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Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes" This is the final victory at the end of the millennium (1000 years) will see a repetition of those conditions which followed the initial judgment. Isa 25:8 Isa 35:10.

He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken.

And the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

"And there shall be no more death"

Death is the final enemy to be conquered at the conclusion of the millennium (1 Cor.15:26). Until then, it continues, even throughout the millennium age though in a modified state (Isa 65:20).

LH - Note the distinct change the Lord brings with him to the earth?

No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.

At the conclusion of the second ressurection and final judgement death will be the last enemy to be swallowed up; styled in the scriptures as "Satan (adversary), Devil (false accuser), Slandered, Fasle Accuser etc. and everything which stands for apostate doctrines will be permanently ddestroyed (RCC and her daughters).

"Neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" These conditions shall continue during the millennium (1000 years), though on a greatly reduced rate to that of today. Even Christs Kingdom is spoken here as being the former things, former order of things has passed away. To be replaced with the Garden of Eden restored in the Earth.

For the learned eye these are precious truths.

Insight

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (red = Jesus speaking)

"And he that sat upon the throne"....I will rest here a while to see if you can expound precisely the nature of this throne considering the substance of Rev 4:2.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev 4:2 - written in AD 95-96 (approx)

LH - we come to a cross road for everything seen by John has clearly been upon earth.  Where is this throne? Who is sitting upon this throne? Whose name is "True and faithful"? And before you fall into the trap of going heavenwards as your wayward doctrine instructs you, take another careful look at these passages in their context paying particular attention to the Lord's reward for his obedience to his Father.

"Jesus will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David"
   
I am sure when the penny drops it will do so very hard....imagine learning everything you were taught as a child was false? To be honest I expect you to draw back rather than come nearer to the Word.

Let's see.

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 02:38:03
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (red = Jesus speaking)

"And he that sat upon the throne"....I will rest here a while to see if you can expound precisely the nature of this throne considering the substance of Rev 4:2.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev 4:2 - written in AD 95-96 (approx)

Ask a couple of open questions Lighthammer and see where they lead you?  What might the first question be?

1.

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 04:36:02

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 02:38:03
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (red = Jesus speaking)

"And he that sat upon the throne"....I will rest here a while to see if you can expound precisely the nature of this throne considering the substance of Rev 4:2.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev 4:2 - written in AD 95-96 (approx)

Ask a couple of open questions Lighthammer and see where they lead you?  What might the first question be?

1.

I know Yahweh's throne has been established in those heavens from time immemorial....so how set? and set where?

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 04:43:12

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 04:36:02

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 02:38:03
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (red = Jesus speaking)

"And he that sat upon the throne"....I will rest here a while to see if you can expound precisely the nature of this throne considering the substance of Rev 4:2.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev 4:2 - written in AD 95-96 (approx)

Ask a couple of open questions Lighthammer and see where they lead you?  What might the first question be?

1.

I know Yahweh's throne has been established in those heavens from time immemorial....so how set? and set where?

Lets go with the Greek (κεῖμαι - set) on this one as to mean a throne "to be made" or "appointed".

But where?

A couple of clues LH...

to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,  

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 04:53:08

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 04:43:12

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 04:36:02

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 02:38:03
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (red = Jesus speaking)

"And he that sat upon the throne"....I will rest here a while to see if you can expound precisely the nature of this throne considering the substance of Rev 4:2.

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev 4:2 - written in AD 95-96 (approx)

Ask a couple of open questions Lighthammer and see where they lead you?  What might the first question be?

1.

I know Yahweh's throne has been established in those heavens from time immemorial....so how set? and set where?

Lets go with the Greek (κεῖμαι - set) on this one as to mean a throne "to be made" or "appointed".

But where?

A couple of clues LH...

to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,  

I hope you are still considering a number of open questions?

Bring to mind LH that Rev 4 & 21 are both wrtten in the context of Jesus being in heaven...John was told these things would be fulfilled "hereafter" (Rev. 1:1; 4:1).

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:1

So Rev 4:2 is not yet a set throne but one appointed for a future time.

What sayest thou? 

The truth about Rev 4:2 & Rev 21:5 speaks to a beautifully hidden symbology which suggests a scene of national judgment in the political heaven such as is described in the similar language of Daniel 7:9-14.

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

With what you have learned please read these verses carefully.

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 05:20:16
The truth about Rev 4:2 & Rev 21:5 speaks to a beautifully hidden symbology which suggests a scene of national judgment in the political heaven such as is described in the similar language of Daniel 7:9-14.

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

Trickly little passage this one LH.

As you see the A.V. reads: "the thrones were cast down," but this is better rendered "the thrones were placed, set, or fixed."

The R.V. renders, "the thrones were placed." The metaphor of placing thrones is borrowed from the custom of earthly judicatories, and particularly that of the Great Sanhedrin, where the father of the consistory sat with his assessors seated on
either side of him, in the form of a semicircle, with the people standing before him (cp. Ps. 9:7; 122:5).

That is the picture presented in the chapter before us. The redeemed already are in glory (See 8-11; Rev. 5:9-10); the Lamb has "prevailed" in judging the nations (Rev.5:5); and the vision closes with praise being ascribed to the one upon the throne
an the part of all upon the earth (Rev.5:13-14).

The description of the one upon the throne (a combination of jasper and sardine stones) suggests Divine judgment through the glorified Son of Man (See. John 5:19-27).

Insight

"Said, Behold, I make all new"

At the conclusion of the 1000 years millenium reign of Christ, and his saints, a completely new order or constitution of things will be set up.

The perfected kingdom will be delivered to the Father (1 Cor 15:24).

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Corinthians 15:24)

"I make all new

Rev 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done am. I Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"

Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. There are twenty four letters in the Greek alphabet, answering to the twenty-four elders of Rev. 4:4 which represents perfectly the multitudinous (Jew & Gentile) in Christ.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. (Revelation 4:4)

It is appropriate that the Lord, who is described as "the word made flesh" should also bare this title. He is the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb. 12:2), and to him we should look for salvation. In this verse however, he speaks as the manifestation of God, the Almighty. His position is one of absolute power in Heaven and on Earth and is only subject to his Father and none else. 1 Corin 15:27

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (Yahweh) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:28)

See 1 John 3:1; Rom. 8:19; and compare with Isa. 44:6 with Isa. 41:4. To better understand how God manifested Himself through Jesus Christ His son.

Its important to acknowledge that we the saints are also in this title a multitude of believers in Jesus Christ who is our head.

"The beginning and the ending" All has now been accomplished in Christ.

"I (Jesus) will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely"—The water of life is not offered indiscriminately to all, but only to those who thirst for it (Isa. 55:1). How necessary it is for us to devolope that thirst? See John 4:13-14.

Insight

See 1 John 3:1; Rom. 8:19; and compare with Isa. 44:6 with Isa. 41:4. To better understand how God manifested Himself through Jesus Christ His son.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. (1 John 3:1)

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:19)

Compare...

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. (Isaiah 41:4)

God manifested through Jesus Christ (singluar) and in the plural (saints).

Consider these truths against the following verses.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7-8)

Lets pause it here to reconsider an overview of Rev 21:1-6.

Revelation 21 is clearly based on Revelation Chapter 20 - especially the comprehension of verse 4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

"They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

This is equivalent to saying that they lived again (see v. 5). The Greek is "and they lived, and they reigned with the Anointed
one, "thus implying a resurrection unto eternal life, followed by a reigning with Christ during the millenium (Rev. 5:9-10).

I dont know how LH puts this together but he would have a job on his hands to explain the following verse...

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"

At Christ's return, "the kingdoms of this world (will start to become- notice the grinding to powder of the image Dan 2) the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever" (Rev 11:15).

This is the Second (2nd) Heaven and Earth. The former age where sin is still present but restrained under the rulership and guidance of Christ and the Saints.

Then at the time of the end of this 1000 year reign God's will and desire will be completely and openly performed in this earth. Hence Jesus' command for us to pray:

"Thy kingdom come (that) Thy will be done in earth, as it is (now) in heaven" (Matt. 6:10). "kingdom of God" is a phrase interchangeable with "the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 13:11 cp. Mark 4:11).

Christ looked forward to a time when God's Davidic Kingdom would have his beloved Son reigning in righteouness in the earth leading to a time when his Father's perfect will in heaven which is never questioned or broken will be on earth.

This is the Third Heaven (3rd) and Earth which shall never be replaced or destroyed.

We must remember God is not concerned with the Kingdoms of Men - His main focus is His Kingdom which began under Saul (the king they choose) but more so under David (The Lords anointed).

So the Kingdom of God is styled "Heaven and Earth" and it looks like this.

1. Kingdom of Israel (First Heaven and Earth)

2. Christ and the Saints 1000 years (Second Heaven and Earth)

3. God being "all in all" the Tabernacle of God is finally with man on earth. This is the final Heaven and Earth...where its rulers and peoples will lived eternally in Eden restored and what happens into eternity no one really knows. But I eagerly await this time.

Each of these phases is the great Bible Narrative which teaches how this humble little Kingdom of Israel will one day fill the entire earth.

Insight

Now Rev 20:7 is clear what is being taught.

"And when the thousand years are expired"

compared...

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:1  

AND

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:4)

Insight

Lighthammer,

After Christ and the saints have reigned over the earth we know sin will be allowed to have it's way in the earth once more.

After the completion of the millenium, there will follow a period during which the restraints of that time shall be relaxed, enabling every person to manifest the hidden motives of his or her heart by continued obedience or otherwise. No longer will the Redeemed openly oppose sin; no longer will be heard the voice of instruction commanding "this is the way walk ye in it" (Isa. 30:21).

(Hence why Rev 21:1-6 is so essential in its teaching)

Instead, each one will be permitted to exercise his own desire, and shall be self-judged by the way they react.

"And (sin) shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth"

With the relaxing of restrictions, human nature will assert itself once more. It will be found that people can please themselves without restraint, so that even "in the land of uprightness" people will begin to act unrighteously once more (Isa. 26:10).

So lets pop back over to Rev 21.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

"But the fearful" Gr. deilos, "cowards." The truth demands both mental and moral courage. All cowards will be excluded from the Kingdom.

"And unbelieving" This was the cause of many in Israel failing to enter the land of promise (Heb 3:18). We honour God by respecting His Word which He has magnified above all His name (Psa 138:2). The word is apistos, and signifies "faithless." A person can "believe" a doctrine academically and yet be faithless. That was Israel's failure. Faith comes by generating confidence in Gods promises through study of the word (Rom. 10:17 Heb. 11:1,6).

"The abominable" Gr. Bdelussomai from bdeo, "to stink," to cause one to turn away in disgust. A kindred word in Luke 16:15 is used to describe that which is highly esteemed among men, but which is abhorrent in the sight of God.

"And murderers" A murderer, in a figurative sense, is described as one who hates his brother without cause (1 John 3:15).

"And whoremongers" The unfaithful who make friends with the world are described as adultresses (James 4:4).

"And sorcerers" Gr. pharmakeus. A related word is rendered "witchcraft" in Gal. 5:20. The root word implies the removing of an evil, or the inflicting of one, usually by use of a drug. Heretical doctrines can act as a drug, dulling the mind to the realities of life and of true religion.

"And idolators" Idolatry is refusing to heed the Word of God (1 Sam. 15:23), or of covetously serving self to the exclusion of the Truth (Col. 3:5).

"And all liars" Those that teach false doctrines are here named and counted as a liars. 1 John 2:4,22; 1 John 4:20; 1 John 5:10.

"Shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"

These numerous people will share the fate of the world which they loved so much during their probation on earth.

You will note how Jesus expresses "death

Lighthammer - should the Lord remain away and you see the grave as a Roman Catholic you will not see the Millennium age, or the second death, but take part in the first death with all those who lived during the time of the gentiles.

The appearing of Jesus Christ will bring the end of the Gentile age and the beginning of the Second Heaven and Earth government upon the Earth.

Shake off your Romanist teachings and depart from false doctrine so you can take part in these verses with joy.

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: (1 Timothy 6:14)

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (2 Timothy 4:1)

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:7)

I could write books on those things that shall come to pass at his appearing.

It is sad you deny these passages for Church dogma's.

Insight

Lighthammer must consider the relationship between Jerusalem and the Lamb.

As we have seen the first eight verses of Rev 21:1-8 took us beyond the millennium age 1000 year reign of Christ where his rulership eventuated in death being destroyed forever, and sin abolished from the earth.

From verse 9 onwards, a new vision commences.

I will explore the new vision while LH is either away or no longer engaging in this debate.

The Spirit takes John back to the commencement of Christ's earthly reign to trace the development of the New Jerusalem whose final glory he has been shown already in Rev 21:1-8.

I appreciate many are reading this debate and while I could spend this time doing other profitable things an indication from one to continue would be appreciated.

Here is a taste:

This is the final vision of The Revelation, which in the course of its unfolding has revealed the holy city comes under considerable persecution (Rev. 11:12); which occurs at the beginning of the millennium age (the vision now before us), and at the conclusion of it (Rev. 21:1-8). Now we are shown the significant that the symbology of the spiritual Temple-city now reveal and based on the details found in the literal Temple of Ezekiel in chapters 40-48.

Understanding the events that surround the 1000 year reign and its completion given considerable detail in the REvelation.

Ezekiel's Temple was never constructed and forms part of the work in the millennium age.  This will be the temple which nations come up to year on year offer praise and to learn of Gods ways.



Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

"And there came unto me one of the seven angels that had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues"

The introduction of this vision by one of the angels of the vials suggests that the time period of its fulfilment is at the return of Christ (Rev. 16:15). It will be during the period of the 7th vial that the new Jerusalem will be first revealed. It is also during the seventh vial that Jesus Christ returns to the earth. A great number of events take place in this seventh vial period, too many to mention here but to name a few:

•   Marriage of the Lamb
•   Preparation for war - Rev 10
•   Arab Nations subdued
•   Apostate Churches admonished
•   Nations disciplined
•   Judah refined and Israel regathered fully into the Land and much more.

We havnt time here to expound Rev 16 needless to say we are in the period of the seventh vial and Jesus Christ will return like a thief to his household. (Rev 16:15)

"And talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife"

This is new Jerusalem made up of a company of redeemed, the saints of the Most High God. See Rev. 19:7.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; (Revelation 19:17)

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 18:09:29
I wanted to test your undestanding of Rev 21 and whether you are able to draw back into the Old Testament to prove Yahweh has no need of destroying his Heavenly abode nor his earth as promised after the flood.

You cannot run from the literal return of Jesus Christ; this is why your apostacy has rob you of ever entering the Kingdom.

A true servant of Christ is eagerly waiting for the Master of the house to return:

Are your lamps trimmed and burning brightly? and a good supply of the oil of the Word in hand? Matt.24:42-44.

From our discussion I have determined you cannot speak to the Daniels prophecy or can you enter the Revelation with care.

"Therefore be ye also ready" (Roth.) "Wherefore ye also be getting ready". This is an exhortation to constant preparedness.

"ye think not" (Roth) "ye are not thinking".

You are like a sleeping man whose thoughts are constantly on dogmans so the very real danger that you will be found by my Lord in a state of unpreparedness is clear, not only have you lost your conception of the realities of the Kingdom but your vision of the glories to come you know not.

Jesus said....Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (Revelation 16:15)

Of course we know why he is coming...

And they (saints) sung a new song, saying, Thou (Jesus) art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain (past tense), and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall (future tense) reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)

I will persist for a little while with Rev 21 so I can bed down the three phases of the Kingdom of God on earth - feel free to read along and enter once you have a handle on the symbology.

Enjoy

Insight

Sorry for the delay. Drill weekend.

You misunderstand. I believe wholeheartedly in a literal secoming of Christ. Looking forward to the Parousia. I just don't believe in any form of literal return until the last enemy of Christ has been destroyed and New Heaven and New Earth descend giving us New Jerusalem. Mainly because such contradicts the words of Sacred Scripture.

Btw.

If You see I haven't been online don't proceed to type up two pages of posts for me to play catch up with. Its silly and unnecessary. If I haven't replied yet there's a valid reason for it. Now I have to try and place two pages of your osts in context when you could have easily waited until I returned.

Quote from: Insight on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 04:03:12
Lighthammer must consider the relationship between Jerusalem and the Lamb.

As we have seen the first eight verses of Rev 21:1-8 took us beyond the millennium age 1000 year reign of Christ where his rulership eventuated in death being destroyed forever, and sin abolished from the earth.

From verse 9 onwards, a new vision commences.

I will explore the new vision while LH is either away or no longer engaging in this debate.

The Spirit takes John back to the commencement of Christ's earthly reign to trace the development of the New Jerusalem whose final glory he has been shown already in Rev 21:1-8.

I appreciate many are reading this debate and while I could spend this time doing other profitable things an indication from one to continue would be appreciated.

Here is a taste:

This is the final vision of The Revelation, which in the course of its unfolding has revealed the holy city comes under considerable persecution (Rev. 11:12); which occurs at the beginning of the millennium age (the vision now before us), and at the conclusion of it (Rev. 21:1-8). Now we are shown the significant that the symbology of the spiritual Temple-city now reveal and based on the details found in the literal Temple of Ezekiel in chapters 40-48.

Understanding the events that surround the 1000 year reign and its completion given considerable detail in the REvelation.

Ezekiel's Temple was never constructed and forms part of the work in the millennium age.  This will be the temple which nations come up to year on year offer praise and to learn of Gods ways.



Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

"And there came unto me one of the seven angels that had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues"

The introduction of this vision by one of the angels of the vials suggests that the time period of its fulfilment is at the return of Christ (Rev. 16:15). It will be during the period of the 7th vial that the new Jerusalem will be first revealed. It is also during the seventh vial that Jesus Christ returns to the earth. A great number of events take place in this seventh vial period, too many to mention here but to name a few:

•   Marriage of the Lamb
•   Preparation for war - Rev 10
•   Arab Nations subdued
•   Apostate Churches admonished
•   Nations disciplined
•   Judah refined and Israel regathered fully into the Land and much more.

We havnt time here to expound Rev 16 needless to say we are in the period of the seventh vial and Jesus Christ will return like a thief to his household. (Rev 16:15)

"And talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife"

This is new Jerusalem made up of a company of redeemed, the saints of the Most High God. See Rev. 19:7.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; (Revelation 19:17)

Insight

Are you trying to be funny?

Like I'm curious if you're serious or if you're trying to make a joke?

I never onced denied. that New Jerusalem, New Heaven and New Earth were real places. I'm the one who introduced them into the discussion. If you forgot go back and reread. I was refuting your idea of a millennium reign where Christ resides on Earth while Satan in bound up.

I think you're purposelly acting confused because I have successfully debunked your idea of a Millennium Reign where Christ resides on Earth. Yes New Jerusalem, New Heaven and New Earth are real places but those have nothing to do with the Millennnium Reign. Those come after.

There's no way you genuinely got our discussion this jacked up. I was gone for two days. Don't waste my time Insight and don't try and switch my stances.

You know I never denied that New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem were real places to come. On the contrary I was the first to introuce that position into the thread. Your idea of Christ's second coming starting the Milliennium Reign where He resides on Earth has been proven wrong. Don't try and twist my position because yours has been shattered.

Christ's reigns at the Right Hand and will remain there until His enemies have been destroyed, the last of which is Death. Once Death is conquered THEN the old heaven and earth are disembodied and the New come about. Then Christ resides physically on the New Earth. Christ DOES NOT reside on Earth during the Millennium Reign because His enemies will not be destroyed at that time. Satan will only be bound up and Death won't be destroyed until later.

I can't believe you tried to get me like that. Trying to act like I denied New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem were literal future places; so unimpressive.

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 10:30:54

Quote from: Insight on Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 18:09:29
I wanted to test your undestanding of Rev 21 and whether you are able to draw back into the Old Testament to prove Yahweh has no need of destroying his Heavenly abode nor his earth as promised after the flood.

You cannot run from the literal return of Jesus Christ; this is why your apostacy has rob you of ever entering the Kingdom.

A true servant of Christ is eagerly waiting for the Master of the house to return:

Are your lamps trimmed and burning brightly? and a good supply of the oil of the Word in hand? Matt.24:42-44.

From our discussion I have determined you cannot speak to the Daniels prophecy or can you enter the Revelation with care.

"Therefore be ye also ready" (Roth.) "Wherefore ye also be getting ready". This is an exhortation to constant preparedness.

"ye think not" (Roth) "ye are not thinking".

You are like a sleeping man whose thoughts are constantly on dogmans so the very real danger that you will be found by my Lord in a state of unpreparedness is clear, not only have you lost your conception of the realities of the Kingdom but your vision of the glories to come you know not.

Jesus said....Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (Revelation 16:15)

Of course we know why he is coming...

And they (saints) sung a new song, saying, Thou (Jesus) art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain (past tense), and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall (future tense) reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)

I will persist for a little while with Rev 21 so I can bed down the three phases of the Kingdom of God on earth - feel free to read along and enter once you have a handle on the symbology.

Enjoy

Insight

Sorry for the delay. Drill weekend.

You misunderstand. I believe wholeheartedly in a literal secoming of Christ. Looking forward to the Parousia. I just don't believe in any form of literal return until the last enemy of Christ has been destroyed and New Heaven and New Earth descend giving us New Jerusalem. Mainly because such contradicts the words of Sacred Scripture.

Btw.

If You see I haven't been online don't proceed to type up two pages of posts for me to play catch up with. Its silly and unnecessary. If I haven't replied yet there's a valid reason for it. Now I have to try and place two pages of your osts in context when you could have easily waited until I returned.

Welcome back LH.

A courtesy message would have been welcomed and not so difficult with the modern technology avaliable today. 

I will give you a few days respond to the many posts that show Christs second coming; whereby his throne shall be set in Jerusalem.

Enjoy...others have!

Insight

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 10:52:55

Like I'm curious if you're serious or if you're trying to make a joke?

I never onced denied. that New Jerusalem, New Heaven and New Earth were real places. I'm the one who introduced them into the discussion. If you forgot go back and reread. I was refuting your idea of a millennium reign where Christ resides on Earth while Satan in bound up.

Christ's return to Jerusalem is what makes it New.

Maybe you can explain your Satan being bound theory.

Should be interesting.

Quote

I think you're purposelly acting confused because I have successfully debunked your idea of a Millennium Reign where Christ resides on Earth. Yes New Jerusalem, New Heaven and New Earth are real places but those have nothing to do with the Millennnium Reign. Those come after.

There's no way you genuinely got our discussion this jacked up. I was gone for two days. Don't waste my time Insight and don't try and switch my stances.

You know I never denied that New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem were real places to come. On the contrary I was the first to introuce that position into the thread. Your idea of Christ's second coming starting the Milliennium Reign where He resides on Earth has been proven wrong. Don't try and twist my position because yours has been shattered.

Christ's reigns at the Right Hand and will remain there until His enemies have been destroyed, the last of which is Death. Once Death is conquered THEN the old heaven and earth are disembodied and the New come about. Then Christ resides physically on the New Earth. Christ DOES NOT reside on Earth during the Millennium Reign because His enemies will not be destroyed at that time. Satan will only be bound up and Death won't be destroyed until later.

I can't believe you tried to get me like that. Trying to act like I denied New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem were literal future places; so unimpressive.

A lot of whining here LH without any Scriptural substance...which I must say has been increasing of late.

At present you are swimming in a sea of Scripture that reveals a literal reign of Christ upon the earth for a period of 1000 years.

I will wait for your Satan teaching before going any further.

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 15:31:14

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 10:52:55

Like I'm curious if you're serious or if you're trying to make a joke?

I never onced denied. that New Jerusalem, New Heaven and New Earth were real places. I'm the one who introduced them into the discussion. If you forgot go back and reread. I was refuting your idea of a millennium reign where Christ resides on Earth while Satan in bound up.

Christ's return to Jerusalem is what makes it New.

Maybe you can explain your Satan being bound theory.

Should be interesting.

Quote

I think you're purposelly acting confused because I have successfully debunked your idea of a Millennium Reign where Christ resides on Earth. Yes New Jerusalem, New Heaven and New Earth are real places but those have nothing to do with the Millennnium Reign. Those come after.

There's no way you genuinely got our discussion this jacked up. I was gone for two days. Don't waste my time Insight and don't try and switch my stances.

You know I never denied that New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem were real places to come. On the contrary I was the first to introuce that position into the thread. Your idea of Christ's second coming starting the Milliennium Reign where He resides on Earth has been proven wrong. Don't try and twist my position because yours has been shattered.

Christ's reigns at the Right Hand and will remain there until His enemies have been destroyed, the last of which is Death. Once Death is conquered THEN the old heaven and earth are disembodied and the New come about. Then Christ resides physically on the New Earth. Christ DOES NOT reside on Earth during the Millennium Reign because His enemies will not be destroyed at that time. Satan will only be bound up and Death won't be destroyed until later.

I can't believe you tried to get me like that. Trying to act like I denied New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem were literal future places; so unimpressive.

A lot of whining here LH without any Scriptural substance...which I must say has been increasing of late.

At present you are swimming in a sea of Scripture that reveals a literal reign of Christ upon the earth for a period of 1000 years.

I will wait for your Satan teaching before going any further.

Insight

What are you talking about?

I never claimed that Christ wouldn't physically reign on the Earth. I said He wouldn't reign on the Earth during the Millennium Age. He is going to reign in the New Heaven and the New Earth from New Jerusalem. However the New Age is after the Millennium Age.

Are you trying to be funny? I'm not whining you simply have no idea what point you're arguing. The point we were arguing was YOUR claim that Christ is going to come down to Earth and reign from here during the Millennium Age. That was YOUR(as in you Insight) claim.

Now try to keep up.

I rebuttal and said no Christ is at the Right Hand and will not leave the Right Hand all of His enemies have been destroyed. His last enemy is death after who's demise the New Age comes. THEN Christ reigns physically upon the New Earth.

Do you understand the argument now? I can say it slowly if you need me to. We(LightHammer and Insight) were debating your(Insight) view on the Millennium Age. You(Insight) claim that Christ reigns from the Earth during this age. I (LightHammer) was disputing your(Insight) claim that Christ will reign from the Earth in the Millennium Age.

I say again do you understand the context of our debate. If you really are this confused. I am done with this conversation. I will not attorney to eebate someone who reading comprehension skills are so poor that they even follow a one on one discussion.

Take some time read my posts and then read yours. And then read mine again. Then when you actually have a clue how this conversation is going we can talk. Stop wasting my time, Insight.  

Wait are claiming that the Millenium Age is the same ad the New Age?

Oh that's super easy to prove false.

Revelation 20:2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

After the thousand years Satan is released and this happens.

Revelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan is destroyed and after that this happens...

Revelation 20:11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

The crescendo.....

Revelation 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


After the Millennium Age Satan is freed goes crazy is conquered. Then comes the Final Jugment where Death is destroyed and then this happens.....

Revelation 21: 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

New Heaven New Earth and New Jerusalem don't come until after the Millennium Age. Theyre not the same thing.

Here is the proof that Christ does not reign on the Earth during the Millennium Age:

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Christ doesn't leave the Right Hand until His enemies are destroyed.  The last enemy is death.

1 Corinthians 15:26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


Death is destroyed after the Millennium Age and Christ doesn't leave the Right Hand until His enemies are destroyed. That means He does not reign on the Earth during the Millennium Age.

Like its ok Insight. Someone lied to you. I'm not sure who it was but they defibitely lied to you.

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 16:12:00

Quote from: Insight on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 15:31:14

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 10:52:55

Like I'm curious if you're serious or if you're trying to make a joke?

I never onced denied. that New Jerusalem, New Heaven and New Earth were real places. I'm the one who introduced them into the discussion. If you forgot go back and reread. I was refuting your idea of a millennium reign where Christ resides on Earth while Satan in bound up.

Christ's return to Jerusalem is what makes it New.

Maybe you can explain your Satan being bound theory.

Should be interesting.

Quote

I think you're purposelly acting confused because I have successfully debunked your idea of a Millennium Reign where Christ resides on Earth. Yes New Jerusalem, New Heaven and New Earth are real places but those have nothing to do with the Millennnium Reign. Those come after.

There's no way you genuinely got our discussion this jacked up. I was gone for two days. Don't waste my time Insight and don't try and switch my stances.

You know I never denied that New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem were real places to come. On the contrary I was the first to introuce that position into the thread. Your idea of Christ's second coming starting the Milliennium Reign where He resides on Earth has been proven wrong. Don't try and twist my position because yours has been shattered.

Christ's reigns at the Right Hand and will remain there until His enemies have been destroyed, the last of which is Death. Once Death is conquered THEN the old heaven and earth are disembodied and the New come about. Then Christ resides physically on the New Earth. Christ DOES NOT reside on Earth during the Millennium Reign because His enemies will not be destroyed at that time. Satan will only be bound up and Death won't be destroyed until later.

I can't believe you tried to get me like that. Trying to act like I denied New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem were literal future places; so unimpressive.

A lot of whining here LH without any Scriptural substance...which I must say has been increasing of late.

At present you are swimming in a sea of Scripture that reveals a literal reign of Christ upon the earth for a period of 1000 years.

I will wait for your Satan teaching before going any further.

Insight

What are you talking about?

I never claimed that Christ wouldn't physically reign on the Earth. I said He wouldn't reign on the Earth during the Millennium Age. He is going to reign in the New Heaven and the New Earth from New Jerusalem. However the New Age is after the Millennium Age.

Are you trying to be funny? I'm not whining you simply have no idea what point you're arguing. The point we were arguing was YOUR claim that Christ is going to come down to Earth and reign from here during the Millennium Age. That was YOUR(as in you Insight) claim.

Now try to keep up.

I rebuttal and said no Christ is at the Right Hand and will not leave the Right Hand all of His enemies have been destroyed. His last enemy is death after who's demise the New Age comes. THEN Christ reigns physically upon the New Earth.

Do you understand the argument now? I can say it slowly if you need me to. We(LightHammer and Insight) were debating your(Insight) view on the Millennium Age. You(Insight) claim that Christ reigns from the Earth during this age. I (LightHammer) was disputing your(Insight) claim that Christ will reign from the Earth in the Millennium Age.

I say again do you understand the context of our debate. If you really are this confused. I am done with this conversation. I will not attorney to eebate someone who reading comprehension skills are so poor that they even follow a one on one discussion.

Take some time read my posts and then read yours. And then read mine again. Then when you actually have a clue how this conversation is going we can talk. Stop wasting my time, Insight.  

LH - go to page 8 and use the "find" function and search "1000" or "Millennium".

Why don't you quit with your verbal gymnastics and enter the Word of God.  All those reading this will be seeing one who is confounded with post after post proving conclusively a Christ reigning throughout the 1000 year reign on earth.

By the way the answer is 5 (1000) times and 7 (Millenium) times!

I think this is the 3rd or 4th time you have sought a the exit door in this debate, which again shows your lack of staying power; it is also disapointing on all fronts as you invited me to this debate only to wimper away with your tail between your legs.

The reign of Christ on earth has been proven from Daniel and Revelation without any meaningful rebuttle.

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 05:50:11

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: (1 Timothy 6:14)

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (2 Timothy 4:1)

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:7)

It is enough.

Quote

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:12).

"He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations, and he shall rule them" (Rev. 2:26).

"The saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever" (Dan. 7:18, 27).

"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom" (Matt. 25:34).

All future -- post resurrection

Quote from: Insight on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 21:32:55

Quote from: Insight on Sun Feb 12, 2012 - 05:50:11

That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: (1 Timothy 6:14)

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (2 Timothy 4:1)

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:7)

It is enough.

Quote

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:12).

"He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations, and he shall rule them" (Rev. 2:26).

"The saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever" (Dan. 7:18, 27).

"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom" (Matt. 25:34).

All future -- post resurrection

Yes they refer to the New Age. Christ will reign on the New Earth.

I don't get it. I thought we were addressing the Millennium Age? Your claim that Christ was going to reign on the Earth during the Millennium Age.

Why are you shifting to the New Age?

"And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and Jesus will teach us of HIS WAYS, and we will walk in HIS PATHS for OUT OF ZION SHALL GO FORTH THE LAW, AND THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM. And Jesus shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more"

The return of Jesus Christ will begin to fulfil these words from Isaiah 2.

Again we draw back to your incorrect view of Daniels Prophecy which speaks to this above time when Christ will personally grind the kingdoms of men to powder and replace it with his own...not from Heaven where the ungodly cannot see or believe but here on earth.

And

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up FROM YEAR TO YEAR to worship the King (Christ), the Lord of Hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that who will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

Compare...

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Daniel 2:44)

1000 year reign begins with the physical return of Christ and concludes with him offering up a perfected glorified Kingdom to his Father.

Insight

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 17:15:47
Wait are claiming that the Millenium Age is the same ad the New Age?

Oh that's super easy to prove false.

Revelation 20:2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

After the thousand years Satan is released and this happens.

Which is he, the Devil or Satan? Can you explain the symbolism? Clearly something is bound - but what? BTW do you believe in dragons also?

Lets entertain your supernatural notions for a little amusement shall we?

Explain the following from Rev 20:2

•   How did Jesus lay hold of this supernatural dragon?
•   Why are we told it is the old Serpent from the Garden of Eden? (hint hint)
•   Where is the bottomless pit and how did he seal this pit?
•   In what way did this supernatural creature deceive the nations?
•   What is the reason for letting it go?

Look forward to you answering these questions with Bible verses.

Insight

# Little do you know but you have quoted the very verse whcih proves Jesus is on the earth at the beginning of the thousand year reign...I am left wondering why you cannot see it.

Quote from: Insight on Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 03:06:28

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 17:15:47
Wait are claiming that the Millennium Age is the same ad the New Age?

Oh that's super easy to prove false.

Revelation 20:2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

After the thousand years Satan is released and this happens.

Which is he, the Devil or Satan? Can you explain the symbolism? Clearly something is bound - but what? BTW do you believe in dragons also?

Let's entertain your supernatural notions for a little amusement shall we?

Explain the following from Rev 20:2

•   How did Jesus lay hold of this supernatural dragon?
•   Why are we told it is the old Serpent from the Garden of Eden? (hint hint)
•   Where is the bottomless pit and how did he seal this pit?
•   In what way did this supernatural creature deceive the nations?
•   What is the reason for letting it go?

Look forward to you answering these questions with Bible verses.

Insight

# Little do you know but you have quoted the very verse which proves Jesus is on the earth at the beginning of the thousand year reign...I am left wondering why you cannot see it.

The He in Rev 20:2 is clearly speaking of the work of Yahweh through his Son on earth.

Putting the apparent symbology to one side lets consider the evidence.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,

The Old Serpent in the Garden represented what? And was on earth.

and bound him a thousand years

Thousand years is always referring to an earthly realm.


And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,

Again a pit is not in heaven but one earth and again putting the symbology of the pit to one side the reference is clearly earthly in nature.

that he should deceive the nations no more,

Oh dear LH - again Nations are earthly centralized political organisations on earth.

till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season

Again the thousand years is relating to nations, pit, peoples and kindred's, political powers all EARTHLY in their symbol.

I wonder if this has not also helped you with better understanding the symbolisms of the Satan and Devil?

Insight

QuoteWhich is he, the Devil or Satan?

He's both they are just different titles. Proven here.

Revelation 20:2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

QuoteCan you explain the symbolism?

I can give my views but the point was not to focus there but simply on the chronology. Christ at Right Hand until His enemies are destroyed. Death is the last enemy to be destroyed. The destruction of Death takes place after the Millinneium Age so Christ does not leave the Right Hand to reign on the Earth during the Millennium Age. I am not entirely sure what is your issue with this. Could you explain it to me?

QuoteClearly something is bound - but what?

Yes something is bound. His name is Satan among others.

QuoteBTW do you believe in dragons also?

No more than I believe in seven-honred lambs who can live after being slain. No more than I believe in seven-headed, ten-honred, leopard-body, lion-mouth, bear-feet sea monsters who rise out of the Aegean.

I don't understand the sarcasm. I don't believe Satan is a dragon only that he was symbollically described as a dragon. I do not believe that Christ has ever assumed the form of a seven-horned lamb holding a book of seven seals but I believe He was described as such.

The symbollic usage of the seven-horned lamb does not mean that Jesus Christ is really only a metaphoric construct to embody an idea and neither does the symbollic description of a dragon negate the existence of a real creature known as Lucifer.

QuoteLets entertain your supernatural notions for a little amusement shall we?

I'd rather we focus on the fundamentals that are being looked over here.

Quote# Little do you know but you have quoted the very verse whcih proves Jesus is on the earth at the beginning of the thousand year reign...I am left wondering why you cannot see it.

That doesn't add up Insight. You claim that the supernatural dragon is symbolic for something else but the person carrying the chians is literally descending from Heaven? It seems as if you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Either the selection is using symbollism to present a point or its not. You can't believe in a literal descension and a symbollic dragon. A literal figure with literal chains binding a symbollic dragon is simply distortion.

IMHO the verse is entirely symbollic. A power originating from Heaven conquers binds and subdues the Deciever for a thousand years(which I am a bit skeptical if a thousand is meant to be 1000 but thats neither here nor there).

We know Christ doesn't reign from anywhere but the Right Hand until His enemies have been destroyed. Death is the last enemy to be destroyed and that doesn't occur until after this Millennium period. It seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 20:43:21

QuoteWhich is he, the Devil or Satan?

He's both they are just different titles. Proven here.

Revelation 20:2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Proven you say.

How so? Can you show me what supports your inference?  You have prescribed a great deal of meaning to a word two words which mean "Adversary

Proven you say.

QuoteHow so? Can you show me what supports your inference?  You have prescribed a great deal of meaning to a word two words which mean "Adversary

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 17:28:55
Proven you say.

QuoteHow so? Can you show me what supports your inference?  You have prescribed a great deal of meaning to a word two words which mean "Adversary

QuoteAnd God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an satan against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.  (Num 22:22)

Now is God a Satan?

What sayest thou?

1. You inserted purposelly quoted the verse then on your own inserted the word satan. That was low even for an Arian. Anyone who knows anything about the Bible knows that only titles are translated like that.

2. The verse did not call God an adversay it called the angel He put in the way an adversary. Which only further proves that Satan is name and adversary is a description. You are not very good at this.

QuoteIn other words, you are saying, I am happy to continue to place an unbiblical inference on the word Satan and Devil symbolism because:

1.   I cannot think for myself
2.   I cannot support your belief
3.   Not open-minded to consider an alternative truth / understanding

I understand.

Nope I simply like to discuss one point at a time. You are the only one with preconceived notion here. Its a fairly young and western construct which is typical but its not that hard to refute.

Once we close the door on these open subtopics we will address this one. I don't how long that will be exactly seeing how you can't seem to stay focused.

QuoteNice try LH...When the Stone smites the earthly image (nations) what does that entail?

Take me to an Old Testament passage showing the battle and the return of Jesus Christ.

I doubt you are able.

The Old Testament and its prophecy didn't point to Christ's second coming at all. It referred to His first coming. Thats kind of the point.

QuoteRead it again, and again, and then read it without your preconceived notions and then if you still don't get that the Stone is Christ and the Image standing is representation of the Kingdoms of Men, which is to be replaced with another divine Kingdom on earth with a literal King and literal subjects and Saints reigning as per...

Yes the Church. We have already covered that. The first comind established the Church. That's what St. Daniel saw.

QuoteAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall (future tense) reign on the earth.  (Rev 5:10)

As per Jesus words in... That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luk 22:30)

Revelation 5:10 is fulfilled in its latter half by Revelation 21. Thats the New Age. Again I have no problem with that. We were discussing the Millennium Age.

The Apostles ascend their chairs along time ago. They are seen in Revelation sitting as the twnety four elders. Kind of hard to miss that one. 12 patriarchs of the tribes of Israle plus 12 judges.

12 + 12 +24?

No I am the only who caught that basic addition?

QuoteHe (Christ) shall (future tense) be great, and shall be called (future tense) the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall (future tense) give unto him the throne of his father David:  (Luk 1:32)

I mean what are you still waiting for?

Matthew 28:18And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;

I mean whats left to talk about?

Matthew 27:54And the centurion, and those with him watching Jesus, having seen the earthquake, and the things that were done, were exceedingly afraid, saying, `Truly this was God's Son.'

You are so late to the party and whats even more funny its almost over.

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 21:01:20

QuoteAnd God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an satan against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.  (Num 22:22)

Now is God a Satan?

What sayest thou?

1.   You inserted purposely quoted the verse then on your own inserted the word satan. That was low even for an Arian. Anyone who knows anything about the Bible knows that only titles are translated like that.

Not so my Catholic foe, but to prove a point which your response had aptly confirmed.  The word adversary has been translated with regard to the inference being placed upon it.  Here we see clearly an obedient Angel described as a satan (or adversary as the Word is interpreted).

Allow me to show forth your poor understanding of Scripture in the word "satan