Christian Forums

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 18:08:23

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37
I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

I apologize, I didn't realize that's what men do. But even so I don't think this applies to strictly masturbating. Is this the only scripture you find remotely close to masturbation being an abomination?

I'm not trying to debate you, I think that's great that you endorse that kind of control over the body, I do too, it is one of the greatest freedoms to not be slaves to our own bodies.

Its the only selection that others would deem concrete. Whether or not a person "feels" whatever way about masturbation, Genesis 38 is pretty much absolute when you understand how the male body works; a slam dunk if you will. The are other places where God has repaid the desecration or perversion of His sacred gift of sex with death. Prostitution warrants stoning. Homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah brought about the destruction of their city. There are several places where God makes it abundantly clear. Sex is only for marriage and any prevention of the natural execution of this sacred gift is a cardinal sin.

A lot of people including myself before I let go and and let God should consider ourselves lucky. While some sit back and resist the obvious truth of Onan's testimony if this had been before the coming of Christ you would've known how serious desecrating God's sacred gift is to Him when He knocked your lights out and you joined Abel crying out from the grave.

There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:15:48

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

Your advice is well, just voicing my opinion and annoyance of some of Gods laws. But I think evil is an appropriate term to use,  since God is the author of evil, but I'd rather be on his good side.

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:22:15

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:15:48

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

Your advice is well, just voicing my opinion and annoyance of some of Gods laws. But I think evil is an appropriate term to use,  since God is the author of evil, but I'd rather be on his good side.

What the deuce?

God is not the author of evil. God allows evil but He is not the author of it. An author makes something, creates it forms it. God does not ever form evil. Those whom He granted freewill formed it and in His grace and mercy He allowed it rather than strike them down in His wrath.

Completely different.

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

They still practice that in Islam, a woman married into a family is fair game to the brother in laws and father in law.

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 19:17:41

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 18:08:23

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37
I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

I apologize, I didn't realize that's what men do. But even so I don't think this applies to strictly masturbating. Is this the only scripture you find remotely close to masturbation being an abomination?

I'm not trying to debate you, I think that's great that you endorse that kind of control over the body, I do too, it is one of the greatest freedoms to not be slaves to our own bodies.

Its the only selection that others would deem concrete. Whether or not a person "feels" whatever way about masturbation, Genesis 38 is pretty much absolute when you understand how the male body works; a slam dunk if you will. The are other places where God has repaid the desecration or perversion of His sacred gift of sex with death. Prostitution warrants stoning. Homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah brought about the destruction of their city. There are several places where God makes it abundantly clear. Sex is only for marriage and any prevention of the natural execution of this sacred gift is a cardinal sin.

A lot of people including myself before I let go and and let God should consider ourselves lucky. While some sit back and resist the obvious truth of Onan's testimony if this had been before the coming of Christ you would've known how serious desecrating God's sacred gift is to Him when He knocked your lights out and you joined Abel crying out from the grave.

What do you think about condoms? A man doesn't masturbate with those and the seed is dumped outside of the woman's body. Since no masturbation is involved, is God ok with this?

And doesn't this only apply if you do it with your brother's wife?

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

? ? ? ?

I am not sure why you think this is "twisted" or "nonsense" or why you would call ANY command of God "evil."  God is not evil nor are any of his commands or teachings. Could you explain why you believe so?

This is definately off-topic. Perhaps you should answer in a new thread in the Theology folder?

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Perhaps that is TMI. I will let the mods decide on that. But I know that while many (perhaps most) men are "left hanging" so to speak in what you describe, it is certainly not the case of all men. Some are quite satisfied without any additional actions.

Quote from: IamStefanie on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:22:20

Quote from: happypromises on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 04:48:30
I don't think there are any rules prohibiting it, we each have to decide for ourselves if the act is emotionally and spiritually healthy or not. 

I will admit that while single,  things kinda escalated for me, so I purchased an 'item'.  The immediate feeling? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.   The feeling 20 minutes later?   Sad, low and maybe a sense that I had dishonoured God in some way.   I couldn't realistically go from that,  to then spending time with God, in prayer.   I felt like I needed to apologise.  I didn't immediately dispense with said item and returned to it, despite the low feeling.  One night in a church meeting, I felt like God convicted me of it...so I went home and it went in the garbage (the things garbage collectors must find!!!!    )

For me, it distanced me from God.  I would simply never say to someone else, 'it's wrong, it's sinful' because I honestly don't know if it is.  But for me, it wasn't the right way to deal with things.

^^^Well said. I have the same conviction....

Please see my post #60 above.  IMO you may have misintrepreted those "20 minutes later" feelings.

Dave, how did I misinterpret what someone else was saying?

Not what someone was saying but misintrepreting your own feelings (and the devil loves to be behind that).

What you experienced as guilt/condemnation may have actually just been lonliness. They both hit the pit of the gut similarly.  Re-read the post I directed you to.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 04:52:00

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 19:17:41

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 18:08:23

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37
I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

I apologize, I didn't realize that's what men do. But even so I don't think this applies to strictly masturbating. Is this the only scripture you find remotely close to masturbation being an abomination?

I'm not trying to debate you, I think that's great that you endorse that kind of control over the body, I do too, it is one of the greatest freedoms to not be slaves to our own bodies.

Its the only selection that others would deem concrete. Whether or not a person "feels" whatever way about masturbation, Genesis 38 is pretty much absolute when you understand how the male body works; a slam dunk if you will. The are other places where God has repaid the desecration or perversion of His sacred gift of sex with death. Prostitution warrants stoning. Homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah brought about the destruction of their city. There are several places where God makes it abundantly clear. Sex is only for marriage and any prevention of the natural execution of this sacred gift is a cardinal sin.

A lot of people including myself before I let go and and let God should consider ourselves lucky. While some sit back and resist the obvious truth of Onan's testimony if this had been before the coming of Christ you would've known how serious desecrating God's sacred gift is to Him when He knocked your lights out and you joined Abel crying out from the grave.

What do you think about condoms? A man doesn't masturbate with those and the seed is dumped outside of the woman's body. Since no masturbation is involved, is God ok with this?

And doesn't this only apply if you do it with your brother's wife?

The use of condoms is also abominable. Anything interruption to the natural execution of the sacred gift of sex is a sin. Only those who are forced into prostitution are exempt because if they do not use condoms they are presented with a very real threat of contracting serious diseases. Seeing how they are being forced into prostitution the moral law is not legalistic.

The brother's widow tradition is of the Old Covenant. It does not apply to us of the New Covenant. Leave a will.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:24:59

The use of condoms is also abominable. Anything interruption to the natural execution of the sacred gift of sex is a sin. Only those who are forced into prostitution are exempt because if they do not use condoms they are presented with a very real threat of contracting serious diseases. Seeing how they are being forced into prostitution the moral law is not legalistic.

There are willful prostitutes in Africa that are immune to AIDS and may hold the cure for it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/03/us/a-new-aids-mystery-prostitutes-who-have-remained-immune.html

QuoteThe brother's widow tradition is of the Old Covenant. It does not apply to us of the New Covenant. Leave a will.

So why worry about condoms and masturbating?

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 05:39:13

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Perhaps that is TMI. I will let the mods decide on that. But I know that while many (perhaps most) men are "left hanging" so to speak in what you describe, it is certainly not the case of all men. Some are quite satisfied without any additional actions.

It was absolutely necessary. It goes straight to the heart of the issue. Women who have no clue about the male body would make Bitter Sweet's mistake and not see how this is clearly masturbation. Men who have never been in Onan's would do the say.

I agree it may make some uncomfortable to address but it needed to be stressed. Thank Josiah and gospel. I was prepared to let it go but they really tried to act like Genesis 38 wasn't clearly describing masturbation and that Onan was killed for something he didn't do when the Bible says he died for something he did.

It frustrates me when people dance around the Bible and twist its clear words because they won't to do their own thing.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:29:25

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:24:59

The use of condoms is also abominable. Anything interruption to the natural execution of the sacred gift of sex is a sin. Only those who are forced into prostitution are exempt because if they do not use condoms they are presented with a very real threat of contracting serious diseases. Seeing how they are being forced into prostitution the moral law is not legalistic.

There are willful prostitutes in Africa that are immune to AIDS and may hold the cure for it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/03/us/a-new-aids-mystery-prostitutes-who-have-remained-immune.html

QuoteThe brother's widow tradition is of the Old Covenant. It does not apply to us of the New Covenant. Leave a will.

So why worry about condoms and masturbating?

1. Thanks for the info. Willful prostitution does not warrant the same exemption as forced prostitution.

2. Because its not about doing the act with your brother's widow. It's about doing the act period. Condoms, masturbation and other forms of contraception are desecration of God's sacred gift of sex. It's kind of that simple.

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:39:20

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:22:15

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:15:48

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

Your advice is well, just voicing my opinion and annoyance of some of Gods laws. But I think evil is an appropriate term to use,  since God is the author of evil, but I'd rather be on his good side.

What the deuce?

God is not the author of evil. God allows evil but He is not the author of it. An author makes something, creates it forms it. God does not ever form evil. Those whom He granted freewill formed it and in His grace and mercy He allowed it rather than strike them down in His wrath.

Completely different.

Your thinking of sin. Sin is different to evil. God does not bring us sin, but he brings us evil, to test us as in Jobs case or to punish us for our sins or nations for their sins.

sin is twisted, so that is why I delete reference to Gods law being twisted, but I still see it as evil. Because the moral aspect of love between the man and the wife is given second place next to the continuation of the name of his brother. So we see that pride of a family name is more important than love in this Jewish law.

But Christ has abolished these laws through death and resurection, so that we are under grace.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:35:54

1. Thanks for the info. Willful prostitution does not warrant the same exemption as forced prostitution.

Unless they come into repentance, may God bless them with that. Unfortunately the conditions they live under in Africa will make it hard for a woman to repent, it may be her only means.

Quote2. Because its not about doing the act with your brother's widow. It's about doing the act period. Condoms, masturbation and other forms of contraception are desecration of God's sacred gift of sex. It's kind of that simple.

How many children do you intend on having? 

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 05:34:27

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

? ? ? ?

I am not sure why you think this is "twisted" or "nonsense" or why you would call ANY command of God "evil."  God is not evil nor are any of his commands or teachings. Could you explain why you believe so?

This is definately off-topic. Perhaps you should answer in a new thread in the Theology folder?

I thought we were discussing the Onan story, who pulled out and refused to carry through as according to the Jewish law. Which means that it is not about masturbating and wasting seed, but about not performing his duty to his brothers wife.

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:45:12

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:39:20

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:22:15

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:15:48

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

Your advice is well, just voicing my opinion and annoyance of some of Gods laws. But I think evil is an appropriate term to use,  since God is the author of evil, but I'd rather be on his good side.

What the deuce?

God is not the author of evil. God allows evil but He is not the author of it. An author makes something, creates it forms it. God does not ever form evil. Those whom He granted freewill formed it and in His grace and mercy He allowed it rather than strike them down in His wrath.

Completely different.

Your thinking of sin. Sin is different to evil. God does not bring us sin, but he brings us evil, to test us as in Jobs case or to punish us for our sins or nations for their sins.

sin is twisted, so that is why I delete reference to Gods law being twisted, but I still see it as evil. Because the moral aspect of love between the man and the wife is given second place next to the continuation of the name of his brother. So we see that pride of a family name is more important than love in this Jewish law.

But Christ has abolished these laws through death and resurection, so that we are under grace.

Apart from the fact that you do not properly understand the point of law calling God's law evil should be enough for anyone to fall back on.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:49:33

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:35:54

1. Thanks for the info. Willful prostitution does not warrant the same exemption as forced prostitution.

Unless they come into repentance, may God bless them with that. Unfortunately the conditions they live under in Africa will make it hard for a woman to repent, it may be her only means.

Quote2. Because its not about doing the act with your brother's widow. It's about doing the act period. Condoms, masturbation and other forms of contraception are desecration of God's sacred gift of sex. It's kind of that simple.

How many children do you intend on having? 

1. You watch too much tv. Africa is so not that bad.

2. I want to have at least two a boy and a girl but God's Will will dictate on the number just as His love will provide for whatever size family He leaves in my care.

So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Good thing too otherwise a lot of us would be messed up.

For the record LightHammer, I barely watch any TV, it must have been left over from the National Geographic shows I saw in the 80's or the movie "the god's must be crazy".

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Christ specifically said that He did not abolish the law but He fulfilled it. The Old Law wasn't evil Firesword. It was incomplete and insufficient. Hebrews should clear this up on its own. Go back in and look at it.

The granted partial communion with God. The New Covenant grants total communion. No mediator but God the Son. No priesthood between me and Big Guy. Yes it's like a billion times better but that doesn't make the Old Law evil.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:33:25

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Christ specifically said that He did not abolish the law but He fulfilled it. The Old Law wasn't evil Firesword. It was incomplete and insufficient. Hebrews should clear this up on its own. Go back in and look at it.

The granted partial communion with God. The New Covenant grants total communion. No mediator but God the Son. No priesthood between me and Big Guy. Yes it's like a billion times better but that doesn't make the Old Law evil.

Yes it says the law is spiritual and good. Don't get hung up on the word evil, it may be strange to see God as evil, but this is what scriptures say, that God has a dark side to him and chastizes his sons.
The laws led people to bondage and could not be set free by obeying these laws, so in a sense that is evil, because God gave them laws that would never save them, but designed to break them as a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ.  Under the new covenant a brother is no longer required to help his deceased brother bring birth to his widow and I think most today in Christ would heartedly reject such a requirement as being evil and morally wrong and no widow would expect such behaviour.

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 16:01:27

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:33:25

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Christ specifically said that He did not abolish the law but He fulfilled it. The Old Law wasn't evil Firesword. It was incomplete and insufficient. Hebrews should clear this up on its own. Go back in and look at it.

The granted partial communion with God. The New Covenant grants total communion. No mediator but God the Son. No priesthood between me and Big Guy. Yes it's like a billion times better but that doesn't make the Old Law evil.

Yes it says the law is spiritual and good. Don't get hung up on the word evil, it may be strange to see God as evil, but this is what scriptures say, that God has a dark side to him and chastizes his sons.
The laws led people to bondage and could not be set free by obeying these laws, so in a sense that is evil, because God gave them laws that would never save them, but designed to break them as a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ.  Under the new covenant a brother is no longer required to help his deceased brother bring birth to his widow and I think most today in Christ would heartedly reject such a requirement as being evil and morally wrong and no widow would expect such behaviour.

What the deuce?! You sound like a gnostic.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


You are seriously flirting with blasphemy I would really check myself and the Sacred Scriptures if I were you.

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Read the context.  The "them" was not refering to either the covenant or the laws but to those people who were constantly violating the laws.

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 16:01:27
Yes it says the law is spiritual and good. Don't get hung up on the word evil, it may be strange to see God as evil, but this is what scriptures say, that God has a dark side to him and chastizes his sons.

There is NOTHING in GOD that is dark or evil.  He is ENTIRELY GOOD.  Indeed His person is the definition of Good.

What is so dark or evil in discipline?

Quote from: fassopony on Fri May 20, 2011 - 16:49:59
Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

As I was going thru my past posts, I realized I posted in this thread somewhat off-topicly and never addressed the OP.  Shame on me!

Is masturbation a sin?

I do not believe it is, within certain bounds.  If you are filling your mind with lustful thoughts or pretending you are having sex with someone you are not married to, then it probably is sinful. If you are married and using it to avoid joining with your spouse it DEFINATELY is.
But if you are using it to relieve certain needs, or relaxation of stress, I see no problem with it. And if you use it to keep from falling into having sex with someone you shouldn't, then it becomes the "way of escape" Paul wrote about. (1 Corinthians 10:13)

Did God say it is?

There is no direct mention of it in scripture, either testament. There may be a few indirect allusions to it; the clearest being Song of Solomon chapter 5 where Shulamite's fingers are dripping with "myrrh," shown in the previous chapter to be symbolic of her arousal.

What about lust or desire?  

Lust is an improper, very strong desire. Normal desire for sex (even VERY STRONG desire) is neither lust nor sinful.  It is the way God designed us. If you take that strong desire and focus it on someone you are not married to, then it becomes sinful lust.

What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?

Attraction itself is healthy.  Avoiding it is not. Having it under proper constraints makes the difference between good and sinful. Focusing too much on the physical can make attraction unhealthy.

Look at GODLY CHARACTER first and foremost.  That should be the first part of attraction.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue May 01, 2012 - 11:35:14

Quote from: fassopony on Fri May 20, 2011 - 16:49:59
Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

As I was going thru my past posts, I realized I posted in this thread somewhat off-topicly and never addressed the OP.  Shame on me!

Is masturbation a sin?

I do not believe it is, within certain bounds.  If you are filling your mind with lustful thoughts or pretending you are having sex with someone you are not married to, then it probably is sinful. If you are married and using it to avoid joining with your spouse it DEFINATELY is.
But if you are using it to relieve certain needs, or relaxation of stress, I see no problem with it. And if you use it to keep from falling into having sex with someone you shouldn't, then it becomes the "way of escape" Paul wrote about. (1 Corinthians 10:13)

Did God say it is?

There is no direct mention of it in scripture, either testament. There may be a few indirect allusions to it; the clearest being Song of Solomon chapter 5 where Shulamite's fingers are dripping with "myrrh," shown in the previous chapter to be symbolic of her arousal.

What about lust or desire?  

Lust is an improper, very strong desire. Normal desire for sex (even VERY STRONG desire) is neither lust nor sinful.  It is the way God designed us. If you take that strong desire and focus it on someone you are not married to, then it becomes sinful lust.

What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?

Attraction itself is healthy.  Avoiding it is not. Having it under proper constraints makes the difference between good and sinful. Focusing too much on the physical can make attraction unhealthy.

Look at GODLY CHARACTER first and foremost.  That should be the first part of attraction.

So what was Onan doing in Genesis then?

QuoteSo what was Onan doing in Genesis then?

It is called coitus intruptus, the withdrawl method of birth control.  Have intercourse (not M) and then pull out at the critical moment.

While it was not yet codified in Law; to not raise up an heir to a deceased brother was understood as a violation of the family covenant. He refused build up his brother's legacy.  THAT is what he got killed for.

As it is written: "Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother's wife he would waste the semen on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother." Gen 38.9

Quote from: DaveW on Thu May 03, 2012 - 05:57:33

QuoteSo what was Onan doing in Genesis then?

It is called coitus intruptus, the withdrawl method of birth control.  Have intercourse (not M) and then pull out at the critical moment.

While it was not yet codified in Law; to not raise up an heir to a deceased brother was understood as a violation of the family covenant. He refused build up his brother's legacy.  THAT is what he got killed for.

As it is written: "Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother's wife he would waste the semen on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother." Gen 38.9

Coitus Intruptus can not work without masturbation. Why is that so hard to understand. You can't just "pull out at the critical moment" and then spill your seed. It is not possible. The male reproductive organ does not work like that.

Furthermore Onan wasn't not killed for a negative action he was killed for a positive action. If he had been punished for refusing to do his duty to his brother he would have been publically humiliated not killed as is tradition set down by God's action.

QuoteCoitus Intruptus can not work without masturbation. Why is that so hard to understand. You can't just "pull out at the critical moment" and then spill your seed. It is not possible. The male reproductive organ does not work like that.

Actually it does.  At the risk of being to graphic and negative, the infamous Dr Mengle (of the 3rd reich) did experiments on his Jewish prisoners and proved that once the male reached the point of "Ejaculatory inevitability" that NOTHING stopped him from ejaculating, not even death. (shot in the head, decapitated, etc) So your statement does not conform to medical understanding.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon May 07, 2012 - 06:23:27

QuoteCoitus Intruptus can not work without masturbation. Why is that so hard to understand. You can't just "pull out at the critical moment" and then spill your seed. It is not possible. The male reproductive organ does not work like that.

Actually it does.  At the risk of being to graphic and negative, the infamous Dr Mengle (of the 3rd reich) did experiments on his Jewish prisoners and proved that once the male reached the point of "Ejaculatory inevitability" that NOTHING stopped him from ejaculating, not even death. (shot in the head, decapitated, etc) So your statement does not conform to medical understanding.

That proves very interesting, although it seems like an extreme case. Dead bodies tend to do a lot of things such as give off flatulence so I can see that. I wonder if you can provide a link or reference to the source? I'm curious as to see whether or not medical science attests to this in normal life.

Do a google search on "Ejaculatory inevitability."  That should tell you all you need to know.  I cannot access any of those sites from here as this is a gov't computer.