Christian Forums

Quote from: HRoberson on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:12:55
Of course the essential oneness of God in the sense of Trinity is a presupposition of the folks that won the council debate. It's a lot like saying you lost because you didn't agree with us.

Presupposition indeed.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:22:11

Quote from: ChristNU on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:01:33

Okay, I gotcha now. Just so you know, what you believe is called "subordinationism"...the belief in the ontological superiority or inferiority of divine persons. The reason it has been rejected by Christianity is because, just as you have shown, you end up with demi-gods and second class deities; which destroys the essential oneness of God.

subordinationism
  the theological tenet of progressively declining essence within the Trinity. —     subordinationist, n.

  a doctrine in theology: the second and third persons of the Trinity are subordinate   (as in order or essence) to the first person and the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Son.

Nope, not that either. Subordinationists still believe in a trinity.

Obviously it would be non-Trinitarian subordinationism. Fits you like a glove.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:33:59

Quote from: HRoberson on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:12:55
Of course the essential oneness of God in the sense of Trinity is a presupposition of the folks that won the council debate. It's a lot like saying you lost because you didn't agree with us.

Presupposition indeed.

I didn't say I didn't agree with the Trinity concept, just that it is a concept that must be sewn together by appealing to a variety of Scripture. In relationship to this latest post, that the declaring of another concept as heresy is a result of political maneuvering and vote rather than any guarantee of "rightness." It was in fact, a presupposition of those who held it at the beginning of any deliberations.

Quote from: ChristNU on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:53:53

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:22:11

Quote from: ChristNU on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:01:33

Okay, I gotcha now. Just so you know, what you believe is called "subordinationism"...the belief in the ontological superiority or inferiority of divine persons. The reason it has been rejected by Christianity is because, just as you have shown, you end up with demi-gods and second class deities; which destroys the essential oneness of God.

subordinationism
  the theological tenet of progressively declining essence within the Trinity. —     subordinationist, n.

  a doctrine in theology: the second and third persons of the Trinity are subordinate   (as in order or essence) to the first person and the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Son.

Nope, not that either. Subordinationists still believe in a trinity.

Obviously it would be non-Trinitarian subordinationism. Fits you like a glove.

that's an oxymoron. Defies the very definition of Subordinationism.

Subordinationism is called a heresy concerning the trinity. You can't have the one without the other.

Nah, I just believe Jesus (John 6:57, 14:28, 17:3 etc)... I'd still like to know how trinitarians wiggle around 17:3. 

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:27:39

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 19:16:14
Nothing confusing about it.

That's funny, Lively! 

Why is that funny? I believe what God presents in His word, and He presents Himself as three persons in one---always has and always will. It is your lack of understanding that hides behind the guffaws.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 20:17:51

Why is that funny?

You said "nothing confusing about it"

God is one, but God is three... but God is one... yes, perfectly understandable. That's why there's been no debate about it over the centuries... 

I think it's much more honest to call it a "mystery" like so many do.. one that "we just can't wrap our heads around." You choose to elevate yourself above any Christian who's ever had a hard time getting it.

Look online, you'll see many, many questions about the trinity.. from trinitarians of all people. Guess they need a lesson from you, Lively. 

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 21:05:08

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 20:17:51

Why is that funny?

You said "nothing confusing about it"

God is one, but God is three... but God is one... yes, perfectly understandable. That's why there's been no debate about it over the centuries... 

I think it's much more honest to call it a "mystery" like so many do.. one that "we just can't wrap our heads around." You choose to elevate yourself above any Christian who's ever had a hard time getting it.

Look online, you'll see many, many questions about the trinity.. from trinitarians of all people. Guess they need a lesson from you, Lively. 

Debating doesn't mean that both sides are confused. Only one. I am aware that it is considered a mystery, and it is---but we who are Christ's have the keys the mysteries of God.

Luke 8:10
And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.'

1 Corinthians 4:1
Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

Quote from: bemark on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 04:08:46
Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??...

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )......

John 6:44

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 22:39:56

I am aware that it is considered a mystery, and it is---but we who are Christ's have the keys the mysteries of God.

Luke 8:10
And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.'

1 Corinthians 4:1
Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2 verses taken completely out of context.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 23:00:27

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 22:39:56

I am aware that it is considered a mystery, and it is---but we who are Christ's have the keys the mysteries of God.

Luke 8:10
And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.'

1 Corinthians 4:1
Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2 verses taken completely out of context.

Your beliefs are out of context. I have no concerns on that score.

Quote from: bemark on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 04:08:46
Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

OK now we have 3

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )
2. then we go through the son                                                  ( he becomes the door)
3. to the father.

3 working together as one

Hi I put the full one in

Yes John 6:44 is correct and that is why The Holy Spirit is used and not the father so we then can go to Jesus and then and only then we can come to the father.
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Quote from: bemark on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 23:57:09

Quote from: bemark on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 04:08:46
Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

OK now we have 3

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )
2. then we go through the son                                                  ( he becomes the door)
3. to the father.

3 working together as one

Hi I put the full one in

Yes John 6:44 is correct and that is why The Holy Spirit is used and not the father so we then can go to Jesus and then and only then we can come to the father.
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him............

You say the Holy Spirit is used and NOT the Father... Jesus says the Father is the one who draws. I will believe Jesus :)

The Father works by His Spirit to draw men to Himself. That is what Holy Spirit does. It's His job!

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 00:41:19
The Father works by His Spirit to draw men to Himself. That is what Holy Spirit does. It's His job!

Exactly. Bemark says it is not the Father who draws, Jesus says it is the Father who draws. But truly it is the Father working through His Spirit; the Truth which proceeds from the Father, drawing men to Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:6)

The Truth brings conviction, the Word that goes out from His mouth does not return void. But in the end it is the Father who draws. The Truth is the the means by which He does this.

raggthyme7
Think about what you are saying.  It is much more confusing than any view of God I have ever seen presented.  You say there is only one true God but He made Jesus.  That makes Jesus a created being not everlasting to everlasting.  It also makes Jesus NOT the true God.  So how can a false God be our savior and what or who do you think the Holy Spirit is?  You can't have it both ways say that there is only one God but He made some more Gods. That smacks of Greek mythology or WJ theology.  I think you are simply confused about what you believe.   

I'm going to ask again since my question still hasn't been answered.

If 3 are 1 and 1 are 3, how come I can blaspheme God and Jesus and be forgiven but not the holy spirit?

Bitter
Here is what I understand.  God first presented Himself and was rejected.  Christ was also rejected and gave His life for our sins.  Then the Holy spirit was sent to perfect the word and convict men of their lost state.  He is the last life line.  If we reject Him there are no more life lines to be offered.  I presented that in a form that a traditional trinity believer could understand even though I an not a traditional trinatarian.  Like Barton Stone I hold to the personification view of God.  God is not going to present Himself in another form so if we reject His HS we have no hope.   

Thanks Johnb, that makes sense, in fact you put it in way to understand why the HS is required. I just don't understand how all 3 are 1 if I can't reject one of them without forgiveness. Why not say I can reject 2 out of 3 of any of them since they are equal in the trinity and still be forgiven? Maybe my question isn't clear, it's about as hard to ask as the trinity is to understand for some!

I'm not advocating that it's ok to reject any 2 out of the 3, it's just a question regarding the equality in the trinity.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 00:28:00

Quote from: bemark on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 23:57:09

Quote from: bemark on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 04:08:46
Do we need 2 or 3?


Lets look at this

Lets take 2 first

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

So we know here that Jesus(2) is the only way to the father(1) because we cant even have relationship with the father(1) except through the son(2).

so if there is only 2,  then it must be the father that draws us..... but how can we start to have relationship with the Father before going through the son first??

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

OK now we have 3

1.The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin first and draws us to Christ ( before we can go to the father )
2. then we go through the son                                                  ( he becomes the door)
3. to the father.

3 working together as one

Hi I put the full one in

Yes John 6:44 is correct and that is why The Holy Spirit is used and not the father so we then can go to Jesus and then and only then we can come to the father.
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him............

You say the Holy Spirit is used and NOT the Father... Jesus says the Father is the one who draws. I will believe Jesus :)

The Holy Spirit is obedient or one with the father like Jesus is  because there is one purpose and that is to bring us to them


Outside of the Blood can we see or have relationship with God almighty?

No we cant so in his mercy he releases his holy spirit to draw us to repentance to Jesus (Who came from him) and now and only now can we start to get to know God because we are cleansed by the blood.

Bitter
since this is the non traditional board I will present my non traditional view of God.  I believe there is but one God.  He is all knowing all powerful and all present or able to be in all places at the same time.  If He can be in all places at the same time.  Therefore it is no problem for Him to present Himself in the form of the man Jesus and later as the Holy Spirit.  IMO Jesus (God) used the terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit to help humans relate and understand how He was working.  In short I see one God who has presented Himself to man in 3 personifications,  I also do not see this as a salvation issue except when folks try to make Jesus a created God who is not eternal.

Quote from: Johnb on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 10:52:58
Bitter
Here is what I understand.  God first presented Himself and was rejected.  Christ was also rejected and gave His life for our sins.  Then the Holy spirit was sent to perfect the word and convict men of their lost state.  He is the last life line.  If we reject Him there are no more life lines to be offered.  I presented that in a form that a traditional trinity believer could understand even though I an not a traditional trinatarian.  Like Barton Stone I hold to the personification view of God.  God is not going to present Himself in another form so if we reject His HS we have no hope.

where is this written?

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 01:14:00

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 00:41:19
The Father works by His Spirit to draw men to Himself. That is what Holy Spirit does. It's His job!

Exactly. Bemark says it is not the Father who draws, Jesus says it is the Father who draws. But truly it is the Father working through His Spirit; the Truth which proceeds from the Father, drawing men to Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:6)

The Truth brings conviction, the Word that goes out from His mouth does not return void. But in the end it is the Father who draws. The Truth is the the means by which He does this.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

these is more than one God. the question is how many.

we know there is a God who is the Father
we know there is a God who is the Son

we have the word us and we have the word our in the first chapter of Genesis in the creation.
we cannot deny this.

there is only two in the Godhead

Solomon told us

Proverbs 30:3-5 (King James Version)

3I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.

4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

what is his name?
what is his Son's name?

Isaiah said

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

we have a God speaking who says that

"I  dwell"  1  

"with him"  2

Notice the HS is not mentioned

someone made a comment about the HS and how we receive him

lets read what the bible says how man receive the HS

in order to receive or have the HS comforter or spirit of truth whatever you want to call him you must keep the commandments

   11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

the commandments of God must be kept according to Jesus before anyone can receive the HS.

we read it above!!   

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 09:14:49
I'm going to ask again since my question still hasn't been answered.

If 3 are 1 and 1 are 3, how come I can blaspheme God and Jesus and be forgiven but not the holy spirit?

It's kind of hard to be forgiven for blaspheming Holy Spirit when it is Holy Spirit's job to bring you to repentance. You wouldn't exactly be listening to Him, and on top of that you would have grieved Him and driven Him away.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 09:14:49
I'm going to ask again since my question still hasn't been answered.

If 3 are 1 and 1 are 3, how come I can blaspheme God and Jesus and be forgiven but not the holy spirit?

you are not!!

blaspheming the word of God has nothing to do with the HS, Comforter or spirit of truth

Blaspheming the word of God is this

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [/color]
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

we have people who know God, they were showed the truth, yet the chose to teach in in unrighteousness

yes the word of God is spirit and it is holy

lets read because we have millions of christians who don't understand that there are more than one HS is the bible 

   John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.



  ask yourself this do you live by every spirit/word that comes from Jesus mouth?

he said so

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

lets read what Jesus said is the job of the comforter, the spirit of truth, the HS

John 16
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The comforter cannot speak nothing of himself, NOTHING!

is this not odd if he is GOD the HS?

consider what you read

 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


maybe someone can explain why Jesus who is God and the HS who some say is God cannot be on the earth at the same time?

Quote from: Johnb on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 07:11:49
raggthyme7
Think about what you are saying.  It is much more confusing than any view of God I have ever seen presented.  You say there is only one true God but He made Jesus.  That makes Jesus a created being not everlasting to everlasting.  It also makes Jesus NOT the true God.  So how can a false God be our savior and what or who do you think the Holy Spirit is?  You can't have it both ways say that there is only one God but He made some more Gods. That smacks of Greek mythology or WJ theology.  I think you are simply confused about what you believe.

Hi Johnb,

Not really, it seems rather simple to me. I'll go over it again for those who might be (just now) tuning in.

I believe:

The Father is the only true God. There is no other Unbegotten. The Father is not three persons in one.

The Father has a Son. (sons are not created, they are begotten of their father's substance.) He's shared in His Father's glory from before the world was. David himself understood there are two Lords. One ministers to the other's will in all things.

The Spirit is truth (1 John 5) the spring of life which proceeds from both the Father and His Son... not a third and distinct person with which the Father and His Son have an intimate relationship.

I see you are a Unitarian? At least we can agree on the trinity. We both believe God is one (singular) do we not? The difference is that you say He manifests Himself as Father, then again as Son, and as Spirit. Please correct me about your views if I'm wrong.

If that's the case, He is having intimate relationship with Himself, not with another rational being.

I differ there, my friend. There is a real relationship between two distinct persons: the one God, and His Son who is begotten of Him.

One true God, one Son of the true God, one Spirit of the true God.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 13:36:57

Quote from: Johnb on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 07:11:49
raggthyme7
Think about what you are saying.  It is much more confusing than any view of God I have ever seen presented.  You say there is only one true God but He made Jesus.  That makes Jesus a created being not everlasting to everlasting.  It also makes Jesus NOT the true God.  So how can a false God be our savior and what or who do you think the Holy Spirit is?  You can't have it both ways say that there is only one God but He made some more Gods. That smacks of Greek mythology or WJ theology.  I think you are simply confused about what you believe.

Hi Johnb,

Not really, it seems rather simple to me. I'll go over it again for those who might be (just now) tuning in.

I believe:

The Father is the only true God. There is no other Unbegotten. The Father is not three persons in one.

The Father has a Son. (Sons are not created, they are begotten of their father's substance.) He's shared in His Father's glory from before the world was. David himself understood there are two Lords. One ministers to the other's will in all things.

The Spirit is Truth (1 John 5) and proceeds from both the Father and His Son... not a third and distinct person with which the Father and His Son have an intimate relationship.

I see you are a Unitarian? At least we can agree on the trinity. We both believe God is one (singular) do we not? The difference is that you say he manifests himself as Father, then again as Son, and as Spirit. Please correct me about your views if I'm wrong.

If that's the case, He is having intimate relationship with Himself, not with another rational being.

I differ there, my friend. There is a real relationship between two distinct persons: the one God, and His Son who is begotten of Him.

One true God, one Son of the true God, one Spirit of the true God.

is Jesus God?

the Son Jesus has a God

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

surely he was not calling himself

man has a God who becamse Jesus the Son of God

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

thomas was there he should know

Jesus is God
Jesus Father is God

care to add anymore?

take a look at the conversation going on here for the Unitarians and Trinitarians please chime in

Psalm 55
1Give ear to my prayer, O God; and hide not thyself from my supplication.

2Attend unto me, and hear me: I mourn in my complaint, and make a noise;

11Wickedness is in the midst thereof: deceit and guile depart not from her streets.

12For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:

13But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
14We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.

Quote from: howard on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 13:26:46

lets read because we have millions of christians who don't understand that there are more than one HS is the bible 

Thanks because I was wondering this also. The spirit of truth lives in us, us is multiple. Is the spirit of truth the same as the HS? This verse makes the spirit of truth null to the world, therefore there wouldn't be a worldwide teaching of the trinity because that would contradict the spirit of truth making him acceptable.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 13:55:32

Quote from: howard on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 13:26:46

lets read because we have millions of christians who don't understand that there are more than one HS is the bible 

Thanks because I was wondering this also. The spirit of truth lives in us, us is multiple. Is the spirit of truth the same as the HS? This verse makes the spirit of truth null to the world, therefore there wouldn't be a worldwide teaching of the trinity because that would contradict the spirit of truth making him acceptable.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Hi Sis

if we can get the people to just think about what is written

if God the HS is in us would we sin?
if God HS is in us would we need to read and quote the bible?
we all would be on the same page whatever Christians denomination we belong to
God the HS would be in all of us and we would be saying the same same words to each other.

that is why I put the job function of the HS