Christian Forums

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 15:17:52

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 14:50:19

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:48:45

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11); and He could not be lied to (Acts 5:3).

Jesus Himself identifies the Holy Spirit as a Person in John 16:13, "when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth..".

These are all qualities of personhood, and not that of a mere force, power or life/breath.

I wouldn't call the Breath of Life "mere"... the Spirit is God's Wisdom, the Truth and is not distinct from Father or Son. If one lies to the Spirit they lie to the Father Himself, not to another person within the Godhead.

Would you make a distinction between the spirit of a man and the man himself?

That's all very interesting, but you failed to address the passages that clearly identify the Holy Spirit as a Person.

On the contrary, I said that to lie to the Spirit is to lie to the Father, not to a distinct person in the Godhead. When the Spirit speaks it is God's Wisdom and Truth speaking, the Father Himself is speaking.. not a distinct person. I figured you would have gathered where I was going with that. I realize Man is not God  I brought that up to make a point, the Father's Spirit is not a distinct person within Him... it is His own Breath of Life, proceeding from Himself... a river of living water!

I just don't buy this Roman Catholic Doctrine. Sorry.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 17:31:25

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 15:17:52

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 14:50:19

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:48:45

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11); and He could not be lied to (Acts 5:3).

Jesus Himself identifies the Holy Spirit as a Person in John 16:13, "when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth..".

These are all qualities of personhood, and not that of a mere force, power or life/breath.

I wouldn't call the Breath of Life "mere"... the Spirit is God's Wisdom, the Truth and is not distinct from Father or Son. If one lies to the Spirit they lie to the Father Himself, not to another person within the Godhead.

Would you make a distinction between the spirit of a man and the man himself?

That's all very interesting, but you failed to address the passages that clearly identify the Holy Spirit as a Person.

On the contrary, I said that to lie to the Spirit is to lie to the Father, not to a distinct person in the Godhead. When the Spirit speaks it is God's Wisdom and Truth speaking, the Father Himself is speaking.. not a distinct person. I figured you would have gathered where I was going with that. I realize Man is not God  I brought that up to make a point, the Father's Spirit is not a distinct person within Him... it is His own Breath of Life, proceeding from Himself... a river of living water!

I just don't buy this Roman Catholic Doctrine. Sorry.

As I have already explained to you, this is not a RCC doctrine, it is a Christian truth. Obviously you are not interested in seriously considering what scripture says. Your in the right forum, for sure.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 17:31:25

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 15:17:52

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 14:50:19

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:48:45

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11); and He could not be lied to (Acts 5:3).

Jesus Himself identifies the Holy Spirit as a Person in John 16:13, "when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth..".

These are all qualities of personhood, and not that of a mere force, power or life/breath.

I wouldn't call the Breath of Life "mere"... the Spirit is God's Wisdom, the Truth and is not distinct from Father or Son. If one lies to the Spirit they lie to the Father Himself, not to another person within the Godhead.

Would you make a distinction between the spirit of a man and the man himself?

That's all very interesting, but you failed to address the passages that clearly identify the Holy Spirit as a Person.

On the contrary, I said that to lie to the Spirit is to lie to the Father, not to a distinct person in the Godhead. When the Spirit speaks it is God's Wisdom and Truth speaking, the Father Himself is speaking.. not a distinct person. I figured you would have gathered where I was going with that. I realize Man is not God  I brought that up to make a point, the Father's Spirit is not a distinct person within Him... it is His own Breath of Life, proceeding from Himself... a river of living water!

I just don't buy this Roman Catholic Doctrine. Sorry.

If you can lie to Holy Spirit, that makes Him a person, and this passage differentiates the Spirit from the Father:

Acts 5:3-4
Then Peter said, "Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. 4 The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was also yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God!"

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 16:59:27

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 16:52:26

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 16:39:59

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 15:53:20

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

ps- I do not agree with whoever says the Spirit is Gabriel... I believe the Spirit of God is the very Breath of God Himself.. therefore inseparable and not distinct from the Father or the Son.

Something for you to think about:

During the Old Covenant, God was the main active force in the lives of His people. During the onset of the New Testament, Jesus, the Son was the active force of God in the lives of people. Then after Jesus ascended to the Father, He sent Holy Spirit as He promised, who has been with us ever since. Are there not three manifestations of God? Three distinct persons?

I'll think for awhile about how to answer this.. but let me ask you something: Is the Holy Spirit Begotten God or Unbegotten God?

Why does eternal Spirit need to be begotten?

You could ask then why the eternal Son needs to be begotten....

The Father is the only Unbegotten God. Jesus Christ is the only Begotten of the Father. Where does that leave the Holy Spirit as a third person?

No, the Holy Spirit is not begotten. He is not the Son.

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 17:46:23

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 17:31:25

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 15:17:52

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 14:50:19

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:48:45

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 13:05:02
I don't deny the Spirit of God, I just don't believe the Bible teaches a third person in the Godhead. I agree with the trinity shield (shown above), that the Father is NOT the Son, nor is the Son the Father... I see two distinct persons in intimate relationship throughout all the Scriptures. I see in Genesis that Man (male and female) was made in their image... the two as one, Eve out of Adam as the Son is Begotten of the Father. But I don't see a third person as having a relationship with the two. Neither in the case of God nor in that of Man.

If the Holy Spirit were not a Person, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11); and He could not be lied to (Acts 5:3).

Jesus Himself identifies the Holy Spirit as a Person in John 16:13, "when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth..".

These are all qualities of personhood, and not that of a mere force, power or life/breath.

I wouldn't call the Breath of Life "mere"... the Spirit is God's Wisdom, the Truth and is not distinct from Father or Son. If one lies to the Spirit they lie to the Father Himself, not to another person within the Godhead.

Would you make a distinction between the spirit of a man and the man himself?

That's all very interesting, but you failed to address the passages that clearly identify the Holy Spirit as a Person.

On the contrary, I said that to lie to the Spirit is to lie to the Father, not to a distinct person in the Godhead. When the Spirit speaks it is God's Wisdom and Truth speaking, the Father Himself is speaking.. not a distinct person. I figured you would have gathered where I was going with that. I realize Man is not God  I brought that up to make a point, the Father's Spirit is not a distinct person within Him... it is His own Breath of Life, proceeding from Himself... a river of living water!

I just don't buy this Roman Catholic Doctrine. Sorry.

As I have already explained to you, this is not a RCC doctrine, it is a Christian truth. Obviously you are not interested in seriously considering what scripture says. Your in the right forum, for sure.

I'm very interested in what the Holy Bible says.. just not so much in creeds.

raggthyme7~

QuoteSomething for you to think about:

During the Old Covenant, God was the main active force in the lives of His people. During the onset of the New Testament, Jesus, the Son was the active force of God in the lives of people. Then after Jesus ascended to the Father, He sent Holy Spirit as He promised, who has been with us ever since. Are there not three manifestations of God? Three distinct persons?

Done thinkin'?

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 17:31:25

On the contrary, I said that to lie to the Spirit is to lie to the Father, not to a distinct person in the Godhead. When the Spirit speaks it is God's Wisdom and Truth speaking, the Father Himself is speaking.. not a distinct person. I figured you would have gathered where I was going with that. I realize Man is not God  I brought that up to make a point, the Father's Spirit is not a distinct person within Him... it is His own Breath of Life, proceeding from Himself... a river of living water!

And your words flow like water too!

QuoteI just don't buy this Roman Catholic Doctrine. Sorry.

Me neither, I don't follow people that teach that either. The bible warned us of false doctrines, those people cause divisions and create obstacles for people.

I was raised in the Orthodox church that taught the same thing, my grandmother warned me about the church on her death bed. She didn't want to go and I stopped with her.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 17:54:27

Done thinkin'?

Never done thinkin' ... but I would say that I do not believe in three manifestations of God. I see two distinct persons in Scripture:

1. The Father, the one and only unbegotten God, greater than all, from whom everything comes.

2. His only Begotten Son, a distinct and rational power whom He brought forth from Himself by an act of will, who ministers to the Father in all things. Through Him everything came into existence. He is God, of God.

I see no third person. After His ascension, Jesus sent the promise of the Father.. that power from on high. His own life-giving [Ruach] which quenches the barren soul. The Spirit is Truth, how can anyone make a distinction between the Father and Truth.. or the Son and Truth for that matter. I just cannot fathom it. Yet the Spirit is said to be distinct- not the Father, not the Son...


you asked:
Why does eternal Spirit need to be begotten?

I said:
The Father is the only Unbegotten God. Jesus Christ is the only Begotten of the Father. Where does that leave the Holy Spirit as a third person?
[/quote]

Did you have an answer for me?

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:40:39

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 17:54:27

Done thinkin'?

Never done thinkin' ... but I would say that I do not believe in three manifestations of God. I see two distinct persons in Scripture:

1. The Father, the one and only unbegotten God, greater than all, from whom everything comes.

2. His only Begotten Son, a distinct and rational power whom He brought forth from Himself by an act of will, who ministers to the Father in all things. Through Him everything came into existence. He is God, of God.

I see no third person. After His ascension, Jesus sent the promise of the Father.. that power from on high. His own life-giving [Ruach] which quenches the barren soul. The Spirit is Truth, how can anyone make a distinction between the Father and Truth.. or the Son and Truth for that matter. I just cannot fathom it. Yet the Spirit is said to be distinct- not the Father, not the Son...


you asked:
Why does eternal Spirit need to be begotten?

I said:
The Father is the only Unbegotten God. Jesus Christ is the only Begotten of the Father. Where does that leave the Holy Spirit as a third person?

Did you have an answer for me?
[/quote]

http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: Man_Of_Honor on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:52:37

http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

How does this answer my question? If the Father alone is Unbegotten and the Son alone is Begotten of the Father.. what of the Holy Spirit? Is the third "person" of the trinity Begotten or Unbegotten?

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:57:31

Quote from: Man_Of_Honor on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:52:37

http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

How does this answer my question? If the Father alone is Unbegotten and the Son alone is Begotten of the Father.. what of the Holy Spirit? Is the third "person" of the trinity Begotten or Unbegotten?

What is the purpose of the question?

Quote from: Man_Of_Honor on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 19:04:11

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:57:31

Quote from: Man_Of_Honor on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:52:37

http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

How does this answer my question? If the Father alone is Unbegotten and the Son alone is Begotten of the Father.. what of the Holy Spirit? Is the third "person" of the trinity Begotten or Unbegotten?

What is the purpose of the question?

To find out the answer 

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 10:11:04

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 09:44:51

Quote from: Clarity on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 07:42:47
I know this is unrelated to the discussion at hand, but tonight, unlike any other night I weep at the lack of understanding in this forum.  It reminds of the Egyptians who many were forced to remain in their beds, for the darkness was so great it could be felt. You all are groping and stumbling in the dark and you think you have light.  Your posts are like the screams of those Egyptians tripping over their tables and chairs as they seek to find food or water those three days. Their scream echoes' through the streets as they come to grips with the cold darkness upon their skin.

Your theological ramblings reveal a your lack of sight and no ones desire's to know truth, but in their own strenght with Roman Creeds under arm you post away one after another.

You live in the times of Amos.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: (Amos 8:11)

Those days are upon us.

Well now, that is interesting. You come onto a Christian forum, deny every tenant of the Christian faith, and then weep for our lack of understanding?

The Apostle Paul wept for those like you, not those like us. He wept for those who live as enemies of the cross. Those who claim a superior knowledge of God and in the same breath deny the One who is the Lord God and Savior.

You, who deny the Word would preach to us who are of that very Word, about the Word? We who have the Word, are the deaf, but you who deny the Word claim to be able to hear. Ironic indeed.

And we lack sight? And we have no desire to know truth? We are the ones stumbling in the dark, thinking we have light? If only you had eyes to see, then you would see that what you pile upon others is only a projection of yourself. It is you who are blind.

Weep for yourself, for it is those days that are upon you.

Manna!! 

Your hand clapping and celebrations do not change the reality of your blindness.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 19:15:03

Quote from: Man_Of_Honor on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 19:04:11

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:57:31

Quote from: Man_Of_Honor on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:52:37

http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

How does this answer my question? If the Father alone is Unbegotten and the Son alone is Begotten of the Father.. what of the Holy Spirit? Is the third "person" of the trinity Begotten or Unbegotten?

What is the purpose of the question?

To find out the answer 

http://theologicalclowning.org/pete2.html

The Holy Spirit, therefore, proceeds from the Father and the Son, having the same divine nature, eternally, outside of time. The Father's begetting of the Son and the Holy Spirit's proceeding from the Father and the Son can be attributed as the overflowing love that is the nature of God. Such a love begets the Son, and the equally abundant love each possesses for the other overflows with the procession of the Holy Spirit from a "single spiration."

• The Holy Spirit, therefore, is rightly the "unity of both, or the holiness, or the love."[xi]
  
  What is your response to above? Click on the link if you want to read more.
  
  There have been debates before on whether the Holy Spirit is begotten or unbegotten. Too much back and forth between the two. My opinion, the Holy Spirit is neither as it proceeds both from the Father and Son.

Quote from: Man_Of_Honor on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 19:30:02

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 19:15:03

Quote from: Man_Of_Honor on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 19:04:11

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:57:31

Quote from: Man_Of_Honor on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:52:37

http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

How does this answer my question? If the Father alone is Unbegotten and the Son alone is Begotten of the Father.. what of the Holy Spirit? Is the third "person" of the trinity Begotten or Unbegotten?

What is the purpose of the question?

To find out the answer 

http://theologicalclowning.org/pete2.html

The Holy Spirit, therefore, proceeds from the Father and the Son, having the same divine nature, eternally, outside of time. The Father's begetting of the Son and the Holy Spirit's proceeding from the Father and the Son can be attributed as the overflowing love that is the nature of God. Such a love begets the Son, and the equally abundant love each possesses for the other overflows with the procession of the Holy Spirit from a "single spiration."

• The Holy Spirit, therefore, is rightly the "unity of both, or the holiness, or the love."[xi]
  
  What is your response to above? Click on the link if you want to read more.
  
  There have been debates before on whether the Holy Spirit is begotten or unbegotten. Too much back and forth between the two. My opinion, the Holy Spirit is neither as it proceeds both from the Father and Son.
  

Funny, I was just reading this before you posted it here. I agree that the Holy Spirit is the Unity between the two (Father and Son), the bond of perfection, the Wisdom, the Truth, the Holiness... proceeding as a river. But nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other. Not once does it mention the love the Spirit has for the Son, or for the Father or the Father for the Spirit etc. We only see this beautiful union between the Father and His Son. And since Christ came we now see this pictured: the unity between Father, Son and those who have received the life-giving flow...

The problem here stems from the word begotten, which should be translated as "one and only".  Begotten is for some reason translated AS "monogenes" in the Greek, which translates to mono=one or unique, genes-kind. Begotten is really monogennao, or mono=one or unique and gennao=begotten. Jesus is God's unique Son of God, or one of a kind Son of God as opposed to the many sons of God through faith in Jesus. In John 20:28, Thomas referred to Jesus as HIS Lord and HIS God. Titus 2:13 refers to Jesus as the great God and our Savior.

In Christ,
Grapesicle

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:40:39

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 17:54:27

Done thinkin'?

Never done thinkin' ... but I would say that I do not believe in three manifestations of God. I see two distinct persons in Scripture:

1. The Father, the one and only unbegotten God, greater than all, from whom everything comes.

2. His only Begotten Son, a distinct and rational power whom He brought forth from Himself by an act of will, who ministers to the Father in all things. Through Him everything came into existence. He is God, of God.

I see no third person. After His ascension, Jesus sent the promise of the Father.. that power from on high. His own life-giving [Ruach] which quenches the barren soul. The Spirit is Truth, how can anyone make a distinction between the Father and Truth.. or the Son and Truth for that matter. I just cannot fathom it. Yet the Spirit is said to be distinct- not the Father, not the Son...


you asked:
Why does eternal Spirit need to be begotten?

I said:
The Father is the only Unbegotten God. Jesus Christ is the only Begotten of the Father. Where does that leave the Holy Spirit as a third person?

QuoteDid you have an answer for me?

I am sorry about your delusion, then, raggthyme. It appears you have been influenced by people who are lacking in the understanding of God and who He is. the spirit is the Spirit of Christ, able to be omnipresent to do the works of Christ in us and through us.

He is a Person, and is referred to in the third person singular.

THE HOLY SPIRIT

Attributes: Who Is He

He possesses omniscience (1 Cor. 2:11,12)
He possess omnipresence (Ps. 139:7)
He possesses omnipotence (Job 33:4)

He is Truth (1 John 5:6)

He gives life (Luke 11:13)

He possesses creative wisdom (Is. 40:13)
He possesses all the attributes of deity: He is God (Acts 5:3,4)

Record: What He Has Done

In the Old Testament:

He was active at creation (Gen. 1:2)
He was the bestower of supernatural giftedness (Gen. 31:38)
He was the giver of creativity (Ex. 31:2-5)
He was the source of power (Judges. 3:9, 10)
He inspired prophecy (1 Sam. 19:20, 23)
He was the mediator of God's message (Mic. 3:8)

In the New Testament:

He was part of the Incarnation (Luke 1:35)
He declared the truth about Christ (John 16:13,14)
He endowed believers with power for witnessing (Acts 1:8)
He poured out God's love (Rom. 5:5)
He interceded (Rom. 8:26)

He was the inspiration for the writing of the Holy Scripture (2 Tim.3:16, 2 Pet. 1:21)
He distributed giftedness for ministry (1 Cor.12:4-11)
He empowered believers with characteristics for godly living (Gal. 5:22, 23)
He Strengthened believers within (Eph. 3:16)

Work: What He Will Do

He will guide the believer (Acts 8:29 ; Rom. 8:14)
He will give assurance of salvation (Rom. 8:14-17)
He will be the believer's teacher (1 John 2:27)
He will intercede (Rom. 8:26)
He will comfort (John 14:16)
He will sanctify (2 Thess. 2:13)
He will accomplish regeneration (John 3:6)
He will make you aware of sin (John 16:8)
He will convince you of the truth of the gospel (John 16:8, 13, 14)
He will empower you to witness (Acts 1:8;4:31)
He will destroy the power of sin in your life (Rom. 8:2-6)
He will lead and even control your life (Rom. 8:14;Gal. 5:16, 25)
He will distribute gifts to be used in the kingdom (1 Cor. 12:14-11

The Holy Spirit was promised as a gift to believers. Part of His ministry is to seal believers at the moment they place saving faith in Christ. The term, 'seal' includes certain truths: He is a provision of security, a mark of ownership, and a sign of approval.

Indeed, the Holy Spirit's presence in believers' lives is the final evidence, both to themselves and to others, of the truth of what each has believed.

Further, He is the down payment, providing both a foretaste of the believer's spiritual inheritance and a legal claim to the fullness of that inheritance in the future.

Quote from: Clarity on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 19:23:43

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 10:11:04

Quote from: ChristNU on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 09:44:51

Quote from: Clarity on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 07:42:47
I know this is unrelated to the discussion at hand, but tonight, unlike any other night I weep at the lack of understanding in this forum.  It reminds of the Egyptians who many were forced to remain in their beds, for the darkness was so great it could be felt. You all are groping and stumbling in the dark and you think you have light.  Your posts are like the screams of those Egyptians tripping over their tables and chairs as they seek to find food or water those three days. Their scream echoes' through the streets as they come to grips with the cold darkness upon their skin.

Your theological ramblings reveal a your lack of sight and no ones desire's to know truth, but in their own strenght with Roman Creeds under arm you post away one after another.

You live in the times of Amos.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: (Amos 8:11)

Those days are upon us.

Well now, that is interesting. You come onto a Christian forum, deny every tenant of the Christian faith, and then weep for our lack of understanding?

The Apostle Paul wept for those like you, not those like us. He wept for those who live as enemies of the cross. Those who claim a superior knowledge of God and in the same breath deny the One who is the Lord God and Savior.

You, who deny the Word would preach to us who are of that very Word, about the Word? We who have the Word, are the deaf, but you who deny the Word claim to be able to hear. Ironic indeed.

And we lack sight? And we have no desire to know truth? We are the ones stumbling in the dark, thinking we have light? If only you had eyes to see, then you would see that what you pile upon others is only a projection of yourself. It is you who are blind.

Weep for yourself, for it is those days that are upon you.

Manna!! 

Your hand clapping and celebrations do not change the reality of your blindness.

Actually, what is there is a celebration of spiritual insight.

Lively Stone,

I'm not fooled by the proceeding "He" on all the verses you quoted above. None of them say the Spirit is a person, distinct from the Father and Son.


Again, nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other. Not once does it mention the love the Spirit has for the Son, or for the Father or the Father for the Spirit etc.

We only see this beautiful relationship between the Father and His Son. The Spirit is the Truth which proceeds from both of them. There is no distinct personhood of the Holy Spirit taught in the Bible, so I will not adhere to this dogma. The Father is the ONLY true God... Jesus said it! And the Son is God Begotten of Him. If you have the Son, you have the Father also... no need for the creed.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 21:23:02
Lively Stone,

I'm not fooled by the proceeding "He" on all the verses you quoted above. None of them say the Spirit is a person, distinct from the Father and Son.


Again, nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other. Not once does it mention the love the Spirit has for the Son, or for the Father or the Father for the Spirit etc.

We only see this beautiful relationship between the Father and His Son. The Spirit is the Truth which proceeds from both of them. There is no distinct personhood of the Holy Spirit taught in the Bible, so I will not adhere to this dogma. The Father is the ONLY true God... Jesus said it! And the Son is God Begotten of Him. If you have the Son, you have the Father also... no need for the creed.

Last time I looked, a 'He' or a 'Him' is in reference to a person. You cannot even know God without Him. So, you need to watch what you argue about. I really don't think that a Christian who wants all of what Jesus died to give Him will ever experience the fullness of what Holy Spirit brings him unless he comes to an understanding and submission to Holy Spirit. Those who reject who He is can experience salvation, but Holy Spirit will have to convince the person of who He is. Until then a person who doubts Him is stuck in a rut of being saved, but not fully alive and walking in his gifting, which can only be bestowed by Holy Spirit's baptism. There is a deeper life in Christ and you will miss it because of your denials.

Quote from: howard on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 21:58:19

Quote from: HRoberson on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 21:35:26
The Holy Spirit as God is a deduction.


The Trinity is a concept based on deduction.

Where is this written ?

^
^
^
^ Right up there.

Again, nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other. Not once does it mention the love the Spirit has for the Son, or for the Father or the Father for the Spirit etc.

a. true
b. false

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 23:52:48

Again, nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other.

a. true
b. false

true...but consider how many will not be saved  For the One true will not be worshipped as a three headed monster.

Quote from: Clarity on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 23:55:26

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 23:52:48

Again, nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other.

a. true
b. false

true...but consider how many will not be saved  For the One true will not be worshipped as a three headed monster.

Calling God a three-headed monster is heinous speech, and only reveals ignorance and the utter lack of relationship with God. God seeks out those He wants for Himself, Jesus saves them and Holy Spirit seals them. Every member of the Trinity is self aware and speaks of His own self. That you miss that detail shows a lack of scriptural knowledge and understanding.

You are completely out of touch with Christianity.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 00:57:36
Every member of the Trinity is self aware and speaks of His own self. That you miss that detail shows a lack of scriptural knowledge and understanding.

Speaks of His own self?

Lively Stone,

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 23:52:48

Again, nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other. Not once does it mention the love the Spirit has for the Son, or for the Father or the Father for the Spirit etc.

a. true
b. false

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 00:57:36
You are completely out of touch with Christianity.

Thank you Lively.

The word 'person' is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word 'person' is appropriate.  A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say 'you,' 'yours,' 'me,' 'mine,' etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?  Yes there are.

They are each called God:
Father: Phil. 1:2
Son: John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9
Holy Spirit: Acts 5:3-4

Each has a will:
Father: Luke 22:42
Son: Luke 22:42
Holy Spirit:1 Cor. 12:11

Each is all-knowing:
Father: 1 John 3:20
Son: John 16:30; 21:17
Holy Spirit: 1 Cor. 2:10-11

Each has a will:
Father: Luke 22:42
Son: Luke 22:42
Holy Spirit: 1 Cor. 12:11

Each speaks:
Father: Matt. 3:17
Son: Luke 5:20
Holy Spirit: Acts 8:29; 13:2

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 01:51:01

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.?  Yes there are.

That wasn't exactly the question... a simple true or false would suffice. Oh well. I do appreciate the time you took to answer your own question. 

Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

OK now we have 3

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )
2. then we go through the son                                                  ( he becomes the door)
3. to the father.

3 working together as one

Quote from: bemark on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 04:08:46
Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

OK now we have 3

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )
2. then we go through the son                                                  ( he becomes the door)
3. to the father.

3 working together as one

Good post bemark. Nicely put.

Quote from: bemark on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 04:08:46
Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

OK now we have 3

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )
2. then we go through the son                                                  ( he becomes the door)
3. to the father.

3 working together as one

This is the order in which it happened to me. When I was being led by the spirit, they were by far my ideas, in fact I had no idea what was going to happen next. I remember Memyself once mention a movie and seeing herself as a character in the movie which opened her eyes to an aspect of herself, this is how the spirit led me. Except this happened everywhere I looked. I always told myself I will never get married but the spirit also led me to my husband and I married him the first week we met. Everyone thought I was crazy because of this, I immediately stopped being a prostitute, my life changed completely. The spirit took me out of the world, I didn't understand why this was happening but I let it happen and I didn't fight against it. I knew it was right because of the positive changes in my life, I was being re-created. In the meantime I was one of those Atheist talking about things to do with the bible other than read it, I still hadn't read the bible. The spirit doesn't stop leading us even when we reject Jesus and God. I was being washed and renewed total cleansing without anything from me!

I would love to hear other peoples testimony's on how the spirit led them and changed their lives.

I personally wouldn't continue in this debate if the mentality of the person whom you're trying to help see the truth is, "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up!". My beliefs do not come from the Nicene Creed, the RCC, or even any doctrine or man of denomination because the bible says:

Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, (Jeremiah 17:5a)

Even if you can show CLEARLY that the Holy Spirit is God, and is a distinct person from the Father and the Son; those who have their mind made up will more than likely not repent from their false beliefs. A deceived person doesn't know that they're deceived, that's the thing about deception.

I go by what the BIBLE says, because the bible is the ULTIMATE authority when it comes to doctrine. So is the Holy Spirit God?

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3,4)

Is the Holy Spirit a distinct person from the Father and the Son?

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (John14:16)

Another Comforter = "allos parakletos" or ANOTHER of the same kind.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)

Jesus said,  HE (ANOTHER PERSON) will reprove the world of sin, not Him (Jesus).

What have we learned?

• The Holy Spirit is God
  
• The Holy Spirit is a distinct person who is NOT the Father or the Son
  
• The Holy Spirit is a PERSON NOT Jesus or the Father

The bible says that God is LOVE (1 John 4:8). If the Holy Spirit IS God, then He as God is the HIGHEST expression of love. And since God is unchangeable and eternal, we know that the Holy Spirit LOVED both the Father and the Son from eternity past. I now turn this over to prayer because only God Himself can open the eyes of the blind now.

In Christ,
Grapesicle

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 00:57:36

Quote from: Clarity on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 23:55:26

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 23:52:48

Again, nowhere does the Bible even picture three persons in eternal, intimate relationship with each other.

a. true
b. false

true...but consider how many will not be saved  For the One true will not be worshipped as a three headed monster.

Calling God a three-headed monster is heinous speech, and only reveals ignorance and the utter lack of relationship with God. God seeks out those He wants for Himself, Jesus saves them and Holy Spirit seals them. Every member of the Trinity is self aware and speaks of His own self. That you miss that detail shows a lack of scriptural knowledge and understanding.

You are completely out of touch with Christianity.

God seeks out those He wants for Himself, Jesus saves them and Holy Spirit seals them

AMEN!

How this is being argued against is beyond me...its all right in God's word.

Quote from: Grapesicle on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 08:39:58
I personally wouldn't continue in this debate if the mentality of the person whom you're trying to help see the truth is, "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up!". My beliefs do not come from the Nicene Creed, the RCC, or even any doctrine or man of denomination because the bible says:

Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, (Jeremiah 17:5a)

Even if you can show CLEARLY that the Holy Spirit is God, and is a distinct person from the Father and the Son; those who have their mind made up will more than likely not repent from their false beliefs. A deceived person doesn't know that they're deceived, that's the thing about deception.

I go by what the BIBLE says, because the bible is the ULTIMATE authority when it comes to doctrine. So is the Holy Spirit God?

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3,4)

Is the Holy Spirit a distinct person from the Father and the Son?

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (John14:16)

Another Comforter = "allos parakletos" or ANOTHER of the same kind.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)

Jesus said,  HE (ANOTHER PERSON) will reprove the world of sin, not Him (Jesus).

What have we learned?

• The Holy Spirit is God
  
• The Holy Spirit is a distinct person who is NOT the Father or the Son
  
• The Holy Spirit is a PERSON NOT Jesus or the Father

The bible says that God is LOVE (1 John 4:8). If the Holy Spirit IS God, then He as God is the HIGHEST expression of love. And since God is unchangeable and eternal, we know that the Holy Spirit LOVED both the Father and the Son from eternity past. I now turn this over to prayer because only God Himself can open the eyes of the blind now.

In Christ,
Grapesicle

Very well said, and all very true.