Christian Forums

Quote from: Insight on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 23:58:14
"And all dominions shall serve and obey him"

Now you say this applies to Christs ascension, whereby all reading this would agree cannot apply - impossible!

When the Lord ascended into heaven, he was given power over the nations (v.14)

14 He (Christ) was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. cp with Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3 :22; though, as yet, they do not "serve and obey him". The time is coming, however, when they will do so, for "the peoples shall be gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve Yahweh" (Ps. 102:22).

Those that refuse to do so will be "cut off" (Isa. 60:12).

Now understanding this to be true you must not restrict a view of Dan 7 as BC but broaden your foresight beyond his ascension to when the little horn would develope its power throughout the whole earth.

Insight

The Resurrection of Christ is when He began His reign.

The milinieum reign began when Satan was thrown into the pit.

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:12:13

Ignoring Hosea I see. Convenient.

Hosea 13:4 And I [am] Jehovah thy God from the land of Egypt, And a God besides Me thou dost not know, And a Saviour -- there is none save Me.


5I -- I have known thee in a wilderness, In a land of droughts.


6According to their feedings they are satiated, They have been satiated, And their heart is lifted up, Therefore they have forgotten Me,


7And I am to them as a lion, As a leopard by the way I look out.


8I do meet them as a bereaved bear, And I rend the enclosure of their heart.


9And I consume them there as a lioness, A beast of the field doth rend them.

I fail to see how your obvious point of Roman dominance over Israel proves the Little Horn is but one of her kings?

All these empires have been destroyers of Israel i.e the "lion" (Daniel 7:4), the "leopard" (Daniel 7:6) the "bear" (Daniel 7:5), and the "wild beast" (Daniel 7:7,8).

However, this is a good reference to show an understanding of how God has used the wild beasts of the field as symbols of beastly/fleshly empires, but again we are considering the little arrogant horn with eyes and a mouth who spoke blasphemous teachings from its mouth.

Its ecclesiastical in disposition because of its eyes and mouth.

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:32:57

Quote from: Insight on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 23:13:19
Let me help you LH while you are reading and considering your response.

Read Dan. 2:44 then read Dan 7:27

"Whose kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom"

The adjective "everlasting" is rendered from the Chaldean alam the equivalent of the Hebrew olam, and denotes a "hidden period". This is the Millennium which has beginning and end. At its conclusion it will be delivered up unto the Father that "God may be all and in all" (1 Cor. 15:24-28).

Please dont insult the Scriptures by implying Dan 7 only contains BC prophecy.

You are doing yourself great harm.

Insight

Considering my response? Not really my old man called me to help him at the warehouse before the trucks roll so I had to go.

I checked Thayers lexicon and saw no reference of a hidden anything with everlasting in the Koine Greek or Hebrew/Aramaic but feel free to substantiate.

Yes the Hebrew word olam occurs is widely used in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The noun olam comes from a verb root alam meaning to hide. See http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5956&t=KJV

You need to study the context to better appreciate the use of Olam as it most always refers to what is hidden especially from our view!

Anything beyond our vision is hide like the Dan 7 passage speaking to everlasting kingdom which Christ will physically preside over on earth as was promised by his Father.

If you would like scriptural examples of its various contexts just ask.

Insight

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:36:41

Quote from: Insight on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 23:58:14
"And all dominions shall serve and obey him"

Now you say this applies to Christs ascension, whereby all reading this would agree cannot apply - impossible!

When the Lord ascended into heaven, he was given power over the nations (v.14)

14 He (Christ) was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. cp with Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3 :22; though, as yet, they do not "serve and obey him". The time is coming, however, when they will do so, for "the peoples shall be gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve Yahweh" (Ps. 102:22).

Those that refuse to do so will be "cut off" (Isa. 60:12).

Now understanding this to be true you must not restrict a view of Dan 7 as BC but broaden your foresight beyond his ascension to when the little horn would develope its power throughout the whole earth.

Insight

The Resurrection of Christ is when He began His reign.

The milinieum reign began when Satan was thrown into the pit.

Just out of interest as I sense you are way left of centre in your understanding of the Millennium age when do you envisage this passage to be fulfilled?

Luke 1:32 Jesus will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:12:13
Ignoring Hosea I see. Convenient.

This horn possesses eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things.

QuoteHerod was no different to any other client king nor does he in any respect appear to be different than the kings of the earth...he certainly does not fit the severity of one who persecutes the true saints for generations.

The eyes and mouth are Babylonian language as proven by my previous post which went unanswered.

This horn has eyes and mouth which are exercised particularly against the saints of the Most High.

Now what was established out of the Roman Empire which had all seeing eyes and an outspoken mouth – and speaking what? That all nations, peoples and kindred's could hear?

"Even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things"

Precisely what "very great things

"Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet;

What would happen if such a devouring beast empire became ecclesiastical?

Read with care...

21 "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 "Thus he said:


'The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[d] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.


26 'But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'

28 "This is the end of the account.[e] As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart.

Quote from: Insight on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 04:13:28

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:12:13

Ignoring Hosea I see. Convenient.

Hosea 13:4 And I [am] Jehovah thy God from the land of Egypt, And a God besides Me thou dost not know, And a Saviour -- there is none save Me.


5I -- I have known thee in a wilderness, In a land of droughts.


6According to their feedings they are satiated, They have been satiated, And their heart is lifted up, Therefore they have forgotten Me,


7And I am to them as a lion, As a leopard by the way I look out.


8I do meet them as a bereaved bear, And I rend the enclosure of their heart.


9And I consume them there as a lioness, A beast of the field doth rend them.

I fail to see how your obvious point of Roman dominance over Israel proves the Little Horn is but one of her kings?

All these empires have been destroyers of Israel i.e the "lion" (Daniel 7:4), the "leopard" (Daniel 7:6) the "bear" (Daniel 7:5), and the "wild beast" (Daniel 7:7,8).

However, this is a good reference to show an understanding of how God has used the wild beasts of the field as symbols of beastly/fleshly empires, but again we are considering the little arrogant horn with eyes and a mouth who spoke blasphemous teachings from its mouth.

Its ecclesiastical in disposition because of its eyes and mouth.

I imagine you fail to see because you lack extensive study of the Bible as a whole. I have already proven that St. Daniel is BC prophecy. Now of course I do not expect you to believe that, I mean how could you? Your error in your eschatology is but a symptom of your error in pneumatology and chrisiology. However let's not fade into that. I have more Bible to present.

The eyes mouth as eccelesiastical is baseless. You have no scriptural support for that just a faulty premise.

Quote from: Insight on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 04:54:51

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:12:13
Ignoring Hosea I see. Convenient.

This horn possesses eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things.

QuoteHerod was no different to any other client king nor does he in any respect appear to be different than the kings of the earth...he certainly does not fit the severity of one who persecutes the true saints for generations.

The eyes and mouth are Babylonian language as proven by my previous post which went unanswered.

This horn has eyes and mouth which are exercised particularly against the saints of the Most High.

Now what was established out of the Roman Empire which had all seeing eyes and an outspoken mouth – and speaking what? That all nations, peoples and kindred's could hear?

"Even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things"

Precisely what "very great things

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 08:31:52

Quote from: Insight on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 04:13:28

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:12:13

Ignoring Hosea I see. Convenient.

Hosea 13:4 And I [am] Jehovah thy God from the land of Egypt, And a God besides Me thou dost not know, And a Saviour -- there is none save Me.


5I -- I have known thee in a wilderness, In a land of droughts.


6According to their feedings they are satiated, They have been satiated, And their heart is lifted up, Therefore they have forgotten Me,


7And I am to them as a lion, As a leopard by the way I look out.


8I do meet them as a bereaved bear, And I rend the enclosure of their heart.


9And I consume them there as a lioness, A beast of the field doth rend them.

I fail to see how your obvious point of Roman dominance over Israel proves the Little Horn is but one of her kings?

All these empires have been destroyers of Israel i.e the "lion" (Daniel 7:4), the "leopard" (Daniel 7:6) the "bear" (Daniel 7:5), and the "wild beast" (Daniel 7:7,8).

However, this is a good reference to show an understanding of how God has used the wild beasts of the field as symbols of beastly/fleshly empires, but again we are considering the little arrogant horn with eyes and a mouth who spoke blasphemous teachings from its mouth.

Its ecclesiastical in disposition because of its eyes and mouth.

I imagine you fail to see because you lack extensive study of the Bible as a whole. I have already proven that St. Daniel is BC prophecy. Now of course I do not expect you to believe that, I mean how could you? Your error in your eschatology is but a symptom of your error in pneumatology and chrisiology. However let's not fade into that. I have more Bible to present.

The eyes mouth as eccelesiastical is baseless. You have no scriptural support for that just a faulty premise.

I will continue to provide the evidence from Scripture until the weight becomes unbearable...we are almost there.

Unlike Nebuchadnezzar he declared a truth you are yet to learn and understand. He said..."His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation"

Please dont reply to this with your foolish BC theory you only insult the understanding of Nebuchadnezzar who currently stands in a better position than yourself.

But.

Where did Nebuchadnezzar learn this truth?

Undoubtedly from Daniel.

In the Image prophecy he had given brief expression to this fact (Dan. 2:44)

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Daniel 2:44)


And no doubt further explanation had been supplied the king regarding God's future intentions (Dan. 7:27).

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Daniel 7:27)

In this remarkable statement, therefore, Nebuchadnezzar gave expression to two fundamental truths of Divine revelation:

1. God's kingdom shall last forever (see Luke 1:33; 1 Cor. 15:23-28)

2. The earth will always be inhabited (see Eccles. 1:4; Isa. 45:18; Rev. 21:3-4).

Though these are clear statements of doctrinal truth, they are frequently disputed by so-called ''Christians".

Nebuchadnezzar had a better understanding of the purpose of God than do many outside who mouth the name of Christ.

LH...you have proved yourself this day to be one of those ignorant Christians who because of your RCC dogmas cannot see the inspired Word and its crystal clear message.

This is the third time I have need of correcting your understanding and each time you have resisted "truth".

Allow me to show you the little horn ecclesiatical power with all seeing eyes and a mouth which speaks boastfully of gods, demons and purgatory.

Insight

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 09:07:05

Quote from: Insight on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 04:54:51

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:12:13
Ignoring Hosea I see. Convenient.

This horn possesses eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things.

QuoteHerod was no different to any other client king nor does he in any respect appear to be different than the kings of the earth...he certainly does not fit the severity of one who persecutes the true saints for generations.

The eyes and mouth are Babylonian language as proven by my previous post which went unanswered.

This horn has eyes and mouth which are exercised particularly against the saints of the Most High.

Now what was established out of the Roman Empire which had all seeing eyes and an outspoken mouth – and speaking what? That all nations, peoples and kindred's could hear?

"Even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things"

Precisely what "very great things

You will notice in Daniel 7 the interpretation of these words are to mean a dominion and Kingdom or hidden Millennial Age as we understand from Revelation, which Jesus himself will reign over.

Now if we live during under Roman dominion do you think we would have known its existance?

Lets read it again..

and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven

It's easy to overlook this Kingdom is NOT"in" Heaven BUT "under

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 04:58:19

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 08:31:52

Quote from: Insight on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 04:13:28

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:12:13

Ignoring Hosea I see. Convenient.

Hosea 13:4 And I [am] Jehovah thy God from the land of Egypt, And a God besides Me thou dost not know, And a Saviour -- there is none save Me.


5I -- I have known thee in a wilderness, In a land of droughts.


6According to their feedings they are satiated, They have been satiated, And their heart is lifted up, Therefore they have forgotten Me,


7And I am to them as a lion, As a leopard by the way I look out.


8I do meet them as a bereaved bear, And I rend the enclosure of their heart.


9And I consume them there as a lioness, A beast of the field doth rend them.

I fail to see how your obvious point of Roman dominance over Israel proves the Little Horn is but one of her kings?

All these empires have been destroyers of Israel i.e the "lion" (Daniel 7:4), the "leopard" (Daniel 7:6) the "bear" (Daniel 7:5), and the "wild beast" (Daniel 7:7,8).

However, this is a good reference to show an understanding of how God has used the wild beasts of the field as symbols of beastly/fleshly empires, but again we are considering the little arrogant horn with eyes and a mouth who spoke blasphemous teachings from its mouth.

Its ecclesiastical in disposition because of its eyes and mouth.

I imagine you fail to see because you lack extensive study of the Bible as a whole. I have already proven that St. Daniel is BC prophecy. Now of course I do not expect you to believe that, I mean how could you? Your error in your eschatology is but a symptom of your error in pneumatology and chrisiology. However let's not fade into that. I have more Bible to present.

The eyes mouth as eccelesiastical is baseless. You have no scriptural support for that just a faulty premise.

I will continue to provide the evidence from Scripture until the weight becomes unbearable...we are almost there.

Unlike Nebuchadnezzar he declared a truth you are yet to learn and understand. He said..."His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation"

Please dont reply to this with your foolish BC theory you only insult the understanding of Nebuchadnezzar who currently stands in a better position than yourself.

But.

Where did Nebuchadnezzar learn this truth?

Undoubtedly from Daniel.

In the Image prophecy he had given brief expression to this fact (Dan. 2:44)

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Daniel 2:44)


And no doubt further explanation had been supplied the king regarding God's future intentions (Dan. 7:27).

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Daniel 7:27)

In this remarkable statement, therefore, Nebuchadnezzar gave expression to two fundamental truths of Divine revelation:

1. God's kingdom shall last forever (see Luke 1:33; 1 Cor. 15:23-28)

2. The earth will always be inhabited (see Eccles. 1:4; Isa. 45:18; Rev. 21:3-4).

Though these are clear statements of doctrinal truth, they are frequently disputed by so-called ''Christians".

Nebuchadnezzar had a better understanding of the purpose of God than do many outside who mouth the name of Christ.

LH...you have proved yourself this day to be one of those ignorant Christians who because of your RCC dogmas cannot see the inspired Word and its crystal clear message.

This is the third time I have need of correcting your understanding and each time you have resisted "truth".

Allow me to show you the little horn ecclesiatical power with all seeing eyes and a mouth which speaks boastfully of gods, demons and purgatory.

Insight

Yes the kingdom of Christ is everlasting. He has had all power in Heaven and earth for more than 2000 years and that's never going to change. Remember the woman's child was enthroned in Heaven but the woman had to reside within the wilderness for a little while until the final judgment.

You are making the ancient Jews mistake the Jews did in expecting some sort of kingdom on Earth. It's ok though I know Christ is already ruling because He said so Himself.

You are quoting Bible verses and then interpreting them erroneously.

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 05:06:22

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 09:07:05

Quote from: Insight on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 04:54:51

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 00:12:13
Ignoring Hosea I see. Convenient.

This horn possesses eyes like a man and a mouth speaking great things.

QuoteHerod was no different to any other client king nor does he in any respect appear to be different than the kings of the earth...he certainly does not fit the severity of one who persecutes the true saints for generations.

The eyes and mouth are Babylonian language as proven by my previous post which went unanswered.

This horn has eyes and mouth which are exercised particularly against the saints of the Most High.

Now what was established out of the Roman Empire which had all seeing eyes and an outspoken mouth – and speaking what? That all nations, peoples and kindred's could hear?

"Even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things"

Precisely what "very great things

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 05:47:36

You will notice in Daniel 7 the interpretation of these words are to mean a dominion and Kingdom or hidden Millennial Age as we understand from Revelation, which Jesus himself will reign over.

Now if we live during under Roman dominion do you think we would have known its existance?

Lets read it again..

and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven

It's easy to overlook this Kingdom is NOT"in" Heaven BUT "under

Quote from: LightHammer on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 12:19:31



You don't follow things well at all but I think you do that purposely. Go back and reread.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,

Flesh and blood contain the sentence of death within its members - we are dying creature's because of the inherited nature from the first man

Jesus also himself likewise took part of the same

Jesus had the exact same nature as you and I - fallen, one prone to sin and death

; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death

Jesus in submitting himself to crucifixion was able to allow God to condemn the very law which falsely accused them before God.

that is, the devil;

GK False accuser - Sin which leads to death especially our inherited nature and bias toward sin was required to be removed from Jesus nature. God crucified his son through the weakness of the flesh and by doing so destroyed sins power i.e Which as Paul teaches can only be found in the Flesh; styled Sin's Flesh

(Hebrews 2:14)

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 14:29:19

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 05:47:36

You will notice in Daniel 7 the interpretation of these words are to mean a dominion and Kingdom or hidden Millennial Age as we understand from Revelation, which Jesus himself will reign over.

Now if we live during under Roman dominion do you think we would have known its existance?

Lets read it again..

and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven

It's easy to overlook this Kingdom is NOT"in" Heaven BUT "under

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 16:09:02

Quote from: LightHammer on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 12:19:31



You don't follow things well at all but I think you do that purposely. Go back and reread.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,

Flesh and blood contain the sentence of death within its members - we are dying creature's because of the inherited nature from the first man

Jesus also himself likewise took part of the same

Jesus had the exact same nature as you and I - fallen, one prone to sin and death

; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death

Jesus in submitting himself to crucifixion was able to allow God to condemn the very law which falsely accused them before God.

that is, the devil;

GK False accuser - Sin which leads to death especially our inherited nature and bias toward sin was required to be removed from Jesus nature. God crucified his son through the weakness of the flesh and by doing so destroyed sins power i.e Which as Paul teaches can only be found in the Flesh; styled Sin's Flesh

(Hebrews 2:14)

Try again Insight you kind of lost sight of my point and are now arguing a point I did not make.

Maybe we should try this after your home renovations are finished so that you can follow the chronology of posts more attentively.

Quote from: LightHammer on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 23:43:59

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 16:09:02

Quote from: LightHammer on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 12:19:31



You don't follow things well at all but I think you do that purposely. Go back and reread.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,

Flesh and blood contain the sentence of death within its members - we are dying creature's because of the inherited nature from the first man

Jesus also himself likewise took part of the same

Jesus had the exact same nature as you and I - fallen, one prone to sin and death

; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death

Jesus in submitting himself to crucifixion was able to allow God to condemn the very law which falsely accused them before God.

that is, the devil;

GK False accuser - Sin which leads to death especially our inherited nature and bias toward sin was required to be removed from Jesus nature. God crucified his son through the weakness of the flesh and by doing so destroyed sins power i.e Which as Paul teaches can only be found in the Flesh; styled Sin's Flesh

(Hebrews 2:14)

Try again Insight you kind of lost sight of my point and are now arguing a point I did not make.

Maybe we should try this after your home renovations are finished so that you can follow the chronology of posts more attentively.

Precisely your original point began with error and ended with error.

I decided to run with the later to show you the truth concerning Hebrews 2:14 which it appears is still unanswered.

Quote from: LightHammer on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 23:38:28

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 14:29:19

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 05:47:36

You will notice in Daniel 7 the interpretation of these words are to mean a dominion and Kingdom or hidden Millennial Age as we understand from Revelation, which Jesus himself will reign over.

Now if we live during under Roman dominion do you think we would have known its existance?

Lets read it again..

and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven

It's easy to overlook this Kingdom is NOT"in" Heaven BUT "under

Quote from: Insight on Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 00:24:54

Quote from: LightHammer on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 23:38:28

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 14:29:19

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 05:47:36

You will notice in Daniel 7 the interpretation of these words are to mean a dominion and Kingdom or hidden Millennial Age as we understand from Revelation, which Jesus himself will reign over.

Now if we live during under Roman dominion do you think we would have known its existance?

Lets read it again..

and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven

It's easy to overlook this Kingdom is NOT"in" Heaven BUT "under

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 - 04:58:19

I will continue to provide the evidence from Scripture until the weight becomes unbearable...we are almost there.

Unlike Nebuchadnezzar he declared a truth you are yet to learn and understand. He said..."His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation"

Please dont reply to this with your foolish BC theory you only insult the understanding of Nebuchadnezzar who currently stands in a better position than yourself.

But.

Where did Nebuchadnezzar learn this truth?

Undoubtedly from Daniel.

In the Image prophecy he had given brief expression to this fact (Dan. 2:44)

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Daniel 2:44)


And no doubt further explanation had been supplied the king regarding God's future intentions (Dan. 7:27).

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Daniel 7:27)

In this remarkable statement, therefore, Nebuchadnezzar gave expression to two fundamental truths of Divine revelation:

1. God's kingdom shall last forever (see Luke 1:33; 1 Cor. 15:23-28)

2. The earth will always be inhabited (see Eccles. 1:4; Isa. 45:18; Rev. 21:3-4).

and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.

Who are the decendants of Jacob?
When will this Kingdom formly begin?
How will it begin?

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (DELIVER UP!!!!!)

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

When is this coming of Christ and to do what?
After his reign on earth "then cometh the end" when and where does this hapen?
He must reign ? What from heaven? But DAvids throne is on earth to be established in Jerusalem?
Well this kingdom cannot be now because death is still here and very active!

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

If the tabernacle of God is with men - it must be on earth as men canot dwell in heaven!  Verse 4 is speaking of death on earth.  And what of vewrse 24?

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

You would have the nations in heaven also? Hold on LH - how can the Kings of the earth bring thier glory and honour to heaven? Ah, so Christ must be on earth along with his saints and the 12 judging over the twelve tribes of Israel...

It is enough.

Insight

So at Jesus Christ's return we are told from Revelation "the kingdoms of this world (will) become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15).

Did you not read the Lords prayer?

"Thy kingdom come (that) Thy will be done in earth, as it is (now) in heaven" (Matt. 6:10).

Surely you also know that the phrase "kingdom of God" is one interchangeable with "the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 13:11 cp. Mark 4:11). Now its not a Kingdom in heaven';but a kingdom of heaven which will be established by Christ on earth at his return.

"at his (Jesus) appearing and his kingdom" (2 Tim. 4:1).

What does it mean?

In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.

Many nations will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob.

He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.

QuoteWhen is this coming of Christ and to do what?
After his reign on earth "then cometh the end" when and where does this hapen?
He must reign ? What from heaven? But DAvids throne is on earth to be established in Jerusalem?
Well this kingdom cannot be now because death is still here and very active!

Oh snap you are so close but no not from Earth but from Heaven.

He reigns from Heaven and then afterwards Gis enemies are conquered and then the old Heaven and Earth pass away and the New come.

 St. Matthew 22:44The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?


From your own quoted verse:

 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (DELIVER UP!!!!!)

 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


I'm here to tell you He reigns my brother. He reigns.


Romans 8:34who [is] he that is condemning? Christ [is] He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God -- who also doth intercede for us.



He's at the Right Hand now, with all power in Heaven and Earth holding the key of the house of St. David spreading liberty in and out of death with the key of Death.


Get with the program.

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 00:59:55

QuoteWhen is this coming of Christ and to do what?
After his reign on earth "then cometh the end" when and where does this hapen?
He must reign ? What from heaven? But DAvids throne is on earth to be established in Jerusalem?
Well this kingdom cannot be now because death is still here and very active!

Oh snap you are so close but no not from Earth but from Heaven.

He reigns from Heaven and then afterwards Gis enemies are conquered and then the old Heaven and Earth pass away and the New come.

 St. Matthew 22:44The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?


From your own quoted verse:

 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (DELIVER UP!!!!!)

 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


I'm here to tell you He reigns my brother. He reigns.


Romans 8:34who [is] he that is condemning? Christ [is] He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God -- who also doth intercede for us.



He's at the Right Hand now, with all power in Heaven and Earth holding the key of the house of St. David spreading liberty in and out of death with the key of Death.


Get with the program.

Yes and no

Quote from: Insight on Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 01:43:31

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 00:59:55

QuoteWhen is this coming of Christ and to do what?
After his reign on earth "then cometh the end" when and where does this hapen?
He must reign ? What from heaven? But DAvids throne is on earth to be established in Jerusalem?
Well this kingdom cannot be now because death is still here and very active!

Oh snap you are so close but no not from Earth but from Heaven.

He reigns from Heaven and then afterwards Gis enemies are conquered and then the old Heaven and Earth pass away and the New come.

 St. Matthew 22:44The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?


From your own quoted verse:

 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (DELIVER UP!!!!!)

 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


I'm here to tell you He reigns my brother. He reigns.


Romans 8:34who [is] he that is condemning? Christ [is] He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God -- who also doth intercede for us.



He's at the Right Hand now, with all power in Heaven and Earth holding the key of the house of St. David spreading liberty in and out of death with the key of Death.


Get with the program.

Yes and no

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 02:06:25

Quote from: Insight on Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 01:43:31

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 00:59:55

QuoteWhen is this coming of Christ and to do what?
After his reign on earth "then cometh the end" when and where does this hapen?
He must reign ? What from heaven? But DAvids throne is on earth to be established in Jerusalem?
Well this kingdom cannot be now because death is still here and very active!

Oh snap you are so close but no not from Earth but from Heaven.

He reigns from Heaven and then afterwards Gis enemies are conquered and then the old Heaven and Earth pass away and the New come.

St. Matthew 22:44The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?


From your own quoted verse:

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (DELIVER UP!!!!!)

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


I'm here to tell you He reigns my brother. He reigns.


Romans 8:34who [is] he that is condemning? Christ [is] He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God -- who also doth intercede for us.



He's at the Right Hand now, with all power in Heaven and Earth holding the key of the house of St. David spreading liberty in and out of death with the key of Death.


Get with the program.

Yes and no

Jesus informed his disciples that he would never again drink wine "until I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom" (Matt. 26:29).

They drink wine in heaven?

"Blessed is he that shall (future) eat bread in the kingdom of God" (Luke 14:15).

And bread too?

And Jesus continues speak future  "I appoint unto you a kingdom. that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom".

And what of "When ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh" (Luke 21:31)

But you say this kingdom is now?

No.  Jesus has been given all power and authority but is yet to fully exercise that authority in the earth.

This will require his return and ascension of his father Davids throne.

This would be the total fulfillment of his first coming...

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

So is Christ Kingdom on earth or in heaven?

27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Did you catch that LH?

Under whole heaven? you know on the earth.

Insight

What will the master do when he returns?

 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet

Back to Daniel 7 to get us onto a right foundation.

"And all dominions shall serve and obey him"

When the Lord ascended into heaven, he was given power over the nations (see verse 14; cp. Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3:22); though, as yet, they do not "serve and obey him".

One must understand the work of Jesus Christ in bringing the nations under his subjection.  The time is coming when they will do so, for "the peoples shall be gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve Yahweh" (Ps.102:22).

So from your understanding which in part is correct that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father and all power and authority has been given however if you believe all the dominions in the earth today serve and obey Christ...

You have been shown a true interpratation but you deny its power.

"And the Kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the Kingdom under the whole heaven"  

If you read this with a clear mind uninhibited with dogmas you would see this is speaking of Christs world dominion in accordance with Dan.2:44.

The Revised Version renders "kingdom" in the plural. All powers on earth, under the heaven are incorporated in the phrase. It is a significant refutation of the
heaven-going theories of the churches that the dominion of the redeemed is described by the expression under the whole heaven.

If you cannot read plain english, which I know you can being very capable - I am prepared to pause our discussion here having provide ample evidence for you to review and reconsider.  

I will post a picture of the Dan 2 image again to support the Image is still standing waiting the stones return to destroy these kingdoms of men and replace it with his own.


courtesy of untilallhaveheard

Insight

"Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee."

"Ask of me (Yahweh) and I shall give thee the heathen (i.e nations) for thine inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break in pieces like a potter's vessel" (Psalm 2:7-9).

LH, you should also know that Jesus has promised the righteous will assist him in this great work of a future hidden age.

"He that overcometh and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers" (Rev. 2:25-27).

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne (Davids Throne), even as I also overcame and am set down with my Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21).

"They (Saints) shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev. 20:6).

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:12).

"Thou hast made us unto our God Kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:9-10).

"The Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15).

"He must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1st Cor. 15:25-26).

These passages outline the inheritence for obedient saints who understand the One True God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

Christ to reign on earth with his saints.

Insight

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 00:59:55

From your own quoted verse:

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (DELIVER UP!!!!!)

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

"Then cometh the end"

End of what?

Answer: 1000 year reign on earth

What shall happen at the end of this reign on earth?

Answer: "he (Jesus) shall have delivered "up" the kingdom to God

What determines the duration?

Answer: "For he must reign (past tense speaking of the 1000 years), till he hath put all enemies under his feet

Rather simple reading LH.

Insight

LH,

Your BC theory was an unusual detour but I sense we can move past it as being unscriptual.

Now getting back to the little horn of the fourth beast.

You believe this is speaking to one man who lived a short life on this planet.  Unlike any other client king he is not noted for speaking great things and having eyes that see throughout the earth.

"And a mouth speaking great things"

These "'great things" are blasphemies against Yahweh (see verse 25 and also Rev. 13:5-8).

Now are you able explain Rev 13:5-8 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies?

The interpratation speaks to the same meaning; where Daniel gave the shadow we get the detail in Rev 13.

Insight

QuoteJesus informed his disciples that he would never again drink wine "until I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom" (Matt. 26:29).

They drink wine in heaven?

"Blessed is he that shall (future) eat bread in the kingdom of God" (Luke 14:15).

And bread too?

Its a polyvalent. It refers to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist by which His body and blood are consecrated with bread and wine, and the wedding feast.

John 6:48 I am the bread of the life;

John 6:55for my flesh truly is food, and my blood truly is drink;

56he who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, doth remain in me, and I in him.

We eat this true flesh and drink this true blood in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. Christ is truly present hence the title "Communion".

Matthew 26:26And while they were eating, Jesus having taken the bread, and having blessed, did brake, and was giving to the disciples, and said, `Take, eat, this is my body;'

27and having taken the cup, and having given thanks, he gave to them, saying, `Drink ye of it -- all;

28for this is my blood of the new covenant, that for many is being poured out -- to remission of sins;

Before you claim that Christ was speaking symbollically, you should already be aware that Christ did not speak like that in the privacy of His Apostles and seventy without revealing the secret of His parabalic expressions. As these statements are given in the privacy of the Apostles and are not followed by any elaboration of any kind, it validates that Christ was speaking literally. He took bread and offered His body. He took wine and presented His blood.

To validate that Christ didn't speak in parables in the private company of His Apostles without explaining away His symbollism I give you this verse for your consideration.

Matthew 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?

QuoteLH,

Your BC theory was an unusual detour but I sense we can move past it as being unscriptual.

Now getting back to the little horn of the fourth beast.

You believe this is speaking to one man who lived a short life on this planet.  Unlike any other client king he is not noted for speaking great things and having eyes that see throughout the earth.

"And a mouth speaking great things"

These "'great things" are blasphemies against Yahweh (see verse 25 and also Rev. 13:5-8).

Now are you able explain Rev 13:5-8 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies?

The interpratation speaks to the same meaning; where Daniel gave the shadow we get the detail in Rev 13.

Insight

Not at all.

I have yet to show you the extent of my theory which you are surprisingly forced to ignore large portions of Sacred Scripture to evade away from.