Christian Forums

Quote from: Johnb on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 16:26:06
Now as to the claim that Joseph Smiths "wives" were platonic and just for eternity. (Sorry but that line is impossible to believe)

What is the purpose of eternal marriage when the NT clearly teaches there will be no marriage in the here after.

Matt 22
25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

27And last of all the woman died also.

28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This is repeated in all 3 gospels.

Boy...this blows their temple ritual wedding ceremony for eternity in their celestial kingdom right out of the water

Sorry for the delay, everyone. I just got back from classes and I'll try to get to as many questions here as possible.

Now as for the following:

QuoteGunslinger
Here is the question I have.  (If you have answered it elsewhere forgive me.)   Do you believe one can be a Christian without the BofM?

I definitely believe it is possible to be a Christian without accepting the Book of Mormon. Rejecting this book only means that you are not a Mormon. For me, all it takes to be a Christian is to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God--however you may interpret it--and that you accept him as your savior. Nearly everyone on this board believes as such, and I consider them all to be Christian. It's not my place to try and determine who is and is not one. So as long as they meet the above criteria, I classify someone as such.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 19:01:48
Sorry for the delay, everyone. I just got back from classes and I'll try to get to as many questions here as possible.

Now as for the following:

QuoteGunslinger
Here is the question I have.  (If you have answered it elsewhere forgive me.)   Do you believe one can be a Christian without the BofM?

I definitely believe it is possible to be a Christian without accepting the Book of Mormon. Rejecting this book only means that you are not a Mormon. For me, all it takes to be a Christian is to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God--however you may interpret it--and that you accept him as your savior.

Yep...that is all it takes; yet you like billions of others want to believe (the lie)...that there is something more

Gunslinger
The obvious question is: If I can be a Christian and go to heaven without the B of M why do you want or need it??

Quote
Boy...this blows their temple ritual wedding ceremony for eternity in their celestial kingdom right out of the water

Not really.

Looking at that specific passage, it is important to note that it is referencing a specific example. I'm not sure if it was meant to be applied to all cases.

And look at the next part; it says that in the resurrection, none will marry or be given in marriage. It specifically says In the Resurrection. It says nothing about dissolving marriages that occurred prior to the resurrection, nor does it say there will be no marriage after it.

But let me ask this, then...am I to understand it that the "Orthodox" Christian stance is that we will not be with our families in Heaven? That seems kind of depressing, and far from what most would consider heaven.

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 19:10:40

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 19:01:48
Sorry for the delay, everyone. I just got back from classes and I'll try to get to as many questions here as possible.

Now as for the following:

QuoteGunslinger
Here is the question I have.  (If you have answered it elsewhere forgive me.)   Do you believe one can be a Christian without the BofM?

I definitely believe it is possible to be a Christian without accepting the Book of Mormon. Rejecting this book only means that you are not a Mormon. For me, all it takes to be a Christian is to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God--however you may interpret it--and that you accept him as your savior.

Yep...that is all it takes; yet you like billions of others want to believe (the lie)...that there is something more

Um, I never stated otherwise. According to this definition, a definition you apparently seem to agree with, I am a Christian, since I accept Christ as the Son of God, and my personal Savior. If this is all it takes, why, then, are Mormons excluded from being called Christian? This is central to our theology.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 19:55:53

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 19:10:40

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 19:01:48
Sorry for the delay, everyone. I just got back from classes and I'll try to get to as many questions here as possible.

Now as for the following:

QuoteGunslinger
Here is the question I have.  (If you have answered it elsewhere forgive me.)   Do you believe one can be a Christian without the BofM?

I definitely believe it is possible to be a Christian without accepting the Book of Mormon. Rejecting this book only means that you are not a Mormon. For me, all it takes to be a Christian is to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God--however you may interpret it--and that you accept him as your savior.

Yep...that is all it takes; yet you like billions of others want to believe (the lie)...that there is something more

Um, I never stated otherwise. According to this definition, a definition you apparently seem to agree with, I am a Christian, since I accept Christ as the Son of God, and my personal Savior. If this is all it takes, why, then, are Mormons excluded from being called Christian? This is central to our theology.

The better question...if the Bible gives us all we need to have eternal life; why the book of Mormon?

QuoteThe better question...if the Bible gives us all we need to have eternal life; why the book of Mormon?

The short answer is: Because the Bible is incomplete. The Holy Bible contains fully the gospel message, that is, Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that he died for our sins. But much of the more mysterious parts of the Bible are difficult to understand.

As for why we need the Book of Mormon? It serves to strengthen the testimony of the gospel message. Two witnesses are better than one, wouldn't you agree? It also serves as a reminder that God loves and knows all of his children; it shows that he did not leave the rest of the world in spiritual darkness, without divine guidance. And it also stands as a witness to the prophetic mission of Joseph Smith. As such, it is the keystone of the Mormon faith. If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is God's church. If the Book of Mormon is false, then the entire religion cannot stand. In my opinion, the Book of Mormon's primary objective is to serve as a witness of Jesus Christ and of His church. But more importantly, as does the Bible, this book of scripture can help bring you closer to God. By following its precepts, listening to its stories, one can gain an abundance of life. I've read through it multiple times and with each successive reading, I feel closer to God. That by itself is reason enough to read it.

But I guess I can pose a similar question to you? Why the need for four gospels? Isn't one enough? Mathew already testifies of Jesus Christ, why do we then need Mark's testimony as well? And, if the Bible as compiled is sufficient, why then did Christ himself quote from other books not contained within the Bible?

QuoteOf course Jesus is referring to His being one in essence with God the Father, why do you suppose they picked up stones to try and kill Him for blaspheme? Those who knew their Bible understood very well what He was proclaiming.

My purpose for bringing this up is to show that Christ proclaiming that he and his father are one in no way means definitively that they are one in essence, since he used the very same phrasing to describe the way in which all members are to be one, one in purpose, not essence.

QuoteJesus was praying that His followers, all Christians, would function in a relational oneness in the one Body of Christ, in like manner as He and the Father functioned in relational oneness in the Oneness of the Trinitarian Godhead. Christians have the privilege of participating in the inter-relational oneness of the Triune Go

d.

That was my point. Christ wanted his followers to act as one, in purpose, being unified. I'm just trying to explain that this is the oneness shared by the Father and the Son; they are not one in substance or essence.

QuoteI have specifically laid out what the Trinity is numerous times already. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are not, and have never been, separate. God is One.

I realize that you have laid out what the Trinity is, the problem is that it makes no sense, nor is there sufficient scriptural evidence for it to be used as a litmus test for salvation or for being considered Christian. I don't believe you intended to say that God separated, exactly, but if the Father and Son are both fully God, but they are separate personages themselves, in different locations, it becomes difficult to really know what that even means.

QuoteYour "working knowledge" needs work. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. Stop, and ponder that for a minute. The reason you do not understand is because you reject the foundational truths of real Christianity.

The Trinity did not become the foundation of Christianity until the fourth century. If it is so foundational, it seems as though a prophet, an apostle, Christ himself would have shown such a belief. They do not. I do not reject the foundation of Christianity, the foundation is that Jesus is the SON of God, not God himself. It is a logical impossibility to be your own Son. Furthermore, as I've already illustrated to you, by Christ's own words, the Father and Son are not equal. Christ proclaimed that the father was greater than he was. To say that they are both equal still would be like saying that 5=7. You have to see why it's difficult to accept that the father and son are both One God, when the son, Jesus proclaimed rather boldly that the Father is "His God." I'll ask this. How can it be that the Father and Son are equally "One God" when the Father is Greater than the Son, and God to the Son? This defies any semblance of logic.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 20:15:59But I guess I can pose a similar question to you? Why the need for four gospels? Isn't one enough? Mathew already testifies of Jesus Christ, why do we then need Mark's testimony as well? And, if the Bible as compiled is sufficient, why then did Christ himself quote from other books not contained within the Bible?

To witness of the Life of God on this earth in the person of Jesus Christ; to prove that He walked this earth, died for our sins, rose again...this proves that He was God and has finished the work.

Anyone who adds to this makes God a liar; I trust the God that rose again...and gives us His Spirit.  I am not just close to Him...He is in me; His love and life is in me for eternity.  Through Him...all things are made clear as we "give ourself up", abandon, yield...as we love Him, He lives through us...the fruits of the Spirit.  It is all Him, He saves us, He gives us faith, He gives us His love, wait......He is the love, He is the faith, He is the hope that lives in and through us...His children.

Rules, codes, abstaining from, rituals, garments...will all perish with us, because they are based on human commands and teachings....but lack any value at restraining sensual indulgence.

Hey...I have a Bible verses that speak to this!

Colossians 2:20-23...Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle!  Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Value for restraining...is through the Holy Spirit and in no other way: you blasphemy God, by rules...codes...you take away what He can do for you and through you.  He does not give us the power, He is the power...not to abstain; but to love one another.  Love does no harm to a neighbor...therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

QuoteTo witness of the Life of God on this earth in the person of Jesus Christ; to prove that He walked this earth, died for our sins, rose again...this proves that He was God and has finished the work.

Exactly! This is exactly what the Book of Mormon does.

QuoteAnyone who adds to this makes God a liar; I trust the God that rose again...and gives us His Spirit.  I am not just close to Him...He is in me; His love and life is in me for eternity.  Through Him...all things are made clear as we "give ourself up", abandon, yield...as we love Him, He lives through us...the fruits of the Spirit.  It is all Him, He saves us, He gives us faith, He gives us His love, wait......He is the love, He is the faith, He is the hope that lives in and through us...His children.

Certainly,anyone who adds to this is attempting to make God a liar. And I am in agreement, men should not add to God's word, that's partly why I reject such notions as the Trinity, doctrines concocted by Men who voted on them in councils. They added to God's word, most definitely.

But God certainly is allowed to add to his word himself, isn't he? To say that he can no longer give us scripture or speak to us is placing limitations on God. I believe God is without limitations, and can give us all the scripture he wants. And I will eagerly read them.

QuoteRules, codes, abstaining from, rituals, garments...will all perish with us, because they are based on human commands and teachings....but lack any value at restraining sensual indulgence.

Hey...I have a Bible verses that speak to this!

Colossians 2:20-23...Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle!  Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

The problem with this verse, is that it is speaking specifically to the "Principles of this world." Clearly, those are not important. But rules that come from God, why that is a different matter. If God tells us to abstain from coffee, for example, that is not a principle of the world, that is a commandment of God, and only the foolish blatantly ignore God's commandments.

I've brought it up in our previous correspondences and I'll do so here, since I've never gotten a response. If rules and commandments are not needed, why then did Christ tell his disciples to keep the commandments if they wish to enter into heaven? Why did he say "If you love me, keep my Commandments?" Certainly, you believe we should love the Lord, and we show it by obeying him. And further, Revelation specifically says that we will be judged according to our works. If works are of no consequence, why then are we judged based on them? And then there's James's "Faith without works is Dead" speech. How can dead faith save us? It cannot, therefore works are essential to making our faith complete.

QuoteValue for restraining...is through the Holy Spirit; no other way...you blasphemy God, by rules...codes...you take away what He can do for you and through you.  He does not give us the power, He is the power...not to abstain; but to love one another.  Love does no harm to a neighbor...therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

So now I "blaspheme" God? Let me ask you this, say we are wrong, and not a single good work is required of us. Are you saying that God will hold it against us because we tried too hard to be good? Will that keep someone out of heaven?

Gunslinger

2 points.
On the question of marriage.  In all 3 gospels it is talking about a woman who's husband died and obeying the law she married his brother this happened 7 times then she died.  These marriages took place here on earth not in heaven.  The ask who's wife she would be and were told there would be no marriage in heaven.  This is a clear passage and does not apply to just a specific example.  Like wise if a man has more than one wife the answer is the same there will be no marriage in heaven.  Yes there will be relationships in heaven but different than here.  I don't know how God will handle the problems like how will I not grieve over those close to me that are not there.
The attempt to continue the sexual relations of this life in heaven is a clear indication that the B of M is from the mind of Joesph Smith and the doctrine is clearly lifted by Sidney Rigdon from the Campbells.

Second point
I have actually read he B of M and found it to be almost comical in places.  It IMO clearly does not add anything to the bible and therefore is of no value in my walk with Christ.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 20:44:13
So now I "blaspheme" God? Let me ask you this, say we are wrong, and not a single good work is required of us. Are you saying that God will hold it against us because we tried too hard to be good? Will that keep someone out of heaven?

Yes...that is what I am saying; your good works will only gain you hell...

We need the Holy Spirit of God working in our life.  And the only way we can receive the Holy Spirit is by receiving Jesus Christ and trusting in Him alone for salvation.  Everything points back to the cross where Jesus finished the work; God...in human flesh died for our sins...was made sin...on our behalf...and shook the foundations of Hell...because His work was now complete. 

Then...He rose again; I put my full trust in Jesus who was raised from the dead.  My life is His, I love Him...and He lives in me; my salvation is secure...eternal life is mine...and it is not because of me or any good works that I do.  It is all Him; and His works through me...it is never a question of what can I do for God...but, am I any value to God.  Can I move myself to the back corner of my heart...and leave impressions of Him?  Those intimate with Jesus...will never leave impression of themself, or their works...rather, His love flows from them...as Jesus helps Himself to them, NOW those works...have value!

Quote2 points.
On the question of marriage.  In all 3 gospels it is talking about a woman who's husband died and obeying the law she married his brother this happened 7 times then she died.  These marriages took place here on earth not in heaven.  The ask who's wife she would be and were told there would be no marriage in heaven.  This is a clear passage and does not apply to just a specific example.  Like wise if a man has more than one wife the answer is the same there will be no marriage in heaven.  Yes there will be relationships in heaven but different than here.  I don't know how God will handle the problems like how will I not grieve over those close to me that are not there.

In relation to my interpretation, I could be wrong on it being a specific example, but that does not affect the efficacy of my position. The verse you posted clearly states that they will not be married in the resurrection. On top of that, we have no idea what the specifics of this marriage was. Maybe the wife was not sealed to any of the husbands by someone holding the Priesthood.

You seem to be in agreement with me that there will be a continued relationship; as far as I'm concerned, this is a semantics issue. Why does it matter if it's literally called marriage, or whether it's called something else. Either way, the message is clear. "Families can be Together Forever." I'd hardly think a loving God would tear asunder such loving relationships.

Quote
The attempt to continue the sexual relations of this life in heaven is a clear indication that the B of M is from the mind of Joesph Smith and the doctrine is clearly lifted by Sidney Rigdon from the Campbells.

Well, if we want to get technical, the Book of Mormon does not reference eternal marriage. One needs to read the Doctrine and Covenants to familiarize himself with it. I also feel that I should point out that, to my knowledge, it says nothing about sexual relations, only that we will have eternal increase. Members of the church can't even agree on what exactly that means. Personally, I don't think "having an increase" will be the same in heaven as it is on earth.

And that old tired theory that Rigdon wrote the religious parts of the Book of Mormon is considered laughable by most historical experts. Rigdon had never even seen a Book of Mormon until the missionary Parley P. Pratt personally gave him one on October 15th, 1830. Every single account affirms that no bond was formed between Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon until after the church was founded and the Book of Mormon was already published. You also have Cowdery's testimony, who was with Smith when he translated the Book of Mormon. There are simply too many witnesses for this to be plausible.

This theory didn't arise until 1834 when Philastur Hurlbut put it forth, as a way of explaining how an unlearned farm boy was able to write such a complex text. He claimed a connection between Rigdon and a lost Solomon Spaulding manuscript believed to be the basis for this theory. But once this manuscript turned up, Hurlbut decided against publishing it because it "did not read as he expected." This theory fell apart shortly thereafter, and it is considered highly un-credible.

QuoteSecond point
I have actually read he B of M and found it to be almost comical in places.  It IMO clearly does not add anything to the bible and therefore is of no value in my walk with Christ.
   

It's fine if it did not work for you. However, I am probably correct in assuming you went into it with a heavy bias against it. I doubt it gets a fair chance when the reader does not give it a chance of being true.

For me, the experience is different. It brings me closer to Christ, I feel his love more abundantly, it brings to me a joy beyond compare, and for that reason alone, it is well worth it.

But I definitely do not thing it is comical. I could never think scripture is comical.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 20:27:06

QuoteOf course Jesus is referring to His being one in essence with God the Father, why do you suppose they picked up stones to try and kill Him for blaspheme? Those who knew their Bible understood very well what He was proclaiming.

My purpose for bringing this up is to show that Christ proclaiming that he and his father are one in no way means definitively that they are one in essence, since he used the very same phrasing to describe the way in which all members are to be one, one in purpose, not essence.

QuoteJesus was praying that His followers, all Christians, would function in a relational oneness in the one Body of Christ, in like manner as He and the Father functioned in relational oneness in the Oneness of the Trinitarian Godhead. Christians have the privilege of participating in the inter-relational oneness of the Triune Go

d.

That was my point. Christ wanted his followers to act as one, in purpose, being unified. I'm just trying to explain that this is the oneness shared by the Father and the Son; they are not one in substance or essence.

QuoteI have specifically laid out what the Trinity is numerous times already. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are not, and have never been, separate. God is One.

I realize that you have laid out what the Trinity is, the problem is that it makes no sense, nor is there sufficient scriptural evidence for it to be used as a litmus test for salvation or for being considered Christian. I don't believe you intended to say that God separated, exactly, but if the Father and Son are both fully God, but they are separate personages themselves, in different locations, it becomes difficult to really know what that even means.

QuoteYour "working knowledge" needs work. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. Stop, and ponder that for a minute. The reason you do not understand is because you reject the foundational truths of real Christianity.

The Trinity did not become the foundation of Christianity until the fourth century. If it is so foundational, it seems as though a prophet, an apostle, Christ himself would have shown such a belief. They do not. I do not reject the foundation of Christianity, the foundation is that Jesus is the SON of God, not God himself. It is a logical impossibility to be your own Son. Furthermore, as I've already illustrated to you, by Christ's own words, the Father and Son are not equal. Christ proclaimed that the father was greater than he was. To say that they are both equal still would be like saying that 5=7. You have to see why it's difficult to accept that the father and son are both One God, when the son, Jesus proclaimed rather boldly that the Father is "His God." I'll ask this. How can it be that the Father and Son are equally "One God" when the Father is Greater than the Son, and God to the Son? This defies any semblance of logic.

And everything you have written here is the very reason that Christianity will never accept LDS as Christian. You asked if LDS was a Christian religion, the answer is no. It is a religion, but it is not Christian...and your very words explain why that is so. It doesn't matter if it is logical to you. All that matters is that you must believe in the real Jesus Christ of Christianity not the imaginary Jesus of LDS in order to be one of us, in order to be a Christian. That's just the way it is.

QuoteYes...that is what I am saying; your good works will only gain you hell...

Wait, so God punishes you for doing good? My goodness, that does not sound like a loving God at all. But just to humor me, tell me where in the Bible it says someone goes to hell for doing good works.

Quote

We need the Holy Spirit of God working in our life.  And the only way we can receive the Holy Spirit is by receiving Jesus Christ and trusting in Him alone for salvation.  Everything points back to the cross where Jesus finished the work; God...in human flesh died for our sins...was made sin...on our behalf...and shook the foundations of Hell...because His work was now complete.

Agree with most of it, only I believe Jesus is the Son of God. Other than that it seems right.

Quote
Then...He rose again; I put my full trust in Jesus who was raised from the dead.  My life is His, I love Him...and He lives in me; my salvation is secure...eternal life is mine...and it is not because of me or any good works that I do.  It is all Him; and His works through me...it is never a question of what can I do for God...but, am I any value to God.  Can I move myself to the back corner of my heart...and leave impressions of Him?  Those intimate with Jesus...will never leave impression of themself, or their works...rather, His love flows from them...as Jesus helps Himself to them, NOW those works...have value!

This is a good testimony you gave of your relationship with Christ. I think what you fail to see is that I also have a solid relationship. I know I am not going to hell because I have the audacity to do good works. I am still curious how you interpret scriptures that explicitly state that works are needed. If they are not, why are we judged based on them then? And again, can dead faith save us?

QuoteAnd everything you have written here is the very reason that Christianity will never accept LDS as Christian. You asked if LDS was a Christian religion, the answer is no. It is a religion, but it is not Christian...and your very words explain why that is so. It doesn't matter if it is logical to you. All that matters is that you must believe in the real Jesus Christ of Christianity not the imaginary Jesus of LDS in order to be one of us, in order to be a Christian. That's just the way it is.

Yet you fail to give biblical support for your position. If I am wrong, show me how God can be his own son. Show me, according to the Trinitarian interpretation, how the father and son are one god, if the Father is God to the Son. Tell me how they are co-equal if Christ proclaimed that the Father is greater than he is? How can someone who is greater be equal?

I do believe in the real Jesus of Christianity, the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus that proclaimed he is the Son of God, come to do the will of his Father, who is greater than he is. My position is the Biblical position. You disagree, but can  give no evidence to support your claim.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 21:30:11

QuoteAnd everything you have written here is the very reason that Christianity will never accept LDS as Christian. You asked if LDS was a Christian religion, the answer is no. It is a religion, but it is not Christian...and your very words explain why that is so. It doesn't matter if it is logical to you. All that matters is that you must believe in the real Jesus Christ of Christianity not the imaginary Jesus of LDS in order to be one of us, in order to be a Christian. That's just the way it is.

Yet you fail to give biblical support for your position. If I am wrong, show me how God can be his own son. Show me, according to the Trinitarian interpretation, how the father and son are one god, if the Father is God to the Son. Tell me how they are co-equal if Christ proclaimed that the Father is greater than he is? How can someone who is greater be equal?

I do believe in the real Jesus of Christianity, the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus that proclaimed he is the Son of God, come to do the will of his Father, who is greater than he is. My position is the Biblical position. You disagree, but can  give no evidence to support your claim.

If you believed in the real Jesus Christ of Christianity, you would know He is God. All of your protests against Him will not serve you well when you stand before Him....but still, you will bow your knee to Him as God.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 21:24:43

QuoteYes...that is what I am saying; your good works will only gain you hell...

Wait, so God punishes you for doing good? My goodness, that does not sound like a loving God at all. But just to humor me, tell me where in the Bible it says someone goes to hell for doing good works.

Quote

We need the Holy Spirit of God working in our life.  And the only way we can receive the Holy Spirit is by receiving Jesus Christ and trusting in Him alone for salvation.  Everything points back to the cross where Jesus finished the work; God...in human flesh died for our sins...was made sin...on our behalf...and shook the foundations of Hell...because His work was now complete.

Agree with most of it, only I believe Jesus is the Son of God. Other than that it seems right.

Quote
Then...He rose again; I put my full trust in Jesus who was raised from the dead.  My life is His, I love Him...and He lives in me; my salvation is secure...eternal life is mine...and it is not because of me or any good works that I do.  It is all Him; and His works through me...it is never a question of what can I do for God...but, am I any value to God.  Can I move myself to the back corner of my heart...and leave impressions of Him?  Those intimate with Jesus...will never leave impression of themself, or their works...rather, His love flows from them...as Jesus helps Himself to them, NOW those works...have value!

This is a good testimony you gave of your relationship with Christ. I think what you fail to see is that I also have a solid relationship. I know I am not going to hell because I have the audacity to do good works. I am still curious how you interpret scriptures that explicitly state that works are needed. If they are not, why are we judged based on them then? And again, can dead faith save us?

You base your faith on a man Jesus; a brother of satan...a Jesus that earned godhood through what he did; that faith is dead already!

We base our faith on a living God, Jesus...who was raised from the dead and has given us His Spirit; our faith is alive through the narrow door Himself!  He is the faith we have, the works we have...it is all HIM.

You will not see me say I did this or I did that or I earned my way by my good works...sorry friend; your faith is as dead as the works you proclaim...

Gunslinger
When I was a CoC preacher I met a LDS guy and in our discussions I thought "wait this guy is stealing my lines".  Example We did not establish a church but restored the church of the first century.  The theology of restoration was clearly lifted from the Campbells and other RM folks that predated the B of M and your church.  That with the fact that Rigdon was the vice president and official spokesman for the Smith movement.

I would not say that starting nearly every passage in a book with "It came to pass... and in many places clearly takes KJV language and slightly changing stories is proof of it being from God.  It fails every traditional test of a canon type book.

gunslinger: "Um, I never stated otherwise. According to this definition, a definition you apparently seem to agree with, I am a Christian, since I accept Christ as the Son of God, and my personal Savior. If this is all it takes, why, then, are Mormons excluded from being called Christian? This is central to our theology."

Very astutely put gunslinger.....9 out of 10 on this forum will tell you that is how they accepted Christ.

Thankfuldad wrote:

We need the Holy Spirit of God working in our life.  And the only way we can receive the Holy Spirit is by receiving Jesus Christ and trusting in Him alone for salvation.  Everything points back to the cross where Jesus finished the work; God...in human flesh died for our sins...was made sin...on our behalf...and shook the foundations of Hell...because His work was now complete.

ChristNU wrote:
I do believe in the real Jesus of Christianity, the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus that proclaimed he is the Son of God, come to do the will of his Father, who is greater than he is. My position is the Biblical position. You disagree, but can  give no evidence to support your claim.


As I read it, gunslinger agrees with both quotes....gunslinger's "belief" is his support that Jesus is the Son of God,
and his personal Savior. His answer runs parallel with Thankfuldad and ChristNU's testimony.

Standing in the alley throwing rocks at one another over who believes the most is rather a
futile expedition in sub conscious feed back.

Now Gunslinger I will get some flaming arrows in my direction.  I reject the Bof M and everything it stands for.  I believe it is a false prophecy from a delusional man who sought power and used religion to fulfill his carnal sexual desires.
All that being said I can not say those in the LDS who truly accept Christ as their savior are not Christians any more than those today that have delusions of actually talking with God.  It is not my place to judge what error God will or will not accept.
I do wish you could see the B of M in the light of real history and become a better servant of Christ.  It was difficult for me to understand the error of the group I was with in their claims that they had restored the NT church and only their members were actually Christians.

Quote from: pointmade on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 06:07:38
gunslinger: "Um, I never stated otherwise. According to this definition, a definition you apparently seem to agree with, I am a Christian, since I accept Christ as the Son of God, and my personal Savior. If this is all it takes, why, then, are Mormons excluded from being called Christian? This is central to our theology."

Very astutely put gunslinger.....9 out of 10 on this forum will tell you that is how they accepted Christ.

Thankfuldad wrote:

We need the Holy Spirit of God working in our life.  And the only way we can receive the Holy Spirit is by receiving Jesus Christ and trusting in Him alone for salvation.  Everything points back to the cross where Jesus finished the work; God...in human flesh died for our sins...was made sin...on our behalf...and shook the foundations of Hell...because His work was now complete.

ChristNU wrote:
I do believe in the real Jesus of Christianity, the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus that proclaimed he is the Son of God, come to do the will of his Father, who is greater than he is. My position is the Biblical position. You disagree, but can  give no evidence to support your claim.


As I read it, gunslinger agrees with both quotes....gunslinger's "belief" is his support that Jesus is the Son of God,
and his personal Savior. His answer runs parallel with Thankfuldad and ChristNU's testimony.

Standing in the alley throwing rocks at one another over who believes the most is rather a
futile expedition in sub conscious feed back.

First of all that is not my quote, but gunslinger's. Second, apparently you are unaware of the Jesus of LDS and/or the Jesus of Christianity...my Jesus. Otherwise you could never make the statement that his answer runs parallel to my testimony. We are not throwing rocks, we are correcting the erroneous beliefs that gunslinger has been indoctrinated into with the truth.

QuoteIf you believed in the real Jesus Christ of Christianity, you would know He is God. All of your protests against Him will not serve you well when you stand before Him....but still, you will bow your knee to Him as God

I don't believe in the real Jesus? Really? I've already stated that I believe Jesus is the Son of God, my Savior. This is the Jesus I believe in. Are you saying that this is inaccurate?

Quote
apparently you are unaware of the Jesus of LDS and/or the Jesus of Christianity...my Jesus. Otherwise you could never make the statement that his answer runs parallel to my testimony. We are not throwing rocks, we are correcting the erroneous beliefs that gunslinger has been indoctrinated into with the truth.

Again, you throw out vague accusations of me believing in a different Jesus without any scriptural support. I have given ample scriptures to support my position. You are clearly free to disagree with my interpretation, but if you do, you should be able to give me the "correct" interpretation. Like how two personages can be equal if one is greater than the other. Or how the Father and Son are both "One God" if the Bible plainly states that the Father is God to the Son.

QuoteYou base your faith on a man Jesus; a brother of satan...a Jesus that earned godhood through what he did; that faith is dead already!

Aside from being the Spirit brother of Satan (which I've already pointed out is as valid a criticism as saying you worship Satan's father) this is not what we believe. Tell me when I said that Jesus earned his Godhood, because I do not remember ever stating such. Our belief is that Christ was foreordained to be the Savior before he came to earth, that he was born of the Virgin Mary, that he was raised to adulthood, established his church, lived a sinless life, took upon him the sins of the world, was crucified four our sake, was buried, rose on the third day and ascended to the Father where he is now in full glory. How is this any different than what you believe?

Quote
We base our faith on a living God, Jesus...who was raised from the dead and has given us His Spirit; our faith is alive through the narrow door Himself!  He is the faith we have, the works we have...it is all HIM.

Which is exactly my viewpoint. Again, we seem to agree on most issues raised. You are establishing what you think we believe about Jesus and about good works and arguing against those.

QuoteYou will not see me say I did this or I did that or I earned my way by my good works...sorry friend; your faith is as dead as the works you proclaim...

Right. We cannot "earn" our way into heaven. We can only obtain entry because of the acts of The Son, in taking upon himself the sins of the world. That does not mean he doesn't want us to do good works, though. I've shown scriptures that support this. Why are we judged by our works if they are not needed? What's the point of judgment?

And even if you are correct in your assertion, all that you have shown is that works don't matter. Nowhere does the Bible say that one  goes to hell for doing good works. If it does, I'd really like to see that passage.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 07:38:27

QuoteIf you believed in the real Jesus Christ of Christianity, you would know He is God. All of your protests against Him will not serve you well when you stand before Him....but still, you will bow your knee to Him as God

I don't believe in the real Jesus? Really? I've already stated that I believe Jesus is the Son of God, my Savior. This is the Jesus I believe in. Are you saying that this is inaccurate?

Quote
apparently you are unaware of the Jesus of LDS and/or the Jesus of Christianity...my Jesus. Otherwise you could never make the statement that his answer runs parallel to my testimony. We are not throwing rocks, we are correcting the erroneous beliefs that gunslinger has been indoctrinated into with the truth.

Again, you throw out vague accusations of me believing in a different Jesus without any scriptural support. I have given ample scriptures to support my position. You are clearly free to disagree with my interpretation, but if you do, you should be able to give me the "correct" interpretation. Like how two personages can be equal if one is greater than the other. Or how the Father and Son are both "One God" if the Bible plainly states that the Father is God to the Son.

I have no doubt whatsoever that you do in fact believe in the LDS Son of God, the problem is that Son of God is only the fictional construct of a disturbed human mind. You have given ample scriptural support for your lack of understanding of the very scriptures you quote.

For those who seem to be in the dark about what LDS actually believe, here is a small sample courtesy of CARM:

Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation.  It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God's spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8).  This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1:16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is God in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5).  (http://carm.org/is-mormonism-christian)

QuoteWhen I was a CoC preacher I met a LDS guy and in our discussions I thought "wait this guy is stealing my lines".  Example We did not establish a church but restored the church of the first century.  The theology of restoration was clearly lifted from the Campbells and other RM folks that predated the B of M and your church.  That with the fact that Rigdon was the vice president and official spokesman for the Smith movement.

Except Joseph Smith had not met Rigdon or the Cambelites when the LDS movement began. Remember, Smith's story started in 1820. All of the theology had not yet been revealed, but the concept of the restoration was clearly espoused in the First Vision with Christ's proclamation that he should join none of the sects because they were wrong. Not only that, but the Bible even predicts a great apostasy and a restoration.

But even if some tenets of the restoration movement were found in an earlier organization...so what? The church has never claimed that all truth had been taken from the earth. In fact, it is taught that all church's have some truth. The Campbells may have just been right on there being a falling away from New Testament principles. But to say the church is wrong because an earlier group had similar stances would seriously jeopardize the validity of Christianity itself. The concept of a god or demi-god being born of a virgin and preaching salvation is echoed in countless other religious traditions, like ancient Egypt. Or in Hindu traditions, the God Vishnu came to earth as a mortal named Krishna, to minister to the people, which sounds an awful lot like the Traditional Trinitarian view of God.

QuoteI would not say that starting nearly every passage in a book with "It came to pass... and in many places clearly takes KJV language and slightly changing stories is proof of it being from God.  It fails every traditional test of a canon type book.

I don't know if you've ever tried creative writing before, but I do this from time to time, and looking through my work, I find interesting patterns of phrases that I use over and over again. For all we know it is a stylistic feature of the writer. Or it could have been a grammatical issue of the time and culture.

Also, claiming that using King James English proves it is not of divine origin shows a profound lack of understanding in the translation process. God wasn't literally telling Joseph Smith, word for word, what to write. He was only given power to understand what was being said and he was free to put it into his own words. The KJV was the most popular Bible at the time, the one most people were familiar and comfortable with. It would make sense to write the Book of Mormon similarly. After all, it was the only translation of the Bible that most knew, going back several generations.

A little more enlightenment:

Mormonism teaches the following non Christian, non biblical doctrines.  (Note that all the documentation is taken from Mormon writers and Mormon scriptures.)

God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333)

God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's..." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22).

God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).

After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354.)

There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).

God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.).


In contrast to these teachings, Christianity and the Bible teaches that God has always been God and was never a man (Psalm 90:2).  The Bible no where says he lives near another star or that the Father has a body of flesh and bones -- which Christ contradicted in John 4:24 and Luke 24:39.  We do not have the potential of becoming gods because there are no gods formed (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5).  The Trinity is one God (Deut. 6:4), not three.  (http://carm.org/mormonism)

QuoteNow Gunslinger I will get some flaming arrows in my direction.  I reject the Bof M and everything it stands for.  I believe it is a false prophecy from a delusional man who sought power and used religion to fulfill his carnal sexual desires.
All that being said I can not say those in the LDS who truly accept Christ as their savior are not Christians any more than those today that have delusions of actually talking with God.  It is not my place to judge what error God will or will not accept.
I do wish you could see the B of M in the light of real history and become a better servant of Christ.  It was difficult for me to understand the error of the group I was with in their claims that they had restored the NT church and only their members were actually Christians.

This is your prerogative. I doubt that you would reject everything. After all, it testifies of the divinity and mission of Jesus Christ. We can agree on that point, at least.

I would dispute the notion that it is a false prophecy from a delusional man, of course. And to say that he sought to satisfy his carnal desires is wholly without evidence. Again, there is no evidence that he has had children from any marriage but that to his wife, Emma.

It is commendable that you do not choose to try and determine who is and is not Christian. I believe that only God can determine this, and those who proclaim others are not are essentially speaking for God.

I appreciate your concern about the Book of Mormon. I simply disagree. I know it is the Word of God, and that's all that matters on that account. I have sought the Spirit in determining if it was true, and I have gotten that confirmation. And as I've said prior, I don't believe one needs to be a member of the church to be Christian.

Quote

QuoteGod used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333)

This has been
God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's..." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22).

God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).

After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354.)

There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).

God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.).


In contrast to these teachings, Christianity and the Bible teaches that God has always been God and was never a man (Psalm 90:2).  The Bible no where says he lives near another star or that the Father has a body of flesh and bones -- which Christ contradicted in John 4:24 and Luke 24:39.  We do not have the potential of becoming gods because there are no gods formed (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5).  The Trinity is one God (Deut. 6:4), not three.  (http://carm.org/mormonism)

I need to point out that unless it is contained within the four standard works, it is not official. Mormon Doctrine contains the opinions only of Bruce Mckonckie and does not represent the opinions or beliefs of the  church as a whole.

Putting this aside, however, even if these doctrines are official, and even if they are wrong, how does this affect salvation, if all that is needed is to accept Christ as one's savior? If this is truly all it takes, then it doesn't matter how much error is contained in other doctrine. This thread is on determining if the LDS church is a Christian one, and none of these doctrines can be used to exclude them from such a community.

QuoteI have no doubt whatsoever that you do in fact believe in the LDS Son of God, the problem is that Son of God is only the fictional construct of a disturbed human mind. You have given ample scriptural support for your lack of understanding of the very scriptures you quote.

Wait, are you saying that Jesus being the Son of God is the construct of a delusional mind? I'm pretty sure that the Bible supports this doctrine. Even a cursory reading shows that my position is the strongest one.

If I sum up your beliefs about the relationship between the father and the son, you first attach a different definition to Son, apparently claiming that Jesus was intentionally misleading with his characterization of himself so as to construct a confusing theological riddle that couldn't be solved until a bunch of uninspired men held a council and voted on this position. You then claim that the Father and Son are co-equal and co-eternal. Then I showed you how explicit the Bible is when Christ himself proclaimed that the Father is greater than he is. If there are two personages, and one is greater than the other, then by definition they cannot be equal. Again, you are essentially proposing that 5=7. This is more than a matter of what's logical, this is simple math. And finally, you propose that the Father and Son are both the "One True God." Yet Jesus Christ clearly said that the Father is his God. If they are together both the One God, how can one be the God of the other? These scriptures pretty much obliterate your misunderstanding of what the scriptures say about Christ and God.

Whoa ChristNU...
The New Testament says, "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scriptures say, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed, For whosoever shall call upon the name
of the Lord shall be saved" ( Romans 10:10 ff )

You are judging this man ( gunslinger ) under false pretences. He has admitted "belief" and "confession."
According to this young man he has asked the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true?
He has gained the divine witness from the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.

Just how many more hoops is gunslinger to jump through to satisfy all you good Christians
who claim to have the Holy Spirit? Are you more "holier" than he by the mere asking?
Is it that your feelings and experiences are more prudent than his?
Just reading through the many posts, he has shown a scholarly exegesis of the New Testament
and displayed more patients than Job with many of your insults. The man "believes" so lighten up.....
Smile, God loves ya....

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 09:36:21This thread is on determining if the LDS church is a Christian one, and none of these doctrines can be used to exclude them from such a community.

Actually, you are wrong again; these doctrines go against the foundation of Christianity.  To be a Christian, you must reject the Book of Mormon; and accept the Word of God (Bible) as pure, complete and without error....period!

If one adds to it...God will add to them the plagues revealed in His Word...

You are a Momon...please leave it at that; it reflects the book in which you place your faith.

Quote from: pointmade on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 09:43:49
Whoa ChristNU...
The New Testament says, "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scriptures say, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed, For whosoever shall call upon the name
of the Lord shall be saved" ( Romans 10:10 ff )

You are judging this man ( gunslinger ) under false pretences. He has admitted "belief" and "confession."
According to this young man he has asked the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true?
He has gained the divine witness from the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.

Just how many more hoops is ginslinger to jump through to satisfy all you good Christians
who claim to have the Holy Spirit? Are you more "holier" than he by the mere asking?
Is it that your feelings and experiences are more prudent than his?
Just reading through the many posts, he has shown a scholarly exegesis of the New Testament
and displayed more patients than Job with many of your insults. The man "believes" so lighten up.....
Smile, God loves ya....

You made your point...but does nothing to help this young man...

QuoteActually, you are wrong again; these doctrines go against the foundation of Christianity.  To be a Christian, you must reject the Book of Mormon; and accept the Word of God (Bible) as pure, complete and without error....period!

If one adds to it...God will add to them the plagues revealed in His Word...

You are a Momon...please leave it at that; it reflects the book in which you place your faith.

I'll ask again. Where does the Bible say that one must accept the Holy Bible as the pure, complete and without error word of God? I'll answer this for you: It is not in there anywhere. The Holy Bible was not even compiled during the time of Christ; how can this be a prerequisite for salvation or for being considered a follower of Christ. So on what basis do you make this claim, since it is not in the Bible.

I'll also agree with you, no one can add to God's word. But are you willing to say that you will put limitations on God, saying that he cannot speak up and give us more scripture?

I am a Mormon, true, I'm also a Christian. I place my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not in any particular book.