Christian Forums

Quote from: howard on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 21:28:31
Here is truth

Trinity is not written in God's word
Fact

God the Holy ghost or holy spirit is not written in God's word
Fact

The trinity doctrine was established in the 4th century by emperor Constantine
Fact

The RCC convened that council
Fact

The Orthodox adopted all or most of the RCC doctrine even the trinity doctrine
Fact

The Protestants adopted all of the RCC doctrine even the trinity the protest was not about doctrine
FACT

God the HS is absent from the Godhead, throne room of God and he has no throne to sit on
Fact

Where is the truth you claim to have?

Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If God the Father was not also God the Son, and also God the Holy Spirit, then this instruction would be heresy.

Quote from: howard on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 21:28:31

Written by Howard

Here is truth

Trinity is not written in God's word
FACT

God the Holy ghost or holy spirit is not written in God's word
FACT

The trinity doctrine was established in the 4th century by emperor Constantine
FACT

The RCC convened that council
FACT

The Orthodox adopted all or most of the RCC doctrine even the trinity doctrine
FACT

The Protestants adopted all of the RCC doctrine even the trinity the protest was not about doctrine
FALSE

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 00:24:39


Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If God the Father was not also God the Son, and also God the Holy Spirit, then this instruction would be heresy.

I have never heard a trinitarian say the Father was ALSO the Son and the Holy Spirit. I thought the doctrine is three distinct persons.. the Father, who is NOT the Son or the Spirit, the Son who is NOT the Spirit or the Father etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 01:22:28

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 00:24:39


Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If God the Father was not also God the Son, and also God the Holy Spirit, then this instruction would be heresy.

I have never heard a trinitarian say the Father was ALSO the Son and the Holy Spirit. I thought the doctrine is three distinct persons.. the Father, who is NOT the Son or the Spirit, the Son who is NOT the Spirit or the Father etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity

That's right. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are three in One Holy God. If the Three were not One God, then that instruction to us would be heretical. (I may have balled it up a bit---thank you for noticing!)

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 17:20:47

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 16:54:22
These are the beliefs that you need to have to be on this forum, as follows.If anyone does not adhere to the following they shouldnt be here.Its 100% Biblical.

So then why do they have a non-traditional theology forum if they don't allow people with non-traditional views? The Nicene Creed is traditional and those who don't adhere to all aspects of it post on this "NT" forum.

Sorry they are the rules of this forum.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 17:38:48

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 17:20:47

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 16:54:22
These are the beliefs that you need to have to be on this forum, as follows.If anyone does not adhere to the following they shouldn't be here.Its 100% Biblical.

So then why do they have a nontraditional theology forum if they don't allow people with nontraditional views? The Nicene Creed is traditional and those who don't adhere to all aspects of it post on this "NT" forum.

Thank You for posting this and asking this question. I look forward to Chosenone's response.

Chosenone, I do believe in God, I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe in the Holy Spirit, I just don't believe in the trinity doctrine that the Orthodox and Catholic church created. Trinity isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible and I just like to stick the words in the bible, no need to add any of man's words.  Is there any rule against sticking to only God's word?

I just noticed, I don't see the word trinity mentioned in the rules either.

That's what trinity means bittersweet. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You are agreeing with men here who don't believe this . One of them thinks that The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel    and another doesn't believe that Jesus was always with the Father or that He is God. Don't you even read their posts properly?? You are so easily influenced bittersweet, and you get blown around by all the winds of change and all the weird and heretical doctrines that people come here with. 

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:45:58
That's what trinity means bittersweet. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You are agreeing with men here who don't believe this . One of them thinks that The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel    and another doesn't believe that Jesus was always with the Father or that He is God. Don't you even read their posts properly?? You are so easily influenced bittersweet, and you get blown around by all the winds of change and all the weird and heretical doctrines that people come here with.

I agree with bittersweet here... I believe in God the Father (Unbegotten God), His Only Begotten Son (God of God) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Father and Son) but I don't adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity (which says these are three persons but one God.) Personally, the Holy Spirit as a third and distinct person is where I disagree.

So you don't actually have to believe in the Trinity doctrine as taught by the RCC to believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:36:54

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 17:20:47

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 16:54:22
These are the beliefs that you need to have to be on this forum, as follows.If anyone does not adhere to the following they shouldnt be here.Its 100% Biblical.

So then why do they have a non-traditional theology forum if they don't allow people with non-traditional views? The Nicene Creed is traditional and those who don't adhere to all aspects of it post on this "NT" forum.

Sorry they are the rules of this forum.

That may be, but the very existence of this "non-traditional theology" forum shows they have allowed us to be here. 

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.



Here we have God and his voice and his spirit.

The Father the son and the Holy spirit.3

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 04:02:18

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:45:58
That's what trinity means bittersweet. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You are agreeing with men here who don't believe this . One of them thinks that The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel    and another doesn't believe that Jesus was always with the Father or that He is God. Don't you even read their posts properly?? You are so easily influenced bittersweet, and you get blown around by all the winds of change and all the weird and heretical doctrines that people come here with.

I agree with bittersweet here... I believe in God the Father (Unbegotten God), His Only Begotten Son (God of God) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Father and Son) but I don't adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity (which says these are three persons but one God.) Personally, the Holy Spirit as a third and distinct person is where I disagree.

So you don't actually have to believe in the Trinity doctrine as taught by the RCC to believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

How do you "believe in" a thing that is merely the life/breath of God and not a distinct person?

Also, you should know that the understanding of God as triune in nature has been the Christian understanding of God since the inception of Christianity. This is not an RCC doctrine, it is a Christian truth.

While clearly affirming the unique Christian understanding of God as three-in-one, the early Christians progressively attempted to rethink and express that reality. Finding words in different languages to attempt to explain the content of the triple distinction and the singular oneness of God has always been difficult.

Do not confuse mans attempt to explain what is not totally explainable to the finite mind with the reality of the nature of God as He has revealed Himself to us.

I wonder if this makes any difference. When I translate Holy Spirit from the language I've heard it said in all my life it say's, Light Ghost. That's from the orthodox.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 04:17:40

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:36:54

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 17:20:47

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 16:54:22
These are the beliefs that you need to have to be on this forum, as follows.If anyone does not adhere to the following they shouldnt be here.Its 100% Biblical.

So then why do they have a non-traditional theology forum if they don't allow people with non-traditional views? The Nicene Creed is traditional and those who don't adhere to all aspects of it post on this "NT" forum.

Sorry they are the rules of this forum.

That may be, but the very existence of this "non-traditional theology" forum shows they have allowed us to be here. 

True. Why does this forum exist Chosenone? Clearly other people don't believe in the trinity. Are you on a witch hunt?

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 04:02:18

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:45:58
That's what trinity means bittersweet. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You are agreeing with men here who don't believe this . One of them thinks that The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel    and another doesn't believe that Jesus was always with the Father or that He is God. Don't you even read their posts properly?? You are so easily influenced bittersweet, and you get blown around by all the winds of change and all the weird and heretical doctrines that people come here with.

I agree with bittersweet here... I believe in God the Father (Unbegotten God), His Only Begotten Son (God of God) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Father and Son) but I don't adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity (which says these are three persons but one God.) Personally, the Holy Spirit as a third and distinct person is where I disagree.

So you don't actually have to believe in the Trinity doctrine as taught by the RCC to believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

IT doesnt matter what you call it, as long as you believe it.
By the way nearly all demoninations teach this doctrine and not only the RCC. I have never been to a RCC church in my life apart from my aunts wedding.

Baptise them in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy spirts. Seperate but one.

I know this is unrelated to the discussion at hand, but tonight, unlike any other night I weep at the lack of understanding in this forum.  It reminds of the Egyptians who many were forced to remain in their beds, for the darkness was so great it could be felt. You all are groping and stumbling in the dark and you think you have light.  Your posts are like the screams of those Egyptians tripping over their tables and chairs as they seek to find food or water those three days. Their scream echoes' through the streets as they come to grips with the cold darkness upon their skin.

Your theological ramblings reveal a your lack of sight and no ones desire's to know truth, but in their own strenght with Roman Creeds under arm you post away one after another.

You live in the times of Amos.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: (Amos 8:11)

Those days are upon us.

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 07:40:17

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 04:02:18

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:45:58
That's what trinity means bittersweet. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You are agreeing with men here who don't believe this . One of them thinks that The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel    and another doesn't believe that Jesus was always with the Father or that He is God. Don't you even read their posts properly?? You are so easily influenced bittersweet, and you get blown around by all the winds of change and all the weird and heretical doctrines that people come here with.

I agree with bittersweet here... I believe in God the Father (Unbegotten God), His Only Begotten Son (God of God) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Father and Son) but I don't adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity (which says these are three persons but one God.) Personally, the Holy Spirit as a third and distinct person is where I disagree.

So you don't actually have to believe in the Trinity doctrine as taught by the RCC to believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

IT doesnt matter what you call it, as long as you believe it.
By the way nearly all demoninations teach this doctrine and not only the RCC. I have never been to a RCC church in my life apart from my aunts wedding.

Baptise them in the name of the Father, The Son and The Holy spirts. Seperate but one.

I've always believed in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I just don't understand where you got that I don't. Either way, I forgive you for pointing the finger at me for nothing.  I was baptized in the Orthodox church too.

It also kinda hurts my feelings Chosenone, you know I am not friends with this world and all of my fellowship is here. Last night I felt really scared and this was one of the places I came because I feel safe. But you didn't make me feel safe or welcome anymore.

Quote from: Clarity on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 07:42:47
I know this is unrelated to the discussion at hand, but tonight, unlike any other night I weep at the lack of understanding in this forum.  It reminds of the Egyptians who many were forced to remain in their beds, for the darkness was so great it could be felt. You all are groping and stumbling in the dark and you think you have light.  Your posts are like the screams of those Egyptians tripping over their tables and chairs as they seek to find food or water those three days. Their scream echoes' through the streets as they come to grips with the cold darkness upon their skin.

Your theological ramblings reveal a your lack of sight and no ones desire's to know truth, but in their own strenght with Roman Creeds under arm you post away one after another.

You live in the times of Amos.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: (Amos 8:11)

Those days are upon us.

Well now, that is interesting. You come onto a Christian forum, deny every tenant of the Christian faith, and then weep for our lack of understanding?

The Apostle Paul wept for those like you, not those like us. He wept for those who live as enemies of the cross. Those who claim a superior knowledge of God and in the same breath deny the One who is the Lord God and Savior.

You, who deny the Word would preach to us who are of that very Word, about the Word? We who have the Word, are the deaf, but you who deny the Word claim to be able to hear. Ironic indeed.

And we lack sight? And we have no desire to know truth? We are the ones stumbling in the dark, thinking we have light? If only you had eyes to see, then you would see that what you pile upon others is only a projection of yourself. It is you who are blind.

Weep for yourself, for it is those days that are upon you.

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 09:44:51

Quote from: Clarity on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 07:42:47
I know this is unrelated to the discussion at hand, but tonight, unlike any other night I weep at the lack of understanding in this forum.  It reminds of the Egyptians who many were forced to remain in their beds, for the darkness was so great it could be felt. You all are groping and stumbling in the dark and you think you have light.  Your posts are like the screams of those Egyptians tripping over their tables and chairs as they seek to find food or water those three days. Their scream echoes' through the streets as they come to grips with the cold darkness upon their skin.

Your theological ramblings reveal a your lack of sight and no ones desire's to know truth, but in their own strenght with Roman Creeds under arm you post away one after another.

You live in the times of Amos.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: (Amos 8:11)

Those days are upon us.

Well now, that is interesting. You come onto a Christian forum, deny every tenant of the Christian faith, and then weep for our lack of understanding?

The Apostle Paul wept for those like you, not those like us. He wept for those who live as enemies of the cross. Those who claim a superior knowledge of God and in the same breath deny the One who is the Lord God and Savior.

You, who deny the Word would preach to us who are of that very Word, about the Word? We who have the Word, are the deaf, but you who deny the Word claim to be able to hear. Ironic indeed.

And we lack sight? And we have no desire to know truth? We are the ones stumbling in the dark, thinking we have light? If only you had eyes to see, then you would see that what you pile upon others is only a projection of yourself. It is you who are blind.

Weep for yourself, for it is those days that are upon you.

Manna!! 

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 04:02:18

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:45:58
That's what trinity means bittersweet. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You are agreeing with men here who don't believe this . One of them thinks that The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel    and another doesn't believe that Jesus was always with the Father or that He is God. Don't you even read their posts properly?? You are so easily influenced bittersweet, and you get blown around by all the winds of change and all the weird and heretical doctrines that people come here with.

I agree with bittersweet here... I believe in God the Father (Unbegotten God), His Only Begotten Son (God of God) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Father and Son) but I don't adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity (which says these are three persons but one God.) Personally, the Holy Spirit as a third and distinct person is where I disagree.

So you don't actually have to believe in the Trinity doctrine as taught by the RCC to believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

If you look at the scriptures of John it is possible to be saved by just beleiving in the Son.

He who has the father has the Son also.

But he that denieth the son denieth the Father.

this makes sense, because if you deny Jesus whom God Father sent, then you deny him his Son who his made in His image and sin also stands in between you and Father God.

however if one denies the Father but accepts the Son, then because you see jesus and like Jesus, then it is obvious that one would love  the Father also, because they are very similar, as one. the blood of Jesus abolishes the emnity between God and man.

I am not sure what happens when one denies the holy spirit as this is not directly addressed, unlike the Father.

But jesus said that blasphemy against the spirit shall not be forgiven in this age or the next age to come. This shows that the holy spirit is regarded in very high esteem with the Son.

Quote from: FireSword on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 12:05:06
But jesus said that blasphemy against the spirit shall not be forgiven in this age or the next age to come. This shows that the holy spirit is regarded in very high esteem with the Son.

OOOH!  Good point!  So, the Holy Spirit MUST be more than just Gabriel. 

If you deny his spirit then he doesn't know you.You have no fellowship with him.No union.

Quote from: FireSword on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 12:05:06

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 04:02:18

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:45:58
That's what trinity means bittersweet. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You are agreeing with men here who don't believe this . One of them thinks that The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel    and another doesn't believe that Jesus was always with the Father or that He is God. Don't you even read their posts properly?? You are so easily influenced bittersweet, and you get blown around by all the winds of change and all the weird and heretical doctrines that people come here with.

I agree with bittersweet here... I believe in God the Father (Unbegotten God), His Only Begotten Son (God of God) and the Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Father and Son) but I don't adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity (which says these are three persons but one God.) Personally, the Holy Spirit as a third and distinct person is where I disagree.

So you don't actually have to believe in the Trinity doctrine as taught by the RCC to believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

If you look at the scriptures of John it is possible to be saved by just beleiving in the Son.

He who has the father has the Son also.

But he that denieth the son denieth the Father.

this makes sense, because if you deny Jesus whom God Father sent, then you deny him his Son who his made in His image and sin also stands in between you and Father God.

however if one denies the Father but accepts the Son, then because you see jesus and like Jesus, then it is obvious that one would love  the Father also, because they are very similar, as one. the blood of Jesus abolishes the emnity between God and man.

I am not sure what happens when one denies the holy spirit as this is not directly addressed, unlike the Father.

But jesus said that blasphemy against the spirit shall not be forgiven in this age or the next age to come. This shows that the holy spirit is regarded in very high esteem with the Son.

I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

ps- I do not agree with whoever says the Spirit is Gabriel... I believe the Spirit of God is the very Breath of God Himself.. therefore inseparable and not distinct from the Father or the Son.

Quote from: bemark on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 12:33:40
If you deny his spirit then he doesn't know you.You have no fellowship with him.No union.

Thanks for making this comment, it brought to mind this verse.

Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

How can we speak against Jesus, and be forgiven if there is a trinity? Even denying that Jesus is God is forgiven, it doesn't seem to be as serious as most people make it out to be.

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:45:58
That's what trinity means bittersweet. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You are agreeing with men here who don't believe this . One of them thinks that The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel    and another doesn't believe that Jesus was always with the Father or that He is God. Don't you even read their posts properly?? You are so easily influenced bittersweet, and you get blown around by all the winds of change and all the weird and heretical doctrines that people come here with.

I'll take that as a compliment, Manna!

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Quote from: FireSword on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 12:05:06

But jesus said that blasphemy against the spirit shall not be forgiven in this age or the next age to come. This shows that the holy spirit is regarded in very high esteem with the Son.

In this passage there were those who were attributing the power of God to devils... but Jesus said it was those very works that bore witness of Him, that He is the Anointed One of God. So if they would not receive the witness God gave of His Son, and instead they were convinced Jesus did those things by the power of Beelzebub, they would have no other witness, therefore no repentance. This is why there could be no forgiveness for speaking against the Spirit.

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to reject the witness of God. That's how I understand it.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:13:42

Quote from: bemark on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 12:33:40
If you deny his spirit then he doesn't know you.You have no fellowship with him.No union.

Thanks for making this comment, it brought to mind this verse.

Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

How can we speak against Jesus, and be forgiven if there is a trinity? Even denying that Jesus is God is forgiven, it doesn't seem to be as serious as most people make it out to be.

Before we are saved we can dish God and Jesus and that can be forgiven but to be saved and deny the way that God relates to us by his Holy Spirit is unforgivable.And then go around and start telling people that that wasn't the Holy Spirit.Really But Lord I cast out demons in your name.......depart from me as I never knew you.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11); and He could not be lied to (Acts 5:3).

Jesus Himself identifies the Holy Spirit as a Person in John 16:13, "when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth..".

These are all qualities of personhood, and not that of a mere force, power or life/breath.

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:48:45

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11); and He could not be lied to (Acts 5:3).

Jesus Himself identifies the Holy Spirit as a Person in John 16:13, "when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth..".

These are all qualities of personhood, and not that of a mere force, power or life/breath.

Quote from: bemark on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:46:19

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:13:42

Quote from: bemark on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 12:33:40
If you deny his spirit then he doesn't know you.You have no fellowship with him.No union.

Thanks for making this comment, it brought to mind this verse.

Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

How can we speak against Jesus, and be forgiven if there is a trinity? Even denying that Jesus is God is forgiven, it doesn't seem to be as serious as most people make it out to be.

Before we are saved we can dish God and Jesus and that can be forgiven but to be saved and deny the way that God relates to us by his Holy Spirit is unforgivable.And then go around and start telling people that that wasn't the Holy Spirit.Really But Lord I cast out demons in your name.......depart from me as I never knew you.

Really good point. When  the spirit came upon me, I couldn't deny what I had been shown but at that same time I was denying that God existed because I honestly didn't know what was happening to me. Lucky for me I couldn't deny something I knew nothing about! lol!

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:48:45

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11); and He could not be lied to (Acts 5:3).

Jesus Himself identifies the Holy Spirit as a Person in John 16:13, "when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth..".

These are all qualities of personhood, and not that of a mere force, power or life/breath.

I wouldn't call the Breath of Life "mere"... the Spirit is God's Wisdom, the Truth and is not distinct from Father or Son. If one lies to the Spirit they lie to the Father Himself, not to another person within the Godhead.

Would you make a distinction between the spirit of a man and the man himself?

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 14:50:19

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:48:45

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11); and He could not be lied to (Acts 5:3).

Jesus Himself identifies the Holy Spirit as a Person in John 16:13, "when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth..".

These are all qualities of personhood, and not that of a mere force, power or life/breath.

I wouldn't call the Breath of Life "mere"... the Spirit is God's Wisdom, the Truth and is not distinct from Father or Son. If one lies to the Spirit they lie to the Father Himself, not to another person within the Godhead.

Would you make a distinction between the spirit of a man and the man himself?

That's all very interesting, but you failed to address the passages that clearly identify the Holy Spirit as a Person.

Man is not God. God is three distinct Persons in One Being. Man is one being who functions on three distinct levels...body, soul and spirit.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

ps- I do not agree with whoever says the Spirit is Gabriel... I believe the Spirit of God is the very Breath of God Himself.. therefore inseparable and not distinct from the Father or the Son.

Something for you to think about:

During the Old Covenant, God was the main active force in the lives of His people. During the onset of the New Testament, Jesus, the Son was the active force of God in the lives of people. Then after Jesus ascended to the Father, He sent Holy Spirit as He promised, who has been with us ever since. Are there not three manifestations of God? Three distinct persons?

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:16:25

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 03:45:58
That's what trinity means bittersweet. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You are agreeing with men here who don't believe this . One of them thinks that The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel    and another doesn't believe that Jesus was always with the Father or that He is God. Don't you even read their posts properly?? You are so easily influenced bittersweet, and you get blown around by all the winds of change and all the weird and heretical doctrines that people come here with.

I'll take that as a compliment, Manna!

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Uh...no. She was warning you, thinking of this verse:

Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won't be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 15:53:20

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

ps- I do not agree with whoever says the Spirit is Gabriel... I believe the Spirit of God is the very Breath of God Himself.. therefore inseparable and not distinct from the Father or the Son.

Something for you to think about:

During the Old Covenant, God was the main active force in the lives of His people. During the onset of the New Testament, Jesus, the Son was the active force of God in the lives of people. Then after Jesus ascended to the Father, He sent Holy Spirit as He promised, who has been with us ever since. Are there not three manifestations of God? Three distinct persons?

I'll think for awhile about how to answer this.. but let me ask you something: Is the Holy Spirit Begotten God or Unbegotten God?

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 16:39:59

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 15:53:20

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

ps- I do not agree with whoever says the Spirit is Gabriel... I believe the Spirit of God is the very Breath of God Himself.. therefore inseparable and not distinct from the Father or the Son.

Something for you to think about:

During the Old Covenant, God was the main active force in the lives of His people. During the onset of the New Testament, Jesus, the Son was the active force of God in the lives of people. Then after Jesus ascended to the Father, He sent Holy Spirit as He promised, who has been with us ever since. Are there not three manifestations of God? Three distinct persons?

I'll think for awhile about how to answer this.. but let me ask you something: Is the Holy Spirit Begotten God or Unbegotten God?

Why does eternal Spirit need to be begotten?

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 16:52:26

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 16:39:59

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 15:53:20

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

ps- I do not agree with whoever says the Spirit is Gabriel... I believe the Spirit of God is the very Breath of God Himself.. therefore inseparable and not distinct from the Father or the Son.

Something for you to think about:

During the Old Covenant, God was the main active force in the lives of His people. During the onset of the New Testament, Jesus, the Son was the active force of God in the lives of people. Then after Jesus ascended to the Father, He sent Holy Spirit as He promised, who has been with us ever since. Are there not three manifestations of God? Three distinct persons?

I'll think for awhile about how to answer this.. but let me ask you something: Is the Holy Spirit Begotten God or Unbegotten God?

Why does eternal Spirit need to be begotten?

You could ask then why the eternal Son needs to be begotten....

The Father is the only Unbegotten God. Jesus Christ is the only Begotten of the Father. Where does that leave the Holy Spirit as a third person?