
I disagree wolflet.
Turn the other cheek still isn't meant to communicate agreeableness to injustice.
Jesus didn't "strike people with lightning" but he got himself into plenty of trouble (as did every man of God) for speaking against the flow of a crowd. Paul spoke that way in his letters. Jesus spoke around Jerusalem like that all the time.
Cowardly behavior is often called "Christlike" as you describe, wolflet. Yet, if you pay attention to what Jesus actually did in the gospels with how he spoke to people, as well as the apostles, you'll realize your call to "Christlike behavior" bears little resemblance.
We must walk as Christ did.
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 17:39:19
: chosenone Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:36:55
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:26:22
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:21:52
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.
Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .
Its sad that those women don't realise that submission is actually a very strong quality, and for a strong woman, it takes a lot of discipline and obedience to God to be able to do it(can you tell I speak from experience?. lol.)
I also agree that women talk more about their marriages and husbands etc, (and their their side of any story of anything that goes wrong) is known, while men in general will tend to keep quiet, which isn't always in their best interests.
My husband knows all about that from his first marriage.The thing is that he trusts God, and says that He will vindicate him, and therefore he didn't feel the need to do the same as her, and go round telling others bad/twisted things about her as she did.
We can build up or tear down our marriages with our words, so we do need to be very careful what we say.
I also think that the term 'abuse' is used far to readily and easily these days, for many things that simply arent abuse in the real sense.
May I ask, where abouts in the UK are you from?
South Central. How about you?
You're still not getting what I'm saying. We, as humans, have to lay down ALL of our efforts and put our faith in the One whose image we bear. Our Heavenly Father is perfect and knows all and can work in ANY situation.
If you don't pray about the situation, then good luck with it getting better. Just know that nothing can happen without God's help FIRST and FOREMOST; above our actions and comprehensions.
: wolflet7 Mon May 28, 2012 - 23:38:51
You're still not getting what I'm saying. We, as humans, have to lay down ALL of our efforts and put our faith in the One whose image we bear. Our Heavenly Father is perfect and knows all and can work in ANY situation.
If you don't pray about the situation, then good luck with it getting better. Just know that nothing can happen without God's help FIRST and FOREMOST; above our actions and comprehensions.
Once again wolflet I agree with this statement.
But it keeps sounding like you have a criticism with somebody around here. I guess we're not communicating too well.
Honestly, I'm with both sides. I agree that some females are getting a little too out of hand and we should address it, however, the methods/motives that you and ObeyTheGospel are sharing are not within mutual agreement; I do not feel as if the methods/motives are putting this in God's Hands and instead are based mostly on human action instead of spiritual.
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 01:19:47
Honestly, I'm with both sides. I agree that some females are getting a little too out of hand and we should address it, however, the methods/motives that you and ObeyTheGospel are sharing are not within mutual agreement; I do not feel as if the methods/motives are putting this in God's Hands and instead are based mostly on human action instead of spiritual.
Do you think you could get more specific?
I don't agree with all of your and ObeyTheGospel's attributes of what makes a man. Imo, Jesus was the manliest human being ever. If we aspire to be men, we must act in accordance with Jesus. Do we have as much authority as Him? Of course not. Therefore, it doesn't particularly make us men to speak out against an issue if we don't center it around Jesus' actions and allow Him to move in and through this situation; if that means action, then action should take place in the name of the Lord, not our own ways.
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 10:45:23
I don't agree with all of your and ObeyTheGospel's attributes of what makes a man. Imo, Jesus was the manliest human being ever. If we aspire to be men, we must act in accordance with Jesus. Do we have as much authority as Him? Of course not. Therefore, it doesn't particularly make us men to speak out against an issue if we don't center it around Jesus' actions and allow Him to move in and through this situation; if that means action, then action should take place in the name of the Lord, not our own ways.
Sorry, but for me, this is still not specific enough to be understandable. I still do not know what your protest is.
I don't know how to explain it in any other way than what I've posted.
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 22:06:50We must walk as Christ did.
And how should we do this?
: wolflet7 Mon May 28, 2012 - 21:44:14
Hey guys! Guess what? I'm going to reveal the solution to this problem for the 1,759,374th time on this topic! Drum roll please... ::band::
Why don't we all...grow up by not complaining and love one another as we SHOULD? It even says it in the Bible, do everything without complaining or arguing. Now let's look at the "turn the other cheek" verse. Somebody slaps you across the face. Which takes more of a man? Strike back...or turn the other cheek? Anybody can strike back. That's HUMAN nature. However, it takes a real MAN to turn the other cheek. Jesus was a real man, wasn't he? I mean, he's the striking image of our Heavenly Father and is sinless, as we should all strive to be. Let me recall what he did when he was on trial, on the road to crucifixion, etc. Oh, that's right. He turned the other cheek and didn't strike back. That took more of a man than to unleash his power by striking them down with lightning.
You see, Jesus put all of His Faith and efforts and actions into His Father's Hands. The four Gospels, and the whole New Testament for that matter, was all apart of God's all perfect Plan. GOD'S! Not ours, God's. Who are we to think that we know all about this and how to fix it? How sad, really. All of our human efforts with FAIL without the Father's help. FAIL!!!!!!!!! I wish I could have put that word in 72 font. Even that wouldn't begin to emphasize it enough.
Who are we to think we are men for what WE do? Man, how pathetic! We are nothing without God. A fairly bold statement, but I stand firm on it; it would be hard for me to believe that a person is an actual Christian if they do not depend on God for ALL things, this included. We need to put our dignity aside and TRUST IN GOD AND HIS ALMIGHTY POWER! Gosh. There, I said it. Pray about this problem and the thousands of others going on in this sinful world.
Now that we know the solution, let's celebrate with a par-tay!!! ::noworries::
Yes, it would be nice if we could all get along and love each other as Christ commanded us. However, it worries me when I hear people, especially Christians, say things like, "We need to respect women no matter what."
Such ridiculous statements need to be rebuked. Besides, the Bible does encourage us to rebuke our brothers and sisters if they are in the wrong. The reason I responded is because I'm bewildered as to how you justify such a statement. Would you ever say that men need to be respected no matter what? And if not, why not? You said it about women so why can't you say it about men? It kinda reminds me of animal farm: "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
Let me also remind you that Jesus rebuked people who were in the wrong. A real man will also rebuke wrong-doings. You're taking the "turn the other cheek" way out of context. The meaning that Jesus was trying to convey is to not repay evil for evil. But in no way was Jesus saying that we cannot rebuke evil. For example, if someone was to slap me on my right cheek or steal my wallet, I could forgive and pray for that person. However, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to voice my opinion and say that what this person did was wrong and evil. Christians have every right to rebuke people who do wrong.
My point is, we live in an age where it is rammed down our throats that we have to respect women, but not vice-versa. I now come across women who think it's perfectly acceptable to speak to men like their scum, that they don't need any respect. What society should do is teach us to respect everyone, men and women, equally. But like I've said, we live in a society that has the animal farm mentality:
"All humans are equal but some humans are more equal than others."
If you have ever seen animal farm, you are aware that the animals that came to power, the pigs, thought that the other animals did not need respect.
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 11:52:57Would you ever say that men need to be respected no matter what? And if not, why not? You said it about women so why can't you say it about men? It kinda reminds me of animal farm: "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
I was not aware we are to respect all women or all men; we may not respect them...regardless, we are called to love them.
See 1Corinthians 13...for God's Love, the most excellent way...
We are called to "honor" our wife as the weaker vessel; that would mean "deep respect". We are also called to love her...as Christ loved the church. How many of us have deep respect for our wife...how many of us love our wife as Christ loved the church?
We can only achieve this love and honor through the Holy Ghost; man's effort will always fall short...thus causing what we are seeing in the world today...
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 12:12:55
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 11:52:57Would you ever say that men need to be respected no matter what? And if not, why not? You said it about women so why can't you say it about men? It kinda reminds me of animal farm: "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
I was not aware we are to respect all women or all men; we may not respect them...regardless, we are called to love them.
See 1Corinthians 13...for God's Love, the most excellent way...
We are called to "honor" our wife as the weaker vessel; that would mean "deep respect". We are also called to love her...as Christ loved the church. How many of us have deep respect for our wife...how many of us love our wife as Christ loved the church?
We can only achieve this love and honor through the Holy Ghost; man's effort will always fall short...thus causing what we are seeing in the world today...
I was making a point about peoples mentality. It wasn't I who said that we need to respect women no matter what, it was the other Christian guy. I was simply refuting him by saying that both men and women should be respected, not just women.
You do bring up some good points here. Nevertheless, me, Thankfulldad, chosenone, and others have voiced our solutions - loving them in a Christ-like manner and bringing the matter before the Lord through prayer and love - and I would like to hear your solution. I haven't been able to make out a clear solution to this problem.
And for the record, I believe I have said that women AND men should be respected. And in case I didn't make the point clear, men AND women should be treated equally. Please, if you're going to reason with me do NOT tell me or anybody else something that I did NOT say. I believe I even said this in an earlier post. You might have forgotten it a few pages ago.
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 12:59:18
You do bring up some good points here. Nevertheless, me, Thankfulldad, chosenone, and others have voiced our solutions - loving them in a Christ-like manner and bringing the matter before the Lord through prayer and love - and I would like to hear your solution. I haven't been able to make out a clear solution to this problem.
And for the record, I believe I have said that women AND men should be respected. And in case I didn't make the point clear, men AND women should be treated equally. Please, if you're going to reason with me do NOT tell me or anybody else something that I did NOT say. I believe I even said this in an earlier post. You might have forgotten it a few pages ago.
People can go back and see that you wrote we need to respect women no matter what. But you did not say the same thing about men, not until after I refuted you. Only then did you say that men should also be respected, but you didn't at first.
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 11:22:31
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 22:06:50We must walk as Christ did.
And how should we do this?
Even if you don't speak against evil when you see it, you should at least be a "presence" that disagrees with it.
So many people say "love love love" around here and I think they have a Bible cartoon Jesus in mind with that, but in any case it's left very vague.
The outside world says "love" too. They'll accuse people who are against homosexuality and simply consider it to be sinful--no matter how quiet they are--not to be properly "loving" to them. Working off of that example, you might speak against the practice and the fact that people wrongfully accept the behavior, or you can at least be a PRESENCE standing your ground quietly that others will probably not be able to help but to notice.
To go yet further with that example, I wouldn't put up with you telling me that I shouldn't speak against the practice of homosexuality because doing so isn't "loving people in a Christlike fashion" or anything along those lines. Likewise, nor will I put up with you accusing me of not being "loving" in a Christlike fashion for speaking against things I brought up in this thread.
You make Jesus out to be complacent. I don't even want to think about how you've accepted this attitude, but the paradox of getting after people who care--again, forget it. You're doing as the enemy would have you.
Yes, you refuted me on it before you typed up that response to Thankfulldad, not just recently. You refuted me a couple pages back, so don't say/act like you just did.
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 13:10:39
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 12:59:18
You do bring up some good points here. Nevertheless, me, Thankfulldad, chosenone, and others have voiced our solutions - loving them in a Christ-like manner and bringing the matter before the Lord through prayer and love - and I would like to hear your solution. I haven't been able to make out a clear solution to this problem.
And for the record, I believe I have said that women AND men should be respected. And in case I didn't make the point clear, men AND women should be treated equally. Please, if you're going to reason with me do NOT tell me or anybody else something that I did NOT say. I believe I even said this in an earlier post. You might have forgotten it a few pages ago.
People can go back and see that you wrote we need to respect women no matter what. But you did not say the same thing about men, not until after I refuted you. Only then did you say that men should also be respected, but you didn't at first.
Objection, Your Honor. Argumentative!!
"So many people say "love love love" around here and I think they have a Bible cartoon Jesus in mind with that, but in any case it's left very vague."...Cally
... I have to disagree. And I don't see anyone here saying that Christ was complacent. What he showed us was how to take our battle to a higher ground.
: Cally Tue May 29, 2012 - 17:03:36
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 11:22:31
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 22:06:50We must walk as Christ did.
And how should we do this?
Even if you don't speak against evil when you see it, you should at least be a "presence" that disagrees with it.
So many people say "love love love" around here and I think they have a Bible cartoon Jesus in mind with that, but in any case it's left very vague.
The outside world says "love" too. They'll accuse people who are against homosexuality and simply consider it to be sinful--no matter how quiet they are--not to be properly "loving" to them. Working off of that example, you might speak against the practice and the fact that people wrongfully accept the behavior, or you can at least be a PRESENCE standing your ground quietly that others will probably not be able to help but to notice.
To go yet further with that example, I wouldn't put up with you telling me that I shouldn't speak against the practice of homosexuality because doing so isn't "loving people in a Christlike fashion" or anything along those lines. Likewise, nor will I put up with you accusing me of not being "loving" in a Christlike fashion for speaking against things I brought up in this thread.
You make Jesus out to be complacent. I don't even want to think about how you've accepted this attitude, but the paradox of getting after people who care--again, forget it. You're doing as the enemy would have you.
So we are to be critical of others...?
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
Let's see if I can paint an image to get my point across that's kind of similar to ones that I've been in.
Let's say you're at work and a few of your coworkers are talking about having a party of swinging (as much as I hate to even say it, I'm trying to use the term that I found out means exchanging wives for sex). They wouldn't have to spend much time around me to realize that they shouldn't even bother talking to me--I'd have nothing to do with it.
Furthermore, if they had simply heard that I'm a Bible-believing Christian, they wouldn't even bother asking if I would be involved in such a thing.
It's something that the general world recognizes as considered evil by just about everyone who claims to have any morals.
Now why is that so? I would say that perhaps a good chunk of the general world has clearly renounced such practices on the whole within earshot of virtually everyone.
What's my solution? To train the similar sort of result with feminist ideas. Am I agreeable to feminism? Nope, because I'm a Bible-believing Christian. Whether someone has to say such a thing once or be associated with a belief system, the point is that the message got out somehow. I wouldn't have to be obnoxious about it (or not just obnoxious, but even someone who actively proclaims it), but as the issue comes up, it's just understood--no one would expect differently. That's what I mean by being a "presence" with one's beliefs.
Quite simply, it's understood that I consider a behavior or attitude as "not okay." Yet, interpersonally, I'd ultimately want to be as kind and show myself as well-meaning to others as I possibly could. The stage of the game of discussing among believers is a bit different, because that's sort of the meeting phase of everything and where the game plans are made.
That's my outlook, more or less. I mean, that's what I'd do out in the world. It's probably nothing you've never heard before. ::shrug::
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:08:27
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.
Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. ::amen!::
I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not exactly equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...
When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing. With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.
Or...
I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women ::frown::
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:25:27
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:08:27
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.
Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. ::amen!::
I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not quite equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...
When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing. With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.
Or...
I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women ::frown::
People who try and make a difference about a problem aren't saying "woe is me."
: Cally Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:26:59
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:25:27
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:08:27
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.
Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. ::amen!::
I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not quite equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...
When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing. With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.
Or...
I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women ::frown::
People who try and make a difference about a problem aren't saying "woe is me."
My apologies...however, it does come across that way now and again...
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:29:55
: Cally Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:26:59
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:25:27
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:08:27
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.
Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. ::amen!::
I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not quite equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...
When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing. With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.
Or...
I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women ::frown::
People who try and make a difference about a problem aren't saying "woe is me."
My apologies...however, it does come across that way now and again...
Let me lay this all out and see if I can make you understand.
The least you can do, as a drop in the bucket, is care. For example, years ago I could not believe the way I felt like the only person who cared when double standards felt really hurtful. Growing up, hearing all of this alleged history of "oppression of women" which I certainly saw no sighs of, and then seeing colleges award women-only scholarships while college attendance was/is predominantly female in the first place. It becomes clear very quickly that the agendas are absolutely hateful. The divorce courts are another example. A male childhood friend of mine was molested by a woman and the way that issue was treated was nothing like the way it would have if a man molested a girl.
It goes on and on--my generation entered a world hateful toward men. You can't miss it. If I tried to forget, something would remind me. It was indescribably awful feeling like the only one who cared.
Some people are saying "backlash" but the world keeps on claiming to care about justice--whichever side its individuals claim to be on. The question is: who is it that actually DOES care about justice rather than observing, "this is just backlash" in this case. From where I was at the time, nobody. Absolutely nobody.
But years later, I realized I was wrong, and that I wasn't alone. Everybody can't pick every battle there is out there, probably, but it is refreshing not to keep being tested for whether you're the one person in the room not calling a dog a cat. Seeing many other men and women out there recognizing the overwhelmingly obvious condition of things is comforting.
On the other hand, many things going on in "Men's Rights Movements" are every bit as crazy as things going on in feminism. I'd rather see Christianity handle it PROPERLY.
I crave to see the day when I can safely say, Christianity produced something better than the general world. That is to say, I've never found safety in churches (just using this as an example). Everybody's getting together and enduring each other enough just to sit side-by-side but how is that any better than sitting with others in a movie theater? What if church was an actual sanctuary relative to the rest of the world? When it's full of people who won't touch any issue with a 20-foot pole, you can't know.
To round this off, I'm trying to reinforce this point: "BE A PRESENCE." If somebody ELSE out there is wondering if there's anybody else in the world who cares about right and wrong, you can be a light in the darkness. Oftentimes you'll get yourself into big trouble doing so because of the attitudes around you, but that's why you have to have guts and faith.
I know some anti-feminists male and female who lament how poorly these issues are confronted in church and THEY endure flak, and that's encouraging to me.
After I'm encouraged, I want to be a part of that. More and more and more people (men and women both) are coming out of the woodwork and some are about ten times as on fire about this subject as I am. Are they making a difference? You bet, because it's a comfort to know someone cares, and it's starting to go a lot farther than that.
Actually, as a sidenote, this is probably what caused me to get serious about God; this was when I recognized, alone, that I had better turn to God for love, because no one else had it. AT THE TIME (NOT anymore, mind you) I was forced to recognize that I had better turn to God for this and get to know him, because he's the only one I could have turned to. Scriptures set me free, and I got to know God personally.
How many more ways can I make my point? How about this: It's not good that Fathers let this happen to their sons and have nothing to say really on the subject. It's not good for sons to see their fathers weak in this area.
Thanks for the solutions guys. It feels like we are getting on the right track. Earlier it felt like you guys were somewhat leaving God out of this situation and I wasn't going to stand there and watch. Every situation can be made perfect through the Lord.
Mutual agreements ftw!! ::applause::
Now how's about we stop debating and keep all the other topics under 8 pages mkay? ::noworries::
As tough as it is to classic male machismo, us guys need to learn to say when something hurts.
Who knows? You might find that there are women who care (there are).
I think basic injustice has to do with people believing they have"entitlements" in any given relationship. My husband, especially, watches a lot of court shows here, and it's just a pattern which seems to repeat itself over and over. More and more judges, it seems, are beginning to bring morality into the picture. So maybe society is now attempting to turn back the tide? I hope so.
It's just plain wrong thinking.. and it is hurtful. Women are easily as guilty of this as men.
There's an advertising clip from one of my favorite judges.. when she shouts "It's time to woman up and be a parent!"
Ah well... it's kinda a bit OT in many respects. Just wanted to share a bit of hope...
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:28:09
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:26:22
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:21:52
: Cally Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:18:21
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:15:08
: ObeyTheGospel Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:11:55
: MeMyself Mon May 28, 2012 - 13:06:45
I just want to say...
I've got NO problem following my husband's leadership.
However...I get *real* nervous when it comes up like this.
I repeat again. You are one woman. The church is filled with women who despise a man's leadership, and the church is also filled with men who don't bother obeying their roles as a husband. My point is that both genders need to obey their roles, but unfortunately feminism is now sticking its evil claws into the church.
Based on what? The word and opinions of men? Didn't you poo poo the words of women based on a character flaw shared by the gender?
I know at least a handful of women who say things definitely to the effect of feminism having its evil claws in the church and being angry that pastors don't address it.
True story.
So, we are using personal stories to give credit to feminism in the church,
BUT
We are not giving personal stories about men who abuse their "role" in marriages, because most women just want to have a good nag or gossip?
::headscratch::
::shrug::
::frown::
Well, I would think of two things there. Number 1, many (MANY) women flat-out do not believe that women do any sort of "submitting" as women. Number 2, not that I'd particularly call them "gossips," but the woman's side of the story comes out a LOT more often than the man's.
Beyond that, sure it's possible . . .
I agree women "vent" more through words,
but
men "vent" in other ways IMO.
A bitter root is not just about what is exposed and seen (or heard)...lots are tucked away nicely in the heart.
HOW TRUE! Manna to you on THAT!
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:25:27
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:08:27
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.
Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. ::amen!::
I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not exactly equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...
When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing. With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.
Or...
I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women ::frown::
"and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8)
If you think that the gospel has nothing to do with obedience then I guess you need to study your Bible more, no offense. This is not my opinion, I'm quoting you this from the Bible.
: ObeyTheGospel Wed May 30, 2012 - 11:03:24
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:25:27
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:08:27
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.
Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. ::amen!::
I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not exactly equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...
When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing. With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.
Or...
I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women ::frown::
"and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8)
If you think that the gospel has nothing to do with obedience then I guess you need to study your Bible more, no offense. This is not my opinion, I'm quoting you this from the Bible.
Paul is talking to believers; the saved...those in Christ Jesus. We are to obey Jesus (Who is the Gospel)...His Spirit living in us; that is where surrender comes in, giving ourself up for Jesus living in us. Then, His faith, hope and love shine through...and others know we are set apart.
: Thankfulldad Wed May 30, 2012 - 11:21:28
: ObeyTheGospel Wed May 30, 2012 - 11:03:24
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:25:27
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:08:27
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.
Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. ::amen!::
I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not exactly equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...
When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing. With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.
Or...
I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women ::frown::
"and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8)
If you think that the gospel has nothing to do with obedience then I guess you need to study your Bible more, no offense. This is not my opinion, I'm quoting you this from the Bible.
Paul is talking to believers; the saved...those in Christ Jesus. We are to obey Jesus (Who is the Gospel)...His Spirit living in us; that is where surrender comes in, giving ourself up for Jesus living in us. Then, His faith, hope and love shine through...and others know we are set apart.
"We are to obey Jesus"
Thank you. At last we can agree on something.
: Cally Tue May 29, 2012 - 22:06:39
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:29:55
: Cally Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:26:59
: Thankfulldad Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:25:27
: ObeyTheGospel Tue May 29, 2012 - 21:08:27
: wolflet7 Tue May 29, 2012 - 18:18:53
And we still haven't heard about a solution from you. If you're going to bring our solutions down, you're going to need to provide one of your own, unless of course you don't have one
My solution is simple: Obey the gospel and treat each other equally.
Gospel means good news; not sure how you would obey such a perfect gift from God...His grace and mercy and shed blood for our sins. ::amen!::
I do agree we should treat each other with the simple idea of putting others above self...so, not quite equal...maybe 80% them and 20% me...
When it comes to God and surrender; my prayer (hope) is 100% God and 0% me...that would make me close to nothing. With God working through me; His purpose for my life would be evident...and others would know, the peace that God gives those who are intimate with Him...faith, trust, calm, sanity, patience...love.
Or...
I could fret, worry, complain and blame women, society, government for my dispair...woe is me, a mere man trampled on by women ::frown::
People who try and make a difference about a problem aren't saying "woe is me."
My apologies...however, it does come across that way now and again...
Let me lay this all out and see if I can make you understand.
The least you can do, as a drop in the bucket, is care. For example, years ago I could not believe the way I felt like the only person who cared when double standards felt really hurtful. Growing up, hearing all of this alleged history of "oppression of women" which I certainly saw no sighs of, and then seeing colleges award women-only scholarships while college attendance was/is predominantly female in the first place. It becomes clear very quickly that the agendas are absolutely hateful. The divorce courts are another example. A male childhood friend of mine was molested by a woman and the way that issue was treated was nothing like the way it would have if a man molested a girl.
It goes on and on--my generation entered a world hateful toward men. You can't miss it. If I tried to forget, something would remind me. It was indescribably awful feeling like the only one who cared.
Some people are saying "backlash" but the world keeps on claiming to care about justice--whichever side its individuals claim to be on. The question is: who is it that actually DOES care about justice rather than observing, "this is just backlash" in this case. From where I was at the time, nobody. Absolutely nobody.
But years later, I realized I was wrong, and that I wasn't alone. Everybody can't pick every battle there is out there, probably, but it is refreshing not to keep being tested for whether you're the one person in the room not calling a dog a cat. Seeing many other men and women out there recognizing the overwhelmingly obvious condition of things is comforting.
On the other hand, many things going on in "Men's Rights Movements" are every bit as crazy as things going on in feminism. I'd rather see Christianity handle it PROPERLY.
I crave to see the day when I can safely say, Christianity produced something better than the general world. That is to say, I've never found safety in churches (just using this as an example). Everybody's getting together and enduring each other enough just to sit side-by-side but how is that any better than sitting with others in a movie theater? What if church was an actual sanctuary relative to the rest of the world? When it's full of people who won't touch any issue with a 20-foot pole, you can't know.
To round this off, I'm trying to reinforce this point: "BE A PRESENCE." If somebody ELSE out there is wondering if there's anybody else in the world who cares about right and wrong, you can be a light in the darkness. Oftentimes you'll get yourself into big trouble doing so because of the attitudes around you, but that's why you have to have guts and faith.
I know some anti-feminists male and female who lament how poorly these issues are confronted in church and THEY endure flak, and that's encouraging to me.
After I'm encouraged, I want to be a part of that. More and more and more people (men and women both) are coming out of the woodwork and some are about ten times as on fire about this subject as I am. Are they making a difference? You bet, because it's a comfort to know someone cares, and it's starting to go a lot farther than that.
Actually, as a sidenote, this is probably what caused me to get serious about God; this was when I recognized, alone, that I had better turn to God for love, because no one else had it. AT THE TIME (NOT anymore, mind you) I was forced to recognize that I had better turn to God for this and get to know him, because he's the only one I could have turned to. Scriptures set me free, and I got to know God personally.
How many more ways can I make my point? How about this: It's not good that Fathers let this happen to their sons and have nothing to say really on the subject. It's not good for sons to see their fathers weak in this area.
I know exactly how you feel. I have often thought if I'm the only one who cares about the double standards that are used against men. But I'm just going to repeat what I've said all along:
There is an old saying: "A lie told often enough becomes true." Adolph Hitler used the same tactic. He believed that if you repeated a lie often enough, eventually people would come to believe it. Hitler believed that brainwashing a generation would give you power and control. And this is the same tactics that the feminists have used.
When someone tries to justify the mistreatment of men by saying that women are backlashing due to years of oppression, are these people able to provide some evidence of this, or are they just repeating the propaganda of feminists? "Female oppression" is such a popular and widespread saying, that people believe it as a fact. However, if you were to ask these people for some evidence, they would begin to twiddle their thumbs. They might use the old chest nut that women were not allowed to vote and were made to stay in the kitchen, but that's about the best they could do. Anything else they say is simply based on the fairy tales of feminism. If not, then they need to provide us the evidence.
For example, I could start a movement that promoted the sufferings of men. I could claim that for thousands of years most women have used men for money and would often cheat on their husbands while he was at work. If I kept repeating this, like the feminists, eventually people would start believing it. Remember, a lie told often enough becomes true. However, if someone did critical thinking and asked me to provide some evidence, I wouldn't be able to. I would be able to give assumptions, but no real evidence. It's the same with the feminists. They are well known for promoting falsehood and propaganda for the puropse of causing prejudice against men. But very few people acually ask them for evidence.
"Female oppression" is an excuse for women to justify their prejuduce agianst men. Not all women do this, of course; but there is a growing number of women who do. I would like to know exactly how women were oppressed. Men often had it hard, too. When people say women were oppressed for thousands of years, are they able to give us an example? Are they able to tell us exactly how women were oppressed for thousands of years with real facts? If not, then why believe it? I believe at times women have indeed been oppressed, but nowhere near to the extent that the feminists claim.
Peace!
Wikipedia..
A "backlash" is a popular negative reaction to something which has gained popularity, prominence, or influence. Although it can sometimes represent a categorical rejection of the idea, aesthetic, product, or fad in question, it is usually a reflection of a collective resentment of that thing's ubiquity in culture and media, rather than a denial of its existence. The term is commonly applied to gender and racial discrimination and religious discrimination against minority groups, as well, such as in response to certain events or circumstances (e.g. the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001).
Still... two wrongs do not make a right. There is a lot of anger in a backlash. Anger is a nasty thing.. as anger is self fueling. I don't care to argue the degree of oppression, real or imagined. But I will say that a significant portion of the oppression is real. But, yes. Feminists have been guilty of exaggerating. A chunk of feminists "truths" are actually more like myths, and only based on some core of truth. Men and women alike are now trying to sort fact from fiction.. so that's a good thing.
I'm old enough to have experienced a portion of all this unfolding. Clarity here hasn't been easy. Women's lot has been almost wholly an implicit aspect of societies throughout history. It's hard to dig out the implicit! History itself really is written from the male perspective, yada yada. ::smile::
"Oppression of women."
Believe me I have seen plenty of it. My dad used to preach it as gospel. He had the stance (taught to him in seminary) that "wives submit to your husbands" meant that every woman was to grovel at the feet of the men in her life. So much so that he seriously chewed out my brother in law for not making his wife (my sister) wait on him hand and foot. I watched him beat the living !@#$%^& out of my mother. The neighbors called the police who did nothing even though she had broken bones. They took his statement and sent him on to his bowling game.
Our family's story is far from unique. That oppression is not a fairy tale.
OTOH, as far as backlash goes, any man that cannot weather whatever 'abuse' a woman can hand him is no man in my book.
"Take it like a man"
: DaveW Thu May 31, 2012 - 12:48:36
OTOH, as far as backlash goes, any man that cannot weather whatever 'abuse' a woman can hand him is no man in my book.
"Take it like a man"
I don't agree with this at all.
There are women who can be just vicious...
and NO person should just take or weather abuse in any form IMO!
: MeMyself Thu May 31, 2012 - 12:53:43
: DaveW Thu May 31, 2012 - 12:48:36
OTOH, as far as backlash goes, any man that cannot weather whatever 'abuse' a woman can hand him is no man in my book.
"Take it like a man"
I don't agree with this at all.
There are women who can be just vicious...
and NO person should just take or weather abuse in any form IMO!
Absolutely. Women can be incredibly abusive both physically and emotionally. They can be very cruel.
: DaveW Thu May 31, 2012 - 12:48:36
OTOH, as far as backlash goes, any man that cannot weather whatever 'abuse' a woman can hand him is no man in my book.
"Take it like a man"
Garbage, and to men, this is murder.
Allow me to explain. It doesn't matter if she's 90 years old and has to use a walker and he's a body-builder who can bench 800 pounds and martial arts master: if she has the will to do him harm, and society not only refuses to protect him but also forbids him from protecting himself, he's as good as dead and the culture is guilty of murder.
And that's exactly what modern culture has done to men. This very attitude is murder.
PS--it's also profound spiritual bondage and personally I'm done with it.
PSPS--that's the kind of old-school male-chauvinistic inequality that feminists actually like. Without it, feminism couldn't have lasted this long and done the things that it has.
From what I've seen, both men and women alike now go to jail in domestic violence disputes. What is sad is that anyone, male or female, would think that abuse in any way expresses some form of love.
TY, DaveW. The oppression was real.. and it did go that deep in many families. Do men now really have it as bad as women did when our generation was growing up? No way. It was not that males too could not be oppressed. It was societies willingness to allow women to be the scapegoat; regardless of the degree.
I am grateful that things are no longer like they were. We can build from the now. There's a lot that can still be improved upon. But the one thing, I hope, that many will consider to be a positive outcome of the feminist movement is that people can now better see men and women alike as human beings first and foremost. So, let us see were that takes us?
If aspects of the movement pit men and women against each other, then it is not good. Or else it something that goes deep and is need of deeper understanding, acceptance, redress and forgiveness.
If OTOH means that men would be a lot better off having the wherewithal to grasp where the backlash is/was coming from? Then I agree. Not only men, but women as well. If the horse is dead, then there is no longer a need to beat it. But you can't say it never existed.
: Kindle Thu May 31, 2012 - 15:22:35
From what I've seen, both men and women alike now go to jail in domestic violence disputes. What is sad is that anyone, male or female, would think that abuse in any way expresses some form of love.
TY, DaveW. The oppression was real.. and it did go that deep in many families. Do men now really have it as bad as women did when our generation was growing up? No way. It was not that males too could not be oppressed. It was societies willingness to allow women to be the scapegoat; regardless of the degree.
I am grateful that things are no longer like they were. We can build from the now. There's a lot that can still be improved upon. But the one thing, I hope, that many will consider to be a positive outcome of the feminist movement is that people can now better see men and women alike as human beings first and foremost. So, let us see were that takes us?
If aspects of the movement pit men and women against each other, then it is not good. Or else it something that goes deep and is need of deeper understanding, acceptance, redress and forgiveness.
If OTOH means that men would be a lot better off having the wherewithal to grasp where the backlash is/was coming from? Then I agree. Not only men, but women as well. If the horse is dead, then there is no longer a need to beat it. But you can't say it never existed.
(http://i.imgur.com/4x0hK.jpg)
Feminism has shown that women in the oppressive old days took this for granted: chivalry.
It's dead, feminism killed it. Men have always been doing jobs that are more dangerous to their lives than women.
There's a phrase floating out there right now among "Men's Rights Activists": male disposability. I could link you to a video that does a really good job explaining that attitude being every bit as prevalent as "The oppression of women" in the dreaded "back then."
Men are supposed to be on the frontlines of war, pick life-threatening career paths. That's been an expectation on men, not women.
You don't hear feminists complaining about that. In fact, there are hardly any women out there complaining about that, even among those who consider the new attitudes of equality to be so enlightened.
Cally,
PM the link to me if you like. Or show it here for others to see as well. Al life is precious, and war is .. ::frown::
: Kindle Thu May 31, 2012 - 18:24:10
Cally,
PM the link to me if you like. Or show it here for others to see as well. Al life is precious, and war is .. ::frown::
I'd hesitate to put it up here because it's a long video and I'm not sure if I remember it being totally free of possibly objectionable content (you know how YouTube is).
But the vlogger's name is "girlwriteswhat." (you can check that out on YouTube) She writes ferociously anti-feminist work and does a pretty good job of doing it in an even-handed fashion. I haven't had time to see too many of her videos, but what I've seen is solid common sense.
: DaveW Thu May 31, 2012 - 12:41:40
"Oppression of women."
Believe me I have seen plenty of it. My dad used to preach it as gospel. He had the stance (taught to him in seminary) that "wives submit to your husbands" meant that every woman was to grovel at the feet of the men in her life. So much so that he seriously chewed out my brother in law for not making his wife (my sister) wait on him hand and foot. I watched him beat the living !@#$%^& out of my mother. The neighbors called the police who did nothing even though she had broken bones. They took his statement and sent him on to his bowling game.
Our family's story is far from unique. That oppression is not a fairy tale.
Dave,
Your post made me cry. I am so sorry to hear that about your poor mother. It brought back very painful memories that I try not to go near if I can help it. I watched my father maul my mother more than once, smash the furniture into pieces, throw all the dishes and bowls of food off the table onto the floor, etc. He would come home late in the night after drinking and being with his filthy, barfly girlfriend, my mother would be pretending to be asleep she was so scared, and he would grab her hair and throw her out of bed onto the floor and maul her. Sometimes when it would get late and he still wasn't home we knew he would be coming home drunk again and my mother, knowing what was sure to come, would actually be shaking with fear and take me and my younger sister and get out of our home in a hurry. We would have to go stay with whoever would take us in for a night. It was horrifying and so degrading.
My mother took us girls and actually left my father 6 times (got our own apartment or house) and went back with him every time because he would come to her and beg and say he wouldn't do it again. He knew he would, he just didn't like not having the convenience of my mother to use and abuse. Plain truth! The last time she left she never went back and years later she got a divorce, but she never remarried. She was asked several times, but she never trusted her heart nor life to a man again.
And I, myself, know what it feels like to be physically mauled and verbally battered, etc. and at least for me, the pain inside never goes away.
I can only say I hate SOME of the things feminists stand for.
Cally,
After looking at your cartoons I want to ask: If some (I'm sure not all) guys today don't like being chivalrous or thought of as being chivalrous or paying for a meal, why do they ask women out? Obviously, some guy or guys somewhere don't like it or the cartoon wouldn't exist. So why take a woman out to dinner and pay for the meal while resenting it? Doesn't make sense.
: Lavender Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 02:17:36
Cally,
After looking at your cartoons I want to ask: If some (I'm sure not all) guys today don't like being chivalrous or thought of as being chivalrous or paying for a meal, why do they ask women out? Obviously, some guy or guys somewhere don't like it or the cartoon wouldn't exist. So why take a woman out to dinner and pay for the meal while resenting it? Doesn't make sense.
The point is, it's an inequality that women tend to be far less inclined to complain about.
It is not uncommon to hear women expect both "equality" and special treatment (chivalry). THAT'S what doesn't make sense, except to make a situation that is oppressive to men.
Men and women both are calling out this hypocrisy these days, and man do they mean it. I could link you to a video of a young woman ranting at women/girls who expect boyfriends to buy them things all the time, pay for dinner, etc. and yet they claim to want equality except it's loaded with profanity--she's pretty spot-on. After supposing that women have had the bad end of the bargain for all history, we need to see what happens when true equality comes into the picture, complete with no more "women and children first" (just children, hopefully) and things of that sort.
: DaveW Thu May 31, 2012 - 12:41:40
"Oppression of women."
Believe me I have seen plenty of it. My dad used to preach it as gospel. He had the stance (taught to him in seminary) that "wives submit to your husbands" meant that every woman was to grovel at the feet of the men in her life. So much so that he seriously chewed out my brother in law for not making his wife (my sister) wait on him hand and foot. I watched him beat the living !@#$%^& out of my mother. The neighbors called the police who did nothing even though she had broken bones. They took his statement and sent him on to his bowling game.
Our family's story is far from unique. That oppression is not a fairy tale.
I've also seen many women oppress men. What's your point?
: DaveW Thu May 31, 2012 - 12:48:36
OTOH, as far as backlash goes, any man that cannot weather whatever 'abuse' a woman can hand him is no man in my book.
"Take it like a man"
Taking it like a man is respecting yourself and standing your ground. You do not feed into the drama that others around you create. You do need to take abuse of any sorts from anyone.
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 02:25:15
: Lavender Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 02:17:36
Cally,
After looking at your cartoons I want to ask: If some (I'm sure not all) guys today don't like being chivalrous or thought of as being chivalrous or paying for a meal, why do they ask women out? Obviously, some guy or guys somewhere don't like it or the cartoon wouldn't exist. So why take a woman out to dinner and pay for the meal while resenting it? Doesn't make sense.
The point is, it's an inequality that women tend to be far less inclined to complain about.
It is not uncommon to hear women expect both "equality" and special treatment (chivalry). THAT'S what doesn't make sense, except to make a situation that is oppressive to men.
Men and women both are calling out this hypocrisy these days, and man do they mean it. I could link you to a video of a young woman ranting at women/girls who expect boyfriends to buy them things all the time, pay for dinner, etc. and yet they claim to want equality except it's loaded with profanity--she's pretty spot-on. After supposing that women have had the bad end of the bargain for all history, we need to see what happens when true equality comes into the picture, complete with no more "women and children first" (just children, hopefully) and things of that sort.
Cally, we agree on something! ::clappingoverhead::
However, I found that not all women complain if the man does not pay. My last girlfriend, for example, paid for one of my movie tickets on one of our double dates AND for nachos. She also paid for our double date bowling night. I liked that about her; she didn't complain about the small things. She knew I had a single mother working two jobs to put bread on the table and the small town we were in didn't have too many job openings for a college student. In other words, she knew I didn't have money on hand.
However, there were some things I did NOT like about her. You can read all about it in my topic dubbed "Seriously?!"
Back to the subject, I liked how she didn't complain about paying for me when I obviously had no other way to go. Of course, those were the only two times she paid for me because those were the only two times we did something outside of her dorm.
I don't mean for this to sound harsh in any manner, but I wish some more women, like my last girlfriend, would step up to the plate and exchange turns to pay for the date. "Love keeps no record of wrongs". I believe that verse is in 1st Corinthians. Complaining if the man does not pay for ONE date out of the many he takes a woman on shows that she is spoiled/selfish. It shows that she does not see the things that her man provides her with, such as the thoughtfulness of planning the date, staying loyal, etc.
: wolflet7 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 10:57:14
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 02:25:15
: Lavender Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 02:17:36
Cally,
After looking at your cartoons I want to ask: If some (I'm sure not all) guys today don't like being chivalrous or thought of as being chivalrous or paying for a meal, why do they ask women out? Obviously, some guy or guys somewhere don't like it or the cartoon wouldn't exist. So why take a woman out to dinner and pay for the meal while resenting it? Doesn't make sense.
The point is, it's an inequality that women tend to be far less inclined to complain about.
It is not uncommon to hear women expect both "equality" and special treatment (chivalry). THAT'S what doesn't make sense, except to make a situation that is oppressive to men.
Men and women both are calling out this hypocrisy these days, and man do they mean it. I could link you to a video of a young woman ranting at women/girls who expect boyfriends to buy them things all the time, pay for dinner, etc. and yet they claim to want equality except it's loaded with profanity--she's pretty spot-on. After supposing that women have had the bad end of the bargain for all history, we need to see what happens when true equality comes into the picture, complete with no more "women and children first" (just children, hopefully) and things of that sort.
Cally, we agree on something! ::clappingoverhead::
However, I found that not all women complain if the man does not pay. My last girlfriend, for example, paid for one of my movie tickets on one of our double dates AND for nachos. She also paid for our double date bowling night. I liked that about her; she didn't complain about the small things. She knew I had a single mother working two jobs to put bread on the table and the small town we were in didn't have too many job openings for a college student. In other words, she knew I didn't have money on hand.
However, there were some things I did NOT like about her. You can read all about it in my topic dubbed "Seriously?!"
Back to the subject, I liked how she didn't complain about paying for me when I obviously had no other way to go. Of course, those were the only two times she paid for me because those were the only two times we did something outside of her dorm.
I don't mean for this to sound harsh in any manner, but I wish some more women, like my last girlfriend, would step up to the plate and exchange turns to pay for the date. "Love keeps no record of wrongs". I believe that verse is in 1st Corinthians. Complaining if the man does not pay for ONE date out of the many he takes a woman on shows that she is spoiled/selfish. It shows that she does not see the things that her man provides her with, such as the thoughtfulness of planning the date, staying loyal, etc.
To me it goes much deeper.
For a woman to enjoy equality but still treat a man like a piece of meat like the old "oppressive" days . . . yeah, I think many young women are getting the wake-up call. Like it or not, our parent generation killed chivalry. It's not what they had it mind. I guess they were hoping that our generation of men would just hate and hate ourselves so much. ::frown::
I saw this video and I thought, are girls really this mean?! You tell me what you think of this wolflet (in terms of how realistic this is):
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Um, you do realise that the point of the skit was to show what it would look like if boys treated girls the way girls are expected to treat boys, right?
PS-- yeah, I would hate to see anybody treat anybody like that, boyfriend to girlfriend or girlfriend to boyfriend.
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Yeah, watched it too...how does this show equality? It shows the guy to be a jerk and the girl to be a buffoon for going along with it.
She shoulda called some friends and had a FUN time instead of being with someone so rude. Even friends show each other more consideration and offer rides etc. ::frown::
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:04:00
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Yeah, watched it too...how does this show equality? It shows the guy to be a jerk and the girl to be a buffoon for going along with it.
She shoulda called some friends and had a FUN time instead of being with someone so rude. Even friends show each other more consideration and offer rides etc. ::frown::
rofl
Did you pay attention to the first few seconds of the video before the skit started?
That's why the skit was made!
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:01:55
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Um, you do realise that the point of the skit was to show what it would look like if boys treated girls the way girls are expected to treat boys, right?
PS-- yeah, I would hate to see anybody treat anybody like that, boyfriend to girlfriend or girlfriend to boyfriend.
Who expects girls to treat boys like this???
As a mom of sons, this would OUTRAGE me to have my precious boys treated like this..and if they thought they should tolerate this rudeness, I will have failed miserably!
People should treat one another with kindness, consideration and just plain good manners!
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:05:51
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:01:55
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Um, you do realise that the point of the skit was to show what it would look like if boys treated girls the way girls are expected to treat boys, right?
PS-- yeah, I would hate to see anybody treat anybody like that, boyfriend to girlfriend or girlfriend to boyfriend.
Who expects girls to treat boys like this???
As a mom of sons, this would OUTRAGE me to have my precious boys treated like this..and if they thought they should tolerate this rudeness, I will have failed miserably!
People should treat one another with kindness, consideration and just plain good manners!
I agree. ::smile::
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:05:05
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:04:00
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Yeah, watched it too...how does this show equality? It shows the guy to be a jerk and the girl to be a buffoon for going along with it.
She shoulda called some friends and had a FUN time instead of being with someone so rude. Even friends show each other more consideration and offer rides etc. ::frown::
rofl
Did you pay attention to the first few seconds of the video before the skit started?
That's why the skit was made!
I pushed play and saw them both sitting around...
You mean the snarky little "women dream" intro.
Men don't treat each other like that. They would give rides to the restaurant and they would loan money or cover their bud if they forgot their wallet. (at least the men I know)
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:06:46
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:05:05
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:04:00
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Yeah, watched it too...how does this show equality? It shows the guy to be a jerk and the girl to be a buffoon for going along with it.
She shoulda called some friends and had a FUN time instead of being with someone so rude. Even friends show each other more consideration and offer rides etc. ::frown::
rofl
Did you pay attention to the first few seconds of the video before the skit started?
That's why the skit was made!
I pushed play and saw them both sitting around...
"Women dream of a world of true equality between men and women . . . this is a date from such a world."
: Man_Of_Honor Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 09:52:04You do need to take abuse of any sorts from anyone.
Is there supposed to be a "not" in there somewhere???
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:06:46
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:05:05
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:04:00
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Yeah, watched it too...how does this show equality? It shows the guy to be a jerk and the girl to be a buffoon for going along with it.
She shoulda called some friends and had a FUN time instead of being with someone so rude. Even friends show each other more consideration and offer rides etc. ::frown::
rofl
Did you pay attention to the first few seconds of the video before the skit started?
That's why the skit was made!
I pushed play and saw them both sitting around...
You mean the snarky little "women dream" intro.
Men don't treat each other like that. They would give rides to the restaurant and they would loan money or cover their bud if they forgot their wallet. (at least the men I know)
Likewise. I don't know any men who treat each other or women like that.
That's why the story is hypothetical. Women are largely asking for equality but they're still going to expect the man to "be a man" and endure such things when it suits her.
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:14:53
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:06:46
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:05:05
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:04:00
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Yeah, watched it too...how does this show equality? It shows the guy to be a jerk and the girl to be a buffoon for going along with it.
She shoulda called some friends and had a FUN time instead of being with someone so rude. Even friends show each other more consideration and offer rides etc. ::frown::
rofl
Did you pay attention to the first few seconds of the video before the skit started?
That's why the skit was made!
I pushed play and saw them both sitting around...
You mean the snarky little "women dream" intro.
Men don't treat each other like that. They would give rides to the restaurant and they would loan money or cover their bud if they forgot their wallet. (at least the men I know)
Likewise. I don't know any men who treat each other or women like that.
That's why the story is hypothetical. Women are largely asking for equality but they're still going to expect the man to "be a man" and endure such things when it suits her.
Who CARES what an obviously unbalanced
person (note, not entire gender group) expects? If a person thinks treating a human being like that is right, they clearly have issues and the dust from that encounter should be shaken from the feet of the young man.
Equality means seeing another person or gender group in the same view of respect that you hold for yourself or your gender group.
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:05:51Who expects girls to treat boys like this???
As a mom of sons, this would OUTRAGE me to have my precious boys treated like this..and if they thought they should tolerate this rudeness, I will have failed miserably!
People should treat one another with kindness, consideration and just plain good manners!
In an ideal world sure.
But we live in a fallen world. If a young woman had treated my son so rudely, I would extpect him to be a perfect gentleman and take it all with a smile and a kind word.
IOW - Be a man about it.
: DaveW Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:20:09
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:05:51Who expects girls to treat boys like this???
As a mom of sons, this would OUTRAGE me to have my precious boys treated like this..and if they thought they should tolerate this rudeness, I will have failed miserably!
People should treat one another with kindness, consideration and just plain good manners!
In an ideal world sure.
But we live in a fallen world. If a young woman had treated my son so rudely, I would extpect him to be a perfect gentleman and take it all with a smile and a kind word.
IOW - Be a man about it.
Yeah, be kind, BUT do not go back for more!!!
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:18:53
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:14:53
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:06:46
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:05:05
: MeMyself Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:04:00
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:00:36
Wow, saw the video. What a creep he is!
Yeah, watched it too...how does this show equality? It shows the guy to be a jerk and the girl to be a buffoon for going along with it.
She shoulda called some friends and had a FUN time instead of being with someone so rude. Even friends show each other more consideration and offer rides etc. ::frown::
rofl
Did you pay attention to the first few seconds of the video before the skit started?
That's why the skit was made!
I pushed play and saw them both sitting around...
You mean the snarky little "women dream" intro.
Men don't treat each other like that. They would give rides to the restaurant and they would loan money or cover their bud if they forgot their wallet. (at least the men I know)
Likewise. I don't know any men who treat each other or women like that.
That's why the story is hypothetical. Women are largely asking for equality but they're still going to expect the man to "be a man" and endure such things when it suits her.
Who CARES what an obviously unbalanced person (note, not entire gender group) expects? If a person thinks treating a human being like that is right, they clearly have issues and the dust from that encounter should be shaken from the feet of the young man.
Equality means seeing another person or gender group in the same view of respect that you hold for yourself or your gender group.
And as it happens, for men to hold respect for themselves or for their gender group is a no-no.
Unfortunately, DaveW's sort of "be a man" attitude is partly to blame. That is, I suspect that lots of women are really decent people who simply aren't aware of men's humanity because it's taboo for a man to express it.
That is, if a man is treated like that, it's hurtful. It's hurtful just like if/when a female is treated like that.
Men of our generation have those shackles to break free from and recognise ourselves as human beings, not disposable objects meant to worship women.
Wow. That video was VERY appalling to me. Along with that, I don't know where you live or what females you have come in contact with. I have NEVER seen or come in contact, in a romantic sense, with a female ANYWHERE close to how the male was acting, nor have I taken on that "man's" role in that video. Sure, I've dated my fair share of immature females that did not deserve my time, but NOWHERE close to that video. I'm still confused as to how this is helping your argument/case. If the message is equality, I fail to notice it in any way, shape, or form.
: wolflet7 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:51:08
Wow. That video was VERY appalling to me. Along with that, I don't know where you live or what females you have come in contact with. I have NEVER seen or come in contact, in a romantic sense, with a female ANYWHERE close to how the male was acting, nor have I taken on that "man's" role in that video. Sure, I've dated my fair share of immature females that did not deserve my time, but NOWHERE close to that video. I'm still confused as to how this is helping your argument/case. If the message is equality, I fail to notice it in any way, shape, or form.
::smile::
: wolflet7 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:51:08
Wow. That video was VERY appalling to me. Along with that, I don't know where you live or what females you have come in contact with. I have NEVER seen or come in contact, in a romantic sense, with a female ANYWHERE close to how the male was acting, nor have I taken on that "man's" role in that video. Sure, I've dated my fair share of immature females that did not deserve my time, but NOWHERE close to that video. I'm still confused as to how this is helping your argument/case. If the message is equality, I fail to notice it in any way, shape, or form.
I think it's way exaggerated, definitely.
Depends on who you ask, though.
I want to emphasize DaveW's comment again, however. Because that tends to be what keeps the word from spreading--lots of guys trained to "take it."
: Cally Thu May 31, 2012 - 23:03:35
: Kindle Thu May 31, 2012 - 18:24:10
Cally,
PM the link to me if you like. Or show it here for others to see as well. Al life is precious, and war is .. ::frown::
I'd hesitate to put it up here because it's a long video and I'm not sure if I remember it being totally free of possibly objectionable content (you know how YouTube is).
But the vlogger's name is "girlwriteswhat." (you can check that out on YouTube) She writes ferociously anti-feminist work and does a pretty good job of doing it in an even-handed fashion. I haven't had time to see too many of her videos, but what I've seen is solid common sense.
Hi Cally,
I watched both videos..so will post my comments here. They were definitely worth watching. For others who are interested in checking out this vlogger, get ready to deal with the "F" bombs, but you will indeed see a different common sense perspective, IMO.
The one on feminists.. I will still argue that most women who would argue for feminism are really arguing for humanism. (There will be narcissists however.) But here, that term will also get us into trouble.. as it is commonly understood. "Ism" always carries a load of garbage along with what is respectable in terms of truths..
The one on male disposability was right on, in it's main message. It's an aspect, I think, that many or most feeling people already perceive; but often suppress.It's a
very big knot to untangle. It sure does challenge the status-quo.
I could keep on writing for a good while.. agreements and arguments. But I think the thread is already complicated enough? ::whistle::
: Kindle Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:04:24
: Cally Thu May 31, 2012 - 23:03:35
: Kindle Thu May 31, 2012 - 18:24:10
Cally,
PM the link to me if you like. Or show it here for others to see as well. Al life is precious, and war is .. ::frown::
I'd hesitate to put it up here because it's a long video and I'm not sure if I remember it being totally free of possibly objectionable content (you know how YouTube is).
But the vlogger's name is "girlwriteswhat." (you can check that out on YouTube) She writes ferociously anti-feminist work and does a pretty good job of doing it in an even-handed fashion. I haven't had time to see too many of her videos, but what I've seen is solid common sense.
Hi Cally,
I watched both videos..so will post my comments here. They were definitely worth watching. For others who are interested in checking out this vlogger, get ready to deal with the "F" bombs, but you will indeed see a different common sense perspective, IMO.
The one on feminists.. I will still argue that most women who would argue for feminism are really arguing for humanism. (There will be narcissists however.) But here, that term will also get us into trouble.. as it is commonly understood. "Ism" always carries a load of garbage along with what is respectable in terms of truths..
The one on male disposability was right on, in it's main message. It's an aspect, I think, that many or most feeling people already perceive; but often suppress.It's a very big knot to untangle. It sure does challenge the status-quo.
I could keep on writing for a good while.. agreements and arguments. But I think the thread is already complicated enough? ::whistle::
Well kindle I've never seen a feminist point out the smack-in-the-face obvious problems that men have to deal with--in such ways that they are not treated as "equals."
Does the funding for prostate cancer come anywhere close to funding for breast cancer?
I could seriously be here all day listing such things that says: the modern world hates men. It still wants to put all the responsibilities on their backs to get them to put out except all of a sudden asking women for anything is a no-no in return and women who have been receiving benefits from men fulfilling their roles suddenly decide they've been oppressed for the whole of human history.
Yes, those statements apply to absolutely all feminists to my knowledge. And frankly, the number of women who demonstrate that they've figured this out is still in the minority, albeit in growing numbers.
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:02:09
: wolflet7 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:51:08
Wow. That video was VERY appalling to me. Along with that, I don't know where you live or what females you have come in contact with. I have NEVER seen or come in contact, in a romantic sense, with a female ANYWHERE close to how the male was acting, nor have I taken on that "man's" role in that video. Sure, I've dated my fair share of immature females that did not deserve my time, but NOWHERE close to that video. I'm still confused as to how this is helping your argument/case. If the message is equality, I fail to notice it in any way, shape, or form.
I think it's way exaggerated, definitely.
Depends on who you ask, though.
I want to emphasize DaveW's comment again, however. Because that tends to be what keeps the word from spreading--lots of guys trained to "take it."
DaveW is well known for spewing nonsense. I would take what he says with a pinch of salt. From doing critical thinking, I'm actually starting to believe that "female oppression for thousands of years" is yet another big myth that is plaguing our society, just like the myth of Evolution.
: ObeyTheGospel Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:15:30
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:02:09
: wolflet7 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:51:08
Wow. That video was VERY appalling to me. Along with that, I don't know where you live or what females you have come in contact with. I have NEVER seen or come in contact, in a romantic sense, with a female ANYWHERE close to how the male was acting, nor have I taken on that "man's" role in that video. Sure, I've dated my fair share of immature females that did not deserve my time, but NOWHERE close to that video. I'm still confused as to how this is helping your argument/case. If the message is equality, I fail to notice it in any way, shape, or form.
I think it's way exaggerated, definitely.
Depends on who you ask, though.
I want to emphasize DaveW's comment again, however. Because that tends to be what keeps the word from spreading--lots of guys trained to "take it."
DaveW is well known for spewing nonsense. I would take what he says with a pinch of salt. From doing critical thinking, I'm actually starting to believe that "female oppression for thousands of years" is yet another big myth that is plaguing our society, just like the myth of Evolution.
It's misleading: women were/are oppressed, except many people want to express that in such a way that suggests that men have it easy street.
Yes, I'll have sympathy for the individual.
Sorry, claiming that the male gender has it handed to them on a platter is a slap in the face to men who have died doing back-breaking labor for women and fought in wars and endured all other sorts of hardships for them.
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:17:53
Sorry, claiming that the male gender has it handed to them on a platter is a slap in the face to men who have died doing back-breaking labor for women and fought in wars and endured all other sorts of hardships for them.
Are you saying that I am saying men have it easy? I certanly do not believe that at all.
I am saying that just as Our Lord suffered hostility and did not open his mouth (Isa 53) so should we.
: ObeyTheGospel Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:15:30
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:02:09
: wolflet7 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:51:08
Wow. That video was VERY appalling to me. Along with that, I don't know where you live or what females you have come in contact with. I have NEVER seen or come in contact, in a romantic sense, with a female ANYWHERE close to how the male was acting, nor have I taken on that "man's" role in that video. Sure, I've dated my fair share of immature females that did not deserve my time, but NOWHERE close to that video. I'm still confused as to how this is helping your argument/case. If the message is equality, I fail to notice it in any way, shape, or form.
I think it's way exaggerated, definitely.
Depends on who you ask, though.
I want to emphasize DaveW's comment again, however. Because that tends to be what keeps the word from spreading--lots of guys trained to "take it."
DaveW is well known for spewing nonsense. I would take what he says with a pinch of salt. From doing critical thinking, I'm actually starting to believe that "female oppression for thousands of years" is yet another big myth that is plaguing our society, just like the myth of Evolution.
Actually Dave usually says some very good, helpful and sensible things, so watch what you say here.
: ObeyTheGospel Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:15:30DaveW is well known for spewing nonsense. I would take what he says with a pinch of salt. From doing critical thinking, I'm actually starting to believe that "female oppression for thousands of years" is yet another big myth that is plaguing our society, just like the myth of Evolution.
Really...well known? (I disagree)
One thing I have learned over the years...the one that is claiming he knows it all; this man/woman is deceived...I will just leave it at that.
Must admit Dave, that despite the awful way that my husbands ex treated him, he did act with integrity, fairness and decency throughout, so I can see where you are coming from. At no time did he attempt to hit back(verbally),do what she did(cheat), or stoop to her level in any way. I am proud of him for that, and God has blessed him for it. He believes that God is His vindicator. However I dont think that any man or woman should have to put up with physical violence, adultery or similar without doing something about it.
: chosenone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:24:54
: ObeyTheGospel Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:15:30
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:02:09
: wolflet7 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:51:08
Wow. That video was VERY appalling to me. Along with that, I don't know where you live or what females you have come in contact with. I have NEVER seen or come in contact, in a romantic sense, with a female ANYWHERE close to how the male was acting, nor have I taken on that "man's" role in that video. Sure, I've dated my fair share of immature females that did not deserve my time, but NOWHERE close to that video. I'm still confused as to how this is helping your argument/case. If the message is equality, I fail to notice it in any way, shape, or form.
I think it's way exaggerated, definitely.
Depends on who you ask, though.
I want to emphasize DaveW's comment again, however. Because that tends to be what keeps the word from spreading--lots of guys trained to "take it."
DaveW is well known for spewing nonsense. I would take what he says with a pinch of salt. From doing critical thinking, I'm actually starting to believe that "female oppression for thousands of years" is yet another big myth that is plaguing our society, just like the myth of Evolution.
Actually Dave usually says some very good, helpful and sensible things, so watch what you say here.
I beg to differ, but thank you for giving your opinion.
: chosenone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:30:18
Must admit Dave, that despite the awful way that my husbands ex treated him, he did act with integrity, fairness and decency throughout, so I can see where you are coming from. At no time did he attempt to hit back(verbally),do what she did(cheat), or stoop to her level in any way. I am proud of him for that, and God has blessed him for it. He believes that God is His vindicator. However I dont think that any man or woman should have to put up with physical violence, adultery or similar without doing something about it.
I agree with that. Well said.
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:13:04
: Kindle Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:04:24
: Cally Thu May 31, 2012 - 23:03:35
: Kindle Thu May 31, 2012 - 18:24:10
Cally,
PM the link to me if you like. Or show it here for others to see as well. Al life is precious, and war is .. ::frown::
I'd hesitate to put it up here because it's a long video and I'm not sure if I remember it being totally free of possibly objectionable content (you know how YouTube is).
But the vlogger's name is "girlwriteswhat." (you can check that out on YouTube) She writes ferociously anti-feminist work and does a pretty good job of doing it in an even-handed fashion. I haven't had time to see too many of her videos, but what I've seen is solid common sense.
Hi Cally,
I watched both videos..so will post my comments here. They were definitely worth watching. For others who are interested in checking out this vlogger, get ready to deal with the "F" bombs, but you will indeed see a different common sense perspective, IMO.
The one on feminists.. I will still argue that most women who would argue for feminism are really arguing for humanism. (There will be narcissists however.) But here, that term will also get us into trouble.. as it is commonly understood. "Ism" always carries a load of garbage along with what is respectable in terms of truths..
The one on male disposability was right on, in it's main message. It's an aspect, I think, that many or most feeling people already perceive; but often suppress.It's a very big knot to untangle. It sure does challenge the status-quo.
I could keep on writing for a good while.. agreements and arguments. But I think the thread is already complicated enough? ::whistle::
Well kindle I've never seen a feminist point out the smack-in-the-face obvious problems that men have to deal with--in such ways that they are not treated as "equals."
Does the funding for prostate cancer come anywhere close to funding for breast cancer?
I could seriously be here all day listing such things that says: the modern world hates men. It still wants to put all the responsibilities on their backs to get them to put out except all of a sudden asking women for anything is a no-no in return and women who have been receiving benefits from men fulfilling their roles suddenly decide they've been oppressed for the whole of human history.
Yes, those statements apply to absolutely all feminists to my knowledge. And frankly, the number of women who demonstrate that they've figured this out is still in the minority, albeit in growing numbers.
Cally, I must make this a quicker response than I would like for now..
I think it is the fact that men are indeed so crucial in the roles they play for human survival that is the cause of our dragging our feet in this area. Maybe? Until human beings all get together and stop making so much catastrophic troubles for ourselves.. wars and conflicts especially.. it will be a damage done. I have a son, myself. We've done our best to teach him that the value in his being, not in his doing. I'll fight for and with him as long as I can.
If I had had a daughter instead, I would be as staunch a defender of her as well. But ya.. I'll fight for my son. ::smile::
Must go for now..
Kindle
: DaveW Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:22:48
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 13:17:53
Sorry, claiming that the male gender has it handed to them on a platter is a slap in the face to men who have died doing back-breaking labor for women and fought in wars and endured all other sorts of hardships for them.
Are you saying that I am saying men have it easy? I certanly do not believe that at all.
I am saying that just as Our Lord suffered hostility and did not open his mouth (Isa 53) so should we.
I remember Jesus suggesting that people were doing evil for trying to stone him. (John 10:22-39)
Letting women (or anyone) make you suffer without even trying to make them aware that they are causing you harm causes everybody to lose. Frankly, what kind of arrogance does it take to think that you can really endure ANY sort of abuse a woman puts out and still be able to work just as productively for your sake AND hers?
Cally---why arrogance? It is stupidity to put up with abuse from anyone.
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 16:59:07
Cally---why arrogance? It is stupidity to put up with abuse from anyone.
Arrogance to suggest that it's impossible for someone to hurt you because she's female.
Isn't that the ultimate arrogant male machismo at work?
: Cally Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 17:00:11
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 16:59:07
Cally---why arrogance? It is stupidity to put up with abuse from anyone.
Arrogance to suggest that it's impossible for someone to hurt you because she's female.
Isn't that the ultimate arrogant male machismo at work?
I see!
I think the best thing for men to do is remain single and focus on having a relationship with God and doing His will. When God's kingdom comes justice will be done. Until then there is always going to be conflict between people.
: ObeyTheGospel Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 17:22:30
I think the best thing for men to do is remain single and focus on having a relationship with God and doing His will. When God's kingdom comes justice will be done. Until then there is always going to be conflict between people.
::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
12 pages wrapped up into one post!
: DaveW Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 12:09:05
: Man_Of_Honor Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 09:52:04You do need to take abuse of any sorts from anyone.
Is there supposed to be a "not" in there somewhere???
Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. My apologies.
: ObeyTheGospel Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 17:22:30
I think the best thing for men to do is remain single and focus on having a relationship with God and doing His will. When God's kingdom comes justice will be done. Until then there is always going to be conflict between people.
And how does one do that and proplerly obey the command to "be fruitful and multiply?"
::eatingpopcorn:
I think wolflet hit the bullseye. ::smile::
: Kindle Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 12:56:38
I think wolflet hit the bullseye. ::smile::
I do what I can ::blushing::
: wolflet7 Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 13:24:08
: Kindle Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 12:56:38
I think wolflet hit the bullseye. ::smile::
I do what I can ::blushing::
rofl ::smile::
We haven't been following the bible. Let's return to the old path, spit out the culture that takes us off the narrow way. 1 Timothy 2:12 is still in God's Word.
: Taherd Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 13:56:38
We haven't been following the bible. Let's return to the old path, spit out the culture that takes us off the narrow way. 1 Timothy 2:12 is still in God's Word.
And 1 Timothy 2:12 is still the good old boy's verse that is completely misunderstood. It's time culture got it right.
: Lively Stone Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 14:07:15
: Taherd Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 13:56:38
We haven't been following the bible. Let's return to the old path, spit out the culture that takes us off the narrow way. 1 Timothy 2:12 is still in God's Word.
And 1 Timothy 2:12 is still the good old boy's verse that is completely misunderstood. It's time culture got it right.
So men do not want to be taught by women or have them in authority positions over them.
No matter how you slice it, you can't make a man acknowledge a woman's authority or allow her to teach him if he doesn't feel like it's in his interests.
And interestingly, that's something I've scarcely heard people try to disprove: that it's actually in a man's own interests to allow a woman to be his teacher and/or authority figure. The overwhelming emphasis of the discussion is about people's alleged attitudes of women being inferior.
At the end of the day, you simply cannot force people to be underneath the authority or teaching by someone they do not want. It's almost a non-issue in that regard. Men who do not believe in female priests and the like will just get up and leave. Hey, if somebody doesn't want ME (a man) to be a teacher or authority figure when I want, what am I going to do? Glue everyone to their seats and make them listen and show respect? It's their choice.
: Cally Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 17:24:43
: Lively Stone Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 14:07:15
: Taherd Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 13:56:38
We haven't been following the bible. Let's return to the old path, spit out the culture that takes us off the narrow way. 1 Timothy 2:12 is still in God's Word.
And 1 Timothy 2:12 is still the good old boy's verse that is completely misunderstood. It's time culture got it right.
So men do not want to be taught by women or have them in authority positions over them.
No matter how you slice it, you can't make a man acknowledge a woman's authority or allow her to teach him if he doesn't feel like it's in his interests.
And interestingly, that's something I've scarcely heard people try to disprove: that it's actually in a man's own interests to allow a woman to be his teacher and/or authority figure. The overwhelming emphasis of the discussion is about people's alleged attitudes of women being inferior.
At the end of the day, you simply cannot force people to be underneath the authority or teaching by someone they do not want. It's almost a non-issue in that regard. Men who do not believe in female priests and the like will just get up and leave. Hey, if somebody doesn't want ME (a man) to be a teacher or authority figure when I want, what am I going to do? Glue everyone to their seats and make them listen and show respect? It's their choice.
I honestly think this is why God says not to...to protect women from men who close their ears simply because its a woman speaking.
: MeMyself Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 18:03:50
: Cally Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 17:24:43
: Lively Stone Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 14:07:15
: Taherd Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 13:56:38
We haven't been following the bible. Let's return to the old path, spit out the culture that takes us off the narrow way. 1 Timothy 2:12 is still in God's Word.
And 1 Timothy 2:12 is still the good old boy's verse that is completely misunderstood. It's time culture got it right.
So men do not want to be taught by women or have them in authority positions over them.
No matter how you slice it, you can't make a man acknowledge a woman's authority or allow her to teach him if he doesn't feel like it's in his interests.
And interestingly, that's something I've scarcely heard people try to disprove: that it's actually in a man's own interests to allow a woman to be his teacher and/or authority figure. The overwhelming emphasis of the discussion is about people's alleged attitudes of women being inferior.
At the end of the day, you simply cannot force people to be underneath the authority or teaching by someone they do not want. It's almost a non-issue in that regard. Men who do not believe in female priests and the like will just get up and leave. Hey, if somebody doesn't want ME (a man) to be a teacher or authority figure when I want, what am I going to do? Glue everyone to their seats and make them listen and show respect? It's their choice.
I honestly think this is why God says not to...to protect women from men who close their ears simply because its a woman speaking.
God's little secret that he never mentioned in scripture, that men were actually oppressing women all throughout human history, right? ::lookaround::
Actually I listen to women but if I can possibly help it, I don't acknowledge her as an appointed leader. And like I said, I'm entitled to having that choice, just like it's anyone's choice to decide who or who not to follow. Nobody is required to indulge me if I want to be a speaker/leader/teacher and likewise I don't have to indulge others if I don't want.
: Cally Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 18:17:28
God's little secret that he never mentioned in scripture, that men were actually oppressing women all throughout human history, right? ::lookaround::
Actually I listen to women but if I can possibly help it, I don't acknowledge her as an appointed leader. And like I said, I'm entitled to having that choice, just like it's anyone's choice to decide who or who not to follow. Nobody is required to indulge me if I want to be a speaker/leader/teacher and likewise I don't have to indulge others if I don't want.
The Bible didn't mention that I had a protein shake for breakfast this morning. I guess that means it didn't happen, right? The fact is that in the past, women had been kept from being allowed to work, being allowed to have much of any say in society, from being allowed to think freely and to be allowed to use that to freely invent things like so many men had in the past. They were not allowed to vote, and there are a lot of other things they were not allowed to do. They were treated quite literally like property. Are you going to deny the oppression that women STILL face in the Middle East, under Shariah Law? I hope not, because that would be hugely ignorant. And it doesn't matter if Shariah Law is Islamic and not Christian. It's still oppression of women.
And consider this, because the Bible does somewhat touch on the oppression of women in history. If you really ask yourself "What Would Jesus Do?", Jesus in the Bible treated women with RESPECT, as EQUALS, and in a way that women were not treated back then under the laws that were in place, which WERE oppressive to women. Jesus went against those sexist laws by talking to a woman who was alone, which wasn't allowed back then. She was not allowed to engage in conversation with a stranger if she was alone. And in another situation, he saved a woman who was about to be stoned to death for committing adultery, while the male who was equally to blame (it takes two to commit adultery, after all) was not even brought in by the pharisees for punishment (and under Shariah Law, women can be raped, and then killed for it as punishment somehow, which is completely wrong and immaturely irresponsible on the man's part, not to mention completely idiotic and unGodly). Such treatment you condone would not be in his agreement at all. Did Jesus treat women that way? Certainly not.
Women are perfectly capable of teaching. It only relies on one's people skills and one's knowledge of a subject, both of which are strictly cerebral. The real idiotic thing here is thinking that one's genitalia determines how well one teaches. I've seen and had more female teachers than male, and they all did a bang-up job of teaching me and helping me whenever I needed it. Yes, it is possible for a woman to possess the same, or greater, knowledge and understanding of a subject as a man. *gasp!*
And actually I've found that women tend to have better people skills than men through the practice of simple observation.
And you're right, just like it's my choice not to have any respect for what you have to say. I'm a guy, btw. I respect human beings for who they are. This includes both men and women. I see no reason to see either as better than the other. If we're talking about physical strength, then clearly men as a whole are superior, but strength isn't the only thing that matters. When one speaks of what's better or worse, they usually mean OVERALL, and that's what I mean. I see no reason to see either better than the other, other than bigotry.
: ExtraOrdinary Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 19:29:44
: Cally Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 18:17:28
God's little secret that he never mentioned in scripture, that men were actually oppressing women all throughout human history, right? ::lookaround::
Actually I listen to women but if I can possibly help it, I don't acknowledge her as an appointed leader. And like I said, I'm entitled to having that choice, just like it's anyone's choice to decide who or who not to follow. Nobody is required to indulge me if I want to be a speaker/leader/teacher and likewise I don't have to indulge others if I don't want.
The Bible didn't mention that I had a protein shake for breakfast this morning. I guess that means it didn't happen, right?
Your whole post is a big "been there, done that" but for the moment, I'll just point out this comment that reflects that you'll probably be stubborn in discussion.
God got after Israel for failing to tithe, divorces, problems with sacrifices, and practically every other sort of issue that you can imagine on the occasion that it happened. But not a single mention of an alleged problem supposedly happening ALL THE TIME?
Ridiculous. God was passing judgment on mankind left and right, calling some good and some evil, and never once does this issue come up. Your protein shake isn't a moral issue, and like I say, your total lack of cooperation to recognize the point of what I said is enough to show that talking Bible may not be fruitful to someone who loves worldly standards rather than Biblical.
: ExtraOrdinary Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 19:29:44
: Cally Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 18:17:28
God's little secret that he never mentioned in scripture, that men were actually oppressing women all throughout human history, right? ::lookaround::
Actually I listen to women but if I can possibly help it, I don't acknowledge her as an appointed leader. And like I said, I'm entitled to having that choice, just like it's anyone's choice to decide who or who not to follow. Nobody is required to indulge me if I want to be a speaker/leader/teacher and likewise I don't have to indulge others if I don't want.
The Bible didn't mention that I had a protein shake for breakfast this morning. I guess that means it didn't happen, right? The fact is that in the past, women had been kept from being allowed to work, being allowed to have much of any say in society, from being allowed to think freely and to be allowed to use that to freely invent things like so many men had in the past. They were not allowed to vote, and there are a lot of other things they were not allowed to do. They were treated quite literally like property. Are you going to deny the oppression that women STILL face in the Middle East, under Shariah Law? I hope not, because that would be hugely ignorant. And it doesn't matter if Shariah Law is Islamic and not Christian. It's still oppression of women.
And consider this, because the Bible does somewhat touch on the oppression of women in history. If you really ask yourself "What Would Jesus Do?", Jesus in the Bible treated women with RESPECT, as EQUALS, and in a way that women were not treated back then under the laws that were in place, which WERE oppressive to women. Jesus went against those sexist laws by talking to a woman who was alone, which wasn't allowed back then. She was not allowed to engage in conversation with a stranger if she was alone. And in another situation, he saved a woman who was about to be stoned to death for committing adultery, while the male who was equally to blame (it takes two to commit adultery, after all) was not even brought in by the pharisees for punishment (and under Shariah Law, women can be raped, and then killed for it as punishment somehow, which is completely wrong and immaturely irresponsible on the man's part, not to mention completely idiotic and unGodly). Such treatment you condone would not be in his agreement at all. Did Jesus treat women that way? Certainly not.
Women are perfectly capable of teaching. It only relies on one's people skills and one's knowledge of a subject, both of which are strictly cerebral. The real idiotic thing here is thinking that one's genitalia determines how well one teaches. I've seen and had more female teachers than male, and they all did a bang-up job of teaching me and helping me whenever I needed it. Yes, it is possible for a woman to possess the same, or greater, knowledge and understanding of a subject as a man. *gasp!*
And actually I've found that women tend to have better people skills than men through the practice of simple observation.
And you're right, just like it's my choice not to have any respect for what you have to say. I'm a guy, btw. I respect human beings for who they are. This includes both men and women. I see no reason to see either as better than the other. If we're talking about physical strength, then clearly men as a whole are superior, but strength isn't the only thing that matters. When one speaks of what's better or worse, they usually mean OVERALL, and that's what I mean. I see no reason to see either better than the other, other than bigotry.
Wow, ExtraOrdinary - You knocked my bonnet in the creek with that post! I thought it was a woman posting and then you said, "I'm a guy, btw." No, sir, you are not a guy, you are a man ---- a gentleman. Highest regards and a deep bow to you. ::smile::
: Cally Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 20:01:54Your whole post is a big "been there, done that" but for the moment, I'll just point out this comment that reflects that you'll probably be stubborn in discussion.
God got after Israel for failing to tithe, divorces, problems with sacrifices, and practically every other sort of issue that you can imagine on the occasion that it happened. But not a single mention of an alleged problem supposedly happening ALL THE TIME?
Ridiculous. God was passing judgment on mankind left and right, calling some good and some evil, and never once does this issue come up. Your protein shake isn't a moral issue, and like I say, your total lack of cooperation to recognize the point of what I said is enough to show that talking Bible may not be fruitful to someone who loves worldly standards rather than Biblical.
So is the oppression of women. You're not about to deny the oppression that women face even today in other countries. You are not about to. You may be about to TRY to deny it, but the fact remains that it's just a bunch of malarkey. People can see the oppression of women under Shariah Law and in other parts of the world. They see the news and the things that goes on, especially how women who are raped are then put to death because they are blamed for being raped.
And the oppression of women in the US up until recently is also no secret. Do not pretend to be ignorant to it.
And, I guess you're going to say that because God didn't get into Israel for it, that he's ok with women being raped, and then killed for it, because that's what is, and has been, happening to women. Maybe it's because it wasn't happening in Israel, and that other parts of the world do exist. Also, maybe it's because God expects us to realize what is right and what is wrong. Where has he EVER condoned rape?
If you do some actual historic studying and look-back into old and ancient times, you'll find a lot of laws to be discriminatory, and therefore oppressive, toward women.
Also, you COMPLETELY ignored this snippit I posted, which WAS talking Bible, showing that you really didn't read my post before responding, something I will also be doing with you, however I will also not bother responding anymore either. This is what you missed:
"And consider this, because the Bible does somewhat touch on the oppression of women in history. If you really ask yourself "What Would Jesus Do?", Jesus in the Bible treated women with RESPECT, as EQUALS, and in a way that women were not treated back then under the laws that were in place, which WERE oppressive to women. Jesus went against those sexist laws by talking to a woman who was alone, which wasn't allowed back then. She was not allowed to engage in conversation with a stranger if she was alone. And in another situation, he saved a woman who was about to be stoned to death for committing adultery, while the male who was equally to blame (it takes two to commit adultery, after all) was not even brought in by the pharisees for punishment (and under Shariah Law, women can be raped, and then killed for it as punishment somehow, which is completely wrong and immaturely irresponsible on the man's part, not to mention completely idiotic and unGodly). Such treatment you condone would not be in his agreement at all. Did Jesus treat women that way? Certainly not."
However, you are not talking Bible at all. Jesus certainly did go after the oppression of women back then, by opposing those very laws that oppressed them, and he treated them like EQUALS. This was a serious thing back then, and even the disciples kinda backed away because it was unlawful for a woman to speak with a stranger when she was alone, which is sexist. It's not a non-discriminating law at all.
And there countless travesties which have and still occur today. The Bible does not cover all of them specifically. Does that make them okay? I'm pretty sure God gave us the ability to use common sense and discernment for a reason.
Don't you dare point fingers at me. I made my Biblical point, a much more valid one than the ridiculous point you tried to make. Jesus' actions in the Bible, which I mentioned, set standards that you're not following. It's you who does not follow the standards. How dare you treat any human as less for something as insignificant as gender, when Jesus did NOT. Jesus lead by example, which clearly you are not following in this instance.
Like I said, I'm also free to choose not to respect what you have to say. This utter hypocrisy just further solidifies that stance.
And your stance against women teachers sort of (more like definitely) opposes God, who has appointed women apostles (AKA
TEACHERS). Junia (http://godswordtowomen.org/juniapreato.htm) was one of them, and Debrorah was a JUDGE in Israel. And let's not forget Phillip, whose 4 virgin daughters were all prophetesses (prophet meaning teacher, and prophetess being a FEMALE prophet). And the book of Acts and the book of Joel both say that both sons AND DAUGHTERS shall prophecy. There was also Priscilla, whom Paul had a pet name for, due to being close to her. She and her husband ran Bible studies in their church (their home), and she was the leader of this get-together. Even Paul acknowledged it, and he would address her FIRST when writing to her and her husband. I could go on. Don't you dare point and say I'M the one not following Biblical principles.
: Lavender Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 20:32:25Wow, ExtraOrdinary - You knocked my bonnet in the creek with that post! I thought it was a woman posting and then you said, "I'm a guy, btw." No, sir, you are not a guy, you are a man ---- a gentleman. Highest regards and a deep bow to you. ::smile::
Thank you. I care nothing for the opinions of people who would put other people down under such bigoted pretenses, which Jesus certainly did not do. There are plenty of women I know who are smarter than me, better than me at different things (such as video games, cooking, driving, problem solving, comforting, and any little thing you could think of), stronger than me, etc.. I simply can't fathom the logic behind believing that my gender makes me superior to people who can outclass me in many different areas. People who are truly superior than others in something do so by their own merit, and not by something as trivial as gender (or race, etc.).
This person I replied to also seems to be completely oblivious to the suffering women face in the Middle East, with Shariah Law. I see that the US is slowly trying to adopt this law as the standard and I pray it doesn't. It's bad enough in the Middle East, but I don't want to see women (and Christians) suffer from this insidious law because for some reason it's being pushed in the US. I can't fathom how Cally seems to somehow be oblivious to that suffering and oppression going on overseas to be denying any oppression completely.
I hope no one ever tries to treat you like a lesser being for your gender (I'm gonna assume you're a girl because of the name, sorry if I'm wrong XD). God equally created the entire human race in, and He said that it was good. ALL of it.
Also don't let people use the story of Adam and Eve to put women down because Adam was formed first. Adam ("eth ha adam" in Hebrew meaning "THE man") was formed in Genesis 2:7, on the 8th day which was AFTER God rested. Man ("adam" in Hebrew meaning "mankind) was made in Genesis 1:26, on the 6th day, before He rested. Two different events. We were all created equal. God meant that, and no one should try to convince you otherwise for the purpose of putting you down.
And heck, in Genesis 1:27-28, before Adam came into the picture, it says God created BOTH male and female, blessed them BOTH, and gave them BOTH dominion over the earth. Some say that Genesis 2 is a recap of Genesis 1, but while the word "adam" and "eth ha adam" used have vastly different meanings in and of themselves, also the order of creation in Genesis 2 is different than in Genesis 1, showing that it's not the same creation. On the 6th day, both male and female were created equally. There is no doubt about that.
Anyway, I'm running my mouth off a bit. My mom would like to joke about the meaning of my name (Justin) in instances like this. Idk, I just know I get really passionate when I see such unfairness and hypocrisy. When it makes someone's day, it makes it all worth it. So thank you again. Even if it's just you, you've made it worth saying what I said.
I really appreciate it! ::smile::
"ExtraOrdinary"
Accusations that do not have any scripture to support them make me sleepy. ::sleepingsoundly::
There are plenty out there. Another we hear a lot is how bigoted and hateful it is to condemn the practice of homosexuality. I'm ready for things like that--things like this are entering the church and I drew a very firm line that I won't let be crossed
As we can see with Lavender, many women will respond to flattery and surround themselves with what their itching ears want to hear.
Face it: nobody is charged with sexism according to modern American standards by God. It never happened in scripture (many, many men of God were commended without a recorded need for being rebuked for it), there's no reason that someone will be in hot water with God for it, whereas many today are looking for reasons to disregard scriptures speaking directly to females (about male/female differences).
In fact, •Isaiah◦3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. My people, those who lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.
We can even see an instance of God complaining about women ruling over men. But this dreaded bad, terrible thing that happened all throughout human history until the allegedly enlightened modern United States came along? Not even a single word.
I've said it earlier in this thread which I kind of doubt you read, but my issue with the "oppression of women" is this: You can come up with all kinds of stories about attrocities committed against women and for the most part I believe they deserve sympathy as individual cases.
HOWEVER, when it is loaded with the insinuation that men, by comparison, have it on easy street; as if men are hardly ever done wrong by women or only to a negligible extent; then you've deceptively introduced a fallacy into the discussion.
Women are wronged by men. Men are wronged by women. God's not okay with any of that, but he has shown no judgment against any sort of "oppression of women" in the way you want to suggest.
And again, sorry, Jesus being on a quest for gender equality? Again, we'd him speaking directly on the subject. You're looking at scriptures with a lens of romantic modern American passion for an idea in conflict with God.
You've put words of judgment into God's mouth.
You're in large company, but that changes nothing with regard to God's judgment.
Your modern sensibilities have turned the modern world into a disaster. Families are breaking down, women are even attempting to be "liberated" of having to use their bodies for the duty of carrying a developing child in their wombs for nine months after they get pregnant and consider themselves entitled to the right to murder.
1 Timothy 2 is talking about a teacher relationship carrying with it authority, such as a school teacher, drill instructor or other trainer, etc. It's not talking about having a conversation with a woman and asking her opinion on something or asking her to explain something you don't know. It's a student/mentor relationship--personally, I will not acknowledge a woman as suitable for that role with a man.
ExtraOrdinary - ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause:: Well said, in both posts!!!
Cally - ExtraOrdinary supported his last post with scripture; he just didn't post it. If you want to go back to Judges, etc. to see what he means, then go ahead. But don't make an arrogant statement saying that he doesn't have any scriptural evidence in his post and is not taking this in a Christian manner. Imo, your posts against ExtraOrdinary have been pretty (very) arrogant and not convincing at all. Just the opposite in fact. It's very childish and unChristian to point fingers, especially at a SPECIFIC GENDER! A gender as a whole means nothing to me. That's like an alien from outer space saying that humans all like tuna on their sandwich. I don't like tuna on my sandwich, btw. And if you want to be really technical, I'm sure you would argue that tuna has nothing to do with spiritual actions, so you could replace tuna with something such as not fasting, lying, or the like.
To be a Man, we have to follow the manliest person who ever existed, Jesus. Jesus is the model for what a Man should be, not a boy. From the looks of it, ExtraOrdinary seems to be doing pretty well at being a Man.
Thank you, have a nice day
: wolflet7 Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 23:20:07
ExtraOrdinary - ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause:: Well said, in both posts!!!
Cally - ExtraOrdinary supported his last post with scripture; he just didn't post it. If you want to go back to Judges, etc. to see what he means, then go ahead. But don't make an arrogant statement saying that he doesn't have any scriptural evidence in his post and is not taking this in a Christian manner. Imo, your posts against ExtraOrdinary have been pretty (very) arrogant and not convincing at all. Just the opposite in fact. It's very childish and unChristian to point fingers, especially at a SPECIFIC GENDER! A gender as a whole means nothing to me. That's like an alien from outer space saying that humans all like tuna on their sandwich. I don't like tuna on my sandwich, btw. And if you want to be really technical, I'm sure you would argue that tuna has nothing to do with spiritual actions, so you could replace tuna with something such as not fasting, lying, or the like.
To be a Man, we have to follow the manliest person who ever existed, Jesus. Jesus is the model for what a Man should be, not a boy. From the looks of it, ExtraOrdinary seems to be doing pretty well at being a Man.
Thank you, have a nice day
I've been around this debate many times having heard the same rehearsed popular theology supporting modern attitudes. Sure, Deborah was a judge, but I've heard a fair number of people point out out that she tried to get Barak to "take a lead" as it were.
"ExtraOrdinary" cannot point to a passage of scripture that remotely says anything he wants it to, such as "treat women as equals" (in the modern American sense) and frankly, he should look at the rest of this thread. If women really were treated as equals I think they'd realize just how rough men have had to have it in order to be providers throughout history.
But in the modern world, it's looking like it's coming to that. Maybe you're okay with it wolflet, but there is a RAPIDLY growing number of men (and women, actually) who are sick of the "treat us as equals but give us the chivalry perks" attitude and are fixing to see if we can really see how real, actual "gender equality" will actually work out.
At any rate, I'd like to see "ExtraOrdinary" at least check out what's already been said on the thread. I'm sure he'll find plenty more to complain about.
: wolflet7 Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 23:20:07
ExtraOrdinary - ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause:: ::applause:: Well said, in both posts!!!
Cally - ExtraOrdinary supported his last post with scripture; he just didn't post it. If you want to go back to Judges, etc. to see what he means, then go ahead. But don't make an arrogant statement saying that he doesn't have any scriptural evidence in his post and is not taking this in a Christian manner. Imo, your posts against ExtraOrdinary have been pretty (very) arrogant and not convincing at all. Just the opposite in fact. It's very childish and unChristian to point fingers, especially at a SPECIFIC GENDER! A gender as a whole means nothing to me. That's like an alien from outer space saying that humans all like tuna on their sandwich. I don't like tuna on my sandwich, btw. And if you want to be really technical, I'm sure you would argue that tuna has nothing to do with spiritual actions, so you could replace tuna with something such as not fasting, lying, or the like.
To be a Man, we have to follow the manliest person who ever existed, Jesus. Jesus is the model for what a Man should be, not a boy. From the looks of it, ExtraOrdinary seems to be doing pretty well at being a Man.
Thank you, have a nice day
::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::cheerleader:: ::cheerleader:: ::woo:: ::woo:: ::amen::
Cally
You bet I'd prefer being surrounded by gentlemen such as ExtraOrdinary rather than some of the flame throwers around here. I, personally, perfer a little Cortisone for the ears to a couple bottles of Pepto Bismol for the stomach.
: Lavender Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 23:58:48
Cally
You bet I'd prefer being surrounded by gentlemen such as ExtraOrdinary rather than some of the flame throwers around here. I, personally, perfer a little Cortisone for the ears to a couple bottles of Pepto Bismol for the stomach.
Color me surprised. ::lookaround::
: Cally Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 00:03:09
: Lavender Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 23:58:48
Cally
You bet I'd prefer being surrounded by gentlemen such as ExtraOrdinary rather than some of the flame throwers around here. I, personally, perfer a little Cortisone for the ears to a couple bottles of Pepto Bismol for the stomach.
Color me surprised. ::lookaround::
Nah, I think green would be right.
: Lavender Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 02:04:01
: Cally Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 00:03:09
: Lavender Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 23:58:48
Cally
You bet I'd prefer being surrounded by gentlemen such as ExtraOrdinary rather than some of the flame throwers around here. I, personally, perfer a little Cortisone for the ears to a couple bottles of Pepto Bismol for the stomach.
Color me surprised. ::lookaround::
Nah, I think green would be right.
Green? ::headscratch::
I did not put the list below to compare and contrast men issues and women issues. This is to indicate that men in this date do not have it any easier as many thinks.
1) Building Fellowship; reconnecting to meaningful & supportive fellowship with each other.
2) Fatherhood Support - Father's rights, the problem of fathers being asked to "pay and stay away,
There were menservants and exiles whom were men in the past. Slavery was impacted on BOTH genders.
: Man_Of_Honor Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 07:48:40
I did not put the list below to compare and contrast men issues and women issues. This is to indicate that men in this date do not have it any easier as many thinks.
1) Building Fellowship; reconnecting to meaningful & supportive fellowship with each other.
2) Fatherhood Support - Father's rights, the problem of fathers being asked to "pay and stay away,
: Kindle Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 08:44:37
: Man_Of_Honor Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 07:48:40
I did not put the list below to compare and contrast men issues and women issues. This is to indicate that men in this date do not have it any easier as many thinks.
1) Building Fellowship; reconnecting to meaningful & supportive fellowship with each other.
2) Fatherhood Support - Father's rights, the problem of fathers being asked to "pay and stay away,
ObeyThe Gospel...a very interesting handle.
What say the scriptures about this issue you bring to the table?
Does our 21st century westernized American culture have any influence forming our perceptions?
Just what is Feminism...really, and how has it affected our life?
Since the fall of mankind in the garden the relationship between men and women was changed for the worse. Man was created as the head from the beginning, and woman was his helpmeet. It was to Adam that God gave instructions to, and he in turn instructed his wife. This process is still in effect today... if one obeys the Gospel.
The relationship between men and women is to be a mutual respect and love for one another. Not only for men and women, but every person should respect each other by virtue of the fact that we are all a part of God's creation. However, since we all have been negatively affected by the world we must endeavour to practise the Gospel message daily.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Rom 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Rom 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
This is the Gospel message we are to obey...it is a hard saying but it is TRUTH!
Feminism as a belief system has a long history and it's effects have been far reaching in this country. ABC has a tag line at the bottom of their logo on some shows, with a voiceover which say's, "A New Kind Of Family". That is what this belief system has been doing for the last 50 or so years... creating a new kind of family. How many tv commercials depict a man being emasculated by a woman in varring dergees? How many men and his children have been torn assunder by this evil system through the inequality of the "justice" system?
No longer is a family considered a working father, a mother at home teaching her children, and they together raising up a generation of God fearing adults. Now I understand that this 50's description of the family seems corny, we would have to go back when America was an agricultural society to recapture the closeness of a family working in sync for their survival.
We are where we are now and each one of us can live according to the strict requirements of the Gospel message if we be not hearers only. I speak as though I am addressing those of the Household of God...
Good Day,
BlackSheep
One would not necessarily have to return to pre-1950's or even some sort of agrarian society for a traditional or God-lead or Biblically directed sort of marriage. I detest the rational that following God's idea of how things will work entails going back in time. It doesn't and a wise person should realize a living God would not require a static creation. God simply requires we follow his Will and guidance. He never said it requires a certain era or time period or career field. The point of God's salvation and our hope is that He sent His Son to save us...no matter who we are or where we are at or what we do.
God created Adam and his helpmate in a perfect environment, before the fall of man. Thereafter, and now, we live in a sin filled fallen world. Anytime any of us put down, objectify or disgrace another, be it male or female, we speak and act against God's sovereign Will and his commandment of loving one another.
As a feminist (and I have been one since before I was saved and know the difference!!) I will say a big thank you to Jesus for loving me as a child of God and accepting me into His family. I will say a husband and wife should love each other and let the dang man lead in prayer if that is what spiritual discernment and the Bible tell you.
I will also say that females like me maybe should remain single and work on tact/speaking the truth with grace so we don't make misled little boys *cough* cry and force them to be accountable for their projected insecurities. Just sayin' ;)
: p.progress Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 12:56:54
testing only
{quote}
BAM is a good man
{/quote}
What? ::shrug::
: MeMyself Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 12:58:20
: p.progress Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 12:56:54
testing only
{quote}
BAM is a good man
{/quote}
What? ::shrug::
A test...was only a test to make sure I quote properly.
: p.progress Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 13:00:51
: MeMyself Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 12:58:20
: p.progress Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 12:56:54
testing only
{quote}
BAM is a good man
{/quote}
What? ::shrug::
A test...was only a test to make sure I quote properly.
::cool:: Gottcha!
One would not necessarily have to return to pre-1950's or even some sort of agrarian society for a traditional or God-lead or Biblically directed sort of marriage. I detest the rational that following God's idea of how things will work entails going back in time. It doesn't and a wise person should realize a living God would not require a static creation. God simply requires we follow his Will and guidance. He never said it requires a certain era or time period or career field.
We are in agreement then... my use of an agrarian society is by way of example of the cloesness we once had as a society as a whole. Not that God is limited in His power to preserve a family based upon "their" social status. Although the simplicity of the Gospel is real, it becomes unproductive when one does not abide in Christ.
God created Adam and his helpmate in a perfect environment, before the fall of man. Thereafter, and now, we live in a sin filled fallen world. Anytime any of us put down, objectify or disgrace another, be it male or female, we speak and act against God's sovereign Will and his commandment of loving one another.
Here again we are in agreement... however, the difficulty of the woman's position as a result of the transgression against God's Law is real. (Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.)
As a feminist (and I have been one since before I was saved and know the difference!!) I will say a big thank you to Jesus for loving me as a child of God and accepting me into His family. I will say a husband and wife should love each other and let the dang man lead in prayer if that is what spiritual discernment and the Bible tell you.
Yes! Thank God that while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly. I know that God loved me enough to save me and enough not to leave me the way He found me. I would like to understand your diffinition of "feminist". I find it interesting the words chosen to describe the interaction of the wife to the husband..."let the
dang man lead in prayer..." Dang, being a slang for "damn", and using "the man" instead giving honor to the man as husband. Have you ever been married?
I will also say that females like me maybe should remain single and work on tact/speaking the truth with grace so we don't make misled little boys *cough* cry and force them to be accountable for their projected insecurities. Just sayin' ;)
We are in agreement here as well..."females" like you should remain single that you may devote yourself to the Lord.
1Co 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
1Co 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
1Co 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
Good Day
BlackSheep
No, never married. "Dang" as in part of a slang expression to indicate I am tired of people arguing about who should do what when where and how :)
I agree about the curse (it reads directly from Genesis). It explains why some of my friends will do anything for a guy, desperate, horrible, disgraceful things. I am glad not to be so "boy crazy"! However, Christ has freed us from any earthly curse and using that bit of Scripture to condemn all females or justify poor treatment is a stretch. I know some do but they can discuss that with God sometime I suppose.
**edited to add, "feminist" as firm belief that females are equal to men in the eyes of the Lord (really all that matters) but also to include equal opportunity in the workplace/hiring, etc but not to include dismissing job requirements (such as lifting 200 pounds) in order to meet a quota for sex in the workplace.
: fassopony Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:56:16
No, never married. "Dang" as in part of a slang expression to indicate I am tired of people arguing about who should do what when where and how :)
I agree about the curse (it reads directly from Genesis). It explains why some of my friends will do anything for a guy, desperate, horrible, disgraceful things. I am glad not to be so "boy crazy"! However, Christ has freed us from any earthly curse and using that bit of Scripture to condemn all females or justify poor treatment is a stretch. I know some do but they can discuss that with God sometime I suppose.
Right . . . the curse was broken . . . which means it's the job of women to convince men everywhere that the curse is broken.
But before that happens completely, is the curse really broken? ::pondering::
Amazing logic. Just amazing.
Justify your behavior anyway you like, Cally.
Your utterly amazing lack of logic in jumping from Christ's redeeming humankind to assuming that means women have some sort of job to convince men of something is ridiculous at best.
I am not name calling, just utterly astounded at the projecting behavior and negative spirit you possess.
: fassopony Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 23:30:54
Justify your behavior anyway you like, Cally.
Your utterly amazing lack of logic in jumping from Christ's redeeming humankind to assuming that means women have some sort of job to convince men of something is ridiculous at best.
I am not name calling, just utterly astounded at the projecting behavior and negative spirit you possess.
I don't think you even understood what I said . . . at all.
Reviewing the curses dealt to Adam and Eve, Adam will die (so does Eve), Adam will do hard work to get food (so does Eve, unless a man does it for her), Eve gets multiplied pain in childbearing (Adam doesn't), and the man will now rule over woman (obviously that applies to Eve and can't apply to Adam).
None of those things really change after one is saved--except some people got caught up straight to heaven, possibly, but most believers die the same natural deaths that are the legacy of Adam and Eve.
But for the most part, you want to say that that ONE curse gets an overhaul. And I'm saying, that's a logic-free touchie-feely belief that can't come from any kind of reason.
What I was trying to say in that post is that you saying men no longer rule over women ultimately manifests itself in . . . what? Men just deciding to quit being "oppressive," right? So the lifting of that curse is DEPENDANT on the actions of someone other than the person being "redeemed."
In practice, being "redeemed" from that curse meams you're just going to say (which sounds like you're saying now): "hey men, Christ redeemed us women, so you can stop being oppressive now!" And then that's how you get your redemption in Christ (or only after the men actually decide to see it your way).
And that's ridiculous. It's a theology force-fit around the agenda of feminism.
By the way, separate question: if you believe in "equality" as a feminist, how do you feel about the total death of chivalry and other gentlemenly treatment in lieu of equality? That is, no more holding doors open, no more pulling chairs out . . . little things to bigger things--bigger things being no more "women and children first." Some women are in favor of that kind of TOTAL equality while others want "equality and then some" by asking for chivalry in addition. Where would you say you fall in that debate?
Although I am a "newbie" on this site, and others may have a higher "status" of "senor member"; the status of a member is only a result of a mathematical algorithm. My newbie status just means I have not logged as much time through post responses as others.
What really matters and exposes the heart of a person is how they live their life, and what comes from their heart through their thoughts, words and deeds.
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
What is really "amazing" to me is the lack scriptural support to some of these "opinions" expressed on this "Christian" site.
The scriptures are correct in saying that the whole world is still under the curse of sin, and will remain thus until Christ returns to make all things new. Therefore, the actions of your "girl friends" who do such things concerning men is proof of the sinfulness of the human condition in this persent world.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Good Day
BlackSheep
Cally, stop projecting your ides of what I and anyone else is doing onto your prefabricated agenda.
I am speaking about women. I did not refer to oppression by men. Again, I am speaking (writing) about women. I don't give a rats patoot if you think that what I clearly wrote in English meant I was talking about men, unicorns, hot wings or oppression of tree frogs.
The fact of the matter is I am speaking of women and their actions not insinuating the blame game you seem so fond of and portray so clearly with your posts. Get it straight kiddo.I never said one curse gets an overhaul.
You did though, illogically.
Congratulations on making up a whole bunch of things that were neither said nor implied by me. You win the tall tale contest.
I don't debate people who have no actual grasp of what is being said. Taking the statement that I said--
**edited to add, "feminist" as firm belief that females are equal to men in the eyes of the Lord (really all that matters) but also to include equal opportunity in the workplace/hiring, etc but not to include dismissing job requirements (such as lifting 200 pounds) in order to meet a quota for sex in the workplace.
and turning it into your histrionic over the top propaganda spewing idea of "well now we won't be being chivalrous anymore, lah-tee-dah" highlights the fact that you obviously receive and believe the emails sent out with no merit. You have never bothered to read or comprehend them, nor have you bothered to read or comprehend anything stated here. Your debating skill is nil as you resort to emotional wranglings, illogical conclusions that somehow don't even pertain to the matter at hand and regurgitate information found in mass hysteria emails.
Go ahead and type out a long, drawn out response if you like. I'm not going to waste my time responding. Your posts are filled with negativity, blame and criticism. An accurate description of you I suppose.
: BlackSheep Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 07:18:33
Although I am a "newbie" on this site, and others may have a higher "status" of "senor member"; the status of a member is only a result of a mathematical algorithm. My newbie status just means I have not logged as much time through post responses as others.
Yes, we are all aware of this...
: ObeyTheGospel Sat May 26, 2012 - 00:34:42
After all, feminism is most popular in the West, so it stands to reason that the West would have this big double standard: "Respect women no matter what, but don't do it for men."
The feminist standard is to respect women no matter what AND do not respect men no matter what. Both are wrong. Not all actions and choices deserve respect.
: chosenone Sat May 26, 2012 - 15:31:26
A prenup will only come into effect if the marriage ends. Therefore, anyone who gets a prenup is already thinking about who gets what if the marriage ends. A terrible way to start a marriage.
Appeal to Emotion. Pre-nups are a reasonable way to begin. What is terrible is not pre-nups but the irrational divorce rates that make pre-nups necessary.
A marriage is the only thing I know where people let themselves be liable for legal and financial risk purely for emotional reasons.
: ObeyTheGospel Sun May 27, 2012 - 18:51:31
"Look how men ... use women for sex.
What are men supposed to use as sex object?
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 09:20:11
: ObeyTheGospel Sat May 26, 2012 - 00:34:42
After all, feminism is most popular in the West, so it stands to reason that the West would have this big double standard: "Respect women no matter what, but don't do it for men."
The feminist standard is to respect women no matter what AND do not respect men no matter what. Both are wrong. Not all actions and choices deserve respect.
::smile::
I agree, not all action and choices deserve respect,but the PEOPLE do.
: Cally Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:59:15
: fassopony Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:56:16
No, never married. "Dang" as in part of a slang expression to indicate I am tired of people arguing about who should do what when where and how :)
I agree about the curse (it reads directly from Genesis). It explains why some of my friends will do anything for a guy, desperate, horrible, disgraceful things. I am glad not to be so "boy crazy"! However, Christ has freed us from any earthly curse and using that bit of Scripture to condemn all females or justify poor treatment is a stretch. I know some do but they can discuss that with God sometime I suppose.
Right . . . the curse was broken . . . which means it's the job of women to convince men everywhere that the curse is broken.
But before that happens completely, is the curse really broken? ::pondering::
Amazing logic. Just amazing.
What I'm getting from this post, Cally, and from many others you've put up in the 15 pages of this topic, is that women, according to the Bible, and lesser/weaker/should serve men.
Using that logic; when Jesus was on Earth, shouldn't we have served Him? Oh but no, I remember this verse or two where it says that Jesus washed the disciples feet which, going back to Biblical times, servants did to their masters. In fact, I recall that most of what Jesus did was to benefit/serve others.
Just because someone, according to the OLD TESTAMENT, is "lesser" doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't serve them from time to time. After all, it IS God who gives you breath everyday. With your logic of the lesser always serving the greater, God should rightfully take away your ability to read, or comprehend in that matter, this post and the other 15 pages that were put up on this topic. Although, realistically, you never seem to comprehend my posts or anybody who posts "against" you. In fact, I noticed that sometimes you avoid posting back to somebody because they have already seemed to have "won" that argument. But besides the fact...God gives you the ability to read this paragraph, website, etc. If your logic was true, then He could take that away any second, because He has given it to you, but He is above you/you are lesser, so you shouldn't have any rights, right? Hmm... ::pondering::
Being a Christian Man is about serving others, even if you SEEM to be "above" them. Don't let your ego get in the way.
: fassopony Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 08:22:20
Cally, stop projecting your ides of what I and anyone else is doing onto your prefabricated agenda.
I am speaking about women. I did not refer to oppression by men. Again, I am speaking (writing) about women. I don't give a rats patoot if you think that what I clearly wrote in English meant I was talking about men, unicorns, hot wings or oppression of tree frogs. The fact of the matter is I am speaking of women and their actions not insinuating the blame game you seem so fond of and portray so clearly with your posts. Get it straight kiddo.
I never said one curse gets an overhaul. You did though, illogically.
Congratulations on making up a whole bunch of things that were neither said nor implied by me. You win the tall tale contest.
I don't debate people who have no actual grasp of what is being said. Taking the statement that I said--
**edited to add, "feminist" as firm belief that females are equal to men in the eyes of the Lord (really all that matters) but also to include equal opportunity in the workplace/hiring, etc but not to include dismissing job requirements (such as lifting 200 pounds) in order to meet a quota for sex in the workplace.
and turning it into your histrionic over the top propaganda spewing idea of "well now we won't be being chivalrous anymore, lah-tee-dah" highlights the fact that you obviously receive and believe the emails sent out with no merit. You have never bothered to read or comprehend them, nor have you bothered to read or comprehend anything stated here. Your debating skill is nil as you resort to emotional wranglings, illogical conclusions that somehow don't even pertain to the matter at hand and regurgitate information found in mass hysteria emails.
What emails are you talking about?
I was asking a question about the chivalry debate. Are you unwilling to answer?
: wolflet7 Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 10:21:18
: Cally Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:59:15
: fassopony Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:56:16
No, never married. "Dang" as in part of a slang expression to indicate I am tired of people arguing about who should do what when where and how :)
I agree about the curse (it reads directly from Genesis). It explains why some of my friends will do anything for a guy, desperate, horrible, disgraceful things. I am glad not to be so "boy crazy"! However, Christ has freed us from any earthly curse and using that bit of Scripture to condemn all females or justify poor treatment is a stretch. I know some do but they can discuss that with God sometime I suppose.
Right . . . the curse was broken . . . which means it's the job of women to convince men everywhere that the curse is broken.
But before that happens completely, is the curse really broken? ::pondering::
Amazing logic. Just amazing.
What I'm getting from this post, Cally, and from many others you've put up in the 15 pages of this topic, is that women, according to the Bible, and lesser/weaker/should serve men.
Nah I actually think everyone can serve each other.
Using that logic; when Jesus was on Earth, shouldn't we have served Him? Oh but no, I remember this verse or two where it says that Jesus washed the disciples feet which, going back to Biblical times, servants did to their masters. In fact, I recall that most of what Jesus did was to benefit/serve others.
Indeed, the Son of Man didn't come to be served but to serve. Some were obedient to him while he was on the Earth, considering him to be their master, while others decidedly weren't. The ones who believed Jesus was their master were prepared to do anything Jesus told them to do.
Just because someone, according to the OLD TESTAMENT, is "lesser" doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't serve them from time to time. After all, it IS God who gives you breath everyday. With your logic of the lesser always serving the greater, God should rightfully take away your ability to read, or comprehend in that matter, this post and the other 15 pages that were put up on this topic. Although, realistically, you never seem to comprehend my posts or anybody who posts "against" you. In fact, I noticed that sometimes you avoid posting back to somebody because they have already seemed to have "won" that argument. But besides the fact...God gives you the ability to read this paragraph, website, etc. If your logic was true, then He could take that away any second, because He has given it to you, but He is above you/you are lesser, so you shouldn't have any rights, right? Hmm... ::pondering::
Without going into detail about those posts you think I'm not "comprehending" and other's who posted who "won" the argument . . . well, the feeling is mutual, what can I say? No, I don't have any "rights" with God, he is able to do anything with me that He wants and I'm required to do anything He says.
Being a Christian Man is about serving others, even if you SEEM to be "above" them. Don't let your ego get in the way.
Okay. ::smile::
: Lively Stone Sat May 26, 2012 - 15:56:01
What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.
That is certainly part of the feminist propaganda. Anyone with any practical life experience also knows men tend to be more able to put aside their emotions & think through problems.
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 11:33:06
: Lively Stone Sat May 26, 2012 - 15:56:01
What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.
That is certainly part of the feminist propaganda. Anyone with any practical life experience also knows men tend to be more able to put aside their emotions & think through problems.
To my understanding, that's one of the natural effects of testosterone, actually--increases objective thinking.
: Cally Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 11:53:21To my understanding, that's one of the natural effects of testosterone, actually--increases objective thinking.
Your sentence is not clear to me. The implication that the hormone estrogen has less of an effect on objective thinking? This, in turn, implies humans are not truly capable of choice at all but merely driven by whatever hormone may be coursing through our veins.
My point is, all things considered, men demonstrate a far greater capacity to not be swayed by emotion, especially in times of great crisis; to think logically and morally. This is why throughout the ages in all places men have dominated leadership roles.
Feminists say that is b/c they have not been allowed to occupy such roles. That is victim mentality. There is a reason men have not had to be "allowed" by women to take the lead in war, in peace and in the hearts of our countrymen!
: MeMyself Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 09:42:35
I agree, not all action and choices deserve respect,but the PEOPLE do.
Stupid is as stupid does. I believe the Christian command is to love your neighbor, not respect them no matter what.
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 12:02:13
: Cally Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 11:53:21To my understanding, that's one of the natural effects of testosterone, actually--increases objective thinking.
Your sentence is not clear to me. The implication that the hormone estrogen has less of an effect on objective thinking? This, in turn, implies humans are not truly capable of choice at all but merely driven by whatever hormone may be coursing through our veins.
My point is, all things considered, men demonstrate a far greater capacity to not be swayed by emotion, especially in times of great crisis; to think logically and morally. This is why throughout the ages in all places men have dominated leadership roles.
Feminists say that is b/c they have not been allowed to occupy such roles. That is victim mentality. There is a reason men have not had to be "allowed" by women to take the lead in war, in peace and in the hearts of our countrymen!
Well, and one has to ask the question of how it is that one half of the population can manage to oppress the other half--when they're in equal numbers and in equal positions. We can see that sometimes it happens with race because of differences in numbers (one can be in the minority, disadvantaged in numbers) and also if one group winds up on, say, a lousy part of the Earth that doesn't yield as easily to growing food and has harsh weather conditions for example.
But men and women? Almost always close to equal in numbers and they're in the same places as men, inevitably in contact with them all the time. Yet one half of the population managed to "oppress" the other? Please.
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 12:06:08
: MeMyself Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 09:42:35
I agree, not all action and choices deserve respect,but the PEOPLE do.
Stupid is as stupid does. I believe the Christian command is to love your neighbor, not respect them no matter what.
Ok? ::headscratch:: People deserve to be treated with respect NO MATTER WHAT, even when calling them out on disrespectful behavior choices. THAT is what I meant. Love is another form of respect.
Okay Cally, thanks for clearing that up ::smile::
: MeMyself Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 12:36:49
Ok? ::headscratch:: People deserve to be treated with respect NO MATTER WHAT, even when calling them out on disrespectful behavior choices. THAT is what I meant. Love is another form of respect.
Then what you mean is nonsense. You are overextending the idea of hating the sin but loving the sinner. Should we respect Satan? Respect has to be
earned, be deserved. Love does not.
: wolflet7 Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 14:01:59
Okay Cally, thanks for clearing that up ::smile::
You know wolflet, to try and expand the discussion with you which may or may not be on the topics of your thoughts, let's think about Jesus' service to others.
If it sounds like I'm trying to be argumentative, please don't take it that way--though I recognize I'm contradicting some people's sentiments, I don't mean to be offensive.
Firstly, let's not forget that Jesus told us to rebuke our brother if he sins, which is, in my mind, what I'm doing with some of my speech about injustices I perceive (and I would think that's what people who rebuke me think they are doing, although that seems like a paradox to me--rebuking me for rebuking someone else; feel free to comment on that).
It is true that Jesus came to serve. It is true that Jesus laid down his life for us. But when it came to Jesus and his disciples, in my mind there's no doubt that Jesus was "the boss" as it were. Some people didn't realize Jesus was boss, and Jesus was gentle on them for it! But nonetheless, Jesus was the boss, the king, and that means everyone around him ought to be prepared to do absolutely anything Jesus told them to do.
I was made for God. I was made to do absolutely anything God tells me to do, all the while showing the utmost respect. I obey his every last whim. As I do so, God lavishes his love on me, as he is kind and gentle. He flexes his power impressively for my sake!
I believe husband and wife relationships are parallel to that as the Bible says. Man was not made for woman, but woman for man. Similarly to above, women are commanded to respect their husbands. Husbands should be patient with their wives and have their interests in mind, BUT, like Jesus was with his disciples, that doesn't mean that Jesus is the one who ought to be bossed around--the man was meant to lead. That is the relationship in which they are both "submissive" to each others needs out of reverence for Christ while the woman is distinctly submissive to her husband's leadership. Jesus led, the disciples responded. Similarly, the man leads, the woman responds. That order must not be disrupted.
Do we agree?
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 14:33:59
: MeMyself Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 12:36:49
Ok? ::headscratch:: People deserve to be treated with respect NO MATTER WHAT, even when calling them out on disrespectful behavior choices. THAT is what I meant. Love is another form of respect.
Then what you mean is nonsense. You are overextending the idea of hating the sin but loving the sinner. Should we respect Satan? Respect has to be earned, be deserved. Love does not.
Satan is NOT a person.
Whatever. Im not going to argue with you about this.
That does not answer my question. Should we respect Satan?
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 15:17:08
That does not answer my question. Should we respect Satan?
Respecting Satan has less than nothing to do with anything we are talking about.
You don't believe people deserve common human respect, fine. Be blessed.
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 12:06:08
: MeMyself Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 09:42:35
I agree, not all action and choices deserve respect,but the PEOPLE do.
Stupid is as stupid does. I believe the Christian command is to love your neighbor, not respect them no matter what.
Yeah but do you see the Bible telling us to love Satan? I'm not saying that we should necessarily hate him, either . . .
: Cally Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 14:54:35
: wolflet7 Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 14:01:59
Okay Cally, thanks for clearing that up ::smile::
I believe husband and wife relationships are parallel to that as the Bible says. Man was not made for woman, but woman for man. Similarly to above, women are commanded to respect their husbands. Husbands should be patient with their wives and have their interests in mind, BUT, like Jesus was with his disciples, that doesn't mean that Jesus is the one who ought to be bossed around--the man was meant to lead. That is the relationship in which they are both "submissive" to each others needs out of reverence for Christ while the woman is distinctly submissive to her husband's leadership. Jesus led, the disciples responded. Similarly, the man leads, the woman responds. That order must not be disrupted.
Do we agree?
I understand where you're coming from, but that doesn't correlate with what you said earlier, about women and men being treated equally. I'm still confused on that. Maybe we could discuss this more through private messages? I feel somewhat distracted by everybody's posts; it's like two conversations going on at the same time.
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 09:20:11
: ObeyTheGospel Sat May 26, 2012 - 00:34:42
After all, feminism is most popular in the West, so it stands to reason that the West would have this big double standard: "Respect women no matter what, but don't do it for men."
The feminist standard is to respect women no matter what AND do not respect men no matter what. Both are wrong. Not all actions and choices deserve respect.
The liberal progressives movements idea of feminism, yep. And it's bunk. Not my brand for sure (they rarely allow conservative prolif Christian gals around the liberals anyway LOL!!!).
Oh, and I tend to be less emotional and more rational than most I work with. Male or female. I also tend to be more confident and assertive, easily tending toward aggressive if needed. And I look girlier than most. So, stereotypes can be true but not always.
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 09:40:07: ObeyTheGospel
"Look how men ... use women for sex.
What are men supposed to use as sex object?
And the bible is written from the viewpoint that women use the men for sex and not the other way around.
Apparently the church cannot even get that right.
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 11:33:06: Lively Stone
What the word of God means concerning the stronger-weaker vessel is merely physicality.
That is certainly part of the feminist propaganda. Anyone with any practical life experience also knows men tend to be more able to put aside their emotions & think through problems.
From the Jewish perspective (the bible was written by Jews) being able to put aside emotion is NOT a good thing.
God does not put aside emotion ....
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 15:17:08
That does not answer my question. Should we respect satan?
In a negative sense - yes. We are warned about his wiles and objectives. If we pay that no respect we will be defeated by him.
One of the best tactiticians in WW2 was general Rommel. Had Hitler put him in charge of the whole Nazi war machine, they probably would have won. Those who fought him in North Africa concluded he was absolutely brilliant. Hated the man, hated what he stood for but respected his prowess.
It is the same way with the devil (and yes, he is a person); hate him and what he stands for but respect his deviousness.
: wolflet7 Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 19:36:04
I understand where you're coming from, but that doesn't correlate with what you said earlier, about women and men being treated equally. I'm still confused on that.
What equality means in practice is the problem. I suggest you read Alex Toquiquille
Democracy in America. Mena nd women have different roles but they are equally important. You can't be a leader without a follower, etc.
The proper perspective on understanding equality and actual feminism is that we are to love (or, in reference to language translation, show or act love towards) all people. That is simple to understand but not easy to actually do.
Examples of treating people with love ----
A customer service representative is kind and patient towards a flaming mad abusively inappropriate customer. THAT is showing or acting love, in simple human form. Break it down to human relations, a husband is kind and patient to a flaming mad abusively inappropriate wife.
Example of treating people with equality----
My coworker Cash is a supervisor who is amazing at tracking production, bill to pay and using Excel, etc., to show how it influences operations. My other coworker John is a supervisor who is very talented at motivating and coaching his team to produce well, they hit or exceed goal monthly. They receive the same pay and receive the same treatment/status at work. Two very different strengths in the same position, two very equally respected supervisors. As an aside, I routinely beat them both but that's just me being cocky LOL!!
This is feminism at it's most simple form. I do the same job as Cash and John, I get the same pay, same treatment, etc. Cash would never expect me to so "traditional girly" things outside of my job expectations like admin/secretarial or cleaning the breakroom for him nor would my manager.
To me, this is simple stuff.
: Kindle Sat May 26, 2012 - 14:56:33
I agree with Chosen.. entering into a marriage via pre-nups doesn't say much for the couple's faith and willingness toward that marriage. ButI guess there are some situations, at least, where they can be seen as prudent.
ALL situations not some makes pre-nups prudent. I went to a man-hating female attorney. I told her I had a pre and post nuptial agreement. Rather than compliment my acting pro-actively, she looked scornfully at me and said, without even knowing what the nuptial agreements said, that
the court may not enforce the nuptial agreements.To that, I asked what then is the purpose of these agreements. She did not say. There is no good reason to allow your future liability to dictated by government legislatures and courts when there is a viable alternative.
You make a classic
Appeal to Emotion, guilt via "it does not say much." As though marriage is exclusively a romantic event with no legal or financial implications for failure!
***tangent alert***
[/b]
In reference to the prenup situation, what I don't get is how people marry unsuitable folks and then act all surprised when they behave the same exact way after getting married. My friend Bob marries Sue. Sue has never had any real employment, has 3 kids from 3 different men, mooched off of friends, family and strangers to get by and Bob marries her and then is surprised when she continues to be fiscally irresponsible. or, Jane marries Mark who sleeps around with anything and anyone and continues to do so after being married.
I do know people have issues and make mistakes but get real! The whore you met drunk in a bar will still be the whore you met drunk in a bar after marriage. *shrug*
: PeterEnergy Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 13:50:51
: Kindle Sat May 26, 2012 - 14:56:33
I agree with Chosen.. entering into a marriage via pre-nups doesn't say much for the couple's faith and willingness toward that marriage. ButI guess there are some situations, at least, where they can be seen as prudent.
ALL situations not some makes pre-nups prudent. I went to a man-hating female attorney. I told her I had a pre and post nuptial agreement. Rather than compliment my acting pro-actively, she looked scornfully at me and said, without even knowing what the nuptial agreements said, that the court may not enforce the nuptial agreements.
To that, I asked what then is the purpose of these agreements. She did not say. There is no good reason to allow your future liability to dictated by government legislatures and courts when there is a viable alternative.
You make a classic Appeal to Emotion, guilt via "it does not say much." As though marriage is exclusively a romantic event with no legal or financial implications for failure!
Exactly. If you stay married everything you have belongs to each other. Without a pre-nup a man stands to become a male slave to an ex-wife.
Planning for failure in marriage is sad. It says a lot about those that do it.
One situation provided by DaveW is a family owned business. A pre-nup that would prohibit the divorcing spouse from having a slice of that pie is pretty reasonable. It is OPM that is involved.
I can see pre marital debt as well. An exclusion of responsibility on behalf of the non-debtor should the debt remain, or a written acknowledgement that monies going toward the debt be seen as a direct benefit to the debtor.. in regards to the division of marital property. I don't know how the courts actually approach these things, so...
"the court may not enforce the nuptial agreements"... yeah, well.. that is something else to consider.
Solution! Both the man and the woman give away all they have to the poor, save for enough to live a humble life together, and go from there. ::idea::
: Kindle Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 16:19:41
One situation provided by DaveW is a family owned business. A pre-nup that would prohibit the divorcing spouse from having a slice of that pie is pretty reasonable. It is OPM that is involved.
I can see pre marital debt as well. An exclusion of responsibility on behalf of the non-debtor should the debt remain, or a written acknowledgement that monies going toward the debt be seen as a direct benefit to the debtor.. in regards to the division of marital property. I don't know how the courts actually approach these things, so...
"the court may not enforce the nuptial agreements"... yeah, well.. that is something else to consider.
Solution! Both the man and the woman give away all they have to the poor, save for enough to live a humble life together, and go from there. ::idea::
That doesn't really work. The man is going to owe a boatload of child support and alimoney and being poor doesn't exactly solve that problem.
Again, I met a guy in this situation: owed money that very few people COULD possibly pay.
: Cally Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 16:21:46
: Kindle Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 16:19:41
One situation provided by DaveW is a family owned business. A pre-nup that would prohibit the divorcing spouse from having a slice of that pie is pretty reasonable. It is OPM that is involved.
I can see pre marital debt as well. An exclusion of responsibility on behalf of the non-debtor should the debt remain, or a written acknowledgement that monies going toward the debt be seen as a direct benefit to the debtor.. in regards to the division of marital property. I don't know how the courts actually approach these things, so...
"the court may not enforce the nuptial agreements"... yeah, well.. that is something else to consider.
Solution! Both the man and the woman give away all they have to the poor, save for enough to live a humble life together, and go from there. ::idea::
That doesn't really work. The man is going to owe a boatload of child support and alimoney and being poor doesn't exactly solve that problem.
Again, I met a guy in this situation: owed money that very few people COULD possibly pay.
Actually I was just talking to a couple this morning. She has children, now full grown, but custody was voluntary given to the ex husband. She was just hit with a $40k action for back child support. Apparently, the action was based on what she was earning when she first divorced.. and times were better. She's only been working min wage jobs when she could get them for awhile now.. paying a portion of her check when she got one.
IOW.. it happens to women too.
My response was directed to Peter.. the whole guilt trip argument
: fassopony Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 13:46:09
Examples of treating people with love ----
A customer service representative is kind and patient towards a flaming mad abusively inappropriate customer. THAT is showing or acting love, in simple human form. Break it down to human relations, a husband is kind and patient to a flaming mad abusively inappropriate wife.
Example of treating people with equality----
My coworker Cash is a supervisor who is amazing at tracking production, bill to pay and using Excel, etc., to show how it influences operations. My other coworker John is a supervisor who is very talented at motivating and coaching his team to produce well, they hit or exceed goal monthly. They receive the same pay and receive the same treatment/status at work. Two very different strengths in the same position, two very equally respected supervisors. As an aside, I routinely beat them both but that's just me being cocky LOL!!
This is feminism at it's most simple form. I do the same job as Cash and John, I get the same pay, same treatment, etc. Cash would never expect me to so "traditional girly" things outside of my job expectations like admin/secretarial or cleaning the breakroom for him nor would my manager.
Very good example Fasso
Sorry to be so abrupt.. am trying to do many things at once.
The thing is lawyers are so expensive.. my friend has all her W-2s, tax returns, etc to show her case. But the children are out of state and they can't even begin to afford to contest this mess.
Men are stuck in the same mess..moreso the men. The other side of the coin, of course, is non custodial parents getting the money out of ex-partners when they're trying to hide incomes, or are simply on the lam..
What to do?
: DaveW Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 05:41:00
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 09:40:07: ObeyTheGospel
"Look how men ... use women for sex.
What are men supposed to use as sex object?
And the bible is written from the viewpoint that women use the men for sex and not the other way around.
Apparently the church cannot even get that right.
rofl Not arguing with what you said, it's just the way you said it! rofl
: Kindle Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 16:31:57
: Cally Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 16:21:46
: Kindle Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 16:19:41
One situation provided by DaveW is a family owned business. A pre-nup that would prohibit the divorcing spouse from having a slice of that pie is pretty reasonable. It is OPM that is involved.
I can see pre marital debt as well. An exclusion of responsibility on behalf of the non-debtor should the debt remain, or a written acknowledgement that monies going toward the debt be seen as a direct benefit to the debtor.. in regards to the division of marital property. I don't know how the courts actually approach these things, so...
"the court may not enforce the nuptial agreements"... yeah, well.. that is something else to consider.
Solution! Both the man and the woman give away all they have to the poor, save for enough to live a humble life together, and go from there. ::idea::
That doesn't really work. The man is going to owe a boatload of child support and alimoney and being poor doesn't exactly solve that problem.
Again, I met a guy in this situation: owed money that very few people COULD possibly pay.
Actually I was just talking to a couple this morning. She has children, now full grown, but custody was voluntary given to the ex husband. She was just hit with a $40k action for back child support. Apparently, the action was based on what she was earning when she first divorced.. and times were better. She's only been working min wage jobs when she could get them for awhile now.. paying a portion of her check when she got one.
IOW.. it happens to women too.
My response was directed to Peter.. the whole guilt trip argument
There are some wonky formulas for child support penalties in general, to be sure. I've heard of others . . .
: Taherd Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 15:53:05
Planning for failure in marriage is sad. It says a lot about those that do it.
Appeal to Emotion. Pre & Post Nupts are like insurance. One does not plan on having a tree fall on their house but they prudently prepare just in case.
: DaveW Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 05:41:00
And the bible is written from the viewpoint that women use the men for sex and not the other way around.
Apparently the church cannot even get that right.
I do not believe the Bible advocates using anyone.
: PeterEnergy Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 09:11:23
: DaveW Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 05:41:00
And the bible is written from the viewpoint that women use the men for sex and not the other way around.
Apparently the church cannot even get that right.
I do not believe the Bible advocates using anyone.
Agreed. Even if it does, you're gonna have to provide some Scriptural evidence; that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time.
Dave is referring to OT passages that specify cultural traditions to be obeyed. I would recommend studying or at least perusing not only a good Bible commentary but also a guide on the narrative genre (in which the OT was written).
Specifically, men are exhorted to use or find comfort in their own wives, not in other women--
Proverbs 5:1822 May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer--may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love.Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress? Why embrace the bosom of another man's wife? For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.
Even so, the WHOLE Bible wasn't written from that viewpoint - only those certain OT passages.
Proverbs is not written in the narrative genre. It is a list of good ideas or "how to guide" written by Solomon.
Jewish culture was very different from today. Spelling out marital activities and underlining a husbands duty to having sexual relations with his wife guaranteed lineage.
Lots of the directives in the Bible for back then seem odd to us now. Shellfish for instance. Why would God not want them to eat shellfish? Maybe because of the high risk of infection and foodborne illness. Same goes with pork.
If God hadn't specified gleaning rights to the widows and poor, Boaz never would have met Ruth.
Fassopony - I will disagree with you on the purpose of some of the "odd" rules in the OT.
I submit they were entirely to mark the people plainly as in covenant with God. Sure some of the dietary laws could be construed to be healthier. But what about wearing fringes on the corners of the robes? Or not blending fabrics? Or having certain commandments tied to your hand and forehead?
They do plainly mark them as people in a covenant with God :) And, they were to be obeyed as a directive from God.
I was trying to get wolflet to understand meaning behind directive, also that while God does not change, our human cultures do. Although God certainly does not have to have a certain meaning or even explain Himself to us, you cannot deny that many of His covenant directives had common sense applications for the world that benefited or was good for His people.
I did not state purpose of covenant law, I expounded on the direct benefits to listening to and obeying God's law for His people.
: fassopony Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 11:08:50
I expounded on the direct benefits to listening to and obeying God's law for His people.
ALWAYS a good idea IMO. ::smile::
True dat!!