Christian Forums

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:28:25
Not following shepherds?  Is that our problem?  Quoting the word of man (or a dream or a vision) as the ultimate in doctrine?  Is there a candid camera somewhere?  Tell me I am being PUNKED...

It's what I am seeing all over the place.

QuoteTell me you got something better than that to PROVE a doctrine that says the Church is under a new law that says we owe 10% of our salary as a PAYMENT, not a gift, but a payment we OWE to God and that he will curse us if we dont pay.

There is no new LAW. His word stands forever.

What I see is an attitude more than anything else in those who reject the tithe. Christians need to develop as encouragers!

Romans 12:15
Be happy with those who are happy. Be sad with those who are sad.


I don't see evidence of that here.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:34:14

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:18:04

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 21:26:12

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 16:07:57
Tithing is all Bible-based.

So are animal sacrifices.  But we don't do them anymore.

Jarrod

Tithing has never been rescinded. Animal sacrifices have...in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be revived.

Please show me where animal sacrifices are rescinded.

If you can, I will show you where tithing as a commandment is rescinded.

Jarrod

You cannot.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:36:42

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:34:14

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:18:04

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 21:26:12

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 16:07:57
Tithing is all Bible-based.

So are animal sacrifices.  But we don't do them anymore.

Jarrod

Tithing has never been rescinded. Animal sacrifices have...in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be revived.

Please show me where animal sacrifices are rescinded.

If you can, I will show you where tithing as a commandment is rescinded.

Jarrod

You cannot.

So, show me where animal sacrifices are rescinded first, and then we shall see.

In the words of a Jew:


...the Holy Temple was destroyed again, this time by the Romans. Once again, we were in exile. This time, the Rabbis told us, the exile will last very long, and no end date is known.

And when the Messiah comes, the Holy Temple will be rebuilt, and once again we will bring sacrifices on the Holy Altar there, as it says "And the sacrificial offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to Hashem, like in the olden days years ago" (Malachi 3:4).

It is still forbidden to bring sacrifices outside of the Holy Temple. We follow, today, the instructions taught us by King Solomon, the Prophet Hosea and the other Prophets, and we pray without bringing sacrifices.

In addition, when we wish to bring a sacrifice, we study the Laws of the particular sacrifice we wish to bring.

So the short answer to your question is that we can no longer bring Sacrifices because the Torah forbids us to bring any Sacrifices outside of the Holy Temple. Since we have no Holy Temple, and it is impossible for us to rebuild it at this time, we keep praying to Hashem that we should be able to rebuild it soon in peace, and once again be able to bring the Praise and Thanksgiving Sacrifices once again.

Ok, let's pretend that answer actually showed in the Bible where animal sacrifices were done away with, because I really want to show you these verses.  Emphasis added by yours truly.

Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hbr 7:11 KJV - If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hbr 7:12 KJV - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hbr 7:18 KJV - For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hbr 7:19 KJV - For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

That should be specific enough, I would think.

Jarrod

Hebrews 7:4-14
4 We can see how great Melchizedek was. Abraham gave him one-tenth part of all he had taken in the war. 5 The Law made the family of Levi the Jewish religious leaders. The Law said that the religious leaders were to take one-tenth part of everything from their own people. 6 Melchizedek was not even from the family group of Levi but Abraham paid him. Melchizedek showed respect to Abraham who was the one who had received God's promises. 7 The one who shows respect is always greater than the one who receives it. 8 Jewish religious leaders receive one-tenth part. They are men and they all die. But here Melchizedek received one-tenth part and is alive. 9 We might say that Levi, who receives one-tenth part, paid one-tenth part through Abraham. 10 Levi was not yet born. He was still inside Abraham's body when Abraham paid Melchizedek.

11 The Law was given during the time when Levi and his sons were the religious leaders. If the work of those religious leaders had been perfect in taking away the sins of the people, there would have been no need for another religious leader. But one like Melchizedek was needed and not one from the family group of Aaron. 12 For when the family group of religious leaders changed, the Law had to be changed also. 13 These things speak of Christ Who is from another family group. That family group never had a religious leader who killed animals and gave gifts at the altar for the sins of the people. 14 Our Lord came from the family group of Judah. Moses did not write anything about religious leaders coming from that family group.




As Abraham gave tithes to the high priest Melchizedek, not a Levite, and 'lives' according to scripture, we also bring our tithes before the high priest like him, called Yeshua, also not a Levite, and lives forever.


Nothing is rescinded concerning the tithe.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 23:24:13
Hebrews 7:4-14
4 We can see how great Melchizedek was. Abraham gave him one-tenth part of all he had taken in the war. 5 The Law made the family of Levi the Jewish religious leaders. The Law said that the religious leaders were to take one-tenth part of everything from their own people. 6 Melchizedek was not even from the family group of Levi but Abraham paid him. Melchizedek showed respect to Abraham who was the one who had received God’s promises. 7 The one who shows respect is always greater than the one who receives it. 8 Jewish religious leaders receive one-tenth part. They are men and they all die. But here Melchizedek received one-tenth part and is alive. 9 We might say that Levi, who receives one-tenth part, paid one-tenth part through Abraham. 10 Levi was not yet born. He was still inside Abraham’s body when Abraham paid Melchizedek.

11 The Law was given during the time when Levi and his sons were the religious leaders. If the work of those religious leaders had been perfect in taking away the sins of the people, there would have been no need for another religious leader. But one like Melchizedek was needed and not one from the family group of Aaron. 12 For when the family group of religious leaders changed, the Law had to be changed also. 13 These things speak of Christ Who is from another family group. That family group never had a religious leader who killed animals and gave gifts at the altar for the sins of the people. 14 Our Lord came from the family group of Judah. Moses did not write anything about religious leaders coming from that family group.




As Abraham gave tithes to the high priest Melchizedek, not a Levite, and 'lives' according to scripture, we also bring our tithes before the high priest like him, called Yeshua, also not a Levite, and lives forever.


Nothing is rescinded concerning the tithe.

Well not in those verses.  It's in verse 18.  You conveniently stopped the quote at verse 14.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 01:16:37

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 23:24:13
Hebrews 7:4-14
4 We can see how great Melchizedek was. Abraham gave him one-tenth part of all he had taken in the war. 5 The Law made the family of Levi the Jewish religious leaders. The Law said that the religious leaders were to take one-tenth part of everything from their own people. 6 Melchizedek was not even from the family group of Levi but Abraham paid him. Melchizedek showed respect to Abraham who was the one who had received God's promises. 7 The one who shows respect is always greater than the one who receives it. 8 Jewish religious leaders receive one-tenth part. They are men and they all die. But here Melchizedek received one-tenth part and is alive. 9 We might say that Levi, who receives one-tenth part, paid one-tenth part through Abraham. 10 Levi was not yet born. He was still inside Abraham's body when Abraham paid Melchizedek.

11 The Law was given during the time when Levi and his sons were the religious leaders. If the work of those religious leaders had been perfect in taking away the sins of the people, there would have been no need for another religious leader. But one like Melchizedek was needed and not one from the family group of Aaron. 12 For when the family group of religious leaders changed, the Law had to be changed also. 13 These things speak of Christ Who is from another family group. That family group never had a religious leader who killed animals and gave gifts at the altar for the sins of the people. 14 Our Lord came from the family group of Judah. Moses did not write anything about religious leaders coming from that family group.




As Abraham gave tithes to the high priest Melchizedek, not a Levite, and 'lives' according to scripture, we also bring our tithes before the high priest like him, called Yeshua, also not a Levite, and lives forever.


Nothing is rescinded concerning the tithe.

Well not in those verses.  It's in verse 18.  You conveniently stopped the quote at verse 14.

It's all about Jesus, our great high priest! We need not make Him an excuse not to bring our tithes and offerings to Him for His blessing and multiplication and use!

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 07:34:47
It's all about Jesus, our great high priest! We need not make Him an excuse not to bring our tithes and offerings to Him for His blessing and multiplication and use!

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.  After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe.  God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Hebrews 7:7 (KJV)  "And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

Quote from: garyarnold on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 10:59:25

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 07:34:47
It's all about Jesus, our great high priest! We need not make Him an excuse not to bring our tithes and offerings to Him for His blessing and multiplication and use!

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.  After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe.  God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Hebrews 7:7 (KJV)  "And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

Your problems with pastoral authority are a menace to the call to tithe and give.

100% wrong.

Being Spirit led instead of following an out-dated Old Testament law, I find myself giving far more than a mere tenth of my income.  My giving is not based on any percentage.  It is based on the needs of where I am giving.

You conveniently ignore that born-again believers are now priests, and according to the scriptures, priests do not tithe.  Maybe you deny being a part of a Royal Priesthood?

Jeremiah 10:21 (KJV)
21For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jeremiah 12:10 (KJV)
10Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jeremiah 22:22 (KJV)
22The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.

Jeremiah 23:1 (KJV)
1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Just because someone has the tithe of pastor doesn't in any way mean that God has called that person.  Today, being a pastor is a career.

I am a Money & Financial Minister and GIVE my services.  I charge nothing for my services.  I accept NO donations of any kind.  God called me to preach, and God has already provided for my needs.  I receive NO reimbursement for any expenses I incur.  Therefore, my needs do not influence my teaching.

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:35:10
Tithing is one of those rules and regulations laid down in the Law.  I am really surprised to find some who preach hot and heavy against the Christian's need to hold to or keep the Law and yet consider tithing as something the Christian is bound to do.  Some things are just weird.

Weird and dangerous too.  And apparently, although we are not under the law of the Bible, according to some, we are under the man-made law of give me the 10% of your salary because it is not yours in the first place.

This thread should be placed under "Doctrines based on Rhema word revelation".  But unfortunately, there is no such thing.

Peace

Once again, can someone please show me the verse that shows that Abraham was under a law of tithing?

I am also interested to see the verse that says that we are not supposed to give as we purposed in our hearts, until we first pay what we owe God because he will require it of us robbers of God's money?

Where is that verse?

Spare me the rhema revelation (Isa 8:20).

P.S. The pharisees were good at tithing, so....?

Peace

Even a secular person tithes and the principle, because it is a God principle, works. Here is a secular person's comments on tithing:



Tithing is the practice of giving away 10% of your income (tithe means "tenth

A liberal definition of firstfruits would include the first of most anything, including the first part of one's income. However, the scriptures restrict the definition of firstfruits, when associated with offerings, to only food. Offerings of firstfruits consisted of grains, grapes (and wine made therefrom), olives (and olive oil made therefrom), and from other crops that come from the ground or soil.

Firstfruit offerings always came from the miracles of God, or from that which was "produced" by God. Man cannot produce crops. Man can only harvest the crops that God produces and gives to us. In Deuteronomy 8:18 God tells us that He gave man the ability to produce wealth. In other words, God gives us the ability to work and earn a living. We earn that income from our labor. Our labor is not holy. Firstfruit offerings only came from God's labor and NEVER man's labor. Saying that the first part of one's income is the firstfruits is not biblical. It fits the definition of firstfruits, but NOT the biblical context relating to offerings.

OLD TESTAMENT
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) "Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

Please keep the personal comments out of your arguments in this discussion.

Stay on topic and there is no name calling allowed in this forum.

Is Tithing New Testament?


Today's Question: One area that I am researching is the Tithe and offering. I know very well what Malachi 3:7-12 teaches that according to the Law if a believer falls short then they have robbed God and fall under a curse. Paul wrote to the Galatians in Galatians. 3:13 telling them they had been redeemed from the cruse of the Law.

The main point of Malachi 3 is often over looked. The prophet was telling the Jews to turn their hearts to God and give with love so the ministries would be fully supplied. I know that God wants us to give—and I believe in the law of reciprocity—and I know we need to support our local church, orphans, widows, etc. Here's my question shouldn't support and giving be from the heart and not because we are under a mandatory legal system? What are your views on Tithes, offerings and giving?

Brother Keith



Bible Answer: You asked a great question. I get this question all the time.
Tithing began before the law was introduced. The Law simply regulated the tithe. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, 400 years before the time of Moses and the Law, and according to Romans 4:12 we are to walk in the footsteps of the faith of Abraham. If tithing was good for him, it should be good for us, too.

We give tithes like Abraham gave them—not by the Law but by faith. And beside that, if the people of God paid ten percent before the Law, and ten percent under the Law, shouldn't we, who live by grace, be doing any less when we have a better covenant (Heb 7:22).

There is a passage in Hebrews, which deals with this issue directly. It is Hebrews 7:8:
In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.

Melchizedek received Abraham's tithe. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living.

Some people think this is a new issue. It is as old as the second century when more and more Gentiles were being converted. The early Jewish believers had no problem with tithing since they had done it under the Law and gave it to the priests. They simply gave their tithe to the elders of the church and did by love. However, as the church became less Jewish this issue came up to the church fathers. They answered the question of tithing with Matthew 23:23:
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Notice Jesus said, "You should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness), without neglecting the former (tithing)." The fathers argued, and rightful so, that Jesus word ends the discussion. Since Jesus said not to neglect the former—being tithing—then no believer should neglect tithing. I wholeheartedly agree!

Some argue that Jesus words are not applicable to us today, because Jesus was under the Law and spoke to those under the Law. Their theory goes something like this: Jesus was giving an instruction to the Jews so His words are not binding to us.
The problem with this interpretation is that these teachers are bringing Christ down to the level of a Jewish prophet or Teacher of the Law. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, so this means every word that comes out of His mouth is eternal. He cannot say anything without it being "spiritual law

All of the following well-known scholars agree that tithing ENDED AT THE CROSS, and that there is NO tithing in the Christian Church.

Scholars at the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary who published their report on tithing in 2005,
John MacArthur,
Chuck Swindoll,
J. Vernon McGee,
Robert Baker (chief SBC historian),
Dr. David Croteau and Dr. Russell Kelly (both of whom wrote their thesis on tithing to get their Ph.D.),
Phillip Schaff (historian),
Alfred Edersheim,
James W. Winfree Ministries,
C. I. Scofield,
Craig Blomberg (Denver Seminary),
Geoffrey W. Bromiley (Fuller Theological Seminary),
Charles Ryrie (Dallas Theological Seminary),
Walter A. Elwell (Wheaton College),
Theodore H. Epp (founder Back to the Bible),
Gary Friesen (former Dean of Multinomah College),
Scholars at the Dallas Theological Seminary,
Dalls Theological Seminary,
Talbot Bible College,
and the list goes on and on.

Let's look closely at Abram's tithe.  First, the goods that Abram gave the tenth from didn't even belong to Abram:

Genesis 14:21 (KJV) - And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

Notice in verse 21 the king of Sodom didn't ask Abram if he would give back to him the people, but rather said GIVE ME the people and keep the goods for yourself.  The way that is worded indicates that the king of Sodom was claiming that the people and the goods belonged to him, but he offered the goods to Abram.

It would normally have been the custom that the victor owns the spoils, but normally the spoils would have belonged to the enemy.  In this case, Abram was RECOVERING goods belonging to the King of Sodom.

NOTE:  The king of Sodom had an original right both to the persons and to the goods, and it would bear a debate whether Abram's acquired right by rescue would supersede his title and extinguish it; but, to prevent all quarrels, the king of Sodom makes this fair proposal (v. 21).
--Should the Church Teach Tithing by Dr. Russell Earl Kelly, pages 24-25

Genesis 14:22-24 (KJV)
22And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
24Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Notice in verses 23 and 24 Abram also acknowledges that the goods belonged to the king of Sodom.  But the king of Sodam offered that Abram could keep the goods for himself. Abram declined the offer.  He didn't want man to take credit for his wealth.  By not accepting any of the goods for himself, Abram was putting all his faith in God to provide for him rather than man.

Therefore, it is clear that both the king of Sodom and Abram acknowledged that the spoils of war did NOT belong to Abram, yet he gave a tenth of the spoils to King Melchizedek.  This would seem that Abram did something wrong, if not even illegal, but Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abram's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils.  Had Abram not given the tenth, he would have gone against custom.

Conclusion:  Abram did NOT give a tenth of his income, or his wealth.  Abram gave a tenth of the spoils of war that didn't belong to him and declined to keep the goods offered to him.  That is NOT an example of tithing for Christians to follow today.  By declining to keep any of the goods for himself, Abram showed his faith that God would provide.  That is the example of faith that Christians should be following.  Furthermore, the law did NOT require a tenth of war spoils to be given, so to say that tithing was before the law and then in the law is not true.  What Abram did was NOT even codified into the later law.

Malachi 3 is NOT God's tithing commands. Start with Malachi 3:7 -(KJV) Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

God is referring to His ORDINANCES, or commands, or laws. The tithing laws are contained in the ORDINANCES, not Malachi 3.

Those ORDINANCES for tithing are as follows:

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe: to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.
Purpose of this tithe:"that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always

Ten Points for Tithing


•Tithe in faith - have faith about presenting your tithe by hearing God's Word on your tithe (Romans 10:17)

•Prove God with your tithes - give your tithes, declaring your expectation that He will bless you (Malachi 3:10-12)

•Tithe with rejoicing - rejoice in every good thing God has done for you (Deuteronomy 26:11)

•Worship God with your tithe - remember God's goodness towards you (Prov.3:9-10)

•Bring your tithe to Jesus - it is Jesus you are presenting your tithe to (Hebrews 6:20)

•Bring your tithe to your home church - if you want enough supply in your house be sure your tithe is providing supply in His house (Malachi 3:10)

•Tithe with all diligence - this lifts your material affairs into God's sphere of care and fosters your good stewardship

•Give your tithe before tax - your increase is before tax and your tithe is on your increase

•Tithe inheritances and all types windfalls - these are part of your increase; they are how God increased you

•Petition God as you tithe - your giving of tithes puts you in a special position of confidence as you ask for God's provision and prospering


Link to this text: http://www.teachingpages.co.uk/topicPresentation.php?articleTenPointerstithe#ixzz1X19I1wc3

140 Questions Tithe-Teachers Should Honestly Answer
by Russell Earl Kelly, PHD

1. According to Genesis 14:11-16 were the spoils of war Abraham received holy tithes from God's holy land? Would they have been "holy

As per the OP:

QuoteIf Abram and tithing are legal twins, where are Abraham's grace offerings? Understand, we are not following Moses, but Abraham. We are not under law in observing tithing. As in all other acts of obedience to God, we rejoice to know His will and take great pleasure in doing it. We are not at all under bondage. We are happy to follow in the footsteps of "the friend of God." If you object to us gathering some details from Moses words, we cite you to I Corinthians 9:8-11. "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?" Paul's readers were not in the place of legality. "Those things were written for our admonition." We derive spiritual benefits from Old Testament writings without being in bondage to anything or any person. The testimonies of saints who tithe are profoundly interesting and instructive. They receive spiritual blessings thru paying tithes. They do not look at this gracious rite thru Moses eyes, but thru the eyes of Abraham. I call it a gracious rite because it was instituted under grace. If our father in the faith gave the tenth and the prototype accepted it, how much more should we, the children in faith, give the tenth to the great High Priest? Beloved Brother, I praise My God for the privilege of answering your criticisms. Much added light has dawned upon me on the subject, and I am convinced overwhelmingly that we are right. My prayer is that you and others may be delivered from the bondage of your supposed liberty and come into the glorious freedom of full "obedience of faith" in the perfect will of God. Sincerely in Christ Jesus, -
A. S. Copley

This says it all---it is a heart issue.

This says it all---it is a heart issue.

It's a bunch of baloney.  Nowhere in God's Word does it say that Abram tithed in faith.  The Word doesn't tell us WHY Abram tithed, and without knowing WHY, we can't just make up stories and then go with it.

A one-time example of Abram giving a tenth.  OF WAR SPOILS, not on his own income.  And kept NOTHING for himself.

It is nothing but manipulation of God's Word to say that we are following Abraham's example of faith when we tithe today.  Since the Word doesn't say anything about him tithing in faith, no one has a right to add the word faith and teach it as though it is truth.

This is the problem with religion today.  Man is taking God's Word and adding to it, subtracting from it, and turning it into man's word instead of God's Word.

I believe what the scriptures say, not what some pastor says.

Everything Abraham did was out of his deep faith and trust in God, and his intimate relationship with Him.

I believe what God says in His whole word, not slamming the door shut on certain promises that are offered to us concerning the tithe---He asks us to test him in it. When you do, you will see His word is good, good, good---all the time.

Everything Abraham did was out of his deep faith and trust in God, and his intimate relationship with Him.

Another blanket statement with no Biblical truth.

To be sure, Abraham had his moments of failure and sin (as we all do), and the Bible doesn't shrink from describing them in detail. We know of at least two occasions in which Abraham lied regarding his relationship to Sarah in order to protect himself in potentially hostile lands (Genesis 12:10-20; 20:1-18). In both these incidents, God protects and blesses Abraham despite his lack of faith. We also know that the frustration of not having a child got to Abraham and Sarah as they concoct a plan to take matters into their own hands with Sarah's servant, Hagar (Genesis 16:1-15). The birth of Ishmael not only demonstrates the futility of Abraham's folly and lack of faith, but also the grace of God (in allowing the birth to take place and even blessing Ishmael). The 'Father of the Faithful' had his moments of doubt and disbelief, yet he is still exalted among men as an example of the faithful life.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/life-Abraham.html

EVERY SINGLE THING that Abraham did was not because of faith.  There is NOTHING in God's Word that says Abraham tithed out of faith.  It only appears in man's word.

If you want to believe what man teaches over what the scriptures actually say, so be it.  I will stick with the scriptures.

Quote from: garyarnold on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:22:14
Everything Abraham did was out of his deep faith and trust in God, and his intimate relationship with Him.

Another blanket statement with no Biblical truth.

To be sure, Abraham had his moments of failure and sin (as we all do), and the Bible doesn't shrink from describing them in detail. We know of at least two occasions in which Abraham lied regarding his relationship to Sarah in order to protect himself in potentially hostile lands (Genesis 12:10-20; 20:1-18). In both these incidents, God protects and blesses Abraham despite his lack of faith. We also know that the frustration of not having a child got to Abraham and Sarah as they concoct a plan to take matters into their own hands with Sarah's servant, Hagar (Genesis 16:1-15). The birth of Ishmael not only demonstrates the futility of Abraham's folly and lack of faith, but also the grace of God (in allowing the birth to take place and even blessing Ishmael). The 'Father of the Faithful' had his moments of doubt and disbelief, yet he is still exalted among men as an example of the faithful life.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/life-Abraham.html

EVERY SINGLE THING that Abraham did was not because of faith.  There is NOTHING in God's Word that says Abraham tithed out of faith.  It only appears in man's word.

If you want to believe what man teaches over what the scriptures actually say, so be it.  I will stick with the scriptures.

Abraham's faith is held up for us to emulate. Nothing erroneous in that. It is obvious that some are willing to say anything to gain a foothold in this discussion.

Not gonna do it.

The faith that Abram demonstrated in Genesis 14 is that he kept NOTHING for himself.  That is where Abram shows his faith, if anywhere in the story, because by keeping nothing for himself, he placed his faith that God would provide.  Giving a tenth in that story says nothing about faith, and to come to that conclusion isn't logical.

Quote from: garyarnold on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:32:12
The faith that Abram demonstrated in Genesis 14 is that he kept NOTHING for himself.  That is where Abram shows his faith, if anywhere in the story, because by keeping nothing for himself, he placed his faith that God would provide.  Giving a tenth in that story says nothing about faith, and to come to that conclusion isn't logical.

By Jove, I think you've got it!

100% is God's! Amen!

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 15:49:40
As per the OP:

QuoteIf Abram and tithing are legal twins, where are Abraham's grace offerings? Understand, we are not following Moses, but Abraham. We are not under law in observing tithing. As in all other acts of obedience to God, we rejoice to know His will and take great pleasure in doing it. We are not at all under bondage. We are happy to follow in the footsteps of "the friend of God." If you object to us gathering some details from Moses words, we cite you to I Corinthians 9:8-11. "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?" Paul's readers were not in the place of legality. "Those things were written for our admonition." We derive spiritual benefits from Old Testament writings without being in bondage to anything or any person. The testimonies of saints who tithe are profoundly interesting and instructive. They receive spiritual blessings thru paying tithes. They do not look at this gracious rite thru Moses eyes, but thru the eyes of Abraham. I call it a gracious rite because it was instituted under grace. If our father in the faith gave the tenth and the prototype accepted it, how much more should we, the children in faith, give the tenth to the great High Priest? Beloved Brother, I praise My God for the privilege of answering your criticisms. Much added light has dawned upon me on the subject, and I am convinced overwhelmingly that we are right. My prayer is that you and others may be delivered from the bondage of your supposed liberty and come into the glorious freedom of full "obedience of faith" in the perfect will of God. Sincerely in Christ Jesus, -
A. S. Copley

This says it all---it is a heart issue.

When did a heart issue (or a rhema word) start being a law that we are accountable to?

Peace

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:44:55

Quote from: garyarnold on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:32:12
The faith that Abram demonstrated in Genesis 14 is that he kept NOTHING for himself.  That is where Abram shows his faith, if anywhere in the story, because by keeping nothing for himself, he placed his faith that God would provide.  Giving a tenth in that story says nothing about faith, and to come to that conclusion isn't logical.

By Jove, I think you've got it!

100% is God's! Amen!

Make up your mind !  What part of your money are you stealing from God if you fail to put it on the Church's plate?  Is it 10% or 100%?

Peace

Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Abraham was not under law, so why did Abraham give a tenth part of all to the type of Christ in Hebrews 7:2, and is not Christ's priesthood forever after the order of Melchisedec according to Psalms 110:4 ?

Abraham was not under law, so why did Abraham give a tenth part of all to the type of Christ in Hebrews 7:2, and is not Christ's priesthood forever after the order of Melchisedec according to Psalms 110:4 ?

Biblical historians say that during the days of Abraham, it was CUSTOM to give a tenth of the war spoils to the king.  But the Word doesn't tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth, and we shouldn't just make up a reason.

Christ's priesthood is after the ORDER OF Melchizedec - order; i.e. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.  In Hebrews 7:18, we see that the Levitical priesthood was disannulled.  That means it is treated as though it was never there.  It is taken out of the picture.  Therefore, we go from Melchizedec's priesthood to that of Christ with no priesthood in the middle.

Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood along with tithing to support the priesthood.  Once annulled, it is treated as though there never was a Levitical priesthood, and never was a tithing law to support the priesthood.

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 19:03:15

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 15:49:40
As per the OP:

QuoteIf Abram and tithing are legal twins, where are Abraham's grace offerings? Understand, we are not following Moses, but Abraham. We are not under law in observing tithing. As in all other acts of obedience to God, we rejoice to know His will and take great pleasure in doing it. We are not at all under bondage. We are happy to follow in the footsteps of "the friend of God." If you object to us gathering some details from Moses words, we cite you to I Corinthians 9:8-11. "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?" Paul's readers were not in the place of legality. "Those things were written for our admonition." We derive spiritual benefits from Old Testament writings without being in bondage to anything or any person. The testimonies of saints who tithe are profoundly interesting and instructive. They receive spiritual blessings thru paying tithes. They do not look at this gracious rite thru Moses eyes, but thru the eyes of Abraham. I call it a gracious rite because it was instituted under grace. If our father in the faith gave the tenth and the prototype accepted it, how much more should we, the children in faith, give the tenth to the great High Priest? Beloved Brother, I praise My God for the privilege of answering your criticisms. Much added light has dawned upon me on the subject, and I am convinced overwhelmingly that we are right. My prayer is that you and others may be delivered from the bondage of your supposed liberty and come into the glorious freedom of full "obedience of faith" in the perfect will of God. Sincerely in Christ Jesus, -
A. S. Copley

This says it all---it is a heart issue.

When did a heart issue (or a rhema word) start being a law that we are accountable to?

Peace

When God tells you to do something you had better do it. We are accountable to Him. It is all a heart issue. the way people denounce tithing and tithers is disgusting, and not at all Christ-like. THAT, friend, is a heart issue, as visible as a festering boil.

Quote from: garyarnold on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 20:12:52
Abraham was not under law, so why did Abraham give a tenth part of all to the type of Christ in Hebrews 7:2, and is not Christ's priesthood forever after the order of Melchisedec according to Psalms 110:4 ?

Biblical historians say that during the days of Abraham, it was CUSTOM to give a tenth of the war spoils to the king.  But the Word doesn't tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth, and we shouldn't just make up a reason.

Christ's priesthood is after the ORDER OF Melchizedec - order; i.e. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.  In Hebrews 7:18, we see that the Levitical priesthood was disannulled.  That means it is treated as though it was never there.  It is taken out of the picture.  Therefore, we go from Melchizedec's priesthood to that of Christ with no priesthood in the middle.

Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood along with tithing to support the priesthood.  Once annulled, it is treated as though there never was a Levitical priesthood, and never was a tithing law to support the priesthood.

Again discounting Melchizedec as a mere king, just to make an argument against tithing

Seems to me if your argument was Spirit led, you would never try to make your point by denigrating Melchizedec

But alas...

It is human to sometimes say or do anything for the sake of an "X" in the win column

Sometimes we need to ask ourselves what it is we're winning