Christian Forums

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 11:55:44

Quote from: Funguy33 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 - 17:55:31
In Daniel 1:3-4, people with disabilities are regarded as worthless. The king ordered Aphpenazi, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility to be trained in the king's service. Vs 4 particularly emphasizes that the men should be handsome and without any physical defect. This view further reinforces the earlier prejudice, in which physical imperfection is seen as an impediment to the exercise of the priestly office for the descendant of Aaron.

It does not call them worthless.  What a way to read the word and hateful way to look at those who are less fortunate than you who has apparently perfect health.    It just says what the specifications were for the job of being qualified to serve in the king's palace.  And, it wasn't God making the qualifications, it was the king

The King was just quoting God on qualifications to be a Priest...Leviticus 21:16-23...

16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy. '"

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:21:11

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 11:55:44

Quote from: Funguy33 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 - 17:55:31
In Daniel 1:3-4, people with disabilities are regarded as worthless. The king ordered Aphpenazi, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility to be trained in the king's service. Vs 4 particularly emphasizes that the men should be handsome and without any physical defect. This view further reinforces the earlier prejudice, in which physical imperfection is seen as an impediment to the exercise of the priestly office for the descendant of Aaron.

It does not call them worthless.  What a way to read the word and hateful way to look at those who are less fortunate than you who has apparently perfect health.    It just says what the specifications were for the job of being qualified to serve in the king's palace.  And, it wasn't God making the qualifications, it was the king

The King was just quoting God on qualifications to be a Priest...Leviticus 21:16-23...

16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy. '"

where in there does it say worthless?

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 11:49:59
I've answered the question in the OP at length in another thread just a couple days ago. 

Shameless plug to that thread:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/a-theology-of-the-obvious/

Jarrod

You say that sometimes bad that is happening spills over unto you.
Bible says God knows when a sparrow falls to the ground.
If bad is happening, it is because you deserve it. No coincidences in life. You reap what you sow.

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:25:18

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:21:11

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 11:55:44

Quote from: Funguy33 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 - 17:55:31
In Daniel 1:3-4, people with disabilities are regarded as worthless. The king ordered Aphpenazi, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility to be trained in the king's service. Vs 4 particularly emphasizes that the men should be handsome and without any physical defect. This view further reinforces the earlier prejudice, in which physical imperfection is seen as an impediment to the exercise of the priestly office for the descendant of Aaron.

It does not call them worthless.  What a way to read the word and hateful way to look at those who are less fortunate than you who has apparently perfect health.    It just says what the specifications were for the job of being qualified to serve in the king's palace.  And, it wasn't God making the qualifications, it was the king

The King was just quoting God on qualifications to be a Priest...Leviticus 21:16-23...

16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy. '"

We all feel for anyone who is handicaped and pray, there but for the grace of God, go I.

We can pick the sin, but we cannot pick the consequences.

Being handicaped is not the only form of punishment from God. Some grow up in horrible homes or countries, etc.

where in there does it say worthless?

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:37:17
We can pick the sin, but we cannot pick the consequences.

So, if God sees fit to lift His hand of protection over you and you are in an accident that causes you to become paralyzed...you deserved it and are being punished?

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:37:17
Being handicaped is not the only form of punishment from God. Some grow up in horrible homes or countries, etc.

it.is.not!!!!  a punishment!
John 9:2-3 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:56:25

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:37:17
We can pick the sin, but we cannot pick the consequences.

So, if God sees fit to lift His hand of protection over you and you are in an accident that causes you to become paralyzed...you deserved it and are being punished?

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:37:17
Being handicaped is not the only form of punishment from God. Some grow up in horrible homes or countries, etc.

it.is.not!!!!  a punishment!
John 9:2-3 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

John 5:14 Jesus said to the man He had healed, don't sin again or next time your punishment will be worse.

John 5:14

New International Version (NIV)

14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."

HERE are a few more translations of the same verse.

It's not cool to try to make the Bible say what you want it to say.

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:00:50

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:56:25

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:37:17
We can pick the sin, but we cannot pick the consequences.

So, if God sees fit to lift His hand of protection over you and you are in an accident that causes you to become paralyzed...you deserved it and are being punished?

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:37:17
Being handicaped is not the only form of punishment from God. Some grow up in horrible homes or countries, etc.

it.is.not!!!!  a punishment!
John 9:2-3 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

John 5:14 Jesus said to the man He had healed, don't sin again or next time your punishment will be worse.

John 5:14 NAS Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

This does not say that people born with handicaps are being punished.  This implies that the man's injuries were because of a sin issue in his life...and if he wanted to remain healed, he had to give up the addiction to the sin that caused the injury.

and for all of us, the warning remains...because the thing worse than handicaps, is eternity lost without Christ.

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:10:46

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:00:50

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:56:25

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:37:17
We can pick the sin, but we cannot pick the consequences.

So, if God sees fit to lift His hand of protection over you and you are in an accident that causes you to become paralyzed...you deserved it and are being punished?

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:37:17
Being handicaped is not the only form of punishment from God. Some grow up in horrible homes or countries, etc.

it.is.not!!!!  a punishment!
John 9:2-3 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

John 5:14 Jesus said to the man He had healed, don't sin again or next time your punishment will be worse.

John 5:14 NAS Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

This does not say that people born with handicaps are being punished.  This implies that the man's injuries were because of a sin issue in his life...and if he wanted to remain healed, he had to give up the addiction to the sin that caused the injury.

and for all of us, the warning remains...because the thing worse than handicaps, is eternity lost without Christ.

The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance. In Leviticus 26:14-16, as one of the punishments for Israel's disobedience is expressed in the following way: "I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life." Samson also sinned against the Lord through his eyes; as it is written: "I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah; now get her for me as my wife" (Judges 14:2). He was therefore punished through his eyes: "Then the Philistines seized him, gorged out his eyes" (Judges 16:21). Prov. 30:17 warns that the eyes, which are disrespectful to parents, will be plucked out by birds of prey.

The blindness of the wicked men of Sodom (Wisdom 2:21) and of Elymas, the magician who obstructed the work of Paul in Cyprus (Acts 13:4-12), are specifically attributed to divine punishment. The ancient nations regarded visual impairment as the lowest degradation that could be inflicted upon humans and, by extension, to a nation. The Deuteronomist suggests that visual impairment is a curse for disobeying the commandment of God. Israel was threatened for breaking the covenant.

The Lord will inflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of the mind. At midday, you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything that you do, day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you (Deut. 28:28-29).

Two cases of paralysis further confirm that God is the cause of disability. The sudden paralysis that afflicted King Jeroboam (1 Kings 13:4) attests to this. In Zechariah 11:17, a curse is invoked upon the "negligent shepherd." God's judgment is severe; Jeroboam's arm shrivels up completely. Zechariah says: "Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded."

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:30:07

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 11:49:59
I've answered the question in the OP at length in another thread just a couple days ago. 

Shameless plug to that thread:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/a-theology-of-the-obvious/

Jarrod

You say that sometimes bad that is happening spills over unto you.
Bible says God knows when a sparrow falls to the ground.
If bad is happening, it is because you deserve it. No coincidences in life. You reap what you sow.

That is an unbiblical, non-Christian view.

To God, His people never deserve misfortune. We are not being punished when we find ourselves in difficult situations. We do reap what we sow, and we also experience the fallenness of the world we live in. However, we can count on God;s word that tells us He only has our GOOD in mind and will NEVER harm us.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:55:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

That is no longer the case.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:35:08

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 14:30:07

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 11:49:59
I've answered the question in the OP at length in another thread just a couple days ago. 

Shameless plug to that thread:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/a-theology-of-the-obvious/

Jarrod

You say that sometimes bad that is happening spills over unto you.
Bible says God knows when a sparrow falls to the ground.
If bad is happening, it is because you deserve it. No coincidences in life. You reap what you sow.

That is an unbiblical, non-Christian view.

To God, His people never deserve misfortune. We are not being punished when we find ourselves in difficult situations. We do reap what we sow, and we also experience the fallenness of the world we live in. However, we can count on God;s word that tells us He only has our GOOD in mind and will NEVER harm us.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Deuteronomy 28

However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:


16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.

18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:55:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

No...anyone who was disabled was not a priest. ANYONE can serve/obey/please God.

Here is the verse in contex

Exodus 34: 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation."

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "Lord," he said, "if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance."

10 Then the Lord said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you.


Notice what happens when Moses asks for forgiveness for any that are stiff necked after God speaks of punishment...He forgives and makes an amazing covenant with the people.
Generational sins are passed on through those who just coast through life, not recognising the sin...but for those who stand and say "God forgive the stiff necked generation, forgive those that come from it, cleans us and make us new" God will do just that.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:03:49

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:55:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

That is no longer the case.

What scripture says that Jesus changed His mind?

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:07:17

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:03:49

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:55:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

That is no longer the case.

What scripture says that Jesus changed His mind?

He carried on with His plan and punished Jesus instead. Come out of law and into grace.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:13:09

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:07:17

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:03:49

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:55:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

That is no longer the case.

What scripture says that Jesus changed His mind?

He carried on with His plan and punished Jesus instead. Come out of law and into grace.

Exactly!

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:13:09

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:07:17

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:03:49

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:55:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

That is no longer the case.

What scripture says that Jesus changed His mind?

He carried on with His plan and punished Jesus instead. Come out of law and into grace.

If Jesus took the punishment, why did He tell those He helped, not to sin again? John 8:11
If you love Me, you will keep the commandments.

All men and nations implicitly fall under the covenant since they descended from Adam. This is so whether they know about it or not or whether they acknowledge it or not.

1.God destroyed the world with a flood because of their wickedness.
2. God judged Sodom and Gomorrah because of their abominations.
3. God judged Egypt with plagues because of Pharaoh's and the nations disobedience.
4. God judged the Canaanites, Amorites, Amalekites and the Hittites because of their abominations.

In none of the above cases did God explicitly made a covenant with them, but it was understood that the broke the laws of some covenant. Israel got the Covenant and the laws explicitly codified to them because God was gracious to them. He didn't allow them to wander in ignorance and to be cut off like the heathens.

5. God sent Jonah to Nineveh to urge them to repent. If Jonah didn't go they still would have been judged.
6. God judged Babylon because of their wickedness.
7. God judged the Persians and the Greeks.
8. God judged the Israelites again in A.D 70.
9. Then He went on to judge the Romans.
10. And wicked nations continue to be judged to this day. Just look around.
11. For a closer look, look at wall street where whole companies have been dissolved because of greedy executives. Look at the greedy homeowners who have their houses foreclosed on. Look at the woman who committed abortion that ends up in the psychiatric ward and driven to suicide, look at the homosexual that contracts AIDS, look at the career woman that reached her 40's and is rich, childless and miserable. Look at whole nations in Africa that were committed to communism now totally bankrupt, impoverished and corrupt. Look at the middle east as the wallow in the idolatry of Islam which manifests itself in suicide bombings, honor killings of their own daughters and economic stagnation. Look at China, the godless statist country that imposed 1 child per couple policy leading them to abort subsequent children. Look at how they constantly suffer the blight of earthquakes, and floodings which claim the lives of 1000's, not 100's or scores as the U.S tragedies.

Jesus came to fulfill the law not to abrogate it. His fulfillment came in keeping the law and offering the perfect sacrifice so that the breakers of the law who repent can be justified. To say that God's revealed law and its stipulations and sanctions are no longer binding to individuals and nations is to say that Christ came only to give individuals and nations a license to sin.

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:19:34

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:13:09

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:07:17

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:03:49

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:55:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

That is no longer the case.

What scripture says that Jesus changed His mind?

He carried on with His plan and punished Jesus instead. Come out of law and into grace.

If Jesus took the punishment, why did He tell those He helped, not to sin again? John 8:11
If you love Me, you will keep the commandments.

He was instructing about how to remain in good fellowship with God.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 20:48:50

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:19:34

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:13:09

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:07:17

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:03:49

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:55:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

That is no longer the case.

What scripture says that Jesus changed His mind?

He carried on with His plan and punished Jesus instead. Come out of law and into grace.

If Jesus took the punishment, why did He tell those He helped, not to sin again? John 8:11
If you love Me, you will keep the commandments.

He was instructing about how to remain in good fellowship with God.

He was also telling them that sin will always be punished...John 5:14

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 20:54:08

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 20:48:50

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:19:34

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:13:09

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:07:17

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 17:03:49

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 16:55:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:27:19

Quote from: Funguy33 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 - 15:21:58
The Bible portrays disability as a curse and as a result of disobedience, unbelief, and ignorance.

Disabilities can come from our actions, and would be a consequence for sinful life choices (Drunk driving, drug abuse).  BUT, those born with infirmaries, or those who become disabled at the hands of careless others or because of illness, are NOT being punished!

Exodus 34:7 says we are punished for 3 lifetimes for sins and 1000 lifetimes for blessings.
That was the reason disabled Priests were not allowed to serve God.

That is no longer the case.

What scripture says that Jesus changed His mind?

He carried on with His plan and punished Jesus instead. Come out of law and into grace.

If Jesus took the punishment, why did He tell those He helped, not to sin again? John 8:11
If you love Me, you will keep the commandments.

He was instructing about how to remain in good fellowship with God.

He was also telling them that sin will always be punished...John 5:14

Our sin is already punished, praise the Lord!

Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 08:51:28
Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

a :) ??!!!!!  This agenda of yours makes you :) ?

Lets look at the TRUE promise after the warnings 

Leviticus 26: 40-45
40 "'But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors —their unfaithfulness and their hostility toward me, 41 which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. 44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.'"



Its always best to stay under the protective covering of our loving Father, and its such a joy to know that He remembers and keep His promises to forgive and restore when we humbly come to Him for forgiveness!

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:05:38

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 08:51:28
Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

a :) ??!!!!!  This agenda of yours makes you :) ?

Go easy on him.  Christians understand there is a new covenant, but this person will have to be taught some of these things.

Quote from: Willie T on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:15:48

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:05:38

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 08:51:28
Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

a :) ??!!!!!  This agenda of yours makes you :) ?

Go easy on him.  Christians understand there is a new covenant, but this person will have to be taught some of these things.

I know...I am sorry.  I just  at the thought of :) over passages that speak of children dying and plagues upon people. 

God takes no pleasure in the distruction of the wicked

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:20:52

Quote from: Willie T on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:15:48

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:05:38

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 08:51:28
Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

a :) ??!!!!!  This agenda of yours makes you :) ?

Go easy on him.  Christians understand there is a new covenant, but this person will have to be taught some of these things.

I know...I am sorry.  I just  at the thought of :) over passages that speak of children dying and plagues upon people. 

God takes no pleasure in the distruction of the wicked

He just likes to incite things (needs attention, maybe), and you aren't that way at all..... so just let God deal with him.

Quote from: Willie T on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:28:57

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:20:52

Quote from: Willie T on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:15:48

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:05:38

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 08:51:28
Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

a :) ??!!!!!  This agenda of yours makes you :) ?

Go easy on him.  Christians understand there is a new covenant, but this person will have to be taught some of these things.

I know...I am sorry.  I just  at the thought of :) over passages that speak of children dying and plagues upon people. 

God takes no pleasure in the distruction of the wicked

He just likes to incite things (needs attention, maybe), and you aren't that way at all..... so just let God deal with him.

Explain the New Covenant and how John 5:14 fits into your belief.

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 08:51:28
Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

No more, and not MY God, and not His people!

Jeremiah 31:29-30
"The people will no longer quote this proverb:

'The parents have eaten sour grapes,
    but their children's mouths pucker at the taste.'

All people will die for their own sins—those who eat the sour grapes will be the ones whose mouths will pucker

Galatians 3:13
But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

What law are we not to follow? We will be rewarded for all broken laws.

Galatians 6:7-8: "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Life is like a garden. We reap what we sow. Solomon said: "He who sows iniquity will reap sorrow, and the rod of his anger will fail" (Pr. 22:8).

Eliphaz stated a truism: "Those who plow iniquity and sow trouble reap the same" (Job 4:8).

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:20:52

Quote from: Willie T on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:15:48

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:05:38

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 08:51:28
Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

a :) ??!!!!!  This agenda of yours makes you :) ?

Go easy on him.  Christians understand there is a new covenant, but this person will have to be taught some of these things.

I know...I am sorry.  I just  at the thought of :) over passages that speak of children dying and plagues upon people. 

God takes no pleasure in the distruction of the wicked

All of the curses were carried out by God in the Book of Lamentations...

Leviticus 26: 27-32
27 " 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over.29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings.32 I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled.

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 15:43:26

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:20:52

Quote from: Willie T on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:15:48

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:05:38

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 08:51:28
Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."

a :) ??!!!!!  This agenda of yours makes you :) ?

Go easy on him.  Christians understand there is a new covenant, but this person will have to be taught some of these things.

I know...I am sorry.  I just  at the thought of :) over passages that speak of children dying and plagues upon people. 

God takes no pleasure in the distruction of the wicked

All of the curses were carried out by God in the Book of Lamentations...

Leviticus 26: 27-32
27 " 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over.29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings.32 I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled.

and the rest of the story

Lets look at the TRUE promise after the warnings 

Leviticus 26: 40-45
40 "'But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors —their unfaithfulness and their hostility toward me, 41 which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. 44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.'"



Its always best to stay under the protective covering of our loving Father, and its such a joy to know that He remembers and keep His promises to forgive and restore when we humbly come to Him

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 15:52:12

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 15:43:26

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:20:52

Quote from: Willie T on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:15:48

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 09:05:38

Quote from: Funguy33 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 - 08:51:28
Promises of Jesus...

According to Leviticus 26:14-22 :)
         "If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.  I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall kill your children."
[/quote

a :) ??!!!!!  This agenda of yours makes you :) ?

Go easy on him.  Christians understand there is a new covenant, but this person will have to be taught some of these things.

I know...I am sorry.  I just  at the thought of :) over passages that speak of children dying and plagues upon people. 

God takes no pleasure in the distruction of the wicked

All of the curses were carried out by God in the Book of Lamentations...

Leviticus 26: 27-32
27 " 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over.29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings.32 I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled.

and the rest of the story

Lets look at the TRUE promise after the warnings 

Leviticus 26: 40-45
40 "'But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors —their unfaithfulness and their hostility toward me, 41 which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. 44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.'"



Its always best to stay under the protective covering of our loving Father, and its such a joy to know that He remembers and keep His promises to forgive and restore when we humbly come to Him

But, when we don't the punishment comes.

That is the reason bad things happen to good people.

God keeps a list of all our sins and blessings for the next time around...Malach 4:16-18