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Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Who are the Gentiles that Paul is referring to?

Note: If you have no supporting evidence (SCRIPTURE) for your claims, you will be wasting your time by responding.  I am tired of having people respond with their Scriptureless opinions, and I imagine a lot of others are tired of that too.

Gentiles -- From Strong's the word translated as Gentiles is the Greek word ethnos.

G1484

έθνος


ethnos

eth'-nos

Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

In the context of Romans 11 the Gentiles are any and all non-Jewish people.

Quote from: Jimmy on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 14:58:45
Gentiles -- From Strong's the word translated as Gentiles is the Greek word ethnos.

G1484

έθνος


ethnos

eth'-nos

Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

In the context of Romans 11 the Gentiles are any and all non-Jewish people.

Jimmy, I don't mean to burst your bubble, but what you have done is to provide an opinion of another man to prove your case.  The man that you are using for evidence is James Strong.  He is not inspired.  My only authority is to Scripture.  Do you have Scripture (the real evidence) to prove the position that you have surrendered to James Strong?

Please try again...half of the reason for this post is to get us to look to Scripture for our understandings and not to base our theology on what other UNINSPIRED men have said.

Quote from: EdwardGoodie on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 17:02:57

Quote from: Jimmy on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 14:58:45
Gentiles -- From Strong's the word translated as Gentiles is the Greek word ethnos.

G1484

έθνος


ethnos

eth'-nos

Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

In the context of Romans 11 the Gentiles are any and all non-Jewish people.

Jimmy, I don't mean to burst your bubble, but what you have done is to provide an opinion of another man to prove your case.  The man that you are using for evidence is James Strong.  He is not inspired.  My only authority is to Scripture.  Do you have Scripture (the real evidence) to prove the position that you have surrendered to James Strong?

Please try again...half of the reason for this post is to get us to look to Scripture for our understandings and not to base our theology on what other UNINSPIRED men have said.

Jimmy gave you the only answer that can be given. Gentile is only mentioned twice in the bible.

Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Any other answer is going to be someones opinion. Right?

Quote from: EDEN2004 on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 20:11:37

Jimmy gave you the only answer that can be given. Gentile is only mentioned twice in the bible.

Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Any other answer is going to be someones opinion. Right?

I guess I was hoping for more individual study on this forum.  Eden, you forgot about the plural form of Gentile.  Here are some NT verses where THAT word occurs:  

Matthew 4:15; 6:32; 10:5,18; 12:18,21; 20:19,25; Mark 10:33,42; Luke 2:32; 18:32; 21:24; 22:25; John 7:35; Acts 4:27; 7:45; 9:15; 10:45; 11:1,18; 13:42,46,47,48; 14:2,5,27; 15:3,7,12,14,17,19,23; 18:6; 21:11,19,21,25; 22:21; 26:17,20,23; 28:28; Romans 1:13; 2:14,24; 3:9,29; 9:24,30; 11:11,12,13,25; 15:9,10,11,12,16,18,27; 16:4; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 10:20,32; 12:2,13; Galatians 2:2,8,12,14,15; 3:14; Ephesians 2:11; 3:1,6,8; 4:17; Colossians 1:27; 1 Thessalonians 2:16; 4:5; 1 Timothy 2:7; 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:11; 4:17; 1 Peter 2:12; 4:3; 3 John 1:7; Revelation 11:2;

The above verses were found in 91 different passages with a total of 94 matches from the KJV.  Other translations will vary, of course.

Now, searching Strong's G1484 (from which Gentile or Gentiles originates), we find the following list of NT passages:

Matthew 4:15; 6:32; 10:5,18; 12:18,21; 20:19,25; 21:43; 24:7,9,14; 25:32; 28:19; Mark 10:33,42; 11:17; 13:8,10; Luke 2:32; 7:5; 12:30; 18:32; 21:10,24,25; 22:25; 23:2; 24:47; John 11:48,50,51,52; 18:35; Acts 2:5; 4:25,27; 7:7,45; 8:9; 9:15; 10:22,35,45; 11:1,18; 13:19,42,46,47,48; 14:2,5,16,27; 15:3,7,12,14,17,19,23; 17:26; 18:6; 21:11,19,21,25; 22:21; 24:2,10,17; 26:4,17,20,23; 28:19,28; Romans 1:5,13; 2:14,24; 3:29; 4:17,18; 9:24,30; 10:19; 11:11,12,13,25; 15:9,10,11,12,16,18,27; 16:4,26; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 10:20; 12:2; 2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 1:16; 2:2,8,9,12,14,15; 3:8,14; Ephesians 2:11; 3:1,6,8; 4:17; Colossians 1:27; 1 Thessalonians 2:16; 4:5; 1 Timothy 2:7; 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:11; 4:17; 1 Peter 2:9,12; 4:3; 3 John 1:7; Revelation 2:26; 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:2,9,18; 12:5; 13:7; 14:6,8; 15:4; 16:19; 17:15; 18:3,23; 19:15; 20:3,8; 21:24,26; 22:2;


The above verses were found in 152 different passages with a total of 164 matches from the KJV.  Other translations will vary, of course.

The next "trick" would be to see how the translators differentiated with G1484 and why.

Another  "trick" is to see how "Gentile" was used in the Old Testament and why...

I believe that after having done all the "tricks," one could form a biblically based interpretation relying solely upon the Scriptures which gives rise to that opinion.  Wouldn't you agree?

Here is a block of Old Testament passages from the Septuagint based upon a Strong's number search:

Genesis 10:5,20,31,32; 12:2; 14:1,5,9; 15:14; 17:4,5,6,16,20,27; 18:18; 20:4; 21:13,18; 22:18; 25:16,23; 26:4; 27:29; 28:3; 35:11; 36:40; 46:3; 48:4,19; 49:10; Exodus 1:9; 9:24; 15:14; 19:5,6; 21:8; 23:11,18,22,27; 32:10; 33:13,16; 34:10,24; Leviticus 18:24,28; 19:16; 20:2,23,24,26; 21:1; 25:44; 26:33,38,45; Numbers 13:28,31; 14:12,15; 21:18; 23:9; 24:7,8,20; 25:15; Deuteronomy 1:28; 2:10,21,25; 4:6,7,8,19,27,33,34,38; 6:14; 7:1,6,7,14,16,17,19,22; 8:20; 9:1,4,5,14; 10:15; 11:23; 12:29,30; 13:7; 14:2; 15:6; 17:14; 18:9,14; 19:1; 20:15,16; 26:5,19; 28:1,10,12,32,33,36,37,49,50,64,65; 29:16,18,24; 30:1,3; 31:3; 32:8,21,28,43; 33:17,19; Joshua 4:24; 23:3,4,7,9,12,13; 24:4,17,18,33; Judges 2:20,21,23; 3:1; 4:2,13,16; 1 Samuel 8:5,20; 2 Samuel 7:23; 22:44,50; 1 Kings 11:2; 14:24; 18:10; 2 Kings 6:18; 16:3; 17:8,11,15,26,29,32,33,41; 18:33; 19:12,17; 21:2,9; 1 Chronicles 14:17; 16:20,26,28,31,35; 17:21; 18:11; 29:11; 2 Chronicles 7:20; 15:6; 20:6; 28:3; 32:7,13,14,15,17,23; 33:2,9; 36:14; Ezra 4:10; 6:21; 9:7,11; Nehemiah 5:8,9,17; 6:6,16; 13:26; Esther 1:3,5,11; 3:8,11,12,14; 4:1,11; 8:17; 10:3; Job 12:23; 17:6; 34:29; 41:6; Psalms 2:1,8; 9:5,11,15,17,19,20; 10:16; 18:43,49; 22:27,28; 33:10,12; 43:1; 44:2,11,14; 46:6,10; 47:1,3,8; 49:1; 57:9; 59:5,8; 65:7; 66:7,8; 67:2,4; 68:30; 72:11,17; 78:55; 79:1,6,10; 80:8; 82:8; 83:4; 86:9; 89:50; 94:10; 96:3,5,7,10; 98:2; 102:15; 105:1,13,44; 106:5,27,34,35,41,47; 108:3; 110:6; 111:6; 113:4; 115:2,4; 117:1; 118:10; 126:2; 135:10,15; 147:20; 149:7; Proverbs 11:26; 14:28,34; 24:24; 26:3; 28:15,17; 29:9,18; 30:26,31; Isaiah 1:4; 2:2,3,4; 5:26; 8:9,19; 9:1; 10:6,7,13; 11:10,12; 12:4; 13:4; 14:2,6,9,12,18,26,32; 16:8; 17:12,13; 18:2,7; 23:3; 24:13; 25:6,7; 29:7,8; 30:6,28; 33:3,8,12; 34:1,2; 36:18,20; 37:12,26; 40:15,17; 41:2,5,28; 42:1,4,6; 43:9; 45:1,20; 49:1,6,7,8,22; 51:4,5; 52:5,10,15; 54:3; 55:4,5; 56:7; 60:2,3,5,11,12,16,22; 61:6,9,11; 62:2,10; 63:3; 64:2; 65:1; 66:8,12,18,19,20; Jeremiah 1:5,10; 2:11; 3:17,19; 4:2,7,16; 5:9,15,29; 6:18,22; 7:27; 9:16,26; 10:2,3,25; 12:17; 14:22; 16:19; 18:7,8,9,13; 22:8; 25:9,11,12,15,17,31,32; 26:6; 27:8,11; 28:11,14; 31:7,10,37; 36:2; 44:8; 46:12,28; 48:2; 49:14,15,31,34,36; 50:2,3,9,12,23,41,46; 51:7,20,27,28,41,44,58; Lamentations 1:1,3,10; 2:9; 4:15,17,20; Ezekiel 4:13; 5:5,6,7,8,15; 6:8,9; 11:16,17; 12:15,16; 16:14; 19:4,8; 20:9,14,22,23,32; 22:4,15,16; 23:30; 25:7,8; 26:2,3,5,7,16; 27:33,36; 28:7,19,25; 29:12,13,15; 30:3,11,23,26; 31:6,11,12,16; 32:2,9,10,12,16,18; 34:13,28,29; 35:10; 36:3,4,5,6,7,13,14,15,19,20,21,22,23,24,30,36; 37:21,22,28; 38:6,8,9,12,15,16,22,23; 39:4,7,21,23,27,28; Daniel 8:22; 11:23; 12:1; Hosea 8:8,10; 9:17; Joel 1:6; 2:17,19; 3:2,8,9,11,12; Amos 6:1,14; 9:9,12; Obadiah 1:1,2,15,16; Micah 4:2,3,7,11,13; 5:7,8,15; 7:16; Nahum 3:3,4,5; Habakkuk 1:6,17; 2:5,8,13; 3:6,12; Zephaniah 2:1,9,11; 3:8; Haggai 2:7,14,22; Zechariah 1:15,21; 2:8,11; 7:14; 8:13,22,23; 9:10; 12:3,9; 14:2,3,16,18,19; Malachi 1:11,14; 2:9; 3:9,12;


An astounding 626 passages with 696 matches!!  Again, one would have to determine each and every usage and how the translation varies.  So, I would say that there is a tremendous amount of Scripture in which to determine Paul's usage of the word Gentiles.  Wouldn't you agree?

Sure beats a quick Strong's look-up, right?  But that is what most Bible students are generally prone to do.  Understanding how a passage of Scripture is to be interpreted takes a lot of work!  Most have no desire to undertake such a task and therefore are prone to rely upon what others supposedly have determined.  You might be surprised as to how many great scholars have just taken the opinion of those who have gone before, and so on, and so on, and so on down the line.  Pretty soon it becomes an infallible tradition...which is bad exegesis, of course.

Another thing about getting a proper interpretation...Most will open their contemporary present-day dictionaries to look up a word found in the Bible.  That is a VERY POOR method to understand the meanings of words.  Doing it that way means you are assigning 20th century definitions (for the most part) to words written thousands of years ago.  The meanings may not be the same.  One must take a look at all the Scriptures where the word in question is used.

For example, take the word "elements" (Strong's 4747) from 2 Peter 3...

How does the Apostle Paul use that word? Here are the five verses in which it is used:

Galatians 4:3 -  Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Galatians 4:9 -  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8 -  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:20 -  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Hebrews 5:12 -  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

A quick look into each verse's context will reveal that Paul is speaking in regard to old covenant matters, and in particular, the Law.  You will also easily arrive at the determination that the word "world," if thought to mean the planet Earth, does NOT FIT at all.

Now, does Paul's usage match the majority opinion of "primordial constituents of the universe" in 2 Peter 3?  Not likely, especially when Peter quotes Paul in regard to these eschatological things:

2 Peter 3:15-16 - And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;  
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.  

Bible study is not a matter of looking at a Strong's definition or picking up a lexicon, or checking out our present-day dictionary.

I apologize for the length of this post and thanks to those who made it this far...  

Does anyone know if attachments can be added to posts?  And if so, how is that done.  I was looking for a "paper clip" icon and could not see it...

Quote from: EdwardGoodie on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 20:52:58

Quote from: EDEN2004 on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 20:11:37

Jimmy gave you the only answer that can be given. Gentile is only mentioned twice in the bible.

Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Any other answer is going to be someones opinion. Right?

I guess I was hoping for more individual study on this forum.  Eden, you forgot about the plural form of Gentile.  Here are some NT verses where THAT word occurs:  

Matthew 4:15; 6:32; 10:5,18; 12:18,21; 20:19,25; Mark 10:33,42; Luke 2:32; 18:32; 21:24; 22:25; John 7:35; Acts 4:27; 7:45; 9:15; 10:45; 11:1,18; 13:42,46,47,48; 14:2,5,27; 15:3,7,12,14,17,19,23; 18:6; 21:11,19,21,25; 22:21; 26:17,20,23; 28:28; Romans 1:13; 2:14,24; 3:9,29; 9:24,30; 11:11,12,13,25; 15:9,10,11,12,16,18,27; 16:4; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 10:20,32; 12:2,13; Galatians 2:2,8,12,14,15; 3:14; Ephesians 2:11; 3:1,6,8; 4:17; Colossians 1:27; 1 Thessalonians 2:16; 4:5; 1 Timothy 2:7; 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:11; 4:17; 1 Peter 2:12; 4:3; 3 John 1:7; Revelation 11:2;

The above verses were found in 91 different passages with a total of 94 matches from the KJV.  Other translations will vary, of course.

Now, searching Strong's G1484 (from which Gentile or Gentiles originates), we find the following list of NT passages:

Matthew 4:15; 6:32; 10:5,18; 12:18,21; 20:19,25; 21:43; 24:7,9,14; 25:32; 28:19; Mark 10:33,42; 11:17; 13:8,10; Luke 2:32; 7:5; 12:30; 18:32; 21:10,24,25; 22:25; 23:2; 24:47; John 11:48,50,51,52; 18:35; Acts 2:5; 4:25,27; 7:7,45; 8:9; 9:15; 10:22,35,45; 11:1,18; 13:19,42,46,47,48; 14:2,5,16,27; 15:3,7,12,14,17,19,23; 17:26; 18:6; 21:11,19,21,25; 22:21; 24:2,10,17; 26:4,17,20,23; 28:19,28; Romans 1:5,13; 2:14,24; 3:29; 4:17,18; 9:24,30; 10:19; 11:11,12,13,25; 15:9,10,11,12,16,18,27; 16:4,26; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 10:20; 12:2; 2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 1:16; 2:2,8,9,12,14,15; 3:8,14; Ephesians 2:11; 3:1,6,8; 4:17; Colossians 1:27; 1 Thessalonians 2:16; 4:5; 1 Timothy 2:7; 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:11; 4:17; 1 Peter 2:9,12; 4:3; 3 John 1:7; Revelation 2:26; 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:2,9,18; 12:5; 13:7; 14:6,8; 15:4; 16:19; 17:15; 18:3,23; 19:15; 20:3,8; 21:24,26; 22:2;


The above verses were found in 152 different passages with a total of 164 matches from the KJV.  Other translations will vary, of course.

The next "trick" would be to see how the translators differentiated with G1484 and why.

Another  "trick" is to see how "Gentile" was used in the Old Testament and why...

I believe that after having done all the "tricks," one could form a biblically based interpretation relying solely upon the Scriptures which gives rise to that opinion.  Wouldn't you agree?

Here is a block of Old Testament passages from the Septuagint based upon a Strong's number search:

Genesis 10:5,20,31,32; 12:2; 14:1,5,9; 15:14; 17:4,5,6,16,20,27; 18:18; 20:4; 21:13,18; 22:18; 25:16,23; 26:4; 27:29; 28:3; 35:11; 36:40; 46:3; 48:4,19; 49:10; Exodus 1:9; 9:24; 15:14; 19:5,6; 21:8; 23:11,18,22,27; 32:10; 33:13,16; 34:10,24; Leviticus 18:24,28; 19:16; 20:2,23,24,26; 21:1; 25:44; 26:33,38,45; Numbers 13:28,31; 14:12,15; 21:18; 23:9; 24:7,8,20; 25:15; Deuteronomy 1:28; 2:10,21,25; 4:6,7,8,19,27,33,34,38; 6:14; 7:1,6,7,14,16,17,19,22; 8:20; 9:1,4,5,14; 10:15; 11:23; 12:29,30; 13:7; 14:2; 15:6; 17:14; 18:9,14; 19:1; 20:15,16; 26:5,19; 28:1,10,12,32,33,36,37,49,50,64,65; 29:16,18,24; 30:1,3; 31:3; 32:8,21,28,43; 33:17,19; Joshua 4:24; 23:3,4,7,9,12,13; 24:4,17,18,33; Judges 2:20,21,23; 3:1; 4:2,13,16; 1 Samuel 8:5,20; 2 Samuel 7:23; 22:44,50; 1 Kings 11:2; 14:24; 18:10; 2 Kings 6:18; 16:3; 17:8,11,15,26,29,32,33,41; 18:33; 19:12,17; 21:2,9; 1 Chronicles 14:17; 16:20,26,28,31,35; 17:21; 18:11; 29:11; 2 Chronicles 7:20; 15:6; 20:6; 28:3; 32:7,13,14,15,17,23; 33:2,9; 36:14; Ezra 4:10; 6:21; 9:7,11; Nehemiah 5:8,9,17; 6:6,16; 13:26; Esther 1:3,5,11; 3:8,11,12,14; 4:1,11; 8:17; 10:3; Job 12:23; 17:6; 34:29; 41:6; Psalms 2:1,8; 9:5,11,15,17,19,20; 10:16; 18:43,49; 22:27,28; 33:10,12; 43:1; 44:2,11,14; 46:6,10; 47:1,3,8; 49:1; 57:9; 59:5,8; 65:7; 66:7,8; 67:2,4; 68:30; 72:11,17; 78:55; 79:1,6,10; 80:8; 82:8; 83:4; 86:9; 89:50; 94:10; 96:3,5,7,10; 98:2; 102:15; 105:1,13,44; 106:5,27,34,35,41,47; 108:3; 110:6; 111:6; 113:4; 115:2,4; 117:1; 118:10; 126:2; 135:10,15; 147:20; 149:7; Proverbs 11:26; 14:28,34; 24:24; 26:3; 28:15,17; 29:9,18; 30:26,31; Isaiah 1:4; 2:2,3,4; 5:26; 8:9,19; 9:1; 10:6,7,13; 11:10,12; 12:4; 13:4; 14:2,6,9,12,18,26,32; 16:8; 17:12,13; 18:2,7; 23:3; 24:13; 25:6,7; 29:7,8; 30:6,28; 33:3,8,12; 34:1,2; 36:18,20; 37:12,26; 40:15,17; 41:2,5,28; 42:1,4,6; 43:9; 45:1,20; 49:1,6,7,8,22; 51:4,5; 52:5,10,15; 54:3; 55:4,5; 56:7; 60:2,3,5,11,12,16,22; 61:6,9,11; 62:2,10; 63:3; 64:2; 65:1; 66:8,12,18,19,20; Jeremiah 1:5,10; 2:11; 3:17,19; 4:2,7,16; 5:9,15,29; 6:18,22; 7:27; 9:16,26; 10:2,3,25; 12:17; 14:22; 16:19; 18:7,8,9,13; 22:8; 25:9,11,12,15,17,31,32; 26:6; 27:8,11; 28:11,14; 31:7,10,37; 36:2; 44:8; 46:12,28; 48:2; 49:14,15,31,34,36; 50:2,3,9,12,23,41,46; 51:7,20,27,28,41,44,58; Lamentations 1:1,3,10; 2:9; 4:15,17,20; Ezekiel 4:13; 5:5,6,7,8,15; 6:8,9; 11:16,17; 12:15,16; 16:14; 19:4,8; 20:9,14,22,23,32; 22:4,15,16; 23:30; 25:7,8; 26:2,3,5,7,16; 27:33,36; 28:7,19,25; 29:12,13,15; 30:3,11,23,26; 31:6,11,12,16; 32:2,9,10,12,16,18; 34:13,28,29; 35:10; 36:3,4,5,6,7,13,14,15,19,20,21,22,23,24,30,36; 37:21,22,28; 38:6,8,9,12,15,16,22,23; 39:4,7,21,23,27,28; Daniel 8:22; 11:23; 12:1; Hosea 8:8,10; 9:17; Joel 1:6; 2:17,19; 3:2,8,9,11,12; Amos 6:1,14; 9:9,12; Obadiah 1:1,2,15,16; Micah 4:2,3,7,11,13; 5:7,8,15; 7:16; Nahum 3:3,4,5; Habakkuk 1:6,17; 2:5,8,13; 3:6,12; Zephaniah 2:1,9,11; 3:8; Haggai 2:7,14,22; Zechariah 1:15,21; 2:8,11; 7:14; 8:13,22,23; 9:10; 12:3,9; 14:2,3,16,18,19; Malachi 1:11,14; 2:9; 3:9,12;


An astounding 626 passages with 696 matches!!  Again, one would have to determine each and every usage and how the translation varies.  So, I would say that there is a tremendous amount of Scripture in which to determine Paul's usage of the word Gentiles.  Wouldn't you agree?

Sure beats a quick Strong's look-up, right?  But that is what most Bible students are generally prone to do.  Understanding how a passage of Scripture is to be interpreted takes a lot of work!  Most have no desire to undertake such a task and therefore are prone to rely upon what others supposedly have determined.  You might be surprised as to how many great scholars have just taken the opinion of those who have gone before, and so on, and so on, and so on down the line.  Pretty soon it becomes an infallible tradition...which is bad exegesis, of course.

Another thing about getting a proper interpretation...Most will open their contemporary present-day dictionaries to look up a word found in the Bible.  That is a VERY POOR method to understand the meanings of words.  Doing it that way means you are assigning 20th century definitions (for the most part) to words written thousands of years ago.  The meanings may not be the same.  One must take a look at all the Scriptures where the word in question is used.

For example, take the word "elements" (Strong's 4747) from 2 Peter 3...

How does the Apostle Paul use that word? Here are the five verses in which it is used:

Galatians 4:3 -  Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Galatians 4:9 -  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8 -  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:20 -  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Hebrews 5:12 -  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

A quick look into each verse's context will reveal that Paul is speaking in regard to old covenant matters, and in particular, the Law.  You will also easily arrive at the determination that the word "world," if thought to mean the planet Earth, does NOT FIT at all.

Now, does Paul's usage match the commonly understanding of the primordial constituents of the universe in 2 Peter 3?  Not likely, especially when Peter quotes Paul in regard to these eschatological things:

2 Peter 3:15-16 - And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;  
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.  

Bible study is not a matter of looking at a Strong's definition or picking up a lexicon, or checking out our present-day dictionary.

I apologize for the length of this post and thanks to those who made it this far... 

Does anyone know if attachments can be added to posts?  And if so, how is that done.  I was looking for a "paper clip" icon and could not see it...

You are right my friend, I did forget about the plural.

Hi EdwardGoodie
Welcome to the forum, I'll bite!

These are the heathen-nations we are commanded to rule over:

Deuteronomy 7:1 KJV
1.  When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2.  And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3.  Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

Paul recounts this warning:

Acts 13:16-19 KJV
16.  Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17.  The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18.  And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19.  And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

And the man of the Gergesenes-Gadarenes had "married" himself to these heathen, Gentiles, and "Girgashites" just as was the prevalent practice in the days of Noah before the flood:

Matthew 8:28 KJV
28.  And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, (GSN#1086 Gergesenos) there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Original Strong's Ref. #1086
Romanized  Gergesenos
Pronounced gher-ghes-ay-nos'
of Hebrew origin [HSN1622]; a Gergesene (i.e. Girgashite)
or one of the aborigines of Palestine:
KJV--Gergesene.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" had come in[to] him: And the Master Yeshua did bind up the strong man, broke up his household, and healed the one who was in blindness and under the bondage of a cruel master. And seeing him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: they were afraid. 

Hi daq.  Thanks for the welcome!  Call me stupid or whatever, but I don't see the point you are attempting to make.  You say "these" (I assume the Gentiles in Romans 11:25) refer to the heathen nations we are to rule over.

Then you quote Deut 7 speaking of these seven nations.  Then the puzzling part.  You provide proof from Acts 13 that these same nations were DESTROYED.  How can we rule rule over something that does not exist?

I haven't a clue as to what you were trying to say in your last paragraph and don't know why you said, "The "fullness of the Gentiles" had come in[to] him:"

Kinda lost in your thinking here.  Sorry.

How can I add an attachment?

Quote from: daq on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 22:50:40
Hi EdwardGoodie
Welcome to the forum, I'll bite!

These are the heathen-nations we are commanded to rule over:

Deuteronomy 7:1 KJV
1.  When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2.  And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3.  Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

Paul recounts this warning:

Acts 13:16-19 KJV
16.  Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17.  The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18.  And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19.  And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

And the man of the Gergesenes-Gadarenes had "married" himself to these heathen, Gentiles, and "Girgashites" just as was the prevalent practice in the days of Noah before the flood:

Matthew 8:28 KJV
28.  And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, (GSN#1086 Gergesenos) there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Original Strong's Ref. #1086
Romanized  Gergesenos
Pronounced gher-ghes-ay-nos'
of Hebrew origin [HSN1622]; a Gergesene (i.e. Girgashite)
or one of the aborigines of Palestine:
KJV--Gergesene.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" had come in[to] him: And the Master Yeshua did bind up the strong man, broke up his household, and healed the one who was in blindness and under the bondage of a cruel master. And seeing him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: they were afraid. 

Quote from: EdwardGoodie on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 14:50:38
Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Who are the Gentiles that Paul is referring to?

Note: If you have no supporting evidence (SCRIPTURE) for your claims, you will be wasting your time by responding.  I am tired of having people respond with their Scriptureless opinions, and I imagine a lot of others are tired of that too.

So what is your point? Is this some sort of weird test of the ability to find all the instances where the word "gentile" appears.  Or do you actually have something to say about the Gentiles that Paul is refering to in Rom 11:25 other than the meaning of the Greek word ethnos?

So meaning no disrespect; but, if you would please, tell us Who are the Gentiles that Paul is referring to?

Note: If you have no supporting evidence (SCRIPTURE) for your claims, you will be wasting your time by responding.

Quote from: Jimmy on Thu Oct 27, 2011 - 10:35:32

So what is your point? Is this some sort of weird test of the ability to find all the instances where the word "gentile" appears.  Or do you actually have something to say about the Gentiles that Paul is refering to in Rom 11:25 other than the meaning of the Greek word ethnos?

So meaning no disrespect; but, if you would please, tell us Who are the Gentiles that Paul is referring to?

Note: If you have no supporting evidence (SCRIPTURE) for your claims, you will be wasting your time by responding.

Jimmy,

I will definitely get to that.  Rather than to recopy a bunch of stuff (which will take a lot of time), I have repeatedly asked if someone knows how I can attach a document.  No one has offered to help me here.

So, if I can't attach a document, it will take time.  Please be patient.  But in the meantime, I have asked that people here conduct their own study and support their claims with Scripture regarding the Gentiles of Romans 11:25.  I believed we have just ASSUMED who this people group is without much biblical thought...

What I find interesting is that based upon the majority of people who hold to this assumed view there is little Scripture coming forth to support such a view.  I was hoping that a few people here would be able to provide me with the biblical support needed to crush my view...

Quote from: EdwardGoodie on Thu Oct 27, 2011 - 10:10:46
Hi daq.  Thanks for the welcome!  Call me stupid or whatever, but I don't see the point you are attempting to make.  You say "these" (I assume the Gentiles in Romans 11:25) refer to the heathen nations we are to rule over.

Then you quote Deut 7 speaking of these seven nations.  Then the puzzling part.  You provide proof from Acts 13 that these same nations were DESTROYED.  How can we rule rule over something that does not exist?

I haven't a clue as to what you were trying to say in your last paragraph and don't know why you said, "The "fullness of the Gentiles" had come in[to] him:"

Kinda lost in your thinking here.  Sorry.

How can I add an attachment?

Quote from: daq on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 22:50:40
Hi EdwardGoodie
Welcome to the forum, I'll bite!

These are the heathen-nations we are commanded to rule over:

Deuteronomy 7:1 KJV
1.  When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2.  And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3.  Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

Paul recounts this warning:

Acts 13:16-19 KJV
16.  Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17.  The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18.  And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19.  And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

And the man of the Gergesenes-Gadarenes had "married" himself to these heathen, Gentiles, and "Girgashites" just as was the prevalent practice in the days of Noah before the flood:

Matthew 8:28 KJV
28.  And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, (GSN#1086 Gergesenos) there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Original Strong's Ref. #1086
Romanized  Gergesenos
Pronounced gher-ghes-ay-nos'
of Hebrew origin [HSN1622]; a Gergesene (i.e. Girgashite)
or one of the aborigines of Palestine:
KJV--Gergesene.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" had come in[to] him: And the Master Yeshua did bind up the strong man, broke up his household, and healed the one who was in blindness and under the bondage of a cruel master. And seeing him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: they were afraid. 

Hi EdwardGoodie
It is all Spirit, all of it, now that Christ is Risen! Not sure about adding "attachments" but concerning the kind of heathen attachments I was speaking of, you do not want those kind of "marriages"... 

Perhaps a different approach might better explain:

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24.  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25.  And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26.  Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

If one considers the "unclean spirit" to be the same as the "old man" sin nature, of which Paul speaks, who served "the prince of the power of the air" (Eph.2:2) then which "seven heathen-spirits more wicked than himself" should we suppose that he is going to go get and bring back with him according to the statement of Yeshua above? And would that not make him "the eighth and of the seven" if he goes and gets seven others more wicked than himself?

Genesis 4:6-7 KJV
6.  And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7.  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And why then did Yeshua appear first to Mary Magdalene?

Mark 16:9 KJV
9.  Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Perhaps the fullness of the "Gentiles" had come into her also, and Yeshua cast them out by the very Finger of YHWH, but she still had that "other" Mary, and timing is everything...

I'm quite certain Paul's emphasis was on the word "fullness"

The "fullness" mentioned in Romans 11:25 is the same "fullness" as mentioned in Romans 11:12, John 1:16, Colossians 1:19, Romans 15:29, and Ephesians 1:22-23. It is the fullness of the covenantal inheritance in Christ which came to the gentiles when they were included as co-heirs in the blessing of Abraham and his seed, Jesus.

By comparing "fullness" (Greek: "pleroma" - Strong's #4138) in Romans 11:25 to its parallel usage in Romans 11:11-12, we see that the term speaks of the "riches" and "salvation" that came to the gentile world through Christ. These riches came to the gentiles via the "diminishing" of some Jews that were blinded during Christ's incarnational ministry but that would later convert in order to obtain "fullness" (Rom 11:11-12,14-23), the fullness of being in the blessing of Abraham and Christ (Gal 3:7-9,14-17,26-29). Paul was one of these such Jews whose initial blindness had been converted (Rom 11:1; 1 Tim 1:12-16), and there were many more at that then-present time which would be converted like him (Rom 11:5; 2 Cor 3:14-16). These first-century Jews were called a "remnant," and, according to Paul, were like the few that constituted the true Nation of Israel during the time of apostasy under Isaiah and also Elijah (Rom 11:5; cf. Rom 11:1-5; 9:27-29). So, the meaning of "fullness" in Romans 11:25 becomes plain from looking at Romans 11:11-12:

    I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? (Rom 11:11-12)

We see from this passage that "fullness" is the opposite reality to the "fall" and "diminishing" of some Jews, where "fall" and "diminishing" clearly mean the falling away from God's covenant, and "fullness" means the riches and salvation which come from being in covenant with Christ (see also: Rom 11:14-23).

The gentiles obtained this "fullness" (covenantal inheritance, salvation, and blessing) during St. Paul's ministry. In fact, Paul's entire ministry goal was to deliver this inheritance to the gentile populations (Acts 26:16-23; 20:32; 13:47; Rom 15:16,29; Eph 3:1-10; Rom 11:13; 2 Tim 1:11). Paul accomplished this mystery of God for the gentiles to become co-heirs with the Jews in Christ's New Covenant riches by the end of his lifetime (compare Acts 13:47/26:16-23/Eph 3:1-10 to 2 Tim 4:7,17). The Church is not still waiting for the gentiles to be offered up and approved by God (Rom 15:16) that they might obtain the fullness of inheritance and riches in Christ. The fullness of the gentiles came in no later than the completion of Paul's ministry. -preterist vision

When you examine the following prophecies and fulfillments, not only will you find them perfectly fulfilled as to what Jesus said, but fulfilled right down to the exact Greek usage!  As soon as the Gospel went everywhere, the end of the world was to immediately come, and come it did.  However, it was not the end of the global, planetary world often an interpretation of present day analysis – it was the old covenant Judaistic world with its temple, rituals, and ceremony.

Oikoumenē – Strong's 3625 οικουμένη
Kosmos – Strong's 2889 κόσμος
Ktisis – Strong's 2937 κτίσις,
Ethnos – Strong's 2819 έθνος
Ge – Strong's 1093 γή

Prophecy:
Matthew 24:14 – And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikumene] for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Fulfillment:
Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world [oikumene].

Prophecy:
Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world [kosmos], and preach the gospel to every creature.

Fulfillment:
Colossians 1:5-6 – For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world [kosmos]; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Prophecy:
Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature [ktisis].

Fulfillment:
Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature [ktisis] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Prophecy:
Matthew 28:19 – Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [ethnos], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 13:10 – And the gospel must first be published among all nations [ethnos].

Fulfillment:
Romans 16:25-26 – Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations [ethnos] for the obedience of faith:

Prophecy:
Acts 1:8 – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth [ge].

Fulfillment:
Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth [ge], and their words unto the ends of the world.

Prophecy:
Isaiah 52:14-15 – As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Fulfillment:
Romans 15:19-21 – Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Don't get mad at me, these aren't my opinions.  It is the illumination of Scripture by Jesus and His inspired apostles!

Yes Edwardgoodie,

Paul said that the gospel was preached to "every creature under heaven" (Colossians 1:23). This means that the end of the Jewish age was near.

thinker

Quote from: EdwardGoodie on Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 20:56:41
When you examine the following prophecies and fulfillments, not only will you find them perfectly fulfilled as to what Jesus said, but fulfilled right down to the exact Greek usage!  As soon as the Gospel went everywhere, the end of the world was to immediately come, and come it did.  However, it was not the end of the global, planetary world often an interpretation of present day analysis – it was the old covenant Judaistic world with its temple, rituals, and ceremony.

Oikoumenē – Strong's 3625 οικουμένη
Kosmos – Strong's 2889 κόσμος
Ktisis – Strong's 2937 κτίσις,
Ethnos – Strong's 2819 έθνος
Ge – Strong's 1093 γή

Prophecy:
Matthew 24:14 – And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikumene] for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Fulfillment:
Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world [oikumene].

Prophecy:
Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world [kosmos], and preach the gospel to every creature.

Fulfillment:
Colossians 1:5-6 – For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world [kosmos]; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Prophecy:
Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature [ktisis].

Fulfillment:
Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature [ktisis] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Prophecy:
Matthew 28:19 – Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [ethnos], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 13:10 – And the gospel must first be published among all nations [ethnos].

Fulfillment:
Romans 16:25-26 – Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations [ethnos] for the obedience of faith:

Prophecy:
Acts 1:8 – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth [ge].

Fulfillment:
Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth [ge], and their words unto the ends of the world.

Prophecy:
Isaiah 52:14-15 – As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Fulfillment:
Romans 15:19-21 – Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Don't get mad at me, these aren't my opinions.  It is the illumination of Scripture by Jesus and His inspired apostles!

No--they are not your opinions---they are your interpretations.  

Romans 8:30 says:

"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"(past tense) (Rom. 8:30)

You see Edward God often speaks of things as though they are already done, when indeed they have not yet passed in time yet.  God is outside of time, so to Him the Gospel already has been preached to all nations---just as in his eyes all believers have already been glorified-as Romans 8:30 says above.   But because we live in time, what God sees as "done" we still need to live out.   This is where the great error of Pretersim has it's false definitions.  It is all based on misunderstanding of the interpretation of Scripture.  

God points and says "look at that Oak tree" even though there is only an acorn in the ground at the present time.  He sees the tree as already there because he knows what the seed will grow into.   Much of scripture is spoken in the same terms.  God speaks as though things are fulfilled far before they actually are.  Preterists do not understand this concept, and it causes great confusion.

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 14:31:34

No--they are not your opinions---they are your interpretations.  

Romans 8:30 says:

"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"(past tense) (Rom. 8:30)

You see Edward God often speaks of things as though they are already done, when indeed they have not yet passed in time yet.  God is outside of time, so to Him the Gospel already has been preached to all nations---just as in his eyes all believers have already been glorified-as Romans 8:30 says above.   But because we live in time, what God sees as "done" we still need to live out.   This is where the great error of Pretersim has it's false definitions.  It is all based on misunderstanding of the interpretation of Scripture.  

God points and says "look at that Oak tree" even though there is only an acorn in the ground at the present time.  He sees the tree as already there because he knows what the seed will grow into.   Much of scripture is spoken in the same terms.  God speaks as though things are fulfilled far before they actually are.  Preterists do not understand this concept, and it causes great confusion.

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 14:31:34
No--they are not your opinions---they are your interpretations. 

Romans 8:30 says:

"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"(past tense) (Rom. 8:30)

You see Edward God often speaks of things as though they are already done, when indeed they have not yet passed in time yet.  God is outside of time, so to Him the Gospel already has been preached to all nations---just as in his eyes all believers have already been glorified-as Romans 8:30 says above.   But because we live in time, what God sees as "done" we still need to live out.   This is where the great error of Pretersim has it's false definitions.  It is all based on misunderstanding of the interpretation of Scripture. 

God points and says "look at that Oak tree" even though there is only an acorn in the ground at the present time.  He sees the tree as already there because he knows what the seed will grow into.   Much of scripture is spoken in the same terms.  God speaks as though things are fulfilled far before they actually are.  Preterists do not understand this concept, and it causes great confusion.

I believe those Scriptures speak quite well for themselves.  I added nothing in the way of interpretation.  Paul does the illumination of what Jesus said, not me, but good try.

And I guess there is no way for you to accept the possibility that your understanding of glorification from Romans 8:30 may be flawed, right?  So, what you said is not necessarily proof at all.

And all that silly time stuff again.  You forget that Paul is writing to living , breathing believers from various churches when he says all those things.  In your view, those recipients of Paul's letters had no clue as to what Paul was saying.  My God is a perfect communicator.  He knows He is talking to man.

Besides, you say these silly time things but never demonstrate from Scripture how those thoughts of yours are proven.  Why is that?

I'd like to comment on what you said about the "oak tree" but I am at a loss as to what reference and translation you are using.

I am not sure why this thread about the Gospel being preached in all nations prior to the first century was buried here, since the original thread is about the identification of the Gentiles who would receive the fullness, but I'm sure there must be some reason.

Quote from: EdwardGoodie on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 14:50:38
Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Who are the Gentiles that Paul is referring to?

Note: If you have no supporting evidence (SCRIPTURE) for your claims, you will be wasting your time by responding.  I am tired of having people respond with their Scriptureless opinions, and I imagine a lot of others are tired of that too.

EdwardGoodie,

The "Gentiles" in Romans 11 were the 10 lost tribes of Israel. They were "gentiles" as far as the Jews were concerned. These were the "gentiles" who were uncircumcised and were were "afar off" but made "near" by the blood of Jesus (Eph. 2). This is substantiated by the fact that Paul said that Christ "came and preached" to them (Eph. 2:17). Christ came ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. These were the "gentiles" of Romans 11.

All Israel was saved when they came into salvation. Then those who were born gentiles could come into salvation.

thinker

Quote from: thethinker on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 14:14:11

EdwardGoodie,

The "Gentiles" in Romans 11 were the 10 lost tribes of Israel. They were "gentiles" as far as the Jews were concerned. These were the "gentiles" who were uncircumcised and were were "afar off" but made "near" by the blood of Jesus (Eph. 2). This is substantiated by the fact that Paul said that Christ "came and preached" to them (Eph. 2:17). Christ came ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. These were the "gentiles" of Romans 11.

All Israel was saved when they came into salvation. Then those who were born gentiles could come into salvation.

thinker

Yes. I quite realize that.  The fulness of the Gentiles is how the two kingdoms of Israel are prophesied as uniting into one body regarding the "dry bones" and "stick" prophecies of Ezekiel 37.

Ezekiel 37:11-23 - Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.   
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.   
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,   
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.   
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,   
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:   
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.   
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?   
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.   
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.   
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:   
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:   
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.   

As far as I know, they were still two separate kingdoms right up until Christ...

There are some who believe all of Ezekiel was fulfilled in Ezekiel's day (including the above prophesy) because the promises were just "conditional."  However, it wouldn't matter if they were conditional or not because if the prophecy was fulfilled in Ezekiel's day, that means that the conditions had to have been met!

Okay EdwardGoodie,

I'll reply tomorrow on Ezekiel 37 and I will bury you. Now it's time for bed.

thinker

EdwardGoodie wrote:

QuoteThere are some who believe all of Ezekiel was fulfilled in Ezekiel's day (including the above prophesy) because the promises were just "conditional."  However, it wouldn't matter if they were conditional or not because if the prophecy was fulfilled in Ezekiel's day, that means that the conditions had to have been met!

Nonsense! Jeremiah said that God would "repent" of the good He spoke if Israel disobeyed (Jeremiah 18:8-10). This was stated as a general principle. So if Israel disobeyed the dry bones prophecy is null and void.

thinker

Perhaps the following may help?

2 Kings 17:5-6 KJV
5.  Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years.
6.  In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.

Jeremiah 49:34-36 KJV
34.  The word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet against Elam in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying,
35.  Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, the chief of their might.
36.  And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

Ezekiel 37:9-11 KJV
9.  Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10.  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11.  Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Daniel 7:1-2 KJV
1.  In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
2.  Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Daniel 8:1-2 KJV
1.  In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
2.  And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

Zechariah 1:18-20 KJV
18.  Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
19.  And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, these are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.
20.  And the Lord shewed me four carpenters ("artizans" YGB).

1) The Gospel of Matthew
2) The Gospel of Mark (Peter)
3) The Gospel of Luke
4) The Gospel John (Eleazar-Lazarus)

Revelation 6:1 KJV
1.  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts ("living creature"-carpenter-artizan) saying, Come and see.

Ahh yes; Revelation 6 ~
The Four Winds of Heaven strove upon the Great Sea ...
But to each in his own appointed times ...

 

Zechariah 6:1-5 KJV
1.  And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
2.  In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
3.  And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
4.  Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
5.  And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

Zechariah 6:5 ASV
5.  And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four winds of heaven, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

Yep, Revelation Six ... 

Quote
EdwardGoodie said:

Who are the Gentiles that Paul is referring to?

The Gentiles that Paul is referring to in Romans 11:25 are genetic Gentiles, who are the people Paul is addressing throughout Romans 11:13-31, those people who aren't genetic Jews like Paul shows he is in Romans 11:1,14. Genetic Jews are the "natural branches" of their own good, olive tree of Israel, whereas genetic Gentiles are branches of a "wild" olive tree (Romans 11:24-25).

All those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

---

When Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25b), he means until the full number of genetic Gentile individuals has become saved, which won't happen until right before the second coming of Jesus (Romans 11:26b). Then, at the second coming, all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the second coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, for it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Quote
thethinker said:

The "Gentiles" in Romans 11 were the 10 lost tribes of Israel.

There are no lost tribes of Israel, insofar as the ten northern tribes of Israel weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the ten northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history, because some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom of Israel, when it had first become idolatrous, some individuals from all ten of the northern tribes of Israel had left the northern kingdom of Israel to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews.

That's why later, the Jews living in the first century AD could be referred to as including individuals from all twelve of the tribes of Israel (Acts 26:7, James 1:1), and why at that time, for example, Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the ten so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people living on the earth today who are descended genetically from a first century Jew would include individuals from all twelve of the tribes of Israel. Some of these descendants could know that they're Jews, because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles, because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years didn't keep their Jewish identity, but eventually abandoned it and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants today are almost entirely Gentile genetically.

Similarly, with regard to the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity, over the past 2,700 years their descendants could have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants living on the earth today could know themselves only as Gentiles, and be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

Quote
thethinker said:

These were the "gentiles" who were uncircumcised and were were "afar off" but made "near" by the blood of Jesus (Eph. 2).

Ephesians 2:11-19 is addressing all those who are genetic Gentiles, as opposed to those who are genetic Jews (cf. Philippians 3:5). Ephesians 2:12,19 shows that believing genetic Gentiles aren't strangers to Israel, but are fellowcitizens in Israel with believing genetic Jews (see also Ephesians 3:6). For believing genetic Jews remain in Israel (Romans 11:1) and believing genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Galatians 3:29) so that they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Quote
thethinker said:

This is substantiated by the fact that Paul said that Christ "came and preached" to them (Eph. 2:17).

Ephesians 2:17 is referring to the fact that, for example, Christ preached in John 10:16 that he had "other sheep", meaning genetic Gentiles, who would become believers in him and be brought by him into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Quote
thethinker said:

Christ came ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. These were the "gentiles" of Romans 11.

Just as in Matthew 10:6, "Israel" means genetic Jews, for it's specifically distinguished from the genetic "Gentiles" in Matthew 10:5; so in Matthew 15:24, "Israel" means genetic Jews, as opposed to genetic Gentiles.

The gospel goes to genetic Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24) and salvation is of genetic Jews (John 4:22b) because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Genetic Gentile believers are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation of Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). Also, all believers, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Quote
thethinker said:

All Israel was saved when they came into salvation. Then those who were born gentiles could come into salvation.

All Israel won't be saved "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), meaning until the full number of genetic Gentile individuals has become saved, which won't happen until right before the second coming of Jesus (Romans 11:26b). Then, at the second coming, all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Quote from: Bible2 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 22:10:41

Quote

When Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25b), he means until the full number of genetic Gentile individuals has become saved, which won't happen until right before the second coming of Jesus (Romans 11:26b).

No, that is not what Paul means at all.  If he would have meant full number of gentiles, he would have said full number of gentiles.  But he didn't say that.  He said the "fulness [πληρωμα] of the gentiles".  The word fulness [πληρωμα] in 11:25 carries the same meaning as fulness [πληρωμα] in 11:12.  Translating the Greek word πληρωμα in 11:25 as full number is an obvious distortion to align with a particular view of the end times.  And it is wrong.

The fulness of the gentiles was accomplished a long time ago.  Probably by the end of the first century, or certainly very soon thereafter.

Jimmy: "The fulness of the gentiles was accomplished a long time ago.  Probably by the end of the first century, or certainly very soon thereafter."

Agreed....the biblical Jew was fading out of the picture in Jesus' walk on earth.
Jesus is clear in Matthew 21:43 that the kingdom would be taken away from the biblical Jew
and "given to another nation."

Amazing that the chief priests and Pharisees after hearing Jesus' parable
of the "wicked husbandmen" in Matthew 21 "perceived that he spoke of them" (v.45)
yet we have those today who cling to the ridiculous eschatologial doctrine of a dispensational premillenial theory.

Just as no one is more anti-Christian than a Zionist, no one is more pro Israel than a dispensationalist.
From the ranks of the latter, in fact, has come the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem (Google) with branch
offices in the U.S. and many other countries.

Embassy spokesman Jan Willem Van Der Hoeven makes it his mission to persuade "Jew" to go and live in Israel
and die for Jerusalem if necessary. If Israel would announce plans to rebuild a temple, dispensationalists in the West
could be expected to finance it immediately.

Israel-the-key-to prophecy is dogma for such denominational bodies as the Assemblies of God and
Independent Baptists, and Messianic nationalism has it s disciples everywhere.
Note that a storm of paperbacks hits with each political shift in the Middle East.
Hal Lindsey and John Hagee have filled their coffers with each rag they put in the book stores or their web sites.

You can go to just about any "Garage sale" and find old prophecy books, out of print, pitiful, mildewed monuments
to dead visions---grave stones for prophecy "scholars" long-since buried in the shroud of misbegotten charts,
locked in the tomb of eschatological disgrace by their own "keys."

Paul said, "There is neither Jew nor Greek" (Galatians 3:28).
He also said, "For as many of YOU as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (v. 27).

The dispensationalist has the cart before the horse....
If those who dream of resurrecting what Jesus made "desolate" (Matthew 23:38) has not "put on Christ"
and has real problem with their own salvation thus complicating with a dream to restore old fleshly Israel
where grace bows to race, faith to flesh.

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 07:35:49

Quote from: Bible2 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 22:10:41

When Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25b), he means until the full number of genetic Gentile individuals has become saved, which won't happen until right before the second coming of Jesus (Romans 11:26b).

No, that is not what Paul means at all.  If he would have meant full number of gentiles, he would have said full number of gentiles.  But he didn't say that.  He said the "fulness [πληρωμα] of the gentiles".  The word fulness [πληρωμα] in 11:25 carries the same meaning as fulness [πληρωμα] in 11:12.  Translating the Greek word πληρωμα in 11:25 as full number is an obvious distortion to align with a particular view of the end times.  And it is wrong.

The fulness of the gentiles was accomplished a long time ago.  Probably by the end of the first century, or certainly very soon thereafter.

Amen, (in part) because the word used in Romans 11:25 is GSN#4138 "pleroma" which comes from GSN#4137 "pleroo" and both meaning "repletion" to the full. The same words are used for the filling of the Holy Spirit concerning believers yet in this case rather it concerns the fullness of negative forces: Gentiles-Heathens, (spirit) just as explained on Pg.1 in Reply numbers Six and Ten. However, if people do not wish to believe it then there is no sense in forcing the issue, yet this is exactly the way that Paul states all Israel shall be saved in the verse that follows.

Ephesians 3:19 KJV
19.  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled (GSN#4137 pleroo) with all the fulness (GSN#4138 pleroma) of God.

Original Strong's Ref. #4137
Romanized  pleroo
Pronounced play-ro'-o
from GSN4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:
KJV--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Original Strong's Ref. #4138
Romanized  pleroma
Pronounced play'-ro-mah
from GSN4137; repletion or completion, i.e. (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period):
KJV--which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.

Romans 11:25-26 KJV
25.  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness (GSN#4138 pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in.
26.  And so (GSN#3779 houto) all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Original Strong's Ref. #3779
Romanized  houto
Pronounced hoo'-to
or (before a vowel} houtos {hoo'-toce}; adverb from GSN3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):
KJV--after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

"And IN THIS WAY shall all Israel be saved" ...

Quote from: Bible2 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 22:56:02

...Then, at the second coming, all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Bible2,

What you just said above in that bolded, underlined, and blue (my emphasis) is SCRIPTURALLY INCORRECT.  You say Zechariah 12:10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ.  Here is the verse:

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.  

But in the fourth Gospel, the author uses Zechariah as the fulfillment to CHRIST'S FIRST COMING:

John 19:34-37 - But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.  
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.  
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.  
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.  

The only way out of your present dilemma (and poor exegesis) is to find another place in the Old Testament where  
"They shall look on him whom they pierced" is used.  And then you will have to prove that it refers to His second coming...as far as I know, there is no such other verse.

Quote from: pointmade on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 09:06:38
Jimmy: "The fulness of the gentiles was accomplished a long time ago.  Probably by the end of the first century, or certainly very soon thereafter."

Agreed....the biblical Jew was fading out of the picture in Jesus' walk on earth.
Jesus is clear in Matthew 21:43 that the kingdom would be taken away from the biblical Jew
and "given to another nation." 

Quote from: daq on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 09:11:50

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 07:35:49

Quote from: Bible2 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 22:10:41

When Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25b), he means until the full number of genetic Gentile individuals has become saved, which won't happen until right before the second coming of Jesus (Romans 11:26b).

No, that is not what Paul means at all.  If he would have meant full number of gentiles, he would have said full number of gentiles.  But he didn't say that.  He said the "fulness [πληρωμα] of the gentiles".  The word fulness [πληρωμα] in 11:25 carries the same meaning as fulness [πληρωμα] in 11:12.  Translating the Greek word πληρωμα in 11:25 as full number is an obvious distortion to align with a particular view of the end times.  And it is wrong.

The fulness of the gentiles was accomplished a long time ago.  Probably by the end of the first century, or certainly very soon thereafter.

Amen, (in part) because the word used in Romans 11:25 is GSN#4138 "pleroma" which comes from GSN#4137 "pleroo" and both meaning "repletion" to the full. The same words are used for the filling of the Holy Spirit concerning believers yet in this case rather it concerns the fullness of negative forces: Gentiles-Heathens, (spirit) just as explained on Pg.1 in Reply numbers Six and Ten. However, if people do not wish to believe it then there is no sense in forcing the issue, yet this is exactly the way that Paul states all Israel shall be saved in the verse that follows.

The sense of the meaning of the word fullness in Romans 11 is precisely the same as the sense that Paul conveys in Colossians.

Col 2:9  For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Col 2:10  and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

Quote from: daq

Bible2 wrote:

QuoteThere are no lost tribes of Israel, insofar as the ten northern tribes of Israel weren't entirely lost to history.

I did not mean that they were entirely lost.

QuoteSo the people living on the earth today who are descended genetically from a first century Jew would include individuals from all twelve of the tribes of Israel. Some of these descendants could know that they're Jews, because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles, because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years didn't keep their Jewish identity, but eventually abandoned it and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants today are almost entirely Gentile genetically.

Nope! There is no Jewish race today. See the Encyclopedia Britannica.

QuoteEphesians 2:11-19 is addressing all those who are genetic Gentiles, as opposed to those who are genetic Jews (cf. Philippians 3:5).

Verse 17 says that Christ "came and preached" to them. Christ was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Paul CLEARLY said that they were "gentiles" because they were uncircumcised. He clearly said that they were gentiles so called by the Circumcision. They were NOT genetic Gentiles. In 3:1 Paul said that he was imprisoned for you "gentiles." The book of Acts CLEARLY reveals that He was imprisoned for preaching the hope of Israel to Israel. 

QuoteEphesians 2:12,19 shows that believing genetic Gentiles aren't strangers to Israel, but are fellowcitizens in Israel with believing genetic Jews (see also Ephesians 3:6). For believing genetic Jews remain in Israel (Romans 11:1) and believing genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Galatians 3:29) so that they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Ephesians 2 is all about the incorporation of those who were called gentiles by the Jews. According to the Abrahamic covenant an uncircumcised Israelite was to be "cut off from the people" and was therefore to be counted as a gentile. Again, verse 17 says Christ "came and preached" to them. This proves that they were genetic Israelites because Jesus was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I said:

QuoteThis is substantiated by the fact that Paul said that Christ "came and preached" to them (Eph. 2:17).

Bible2 replied:

QuoteEphesians 2:17 is referring to the fact that, for example, Christ preached in John 10:16 that he had "other sheep", meaning genetic Gentiles, who would become believers in him and be brought by him into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

You're begging the question. The "other sheep" were those of Israel who had been cast out of the covenant.

I said:

QuoteChrist came ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. These were the "gentiles" of Romans 11.

Bible2 replied:

QuoteJust as in Matthew 10:6, "Israel" means genetic Jews, for it's specifically distinguished from the genetic "Gentiles" in Matthew 10:5; so in Matthew 15:24, "Israel" means genetic Jews, as opposed to genetic Gentiles.

Again you're begging the question.

I said:

QuoteAll Israel was saved when they came into salvation. Then those who were born gentiles could come into salvation.

Bible2 replied:

QuoteAll Israel won't be saved "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), meaning until the full number of genetic Gentile individuals has become saved, which won't happen until right before the second coming of Jesus (Romans 11:26b). Then, at the second coming, all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Paul was speaking about the elect remnant of Israel or so called gentiles of his generation. He said, "Even so at the PRESENT TIME there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (11:5). The salvation of that remnant was the "fulness of the gentiles." They were grafted back into the olive tree and the tree was complete with all its branches. After all the branches were grafted in, then the tree could bear olive fruit (genetic genties).

If what you are saying is correct, then genetic gentiles have not yet comme into salvation for the branches MUST all be grafted back in before the tree can bear fruit (genetic gentiles).

Genetic gentiles are NOT the branches. Genetic gentiles are THE FRUIT!

Tree root: genetic Jews

Branches: genetic Israelites who had been removed from the tree and grafted back in (called "gentiles")

Olive fruit: genetic gentiles.

If genetic gentiles are branches as is commonly taught, then who is the fruit? The branches MUST bear fruit.

thinker

Quote from: EdwardGoodie on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 09:13:14

Quote from: Bible2 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 22:56:02

...Then, at the second coming, all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Bible2,

What you just said above in that bolded, underlined, and blue (my emphasis) is SCRIPTURALLY INCORRECT.  You say Zechariah 12:10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ.  Here is the verse:

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.  

But in the fourth Gospel, the author uses Zechariah as the fulfillment to CHRIST'S FIRST COMING:

John 19:34-37 - But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.  
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.  
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.  
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.  

The only way out of your present dilemma (and poor exegesis) is to find another place in the Old Testament where  
"They shall look on him whom they pierced" is used.  And then you will have to prove that it refers to His second coming...as far as I know, there is no such other verse.

BUMP TO BIBLE2...

Not a good idea to refute and contradict the Lord EG

Let the Lord speak:

Isaiah
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt

27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Jeremiah
30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.

30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.

30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.

30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.

30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.

30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.

30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.

30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.

30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.

30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Jeremiah
31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Zechariah
13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Romans
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:26 And so all Israel [All of believing Israel .... the rest will be killed] [Zechariah 13:8-9]shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Matthew
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Quote from: Linker on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 13:05:51
Not a good idea to refute and contradict the Lord EG

Let the Lord speak:

Isaiah
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea...

Not refuting the Lord or contradicting the Lord in any way, shape, or form.  I am, however clearly contradicting and refuting what Bible2 said regarding Zechariah 12:10.

Bible2 says it is regarding the second coming.

THE INSPIRED AUTHOR OF THE FOURTH GOSPEL says that it was in regard to the Lord's first coming and especially in relation to Calvary.

And yet you would rather stand with Bible2 on this???  This is exactly why traditions make the Word of God void!

Perhaps you need to look more closely:

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.  

John 19:34-37 - But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.  
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.  
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.  
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

And I guess you are in continual denial as to how the INSPIRED APOSTLE PAUL used Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12 to demonstrate to his Jew/Gentile church at Rome that the Gentiles WERE BEING GATHERED INTO THE CHURCH!  Again, this shows how an accepted tradition makes void the Word of God:

Romans 15:8-12 - Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:  
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.  
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.  
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.  
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.      

Isaiah 11:10 - And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.  

The "IN THAT DAY" of Isaiah 11:10 (which you so conveniently left out) AND Isaiah 11:11 is represented by the PRESENT DAY of that first century church at Rome.

But I already know you are dead set against anything that contradicts your tradition...even if it is Scripture itself.

Have a great day!

Still waiting Bible2...

"But I already know you are dead set against anything that contradicts your tradition...even if it is Scripture itself"

Right back at ya son .....

The tradition of preterism goes back a long way .... early "church fathers" of the RCC

...... but the Bible's truth is timeless and goes back much further than yours

Do you get your preterism from the RCC, or have you fallen for the new packaged deal that is sold by the scoffers of the last days?

Refute John's usage of Zechariah 12:10 in John 19:37.

Refute Paul's usage of Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12.


You see, your tradition of Zechariah 12:10 is that it is about the second coming.  The inspired author of the fourth Gospel says otherwise.  Your tradition is refuted, not by me, but by the inspired writer.

You see, your tradition of Isaiah 11:10 and Isaiah 11:11 is that it is still a future event because you do not properly understand what is meant by Gentile.  The inspired apostle, Paul, refutes your theory.

We have tried to explain these types of things to you but your tradition will not allow you to hear it...and it is painfully clear that you will not hear it from the inspired individuals either...

Instead of your usual slanderous comments, why not show us (forum members) how John made a mistake in associating Zechariah 12:10 with Calvary?  If what I said is so much in error, that is all you have to do.  Should be a simple task for someone so convinced that their tradition (Zech 12:10 = 2nd coming) is correct.

Why not give it the old college try, my friend?  If I am wrong and you can find Scriptural support that John somehow made an error, I will definitely apologize...

But honestly, if you had a Scriptural argument against what John said, I am sure it would have been forthcoming instead of the slanderous comments.  There is good tradition ya know...and there is bad tradition.  I just pointed out the bad tradition that you adhere to.  Don't mind me; it was those inspired fellows who pointed it out.  And please don't forget, I was holding to your view just five years ago!  I just couldn't argue with those pesky inspired guys...and believe me, I tried.