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Since the scriptures are clear that no other day was made as the day of worship except the seventh day as we see in many of the previous threads, and the Commandments show this with unblinking clarity to Christians. If they are fully aware that Sunday worship is not ordained by God or anywhere in the Bible or given by Christ or the apostles, and with full knowledge continue to transgress what is shown to them from scripture, will God wink at it, lets look at scripture......

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


It shows that God allows for mankinds ignorance, but we have Christians who are aware of the history of Sunday worship. Sunday was the established day of festival, a pagan day to the gods in the pagan world. Later, when these pagans professed Christianity, they gradually brought the practice of the pagan festivals on Sunday with them into the church, and the bishops looked the other way as long as they had 'converts' to show they were more influential or had more numbers than other bishops.

Now from scripture we see the people of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, including Jesus Christ Himself (e.g. Luke 4:16), observed the Sabbath. No where in the Bible, including after Christ's resurrection, will you find people observing the first day of the week, Sunday, as a replacement for the Sabbath.

So if Christians, knowing that Sunday is not the Sabbath, and knowing the Commandments show what is transgression or iniquity/sin, and clearly show what day is the Sabbath, continue to transgress what God commands, what will happen to them when Christ comes...

The answer is no. We can worship God any day any time. I am amazed that anyone would think that it matters that much.

I will give you an absolute "Maybe."

Quote from: Hobie on Tue Jun 26, 2012 - 04:19:17
Since the scriptures are clear that no other day was made as the day of worship except the seventh day as we see in many of the previous threads, and the Commandments show this with unblinking clarity to Christians. If they are fully aware that Sunday worship is not ordained by God or anywhere in the Bible or given by Christ or the apostles, and with full knowledge continue to transgress what is shown to them from scripture, will God wink at it, lets look at scripture......

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


It shows that God allows for mankinds ignorance, but we have Christians who are aware of the history of Sunday worship. Sunday was the established day of festival, a pagan day to the gods in the pagan world. Later, when these pagans professed Christianity, they gradually brought the practice of the pagan festivals on Sunday with them into the church, and the bishops looked the other way as long as they had 'converts' to show they were more influential or had more numbers than other bishops.

Now from scripture we see the people of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, including Jesus Christ Himself (e.g. Luke 4:16), observed the Sabbath. No where in the Bible, including after Christ's resurrection, will you find people observing the first day of the week, Sunday, as a replacement for the Sabbath.

So if Christians, knowing that Sunday is not the Sabbath, and knowing the Commandments show what is transgression or iniquity/sin, and clearly show what day is the Sabbath, continue to transgress what God commands, what will happen to them when Christ comes...

If we are still under the law, we will go to hell, that is what will happen.

But if God showed a new way, which is by grace through faith, and the new way prompts us to break the sign that we are not under the law, then, as shown in Scripture in the New Testament, we will be found putting God first, even on our agenda for the week.  We will be found reflecting the doctrine of the New Testament.

I do not keep the Sabbath on purpose because I want to please God.  I am careful not to keep it, because I love the New Way.  We have a new sign, the sign of Jonah that after 3 days he resurrected from the dead,  and we celebrate that day because:

-- Jesus was declared Son of God with power (Rom 1:4) that Sunday morning.
-- We were justified in His sight (Rom 4:25) that Sunday morning.
-- We are saved by believing what happened that wonderful Sunday morning (Rom 10:9)
-- Our faith was confirmed on that Sunday morning  (1Co 15:14-18)
-- We were begotten of God on that Sunday morning (1Pe 1:3)
-- God conquered Satan on that Sunday morning (1Co 2:8)
-- That Sunday morning gave us hope of being resurrected.
-- Jesus conquered death on that day and hour (1Co 15:54).
-- That event changed coward people into bold martyrs for God.
-- That event separated Jesus from all the other religious leaders.
--  That event caused us to be dead to the law, free from the letter of the law, and made us righteous before God.

The Sabbath, because it is for man, it is therefore made after the carnal commandment, Sunday on the other hand is made after the power of endless life.  It is written:

HEB 7:16  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

GAL 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

      -- The Lord's resurrection on Sunday morning is the central point of Christianity  (1Co 15:14,17).  Sunday morning is far more important than the Sabbath.  It is written:

1CO 15:14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.   ... 

That's why.

Peace

TD, your response is correct for gentile believers.

But if you are Jewish then you had still better be keeping a Saturday sabbath. (and that is in the New Covenant)

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 12:01:15
TD, your response is correct for gentile believers.

But if you are Jewish then you had still better be keeping a Saturday sabbath. (and that is in the New Covenant)

I will never ever argue with any Messianic Jew telling me that.  Never.

Shalom

Of course there is the argument about there being no Jew or no Gentile in the Kingdom. Would you argue with a Messianic Jew on that basis?

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 18:59:26
Of course there is the argument about there being no Jew or no Gentile in the Kingdom. Would you argue with a Messianic Jew on that basis?

And this MJ would say that you cannot do away with that distinction and unique callings on each unless (from the same sentance/verse) you are also willing to say that there is no distinction or unique callings and requirement on male and female; which would make same gender marriage just fine since there is "no distinction."

It is the same issue.  If it is ok for a Jew to do what ever, then it is ok for me as a man to marry whomever: Tom, Bill,  Sharon, Jane, Thorwald, ...

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Jun 29, 2012 - 07:50:14

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 18:59:26
Of course there is the argument about there being no Jew or no Gentile in the Kingdom. Would you argue with a Messianic Jew on that basis?

And this MJ would say that you cannot do away with that distinction and unique callings on each unless (from the same sentance/verse) you are also willing to say that there is no distinction or unique callings and requirement on male and female; which would make same gender marriage just fine since there is "no distinction."

It is the same issue.  If it is ok for a Jew to do what ever, then it is ok for me as a man to marry whomever: Tom, Bill,  Sharon, Jane, Thorwald, ...

I agree Dave, but I was playing devil's advocate with TD. I have heard that very argument brought up repeatedly on such things.

By the way,are you a Messianic Jew, or a gentile that worships at a Messianic Jewish Synagogue? I know several gentiles in my area that attend a Messianic Jewish congregation,but don't consider themselves Jewish. OR are they Jewish converts by proxy, so to speak?

And if we as gentile Christians are grafted into Israel have we not ourselves become aliens attached TO Israel (not the strip of land)?

Didn't Hobie already post a thread like this before?

Quote from: Jaime on Fri Jun 29, 2012 - 12:13:15
By the way,are you a Messianic Jew, or a gentile that worships at a Messianic Jewish Synagogue? I know several gentiles in my area that attend a Messianic Jewish congregation,but don't consider themselves Jewish. OR are they Jewish converts by proxy, so to speak?

I am a gentile adherent of MJ. I am here because God made it VERY clear to me that I could not stay in the congregation I was in.

Each group of synagogues is different in how they handle gentile members. Some are very inclusive and others not so much.  The Tikkun network is very much inclusive.

Personally, I have been offered a few leadership roles in the 14 years we have been here.  The first several I turned down because I can foresee a problem with having too many people in leadership that were not raised Jewish as they have to create and maintain an authentic "Jewish space" in the synagogue of which they are not that familiar. (if that makes any sense)

Thanks Dave for the clarification.

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 18:59:26
Of course there is the argument about there being no Jew or no Gentile in the Kingdom. Would you argue with a Messianic Jew on that basis?

I would not argue with a messianic Jew about that either,

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Shalom

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 11:51:29

If we are still under the law, we will go to hell, that is what will happen.

Galatians 5:18.  "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

"Will Sunday worship keep Christians from Eternal Life?" JUST AS SURELY AS SABBATH worship, YES! Most assuredly yes!

Quote from: Mike7 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 - 06:06:30

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 11:51:29

If we are still under the law, we will go to hell, that is what will happen.

Galatians 5:18.  "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

So how would you read these verses...

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I just noticed that, Dave.  Not Thorwald!  You can do a lot better.

and then we have this......

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Hobie

Will uncircumcision keep male Christians from Eternal Life?

If so, then square that with Paul's teaching in the NT on the subject of circumcision.

If not, why not?  It was a command of God. It was an everlasting sign of the covenant with God. It was bound on the people of God in exactly the same way as Sabbath keeping.

I don't understand your zeal for Sabbath keeping, but your silence on circumcision.

If "Sunday worship will keep Christians from Eternal Life" they must not be Christians. A Christian has Eternal Life eternally.

No Christian it is who worships Sunday; but an idolater.

But will a Christian worship God on Sunday?

I believe most Christians do.

I also am sure some do not, but in fact pretending to worship God, worship Sunday ... great men, scholars, leaders and misleaders of the People mainly!

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 15:29:21
"Will Sunday worship keep Christians from Eternal Life?" JUST AS SURELY AS SABBATH worship, YES! Most assuredly yes!

Please explain how you square that against Acts 15. The 4 commandments listed do not include the sabbath.

If any man be a worshipper of _God_ ... him He heareth."

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Sep 10, 2012 - 08:57:41

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 15:29:21
"Will Sunday worship keep Christians from Eternal Life?" JUST AS SURELY AS SABBATH worship, YES! Most assuredly yes!

Please explain how you square that against Acts 15. The 4 commandments listed do not include the sabbath.

GE:

"The 4 commandments listed ..."

There are no 'commandments listed' in Acts 15!

Recommendations, yes; like it is not for anyone to teach circumcision.

And prohibitions, yes, of IDOLATROUS AND PAGAN practices.

Then there is the CERTAIN a priori, that "every Sabbath", the Scriptures - God's Word - is read in the Church-world-wide.

QuoteThere are no 'commandments listed' in Acts 15!
Recommendations, yes; like it is not for anyone to teach circumcision.
And prohibitions, yes, of IDOLATROUS AND PAGAN practices.

Prohibitions are negative commandments.  4 of them - count 'em.

QuoteThen there is the CERTAIN a priori, that "every Sabbath", the Scriptures - God's Word - is read in the Church-world-wide.

No, that is not what was said.  Not in the church and not the whole bible.

Act 15:21  "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

It was the Torah [Genesis to Deuteronomy] being read in synagogues.  It was an invitation and suggestion that Gentile beleivers go to Jewish synagogues to learn the Law.

DaveW:

Prohibitions are negative commandments.  4 of them - count 'em.

GE:

Alright; negative commandments.  4 of them - count 'em --- against IDOLATROUS AND PAGAN practices.


GE:

Then there is the CERTAIN a priori, that "every Sabbath", the Scriptures - God's Word - is read in the Church-world-wide.

DaveW:

No, that is not what was said.  Not in the church and not the whole bible.
Act 15:21  "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
It was the Torah [Genesis to Deuteronomy] being read in synagogues.  It was an invitation and suggestion that Gentile beleivers go to Jewish synagogues to learn the Law.

GE:

So? Is the Torah not the Scriptures, God's Word? You say it is not?!
And so, "Moses preached in the synagogues every Sabbath", as "an invitation and suggestion that Gentile believers go to Jewish synagogues to learn the Law" was no opportunity for Christian believers to learn of Christ?
You love it, I see!

And if 'Moses' wasn't the Scriptures, what was?

You hate it, it was, I see!

And it was "Genesis to Deuteronomy" read every Sabbath in the synagogues?

When Jesus read the Scriptures in the synagogue, did He read from "Genesis to Deuteronomy"?  I thought He read from Isaiah on occasion. Luke 4 if I remember correctly. And He said "THIS DAY" --- it was the Sabbath Day --- "is fulfilled in your ears" ... what? The Torah? Or, the Gospel?

You hate it I see!

So carry on in your hate of it ...

There was a cycle of Torah reading - most likely set up by Ezra.   That schedule is still used today in synagogues. The 5 books of Moses were broken down into 54 different sections, with one or two being read each week. That way the ENTIRE Torah would be read and discussed every year.

Before the time of the Maccabees (early 100s bc) the Greek overlords forbade the reading of Torah so the rabbis came up with a schedule of readings from the Prophets that dealt with one or more of the main points in each Torah portion.  This became known as the Haftara portions.  At the end of the Maccabean revolt, (circa 164 bc) the Torah cycle was restored and the Haftara cycle retained. So by the first century ad (NT times) this cycle of readings in the synagogues had been in place almost 2 centuries.

The church is NOT the synagogue. The reading cycle did not include ALL of the prophets, nor did it include the Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, etc.)

If the history lesson bores you, it is important to understand exactly what James was and was not saying.

And no - one will not learn of Christ in the tradtional synagogue.  But apparently James thought it beneficial to understand the Mosaic covenant to get a proper grasp of the New Covenant.

QuoteWhen Jesus read the Scriptures in the synagogue, did He read from "Genesis to Deuteronomy"?  I thought He read from Isaiah on occasion. Luke 4 if I remember correctly. And He said "THIS DAY" --- it was the Sabbath Day --- "is fulfilled in your ears" ... what? The Torah? Or, the Gospel?

He was reading the Haftara portion.  Now the Haftara selections was changed somewhat after the destruction of the temple in 70, possibly to discourage the Gospel. Isa 61.1-2 is not in the current scheme but probably was included in portion Nitzavim or possibly Ki Tavo.  That would put the events of Luke 4 just before the High Holy days of Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur.

What was fulfilled was that specific prophecy.

What exactly do you think I hate?

You are obviously well schooled in Jewry by Jewry. Good. Any knowledge is good for one.

But is useless for or in or to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

ESPECIALLY JEWRY.

Well, were it not for the fact that the GOSPEL IS JEWISH to begin with, I would agree with you.

NO WHERE in the Old  or in the New Testament will you find any Commandment to worship God on any other day Except for the Seventh Day Sabbath. In Acts Paul preached on the Sabbath, the Gentile Believers ask for Paul to preach to them on the next Sabbath and the Sabbath was given as God's Holy Day from the first week of Creation so it's for Mankind, not just the Jews.
Any Pagan practice that a Christian does that goes against God's Word can keep them from worshiping in "Spirt and in Truth" and at the very least will put a wall between that Christian and God because of disobedience.
Going to Church on Sunday might now keep one from the Kingdom of Heaven but we read in Matthew 5:19
"Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
So why go for "least" when you can keep all 10 Commandments and Teach them and be "great".
Give this a listen and maybe it'll help you see things a bit more clearly. Don't dismiss it because it's from Garner Ted Armstrong, proof what he says with your own Bible.
http://www.icgdatabase.org/Audio/MP3/IsSabbathObservanceOptional.mp3

It is believed that the first churches often met on the first day of the week.

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, we gathered with the local believers to share in the Lord's Supper. Paul was preaching to them, and since he was leaving the next day, he kept talking until midnight.


As for Armstrong, he has been desperately wrong about many things in the past, so I give him an extra wide berth.

Acts20:7 "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight."
Looks like they simply came together to have a meal, not to worship God. I love the way folks can take stuff out of context then say they won't listen to Garner Ted Armstrong because he supposedly doesn't speak the truth about the Word of God.
Don't take my word for it, don't even take his, listen to what he has to say then look it up in your own Bible. The Word of God is the ONLY proof of Anything. Not being SDA but having gone to an SDA Church for a couple months it does kind of get on my nerves when they start quoting Ellen White  but then again if what she says lines up with the Word of God it's all fine with me but if she says something that doesn't line up, well, then I just take it with a grain of salt and move on to the next topic.

Of course Sunday worship wont keep us from eternal life and if anyone thinks so they appear to lack a total understanding of what Jesus has done for us and of How Gods sees us. The important thing is that we DO worship Him and not when. This can become an idol for some(as with the sda's) and legalistic issue for others.

All this talk of worship has me confused.  To the best of my knowledge, that commandment doesn't say anything about worship.  It talks about rest.


Jarrod

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Oct 30, 2012 - 11:39:54
All this talk of worship has me confused.  To the best of my knowledge, that commandment doesn't say anything about worship.  It talks about rest.
Jarrod

You know, I was kind of kickin' around that same kind of idea the other day.  I don't know of any place in the Bible where it Commands that we MUST meet as a group someplace in order to Worship God.
I still believe that the Sabbath Day is Holy unto God and the Day of Rest for EVERYONE, Jew, Gentile, even non-believers but as far as going anyplace special on that day I'm not seeing it.
Sure, some will quote the "don't forsake the assembling of yourself together" deal and that's great. Like minded Christians should get together once in a while for a meal or to talk about God but I just don't see an Organized Religious aspect coming out of all of this. Maybe I'm missing something.

Jews are commanded to assemble before God on the Sabbath:

Lev 23.1  The Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
2 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, These are the appointed feasts of the Lord that you shall proclaim as holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts.
3 "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the Lord in all your dwelling places.