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There is always that fear that history repeats itself, and more often than not it does.  Also, we have to take in notice the generalization of the specific genders and the individuals of that gender.  Perhaps some females have forgiven men for our past mistakes.  Perhaps some have not.  However, we cannot generalize that all women have not forgiven men of their mistakes. 

Take this for example.  I lie to you.  You forgive me.  Then, you witness me lying to another person.  And then another.  And maybe one more.  Then I say something to you that you aren't sure if I'm lying or not.  Would you believe me?  Or think I'm lying again?  Most likely you would believe I'm lying again.  And you would have good reason to believe so.  But what if I wasn't?  What if I was telling the truth?  We often make generalizations with people and groups, which is judgmental, which God warns us not to do. 

You're absolutely right about the forgiveness and forgetting the past part.  I COMPLETELY agree with you about that!  It IS ridiculous for people to hold grudges.  I'm actually in a situation with one of my friends who,  in my opinion, is acting completely ridiculous.  Along with that, I have a lot of people holding grudges against me from some stupid argument(s) we had in high school.  I wish some people would grow up.  But do you know why they hold a grudge against me?  Cause they fear that I haven't changed and history will repeat itself.  They have pre-determined judgments towards me.  I sit in the same congregation every Sunday morning with these people. 

We'e forgetting one little detail though.  The highest commandment, according to Jesus, is to "love the Lord Your God with all your  heart, soul, and mind."  But the second is to "love your neighbor as yourself."  You see, even if these people still have judgments against us and fear the past will repeat itself, we have to LOVE them.  No excuses.  I do this every time I see one of the people who judge me and hold pointless grudges against me.  We have to love them like Jesus. 

P.S. My friend is African American and most of the people who hold grudges and have judgments against me are females.

Quote from: Cally on Thu May 24, 2012 - 22:24:52

Quote from: Jaime on Wed May 23, 2012 - 10:24:30
I have heard our preacher use such as an ice breaker of sorts. It has nothing to do with pitting men against women. It's context. If Shoebat meant it as anything but humor, then yes. Most times when our preacher does it, it is self deprecating humor. The men never rise up and dispute a clear joke. THAT would be shallow and nonsensical. Has a preacher said things serious about the subject? Look at the movie review section on the movie Courageous. The preacher DingDong is dead serious in his pitting men against women. That is clearly wrong. No humor intended with his remarks. I reject his entire thesis on the thread about a religious movie with a strong Christian message is somehow emasculating to men.

He wants to pit men against women? Or perhaps, warn men that the movie is an attempt to put on shackles of manipulation on men and reduce their value to nothing?

Yes, I still have to see that movie . . . something I won't pay a cent to do, but I'm really inclined to believe Dingdong after watching Fireproof.

That's unfortunate for you, in my opinion, especially as a young person. These movies are made by a church group to portray a sermon in story form. The power of unconditional love is the theme of Fireproof. It could have easily been portrayed with the wife's and husband's parts reversed and been just as powerful. I assume since Cameron was the professional actor capable of more accurately portraying the gamut of emotions his part was chosen as it was. Nothing at all speaking to how men should become emasculated in order to have a successful relationship with a woman. If Kirk Cameron's character had told his wife to jump in the lake and rush to the divorce proceedings, it would have ended like 50% or more of the marriages in the country. No life lesson in that. Hollywood could have certainly taken it and focused on the pain and misery of all that, but the LESSON was what was important for the church group who produced the film.

Again, I pray that you see this for YOUR sake, not mine. I've been very happily married 39 years. And it IS very much a give and take proposition requiring extraordinary mustering of Christ-like behavior including as much as humanly possible, unconditional love. We as men are to love our wives as Christ loved the church. (Eph 5:25) That sometimes takes "tricking ourselves" as in the lovedare to push beyond how we want to react in the flesh. It's akinned to Jesus' admonition to turn the other cheek type thing. It doesn't come naturally. The lovedare as portrayed in the movie is not a husband emasculating himself before his wife, but portraying Christ-like love, even when the flesh doesn't want to. An abhorrent thing for you I guess, but absolutely essential for both husbands and wives.  

Quote from: wolflet7 on Fri May 25, 2012 - 10:21:01
There is always that fear that history repeats itself, and more often than not it does.  Also, we have to take in notice the generalization of the specific genders and the individuals of that gender.  Perhaps some females have forgiven men for our past mistakes.  Perhaps some have not.  However, we cannot generalize that all women have not forgiven men of their mistakes. 

Take this for example.  I lie to you.  You forgive me.  Then, you witness me lying to another person.  And then another.  And maybe one more.  Then I say something to you that you aren't sure if I'm lying or not.  Would you believe me?  Or think I'm lying again?  Most likely you would believe I'm lying again.  And you would have good reason to believe so.  But what if I wasn't?  What if I was telling the truth?  We often make generalizations with people and groups, which is judgmental, which God warns us not to do. 

You're absolutely right about the forgiveness and forgetting the past part.  I COMPLETELY agree with you about that!  It IS ridiculous for people to hold grudges.  I'm actually in a situation with one of my friends who,  in my opinion, is acting completely ridiculous.  Along with that, I have a lot of people holding grudges against me from some stupid argument(s) we had in high school.  I wish some people would grow up.  But do you know why they hold a grudge against me?  Cause they fear that I haven't changed and history will repeat itself.  They have pre-determined judgments towards me.  I sit in the same congregation every Sunday morning with these people. 

We'e forgetting one little detail though.  The highest commandment, according to Jesus, is to "love the Lord Your God with all your  heart, soul, and mind."  But the second is to "love your neighbor as yourself."  You see, even if these people still have judgments against us and fear the past will repeat itself, we have to LOVE them.  No excuses.  I do this every time I see one of the people who judge me and hold pointless grudges against me.  We have to love them like Jesus. 

P.S. My friend is African American and most of the people who hold grudges and have judgments against me are females.

What is there to fear? Just go back a few decades and men were more of a gentlemen to women in the olden days. Giving women the right to vote has led to abortion on demand. Abortion is the biggest genocide in history, all because we gave into the whims of the female feminists. I don't see how the olden days were such a bad thing. And like I said, we need to focus on the present. It is unreasonable for women to use the past as an excuse to use double standards against men in the present, even though the past was often better than the present.

Quote from: Jaime on Fri May 25, 2012 - 11:44:01

Quote from: Cally on Thu May 24, 2012 - 22:24:52

Quote from: Jaime on Wed May 23, 2012 - 10:24:30
I have heard our preacher use such as an ice breaker of sorts. It has nothing to do with pitting men against women. It's context. If Shoebat meant it as anything but humor, then yes. Most times when our preacher does it, it is self deprecating humor. The men never rise up and dispute a clear joke. THAT would be shallow and nonsensical. Has a preacher said things serious about the subject? Look at the movie review section on the movie Courageous. The preacher DingDong is dead serious in his pitting men against women. That is clearly wrong. No humor intended with his remarks. I reject his entire thesis on the thread about a religious movie with a strong Christian message is somehow emasculating to men.

He wants to pit men against women? Or perhaps, warn men that the movie is an attempt to put on shackles of manipulation on men and reduce their value to nothing?

Yes, I still have to see that movie . . . something I won't pay a cent to do, but I'm really inclined to believe Dingdong after watching Fireproof.

That's unfortunate for you, in my opinion, especially as a young person. These movies are made by a church group to portray a sermon in story form. The power of unconditional love is the theme of Fireproof. It could have easily been portrayed with the wife's and husband's parts reversed and been just as powerful. I assume since Cameron was the professional actor capable of more accurately portraying the gamut of emotions his part was chosen as it was. Nothing at all speaking to how men should become emasculated in order to have a successful relationship with a woman. If Kirk Cameron's character had told his wife to jump in the lake and rush to the divorce proceedings, it would have ended like 50% or more of the marriages in the country. No life lesson in that. Hollywood could have certainly taken it and focused on the pain and misery of all that, but the LESSON was what was important for the church group who produced the film.

Again, I pray that you see this for YOUR sake, not mine. I've been very happily married 39 years. And it IS very much a give and take proposition requiring extraordinary mustering of Christ-like behavior including as much as humanly possible, unconditional love. We as men are to love our wives as Christ loved the church. (Eph 5:25) That sometimes takes "tricking ourselves" as in the lovedare to push beyond how we want to react in the flesh. It's akinned to Jesus' admonition to turn the other cheek type thing. It doesn't come naturally. The lovedare as portrayed in the movie is not a husband emasculating himself before his wife, but portraying Christ-like love, even when the flesh doesn't want to. An abhorrent thing for you I guess, but absolutely essential for both husbands and wives.  

Jaime I've known lots of men older than I who are "happily married" with women I can't imagine putting up with, and let me just say this, as brutal as it sounds: I would never want to end up like them. As "happy" as these guys claim to be, I see their very being compromised, they've been domesticated, they're under control. Their bold ambition, audacity, and their energy (I could go on) just isn't like a single man's. What they've lost is a terrible loss for themselves and for the rest of the world.

That's "unconditional love" for their wives, or is it worship, to the point that they're party to destroying themselves in the name of loving their wives "sacrificially"? Ahab and Jezebel had a "successful marriage." Crazy as it sounds, I think there are objectives more primary than avoiding divorce, as painful as that experience is.

All these lamentations about Fathers who just aren't putting out enough is just a feedback loop: they're HURTING Fathers continually which is exactly what's making it difficult for them to "step up." I haven't seen "Courageous," but I am rather convinced that's the gist of the ugly feedback loop of all the griping that goes on at men. Men DO need to step up, but in ways that won't make the general world very happy in the short run--and I mean boldly stepping up against injustices, including ones that cause themselves damage. Men are for saving the world by making changes in it and impacting it boldly, not for changing to accommodate a dying world.

I can't imagine that film studio saying a word about the accountability of women. If you can, then you have a more active imagination than I (whether it's "better" or not is a different story).

Cally, I truly feel sorry for you bro. Like I said, i ain't trying to convince you for my benefit or to win an argument but for your benefit. I've got better things to do than to explain the obvious. 

Okay, this is to all three of you!  The Bible specifically tells wives to submit to their husbands.  It also specifically tells us to love one another.  As long as we men as loving women as we should, then we are playing our part.  It doesn't matter if women are "domesticating" the husband or what have you.  A good marriage/relationship works hand in hand and there is NO domestication or dominance or what have you.  Does it say in the Bible "Love one another, unless they try to domesticate or dominate you"?  No!  Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself.  To live you must give your life away.  What is 60-70 or so years on this earth compared to an ETERNITY in Heaven?! 

The fact of the matter is we all have our faults and sins.  If we all judged one another, we would hate everyone but ourselves.  Leave the judgments up to God and worry about your own faith instead of spotting out someone else's fault(s).  Our duty on this earth is to glorify Jesus and live and love Him and to love one another.  It's no different for us trying to domesticate or dominant someone of a different or same gender than we feel like they are doing to us.  An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.  Turn the other cheek. 

I'm sorry, but we all need to man up and respect women no matter what, myself included. 

Quote from: wolflet7 on Fri May 25, 2012 - 22:18:20
Okay, this is to all three of you!  The Bible specifically tells wives to submit to their husbands.  It also specifically tells us to love one another.  As long as we men as loving women as we should, then we are playing our part.  It doesn't matter if women are "domesticating" the husband or what have you.  A good marriage/relationship works hand in hand and there is NO domestication or dominance or what have you.  Does it say in the Bible "Love one another, unless they try to domesticate or dominate you"?  No!  Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself.  To live you must give your life away.  What is 60-70 or so years on this earth compared to an ETERNITY in Heaven?! 

The fact of the matter is we all have our faults and sins.  If we all judged one another, we would hate everyone but ourselves.  Leave the judgments up to God and worry about your own faith instead of spotting out someone else's fault(s).  Our duty on this earth is to glorify Jesus and live and love Him and to love one another.  It's no different for us trying to domesticate or dominant someone of a different or same gender than we feel like they are doing to us.  An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.  Turn the other cheek. 

I'm sorry, but we all need to man up and respect women no matter what, myself included. 

Wolflet, men getting domesticated and otherwise neutered after they get married is exactly what in turn causes wives to be unsatisfied with their husbands, and the general world dissatisfied with men. They/we can't put out like the world needs them to after that damage is done.

Men need to "man up" and refuse to let that happen to themselves for everybody's sake. What's the conflict with "respecting women"? Modern studies (for whatever you might think that's worth) are saying that women are less happy ever since they've been "liberated." (and the social scientist geniuses are still trying to figure out the mystery of why that is)

When you say "love" or "respect" women you can't take that under the conventional definitions. When you think about loving people in general, that doesn't especially mean giving them what they say they want.

After saying all that, what, specifically, do you have in mind?

Cally, you bring up an interesting point about the whole love not meaning giving them what they want.  I do agree with that.  However, we still need to love them like Jesus.  I was thinking by "manning up" that us men show some specific females a good role model by forgiving and forgetting, just as Jesus has done for us.  As for the marriage aspect, it goes both ways.  If a man marries a..."moody"...female, to put it in lighter terms, he should have seen it coming.  Maybe men should make wiser choices when it comes to finding a marriage partner, and vice versa. 

Going back to the original problem though, I've known girls who have had interest in me and that I've dated who haven't tried to domesticate/dominant me in the relationship.  On the other hand, I've had a girl who I felt has tried to do such, although she said she had no such intentions.  Making a generalization and saying that the entire female gender, or at least most of them, always try to domesticate/dominant a male is judgmental. 

Quote from: wolflet7 on Fri May 25, 2012 - 23:45:51
Cally, you bring up an interesting point about the whole love not meaning giving them what they want.  I do agree with that.  However, we still need to love them like Jesus.  I was thinking by "manning up" that us men show some specific females a good role model by forgiving and forgetting, just as Jesus has done for us.  As for the marriage aspect, it goes both ways.  If a man marries a..."moody"...female, to put it in lighter terms, he should have seen it coming.  Maybe men should make wiser choices when it comes to finding a marriage partner, and vice versa. 

Going back to the original problem though, I've known girls who have had interest in me and that I've dated who haven't tried to domesticate/dominant me in the relationship.  On the other hand, I've had a girl who I felt has tried to do such, although she said she had no such intentions.  Making a generalization and saying that the entire female gender, or at least most of them, always try to domesticate/dominant a male is judgmental. 

It's more of a judgment on accepted practices than anything.

The fact that certain behaviors are "acceptable" by a general culture means you can't see them coming. You don't know when/where you're safe from destructive behaviors and when you're the recipient, you're hard-pressed to get others on your side.

My back-and-forth with Jaime is that men getting MAJOR hits to their testosterone (if you'll take that as a metaphor) after getting married or even just into those communities is an accepted practice in Christian culture and then people have the nerve to turn around and complain at men when it's hard for them to "be a man" and put out. Do all women do that to men? Of course not. Not by a long shot. But men aren't protected from it and the outcome is not good for men or their wives or anyone else.

"I'm sorry, but we all need to man up and respect women no matter what, myself included."

Women also need to woman up and give men the respect to be the leaders. Women need to stand up and support a father's rights instead of allowing the feminists to cause discrimination against men. Women also need to woman up and realize that it's wrong to belittle men and make crude jokes about them. Women are not holier than men. God will judge us all fairly. God is no feminist.

Cally what do you mean by domesticated? Are you saying that men shouldn't help to clean or cook etc?

Quote from: Cally on Fri May 25, 2012 - 23:57:52

Quote from: wolflet7 on Fri May 25, 2012 - 23:45:51
Cally, you bring up an interesting point about the whole love not meaning giving them what they want.  I do agree with that.  However, we still need to love them like Jesus.  I was thinking by "manning up" that us men show some specific females a good role model by forgiving and forgetting, just as Jesus has done for us.  As for the marriage aspect, it goes both ways.  If a man marries a..."moody"...female, to put it in lighter terms, he should have seen it coming.  Maybe men should make wiser choices when it comes to finding a marriage partner, and vice versa. 

Going back to the original problem though, I've known girls who have had interest in me and that I've dated who haven't tried to domesticate/dominant me in the relationship.  On the other hand, I've had a girl who I felt has tried to do such, although she said she had no such intentions.  Making a generalization and saying that the entire female gender, or at least most of them, always try to domesticate/dominant a male is judgmental. 

It's more of a judgment on accepted practices than anything.

The fact that certain behaviors are "acceptable" by a general culture means you can't see them coming. You don't know when/where you're safe from destructive behaviors and when you're the recipient, you're hard-pressed to get others on your side.

My back-and-forth with Jaime is that men getting MAJOR hits to their testosterone (if you'll take that as a metaphor) after getting married or even just into those communities is an accepted practice in Christian culture and then people have the nerve to turn around and complain at men when it's hard for them to "be a man" and put out. Do all women do that to men? Of course not. Not by a long shot. But men aren't protected from it and the outcome is not good for men or their wives or anyone else.

Cally, I still don't think you have shown where Cameron's actions with the lovedare was in anyway a hit to his testosterone? What he exhibited was Jesusterone - unconditional love. If you think that is unmanly................then I don't see how Christianity is for you at all. Do we all know women that belittle their husbands into quivering masses? Of course, that isn't what the movie or the sermon of the movie was about. Christianity isn't living a real life chick flick, and getting your testerone removed a molecule at a time. That is such a shallow viewpoint.  I assure you it is still possible to golf, hunt, fish, chew tobacco, and such even after doing things like the love dare and saving a marriage. One doesn't have to deposit his testicles in a lockbox to have a successful marriage, but it DOES without a doubt require unconditional love EXACTLY like was displayed and responded to in the move.

By the way, what would have been YOUR story line of Fireproof? Knowing the initial circumstances, how would you have written the screen play?

Quote from: chosenone on Sat May 26, 2012 - 06:49:10
Cally what do you mean by domesticated? Are you saying that men shouldn't help to clean or cook etc?

No. I'm a single man so I cook and clean. 

It's a figure of speech, like the way one domesticates a pet, for example. (I'm pretty sure I'm not the on who started that) He's brought totally under control and tamed.

Is that a little too abstract?

Quote from: Jaime on Sat May 26, 2012 - 08:23:54

Quote from: Cally on Fri May 25, 2012 - 23:57:52

Quote from: wolflet7 on Fri May 25, 2012 - 23:45:51
Cally, you bring up an interesting point about the whole love not meaning giving them what they want.  I do agree with that.  However, we still need to love them like Jesus.  I was thinking by "manning up" that us men show some specific females a good role model by forgiving and forgetting, just as Jesus has done for us.  As for the marriage aspect, it goes both ways.  If a man marries a..."moody"...female, to put it in lighter terms, he should have seen it coming.  Maybe men should make wiser choices when it comes to finding a marriage partner, and vice versa.  

Going back to the original problem though, I've known girls who have had interest in me and that I've dated who haven't tried to domesticate/dominant me in the relationship.  On the other hand, I've had a girl who I felt has tried to do such, although she said she had no such intentions.  Making a generalization and saying that the entire female gender, or at least most of them, always try to domesticate/dominant a male is judgmental.  

It's more of a judgment on accepted practices than anything.

The fact that certain behaviors are "acceptable" by a general culture means you can't see them coming. You don't know when/where you're safe from destructive behaviors and when you're the recipient, you're hard-pressed to get others on your side.

My back-and-forth with Jaime is that men getting MAJOR hits to their testosterone (if you'll take that as a metaphor) after getting married or even just into those communities is an accepted practice in Christian culture and then people have the nerve to turn around and complain at men when it's hard for them to "be a man" and put out. Do all women do that to men? Of course not. Not by a long shot. But men aren't protected from it and the outcome is not good for men or their wives or anyone else.

Cally, I still don't think you have shown where Cameron's actions with the lovedare was in anyway a hit to his testosterone? What he exhibited was Jesusterone - unconditional love. If you think that is unmanly................then I don't see how Christianity is for you at all. Do we all know women that belittle their husbands into quivering masses? Of course, that isn't what the movie or the sermon of the movie was about. Christianity isn't living a real life chick flick, and getting your testerone removed a molecule at a time. That is such a shallow viewpoint.  I assure you it is still possible to golf, hunt, fish, chew tobacco, and such even after doing things like the love dare and saving a marriage. One doesn't have to deposit his testicles in a lockbox to have a successful marriage, but it DOES without a doubt require unconditional love EXACTLY like was displayed and responded to in the move.

By the way, what would have been YOUR story line of Fireproof? Knowing the initial circumstances, how would you have written the screen play?

As much as I'd like to answer question about Fireproof, the "initial circumstances" in this case are more a question of the characters . . . which are not well-defined or well-written. Everybody in the movie shapeshifts to suit the pastor/congregation roles at the writers' whim so much that it's jarring when they try to come out of preaching into making the audience believe that they're actual characters.

So let's just propose a scenario: man is less than perfect, woman has all the answers. As a writer, I'm not going to wave a magic wand and say the man totally becomes perfect. To skip lots of plot, though, I'd say eventually he learns not to take her at face value so much but starts to provide some real direction for the house. She might leave out of a total refusal to show respect, as he also doesn't ingest the sort of venom that Solomon says can rot a man's bones, or she might find the man interesting again and be encouraged to be a part of what he's up to.

That's what God gives a man: a higher purpose. A godly woman will love to be a part of it.

Either way, he won't "take responsibility" for her actions--hey, have you seen a movie called "The Insider"? THAT'S a good flick!!! A man sacrificed everything he had to do the right thing, and his wife wouldn't endure with him when the going got tough. He goes from rich to poor because of a purpose, makes lots of sacrifices for the sake of doing what's right.

Then the objects that he thinks he needs (like the boat) might shrink in significance, not especially because that's a bad thing, but because having meaning in what he does makes him not feel so taxed and desperate for relief.

I'd have a character arc that kind of looks like that. For something like the "love dare" thing . . . um, not that a man shouldn't work to please his wife, but that's not the central issue--putting purpose into the house and leading into it are what's important.

You've made it clear that you consider Fireproof to be an authority of morality like the scriptures themselves, even to the point of using the film as a judgment as whether "Christianity is for me."

My central issue with THAT film is this, and I've said it many times: the general vibe I get through that film is that men are supposed to feel 200% responsible for a marriage. To quote one of the many lazily-thought out ideas in the film: "A woman is like a rose, if you take care of her, she'll bloom." And the context of that statement is totally to say that if the husband does the right thing, the woman will start acting perfect, and that's just a lie that heaps ungodly guilt on a man who can in fact do the right thing and still find that he's stuck with a contentious woman.

Good luck with your future wife. Though luck has nothing to do with, but I'm guessing you are gonna need some.

Remember the reason for the movie was that the church that produced it wanted to portray scriptural principals and they did. Nothing more, nothing less than unconditional love, IF you want to fireproof our marriages. A very true and scriptural concept. And you get to keep your testosterone. A testosteronectomy was NOT portrayed, and no testicles were harmed in the making of the movie. Even for cave men, movie good, men good, saveum marriage.

Forget the movie, if you and your future wife have any chance, BOTH will have to be willing to exhibit unconditional love at one time or the other and maybe not even at the same time. If you want a lasting marriage fireproofing will be necessary. Because fires will definitely come.

Quote from: Jaime on Sat May 26, 2012 - 18:40:26
Good luck with your future wife. Though luck has nothing to do with, but I'm guessing you are gonna need some.

Remember the reason for the movie was that the church that produced it wanted to portray scriptural principals and they did. Nothing more, nothing less than unconditional love, IF you want to fireproof our marriages. A very true and scriptural concept. And you get to keep your testosterone. A testosteronectomy was NOT portrayed, and no testicles were harmed in the making of the movie. Even for cave men, movie good, men good, saveum marriage.

Forget the movie, if you and your future wife have any chance, BOTH will have to be willing to exhibit unconditional love at one time or the other and maybe not even at the same time. If you want a lasting marriage fireproofing will be necessary. Because fires will definitely come.

Thank you for your gracious advice. I agree with the "unconditional love" part except it looks like we might disagree on exactly how that is put into practice.

It's put into affect pretty much just like the movie portrayed, whether husband or wife is the one that employs it. Loving someone even when they are unloveable. Kinda like Jesus does with us. Kinda like turning the other cheek when someone hits you on the other. It's counter to our flesh. Nothing about our flesh would have pursued the lovedare like in the movie. People married many years will all tell you that unconditional love is just that. Loving him/her when they aren't loveable. It DOES work without a doubt. When that level of love is ceased, a marriage is not then fireproof. If divorce is an option, chances are a divorce will happen. For my wife and I, divorce was never an option. We took vows, and meant them. Both of us are unloveable at times. If the other one responded in kind, our relationship wouldn't be long for this world. The other one has to love the unloveable one back to reality. EXACTLY what happened in the movie. Though the lovedare was a structured ever increasing intensity program. Like Cameron found out, it usually takes several steps, it would never work on the first one. The unloveable one HAS to see the other sacrificing something of value to them, like Cameron's bonus money that he would have usually spent on something just for him. When his wife saw that he spent it on her invalid mother seeking no credit, THAT was when unconditional love became real to her. The parties could have easily been switched and she could have been the one giving the unconditional love gift that slapped him up beside the head. It's an awesome concept, or could we say SERMON.

I've shared that this is exactly how it works in real life for my marriage and I'm sure others. How would you see unconditional love being put into practice in your future marriage? If your future wife was mad about something you did or she thought you did, how would you see unconditional love playing out for you in that situation, much like Cameron found himself in? Could you see yourself doing a lovedare to bring your wife back to her senses? Would it be worth it? I've seen it happen EXACTLY like the movie portrayed where the other party broke down and was amazed at the unconditional love shown them when they were unloveable and the relationship was restored. Much like we as Christians feel when we think we have done something too heinous for Jesus to forgive and when we realize that he loves us anyway. Would you be willing to fireproof your future marriage as Jesus has fireproofed his relationship with us, or do you project a relationship of no fires?

Who cares?

I don't know how many here have seen Jackass, The Dudesons, or the like, as it is not exactly recommended Christian theater.  But it should not go unnoticed that the female persuasion does not partake in such nonsense.....yeah I have to agree, women are smarter than men. 


Cheers,
Carey

Quote from: Carey on Sat Jun 16, 2012 - 17:27:30
I don't know how many here have seen Jackass, The Dudesons, or the like, as it is not exactly recommended Christian theater.  But it should not go unnoticed that the female persuasion does not partake in such nonsense.....yeah I have to agree, women are smarter than men. 


Cheers,
Carey

All you're arguing there is that women don't do as much self-depreciating humor, I think.

Quote from: Satan_Is_A_Loser on Sat Jun 16, 2012 - 14:28:10
Who cares?

Couldn't have said it better myself!  What's this really going to matter when it comes to the Kingdom of God?

Quote from: Cally on Sat Jun 16, 2012 - 17:30:23

All you're arguing there is that women don't do as much self-depreciating humor, I think.

Nope not really.  Although It manifests itself in different ways, women too can hold their own in that department.  My comment was kind of in jest, I apologize for it was somewhat trollish in nature, and did not add much substance to the thread.    

As for the topic, IMO any comparison of intelligence between the sexes is so fraught with categories, variables, and sampling error, I don't see how any useful information can be gleaned.  If I look back on anecdotal evidence in my own experience, I see no correlation whatsoever.

What is important is that the two can often come together and create something more intellectually complex and superior to what they were apart.   God did not mean for us to compete with one another, but rather compliment.

Cheers,
Carey.

Quote from: Carey on Sat Jun 16, 2012 - 20:04:00

Quote from: Cally on Sat Jun 16, 2012 - 17:30:23

All you're arguing there is that women don't do as much self-depreciating humor, I think.

Nope not really.  Although It manifests itself in different ways, women too can hold their own in that department.  My comment was kind of in jest, I apologize for it was somewhat trollish in nature, and did not add much substance to the thread.    

As for the topic, IMO any comparison of intelligence between the sexes is so fraught with categories, variables, and sampling error, I don't see how any useful information can be gleaned.  If I look back on anecdotal evidence in my own experience, I see no correlation whatsoever.

What is important is that the two can often come together and create something more intellectually complex and superior to what they were apart.   God did not mean for us to compete with one another, but rather compliment.

Cheers,
Carey.

Indeed, the functionality of truly healthy male-female relationships makes us into an effective unit.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Jun 17, 2012 - 16:50:47
Indeed, the functionality of truly healthy male-female relationships makes us into an effective unit.

Hey Cally,

I am pretty sure my wife would say I was "smarter" than her; academically, mathematically, mechanically, and with regards to spatial awareness(ie. navigation).

However, I can not compete with her in other areas; patience, forethought, common sense, empathy, sympathy, creativity, morality, compassion, and just sheer goodness of heart.  I may be smarter, but she is wiser.

When I act by myself, I do many stupid things.  When I seek her input that seldom happens.

My wife is amazing, she humbles me, she makes me a better man.

Cheers,
Carey.

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Tue May 22, 2012 - 16:34:21
There is a guy called Walid Shoebat who use to be a former Muslim. He is now a Christian and travels round warning churches about the threat of Islam. I have one of his books and he seems very genuine. However, on quite a few occasions when he's giving a sermon he says, "Women are smarter than men." And then people laugh and start clapping.

Now, as a man I do not know who is smarter. But the reason I find his statement a little ludicrous is because of technology. Men are the ones who have created space ships, satellite, computers, TV, airplanes, factories, machines, medication, etc. If it wasn't for men inventing computers and factories with machinery, millions of women wouldn't have a job. It's because of men creating all this technology that more women are able to work. How in the name of common sense can somebody make such a bold claim and say, "Women are smarter than men?"

I'm not saying men are smarter than women. Not at all. But to say that women are smarter than men (when men are the ones who have created all this technology) is a little naive and arrogant.

What do you think?

Women use to not be ALLOWED to invent and create, so this is not really a fair statement. Women have had to catch up, and prove themselves. It's terrible how men use to (and sometimes still) treat them. They were bossed around with no freedom, only being married off to people so that a male could have his "pleasures" with the beautiful girl (often young). Girls have had it tough.
I am a boy, but yet I do not understand about men believing they are the ultimate gender. Women are just as smart, tough, and equal as men. No gender is smarter than the other.

Quote from: FlawedWings on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 20:40:56

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Tue May 22, 2012 - 16:34:21
There is a guy called Walid Shoebat who use to be a former Muslim. He is now a Christian and travels round warning churches about the threat of Islam. I have one of his books and he seems very genuine. However, on quite a few occasions when he's giving a sermon he says, "Women are smarter than men." And then people laugh and start clapping.

Now, as a man I do not know who is smarter. But the reason I find his statement a little ludicrous is because of technology. Men are the ones who have created space ships, satellite, computers, TV, airplanes, factories, machines, medication, etc. If it wasn't for men inventing computers and factories with machinery, millions of women wouldn't have a job. It's because of men creating all this technology that more women are able to work. How in the name of common sense can somebody make such a bold claim and say, "Women are smarter than men?"

I'm not saying men are smarter than women. Not at all. But to say that women are smarter than men (when men are the ones who have created all this technology) is a little naive and arrogant.

What do you think?

Women use to not be ALLOWED to invent and create, so this is not really a fair statement. Women have had to catch up, and prove themselves. It's terrible how men use to (and sometimes still) treat them. They were bossed around with no freedom, only being married off to people so that a male could have his "pleasures" with the beautiful girl (often young). Girls have had it tough.
I am a boy, but yet I do not understand about men believing they are the ultimate gender. Women are just as smart, tough, and equal as men. No gender is smarter than the other.

Men, historically, have literally worked themselves as far as to death to provide for and protect their wives and women in general. But some people like to assume that women always had the worse end of the deal.

When I was younger I would have regurgitated some of the tenets of feminism myself. When their hypocrisy bites you again and again and again as a male (and you find out that a minority--albeit growing--of people even care about the fact) you'll likely snap out of it. That's what usually happens with men of my generation and younger. I just hope it doesn't hurt too much before then for you.

BTW I do believe men are the more risk-taking gender which is the reason for inventions--i.e. true exploration of uncharted territory as it were. That doesn't mean "smarter" per se, but more likely to defy "safe" convention for the sake of an end objective: inventing.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 21:47:17

Quote from: FlawedWings on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 20:40:56

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Tue May 22, 2012 - 16:34:21
There is a guy called Walid Shoebat who use to be a former Muslim. He is now a Christian and travels round warning churches about the threat of Islam. I have one of his books and he seems very genuine. However, on quite a few occasions when he's giving a sermon he says, "Women are smarter than men." And then people laugh and start clapping.

Now, as a man I do not know who is smarter. But the reason I find his statement a little ludicrous is because of technology. Men are the ones who have created space ships, satellite, computers, TV, airplanes, factories, machines, medication, etc. If it wasn't for men inventing computers and factories with machinery, millions of women wouldn't have a job. It's because of men creating all this technology that more women are able to work. How in the name of common sense can somebody make such a bold claim and say, "Women are smarter than men?"

I'm not saying men are smarter than women. Not at all. But to say that women are smarter than men (when men are the ones who have created all this technology) is a little naive and arrogant.

What do you think?

Women use to not be ALLOWED to invent and create, so this is not really a fair statement. Women have had to catch up, and prove themselves. It's terrible how men use to (and sometimes still) treat them. They were bossed around with no freedom, only being married off to people so that a male could have his "pleasures" with the beautiful girl (often young). Girls have had it tough.
I am a boy, but yet I do not understand about men believing they are the ultimate gender. Women are just as smart, tough, and equal as men. No gender is smarter than the other.

Men, historically, have literally worked themselves as far as to death to provide for and protect their wives and women in general. But some people like to assume that women always had the worse end of the deal.

When I was younger I would have regurgitated some of the tenets of feminism myself. When their hypocrisy bites you again and again and again as a male (and you find out that a minority--albeit growing--of people even care about the fact) you'll likely snap out of it. That's what usually happens with men of my generation and younger. I just hope it doesn't hurt too much before then for you.

BTW I do believe men are the more risk-taking gender which is the reason for inventions--i.e. true exploration of uncharted territory as it were. That doesn't mean "smarter" per se, but more likely to defy "safe" convention for the sake of an end objective: inventing.

I simply beilieve neither gender is more superior than the other. God is faster, stronger, smarter, and better than human guys and girls. So I don't really see the point of people who think one gender is better. God outshines every single one of us, male and female, so neither gender is the "best" at something. God will always be better.
..Was that understandable or was that a load of waffle, make no sense, and was a confusing thing to say that got this conversation nowhere? I'm a teenager, so what I say probably doesn't make any sense ha ha.

Quote from: FlawedWings on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 21:55:40

Quote from: Cally on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 21:47:17

Quote from: FlawedWings on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 20:40:56

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Tue May 22, 2012 - 16:34:21
There is a guy called Walid Shoebat who use to be a former Muslim. He is now a Christian and travels round warning churches about the threat of Islam. I have one of his books and he seems very genuine. However, on quite a few occasions when he's giving a sermon he says, "Women are smarter than men." And then people laugh and start clapping.

Now, as a man I do not know who is smarter. But the reason I find his statement a little ludicrous is because of technology. Men are the ones who have created space ships, satellite, computers, TV, airplanes, factories, machines, medication, etc. If it wasn't for men inventing computers and factories with machinery, millions of women wouldn't have a job. It's because of men creating all this technology that more women are able to work. How in the name of common sense can somebody make such a bold claim and say, "Women are smarter than men?"

I'm not saying men are smarter than women. Not at all. But to say that women are smarter than men (when men are the ones who have created all this technology) is a little naive and arrogant.

What do you think?

Women use to not be ALLOWED to invent and create, so this is not really a fair statement. Women have had to catch up, and prove themselves. It's terrible how men use to (and sometimes still) treat them. They were bossed around with no freedom, only being married off to people so that a male could have his "pleasures" with the beautiful girl (often young). Girls have had it tough.
I am a boy, but yet I do not understand about men believing they are the ultimate gender. Women are just as smart, tough, and equal as men. No gender is smarter than the other.

Men, historically, have literally worked themselves as far as to death to provide for and protect their wives and women in general. But some people like to assume that women always had the worse end of the deal.

When I was younger I would have regurgitated some of the tenets of feminism myself. When their hypocrisy bites you again and again and again as a male (and you find out that a minority--albeit growing--of people even care about the fact) you'll likely snap out of it. That's what usually happens with men of my generation and younger. I just hope it doesn't hurt too much before then for you.

BTW I do believe men are the more risk-taking gender which is the reason for inventions--i.e. true exploration of uncharted territory as it were. That doesn't mean "smarter" per se, but more likely to defy "safe" convention for the sake of an end objective: inventing.

I simply beilieve neither gender is more superior than the other. God is faster, stronger, smarter, and better than human guys and girls. So I don't really see the point of people who think one gender is better. God outshines every single one of us, male and female, so neither gender is the "best" at something. God will always be better.
..Was that understandable or was that a load of waffle, make no sense, and was a confusing thing to say that got this conversation nowhere? I'm a teenager, so what I say probably doesn't make any sense ha ha.

Nah I agree with you. It's just that my days of white-knighting women JUST because they're women are totally over. In my mind only an anti-feminist woman deserves chivalrous treatment.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 21:57:04

Quote from: FlawedWings on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 21:55:40

Quote from: Cally on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 21:47:17

Quote from: FlawedWings on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 20:40:56

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Tue May 22, 2012 - 16:34:21
There is a guy called Walid Shoebat who use to be a former Muslim. He is now a Christian and travels round warning churches about the threat of Islam. I have one of his books and he seems very genuine. However, on quite a few occasions when he's giving a sermon he says, "Women are smarter than men." And then people laugh and start clapping.

Now, as a man I do not know who is smarter. But the reason I find his statement a little ludicrous is because of technology. Men are the ones who have created space ships, satellite, computers, TV, airplanes, factories, machines, medication, etc. If it wasn't for men inventing computers and factories with machinery, millions of women wouldn't have a job. It's because of men creating all this technology that more women are able to work. How in the name of common sense can somebody make such a bold claim and say, "Women are smarter than men?"

I'm not saying men are smarter than women. Not at all. But to say that women are smarter than men (when men are the ones who have created all this technology) is a little naive and arrogant.

What do you think?

Women use to not be ALLOWED to invent and create, so this is not really a fair statement. Women have had to catch up, and prove themselves. It's terrible how men use to (and sometimes still) treat them. They were bossed around with no freedom, only being married off to people so that a male could have his "pleasures" with the beautiful girl (often young). Girls have had it tough.
I am a boy, but yet I do not understand about men believing they are the ultimate gender. Women are just as smart, tough, and equal as men. No gender is smarter than the other.

Men, historically, have literally worked themselves as far as to death to provide for and protect their wives and women in general. But some people like to assume that women always had the worse end of the deal.

When I was younger I would have regurgitated some of the tenets of feminism myself. When their hypocrisy bites you again and again and again as a male (and you find out that a minority--albeit growing--of people even care about the fact) you'll likely snap out of it. That's what usually happens with men of my generation and younger. I just hope it doesn't hurt too much before then for you.

BTW I do believe men are the more risk-taking gender which is the reason for inventions--i.e. true exploration of uncharted territory as it were. That doesn't mean "smarter" per se, but more likely to defy "safe" convention for the sake of an end objective: inventing.

I simply beilieve neither gender is more superior than the other. God is faster, stronger, smarter, and better than human guys and girls. So I don't really see the point of people who think one gender is better. God outshines every single one of us, male and female, so neither gender is the "best" at something. God will always be better.
..Was that understandable or was that a load of waffle, make no sense, and was a confusing thing to say that got this conversation nowhere? I'm a teenager, so what I say probably doesn't make any sense ha ha.

Nah I agree with you. It's just that my days of white-knighting women JUST because they're women are totally over. In my mind only an anti-feminist woman deserves chivalrous treatment.

I get where you are coming from. And glad I made sense for once. My mind is a big bowl of nonsense that also can't spell

Ya godda lern ta spel gud, kid.  Utterwise pipple will thik your dum.

Quote from: Willie T on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 22:20:07
Ya godda lern ta spel gud, kid.  Utterwise pipple will thik your dum.

Atleast I spell how it sounds. Pipple doesn't sound like people

Quote from: FlawedWings on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 22:23:00

Quote from: Willie T on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 22:20:07
Ya godda lern ta spel gud, kid.  Utterwise pipple will thik your dum.

Atleast I spell how it sounds. Pipple doesn't sound like people

HAHAHA. PWNED. Beautifully done, FlawedWings. 

Quote from: Cally on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 22:24:19

Quote from: FlawedWings on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 22:23:00

Quote from: Willie T on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 22:20:07
Ya godda lern ta spel gud, kid.  Utterwise pipple will thik your dum.

Atleast I spell how it sounds. Pipple doesn't sound like people

HAHAHA. PWNED. Beautifully done, FlawedWings. 

Thank you, but please excuse me if I burst into a random laughing fit, I am having an interesting conversation with Willie T in "Christian Goth being shunned by other Christians" (my topic post thingy)

Quote from: Cally on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 21:47:17
When I was younger I would have regurgitated some of the tenets of feminism myself.

Really?  Let's review the "basic tenets" of feminism:

"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"  nah

"In the beginning God made a man.  Then God said 'I can do better than that.' "  really?

"the only good man is a dead man." uh-huh.

"All men are liars, cheaters and rapists.  All women are victims."

And don't forget the research (way behind Jill Ireland's timeline) to be able to perfect reproduction without any male input so they can eliminate all males from the planet.

Quote from: FlawedWings on Mon Aug 06, 2012 - 22:23:00
Pipple doesn't sound like people

No, but they both pop nicely.