Christian Forums

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:39:58
I would think Genesis 38 would clear this up with ease.

6 Now Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar.
7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life.
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:12:46

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:39:58
I would think Genesis 38 would clear this up with ease.

6 Now Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar.
7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life.
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:06:37

Quote from: Catholica on Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:28:55
I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.

I agree, it is never mentioned.

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 11:29:47

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:06:37

Quote from: Catholica on Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:28:55
I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.

I agree, it is never mentioned.

Onan. Gensis 38. Pull out method. Matsurbation.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:06:37

Quote from: Catholica on Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:28:55
I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.

Not to be confrontational, but ALL?  Really?  I highly doubt that all sexual perversions that people have thought up are explicitly listed in scripture.

The Mishnah, which you are probably familiar with, that being the recording of the Oral Torah or Oral Tradition held by the Jews of Jesus' time, including Jesus himself, through one of its authoritative interpretive documents, the Babylonian Talmud, refers to the sin of Onan as a masturbatory act, and states that the man who masturbates should have his hand chopped off.  Reference.

...not that we Christians accept the Mishnah or Talmud, but the point is, in concert with what LightHammer has written, that the sin of Onanism in Judaism, even ancient Judaism, was the sin of masturbation.  The scripture says "God killed him for what he did," not what he didn't do.  This thing that Onan was punished for has always also been held to condemn the masturbatory act.

Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 06:55:37
Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

No seriously Onan. Genesis 38:6-10 cross referenced with Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Pull out method.

What's really left to talk about?

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:26:07

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 06:55:37
Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

No seriously Onan. Genesis 38:6-10 cross referenced with Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Pull out method.

What's really left to talk about?

To me this is totally a different issue from masturbation.IT was the reason that he did it that made it wrong. To me the only thing that can make masturbation wrong Biblically is if the one doing is is imagining pornographic images while they do it. There seem to be silence on it in the Bible, so one of those grey areas.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:35:27

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:26:07

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 06:55:37
Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

No seriously Onan. Genesis 38:6-10 cross referenced with Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Pull out method.

What's really left to talk about?

To me this is totally a different issue from masturbation.IT was the reason that he did it that made it wrong. To me the only thing that can make masturbation wrong Biblically is if the one doing is is imagining pornographic images while they do it. There seem to be silence on it in the Bible, so one of those grey areas.

Yea I'm definitely done with this.

All I can suggest is that, like fasting, refraining from indulging bodily passions frees up the body and the mind and helps us raise our thoughts to God, rather than keeping them tethered to our flesh.

Truly, my life has been better since I stopped, five years ago now.   I am a better person for it.  Try it for yourself.  I think that, if you struggle through it, with prayer to God to help you refrain, you will realize that you are also a better person for it.  I think that is what God wants for us, to be more holy and more like Jesus.

Catholica, I will not argue the value you have found it that; especially if you personally believe the Lord had you to stop it, and you found the grace to do so.

In fact I think that it is great!

But, that said, I think where it goes wrong is assuming that if God has that for you, He has it for everyone.

In Latin rite catholicism, all priests are forbidden to get married. That is fine as there is a charismatic gift of celebacy. That means it is given by the Holy Spirit to some, probably as rare as those who have a true gift of supernatural healing.  (also a charismatic gift)

But what if a person choses the priesthood who does not have that gift of grace? We have all read some of the results of that. (and I never understood why they were not allowed into another rite)

There are only a few things in this New Covenant life that come in "one size fits all." We are not all eyes or all hands or all feet or ears or noses. (1 Cor 12) Each one is given his or her own personal grace.  Many do not have the grace to forego orgasmic release for years (or even weeks) on end.

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 11:31:31

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 11:29:47

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:06:37

Quote from: Catholica on Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:28:55
I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.

I agree, it is never mentioned.

Onan. Gensis 38. Pull out method. Matsurbation.

Get our your dictionary.
Look up the word.
You are ENTIRELY confusing two ENTIRELY different things.


Yes, you've quoted Genesis 38.  What you've NOT done is substantiate the masturbation is THEREIN condemned (or even that it happened).  You may be correct in your condemnation of the practice, but your apologetic is entirely empty (and it seems, based entirely on a misunderstanding of what masturbation even is, which is rather shocking to me). 





.

I honestly don't think masturbation is any more spiritual than defecating, or any more sinful for that matter. It is what it is. If you do not do it in faith you are committing sin. I touch myself when I wash myself. Is that sin? Hmm.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:35:27

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:26:07

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 06:55:37
Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

No seriously Onan. Genesis 38:6-10 cross referenced with Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Pull out method.

What's really left to talk about?

To me this is totally a different issue from masturbation.IT was the reason that he did it that made it wrong. To me the only thing that can make masturbation wrong Biblically is if the one doing is is imagining pornographic images while they do it. There seem to be silence on it in the Bible, so one of those grey areas.

So it's okay to engage in unnatural pleasures of the flesh as long as you don't imagine naked people while you're at it? Uh-oh, it's time to break out the....

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

Quote from: LightHammer on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

Quote from: mrhockey903 on Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.
.

Actually good questions, avoiding the OP to point out that in the case of the scripture cited God's anger had to do with preserving a righteous blood line through which the Messiah would come

The wasted seed was seen by God as potentially ruinous to His Sovereign Plan....

God the Creator of all knows the life potential within all our seed, even if we do not

Quote1.  Onan masturbated.

Genesis 38:7He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,

Onan had to take his hands and cause his seed to spew out on the ground. If you simply pull out before or during a climax your seed will only ooze out partially. It is highly uncomfortable and if you don't fully spew your seed out you will be in great discomfort.

Onan had to masturbate to cause himself to ejaculate.

Quote2.  He was killed for THAT reason.

Genesis 38: 10And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

The cause of Onan's death is something he did. The cause of Onan's death was not something he didn't do. What Onan did was masturbate to spew his seed on the ground. What he didn't do was consummate his responsibility to his brother's widow. The detestable thing done was masturbating to ejaculate apart from the natural execution of sex.

That is why Onan was killed.

Quote3.  Contraception is always wrong.

The OP is about masturbation not contraception.

I can see no specific verses in the Bible about masturbation, and I dont agree that onan has anything to do with the evils of masturbation at all.
The sin involved in it would surely be that many will imagine wrong pictures and thoughts while they are doing it. I think it is one of those grey areas that God doesnt specifically tell us about. If person can masturbate without imagining wrong images then I cant see that it is a sin, but thats my take on it going by what I see the Bible says.

It is interesting to note that while Leviticus describes in no uncertain terms various sexual sins that "M" is not included.  This is especially interesting in the light of where they all had just come from. Egyptian mythology at the time believed the universe was the product [ejaculate] of one of their gods masturbating. There are many heiroglyphics showing men doing the deed, so apparently it had some religious significance in their society. It is also probable that Hebrew slaves carved many of those images.   

Many other Torah prohibitions like cutting your own flesh (scarring) or tattoos were because they were part of idol worship in the various cultures. So for M to be left out almost had to be intentional.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 11:08:52
I can see no specific verses in the Bible about masturbation, and I dont agree that onan has anything to do with the evils of masturbation at all.
The sin involved in it would surely be that many will imagine wrong pictures and thoughts while they are doing it. I think it is one of those grey areas that God doesnt specifically tell us about. If person can masturbate without imagining wrong images then I cant see that it is a sin, but thats my take on it going by what I see the Bible says.

I guess that settles that. Even though the Bible says that Onan died for doing a detestable thing and even though the Bible tells us what Onan did was masturbate to spill his seed outside of the natural execution of sex, you don't agree with it because you don't see it like that.

You think its about lustful thoughts but the Bible tells us that Onan wasn't even thinking lustfully. The Bible tells us   that Onan's thoughts were focused on the baby not being his but his brothers. The Bible tells us that this thought was the driving force behind Onan's actions.

The Bible completely proves your lustful thoughts assertion wrong.

Thank goodness you showed up, Lighthammer! It turns out that all these Protestants are Master Debaters! Even the ones who normally can't argue worth a darn are really holding their own in this masturbation debate!  

I'm frankly puzzled how any Christian could think that masturbation is okay. I mean, we condemn homosexuals for their unnatural behavior; how can we say that other unnatural sexual acts are acceptable?  

Interesting topic and responses  
I think it's cool that people here are willing to open up and talk about this topic  .

To me, and yes I'm a guy, what I've accepted for myself about this and for a lot of other topics that God is "Directly" silent about and doesn't mention, like TV, speeding in traffic,movies, dancing, and the list goes on, that there are gray area's in life, that individually we are to put "OUR own" spin on for ourselves, not to hold anyone else to our own oppinions, because God says it's between Him and the individual. Whe we decide something we do or don't do, then that is sin, no matter what anyone else has decided for themselves.

God is really cool in this area, because it allows us to form a personal relationship with Him in  a deeper way, and allows us to be an "individual" with Him, where there are our own issues. We're different from others, and we're not meant to feel like we should fit in the same box and mold as everyone else. There is no one size fits all Christian in the gray area's.

I love that about God .

The things that God directly talks about as sin there's no question  about, unless you're trying to justify doing something God forbids. BUT... again one of the things I love about God and the gray area's, is there are freedoms to pray and seek God out, read His word, seek council, and ask Him to speak to our heart, and we  can come here and ask others, get advise, but ultimately it's between God and me and my conscience, about what is sin in the questionable area's of my life, that God doesn't speak directly about in His word, but can speak to us through the Holy Spirit who lives inside of us.

That is not only very personal, but so full of freedom to be myself with God, and the reward is being so full of peace and contentment and "TRUST" of the Father in His love for me and all of us, and it free's me up from "Judging other's, and telling people how they should live in those un-spoken area's, when in reality, if we all admitted it, we don't even have enough time to really do a good enough job just on ourselves - THE OL' LOG IN THE EYE THING  

Remember that Gods word isn't about rules and regulation, that's legalism, but about how much He loves us and wants to protect us from our doing the wrong thing and having to suffer the consequences, as well as the obvious, that He wants us to learn to be Holy and learn to want that holiness for ourselves, so that we can not only have the life He wants for us today and the future here on earth, but we can have an "eternal relationship" with Him because of how very much He loves us, and wants our very best clear into "Eternity"  .

Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.   Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Masturbation outside (marriage with your spouse) is a lack of self control.

What else is a lack of self control?

Fornication, adultery.

Anger, murder.

We  must do all we can to root out the sin before it grows.  If you can not control the desire when it is masturbation, what else can you not control?


How does the murdered start?  Thoughts...

How does the fornicator start?  Thoughts..


Just as the word of God starts like a seed, so does sin.


If a murderer would of stopped thoughts of murder, then the murder would not of occured.

I don't think there are any rules prohibiting it, we each have to decide for ourselves if the act is emotionally and spiritually healthy or not. 

I will admit that while single,  things kinda escalated for me, so I purchased an 'item'.  The immediate feeling? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.   The feeling 20 minutes later?   Sad, low and maybe a sense that I had dishonoured God in some way.   I couldn't realistically go from that,  to then spending time with God, in prayer.   I felt like I needed to apologise.  I didn't immediately dispense with said item and returned to it, despite the low feeling.  One night in a church meeting, I felt like God convicted me of it...so I went home and it went in the garbage (the things garbage collectors must find!!!!    )

For me, it distanced me from God.  I would simply never say to someone else, 'it's wrong, it's sinful' because I honestly don't know if it is.  But for me, it wasn't the right way to deal with things.

Quote from: happypromises on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 04:48:30
For me, it distanced me from God.  I would simply never say to someone else, 'it's wrong, it's sinful' because I honestly don't know if it is.  But for me, it wasn't the right way to deal with things.

It takes a lot of discipline, it can take years to be in control of ourselves. I have no desire for sex therefore I don't masturbate. Was I always like this, no. Nor did I feel guilty but one day I was just free from it, I just thought I want to stop this and it did. God's power is amazing. The lack of desire doesn't make it the least bit unpleasurable with my husband either.

My husband doesn't masturbate either, it can be extremely painful for a man because his arousal is an anatomical reaction. We aren't animals that need to find something to hump really fast, even dogs do this to our legs.

My prayers go out to people struggling with this issue.

QuoteI will admit that while single,  things kinda escalated for me, so I purchased an 'item'.  The immediate feeling? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.   The feeling 20 minutes later?   Sad, low and maybe a sense that I had dishonoured God in some way.

An interesting testimonial that I believe was misinterpreted.

On a similar vein, the List owner of the christian site devoted to marital sex (www.themarriagebed.com) had a situation come up in his (at that time) home church in Austin TX. A highschool girl felt the need to masturbate frequently but afterward had deep gut-level pangs of guilt.  Her solution: teach her boyfriend how to manually satisfy her.  No more guilty pangs. When the boy confessed what was going on, Paul B got involved and found out the whole story.

His question to the board was why did she feel so guilty doing that alone but NOT when doing it with someone else, the 2nd situation being clearly the more sinful. After much prayer and consideration, I came to the opinion that since the bible tells us that sex is to take husband and wife and make them 1, and even casual sexual intercourse can do the same thing (in 1 Cor Paul says it happens when going to a prostitute) so there is something about sexual acts that drive us to be unified with someone.  "M" is by definition alone so there is no one there to join in unity with.  So I emailed Paul B with my opinion that it is not real guilt but a deep feeling of being alone in the act that the devil tries to convince us is the Holy Spirit condemning us with guilt. If it had actually  been the Holy Spirit convicting her, that would have INCREASED as she added someone else (the boyfriend) into her sin. But since it was an emptiness from being alone, once another is there, that is gone.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.   Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 00:27:47

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.   Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

I think masturbation isn't a good idea, but Bitter Sweet is right: Onan's action was much more similar to a man using a condom during sex than masturbation.

Your reasoning was that God's response to his sin was different than the law's penalty for not providing offspring for one's brother, but if you're really bent on following that logic, you have to ask why God didn't strike dead everyone ELSE who masturbated before or since.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 22:55:11

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 00:27:47

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.   Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

I think masturbation isn't a good idea, but Bitter Sweet is right: Onan's action was much more similar to a man using a condom during sex than masturbation.

Your reasoning was that God's response to his sin was different than the law's penalty for not providing offspring for one's brother, but if you're really bent on following that logic, you have to ask why God didn't strike dead everyone ELSE who masturbated before or since.

He may have we don't know because the OT doesn't record an act of masturbation before or after Onan. However we do see how God continued to offer death to those who violated the sacred act of sex. Sodom and Gomorrah was wiped off the face of the earth for its fornicating habits.

Genesis 38 is enough to make my needs bend in submission before God. Others seem to want to find any excuse to keep to their own habits.

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 23:01:02

Quote from: Cally on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 22:55:11

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 00:27:47

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.   Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

I think masturbation isn't a good idea, but Bitter Sweet is right: Onan's action was much more similar to a man using a condom during sex than masturbation.

Your reasoning was that God's response to his sin was different than the law's penalty for not providing offspring for one's brother, but if you're really bent on following that logic, you have to ask why God didn't strike dead everyone ELSE who masturbated before or since.

He may have we don't know because the OT doesnot record an act of masturbation before or after Onan. However we do see how God co to he'd to offer death to those who violated the sacred act of sex. Sodom and Gomorrah was wiped off the face of the earth for its fornicating habits.

Genesis 38 is enough to make my needs bend in submission before God. Others seem to want to find any excuse to keep to their own habits.

Well my reasoning is just different than yours, I suppose. Based on the principle of sexual immorality, I see masturbation as a disrespect to oneself which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

It's strange, I usually hear sexual immorality discussed entirely in terms of the disrespect of women ("she has no self-respect" or "he has no respect for her) or a sin against one's spouse. But there are a lot of things culturally that make it difficult to understand, for men especially, what could be wrong with it. Quite simply, it's they could stand to hear what women are being told. Men AREN'T taught the value of self-respect, and they aren't respected. That's why I used to find it hard to figure out in understanding what was wrong with sexual immorality in general. Culture didn't give me a good reason: only God's teaching to me and scriptures that people hardly ever use anymore.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 23:13:56

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 23:01:02

Quote from: Cally on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 22:55:11

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 00:27:47

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.   Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

I think masturbation isn't a good idea, but Bitter Sweet is right: Onan's action was much more similar to a man using a condom during sex than masturbation.

Your reasoning was that God's response to his sin was different than the law's penalty for not providing offspring for one's brother, but if you're really bent on following that logic, you have to ask why God didn't strike dead everyone ELSE who masturbated before or since.

He may have we don't know because the OT doesnot record an act of masturbation before or after Onan. However we do see how God co to he'd to offer death to those who violated the sacred act of sex. Sodom and Gomorrah was wiped off the face of the earth for its fornicating habits.

Genesis 38 is enough to make my needs bend in submission before God. Others seem to want to find any excuse to keep to their own habits.

Well my reasoning is just different than yours, I suppose. Based on the principle of sexual immorality, I see masturbation as a disrespect to oneself which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

It's strange, I usually hear sexual immorality discussed entirely in terms of the disrespect of women ("she has no self-respect" or "he has no respect for her) or a sin against one's spouse. But there are a lot of things culturally that make it difficult to understand, for men especially, what could be wrong with it. Quite simply, it's they could stand to hear what women are being told. Men AREN'T taught the value of self-respect, and they aren't respected. That's why I used to find it hard to figure out in understanding what was wrong with sexual immorality in general. Culture didn't give me a good reason: only God's teaching to me and scriptures that people hardly ever use anymore.

I can totally relate. In my neighborhood what was regarded as disrespectful and scandalous for women was considered a rite of passage for the young men.

But when I began to read the Holy Scriptures I began to more seriously acknowledge that not only were those disrespectful to us as individuals but to God who claimed out bodies as His Temple.

I believe that this later status of the redeemed is why God dealt so harshly with Onan's masturbation and sexual immorality as a whole.

So if a man has sex with a virgin and pulls out before ejaculation he wasn't having sex with her just masturbating and she is still a virgin?

That is exactly what my 10 year old thought during sex ed, she said she will remain a virgin by using a condom.  

Please don't tell me you honestly believe this. Masturbation is something totally different and some of us do prefer to be in control over that and not let it rule our lives but pulling out is not the same as masturbation. A lot of people use that as a birth control method, just like condoms.

I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

Quote from: happypromises on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 04:48:30
I don't think there are any rules prohibiting it, we each have to decide for ourselves if the act is emotionally and spiritually healthy or not. 

I will admit that while single,  things kinda escalated for me, so I purchased an 'item'.  The immediate feeling? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.   The feeling 20 minutes later?   Sad, low and maybe a sense that I had dishonoured God in some way.   I couldn't realistically go from that,  to then spending time with God, in prayer.   I felt like I needed to apologise.  I didn't immediately dispense with said item and returned to it, despite the low feeling.  One night in a church meeting, I felt like God convicted me of it...so I went home and it went in the garbage (the things garbage collectors must find!!!!    )

For me, it distanced me from God.  I would simply never say to someone else, 'it's wrong, it's sinful' because I honestly don't know if it is.  But for me, it wasn't the right way to deal with things.

^^^Well said. I have the same conviction....

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37
I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

I apologize, I didn't realize that's what men do. But even so I don't think this applies to strictly masturbating. Is this the only scripture you find remotely close to masturbation being an abomination?

I'm not trying to debate you, I think that's great that you endorse that kind of control over the body, I do too, it is one of the greatest freedoms to not be slaves to our own bodies.